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Synthetics, Fixatives, and other crazy ingredients for a HOBBYIST?

post #1 of 21
1/31/13 at 5:29am
Thread Starter 
I've been perusing these forums for years now. I've read a few books, and I finally started making my own stuff!

I have probably 2-dozen EOs and some proper alcohol and glycol, and a small army of bottles, droppers, and other stuff.

First of all, I must say, despite my wife's raised eyebrow (lol), I'm having a blast, and making some pretty cool stuff. Wearable. Unique. Pleasing.



Isn't that the point?

Well I'm starting to realize how much I DON'T know. And while I don't necessarily want to become a pro, but I'm having trouble figuring out and finding these "other" ingredients I'm reading so much about.

First of all, MUSK. I've read ALL the threads (I think), and while I understand I wont be getting my hands on any real musk EVER, the synthetic alternatives seem to only be offered in huge, huge amounts? It seems like I'm stuck with choosing some "musk" fragrance mixed by AromaTherapy Company X.

Then I keep reading about chemicals like:

Vetiveryl Acetate, Javanol, Ethyl maltol, Velvione, Exaltolide, Kephalis, Cedryl Acetate, etc, etc.

But same story: do I have to purchase ONE KG of all of these? I'd much rather have a 4oz bottle! (mixing measurements, yes I know)

So

Is there any good way for a "hacker" like me to a) figure out which ones are worth playing around with, and b) where to buy them?

tia!
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post #2 of 21
1/31/13 at 5:42am
A: There's lots of info on here about which synthetics are most useful for a beginner. Look up Chris Bartlett's Pell Wall Perfumes blog in particular for a good list.

B: "Perfumer's Apprentice", is one of many online stores selling small quantities of synthetic aromachemicals, including musk chemicals. More are listed in the DIY Suppliers thread.

Keep having fun...
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post #3 of 21
1/31/13 at 6:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renegade View Post

A: There's lots of info on here about which synthetics are most useful for a beginner. Look up Chris Bartlett's Pell Wall Perfumes blog in particular for a good list.

B: "Perfumer's Apprentice", is one of many online stores selling small quantities of synthetic aromachemicals, including musk chemicals. More are listed in the DIY Suppliers thread.

Keep having fun...

Thanks for the recommendation - here's the link to the section of the blog where I recommend starting materials for beginners, there is also a section suggesting equipment you'll need and an entire post just about musks.

As you are in the US you should be able to get most things you want from Perfumer's Apprentice, who stock a terrific range, but if you find there is something you are struggling to get hold of I often have spare stock I'm able to sell on in small amounts - just drop me an email to enquiry@pellwall-perfumes.com and I'll help if I can.
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post #4 of 21
1/31/13 at 8:22am
USA Aromachemical Suppliers in small amounts

The Good Scents Company
http://www.thegoodscentscompany.com/pricoffr.html

The Perfumers Apprentice
http://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/

http://www.creatingperfume.com/

International Dealers in Small Qty's

De Hekserij (NL):
http://www.hekserij.nl
Sorry, the above is in dutch, but there's an English version too, but I can't remember it, probably available in the DIY Suppliers thread

Perfumers world (THAI):
http://www.perfumersworld.com/
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post #5 of 21
1/31/13 at 4:33pm
And don't you have some overstocks yourself Paul, of some unusual materials?

I'm fairly sure De Hekserij won't ship to North America - I always forget about The Good Scents Company (who dont ship outside NA) because I can't buy from them myself - ironic considering how often I consult their information pages on materials which are superb.

Happy hunting
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post #6 of 21
1/31/13 at 4:43pm
Thread Starter 
Thank you all so much!

Those are very helpful links. I'm glad there's at least some options for us "small time" mixers.

And Chris, I've enjoyed your posts very much. Thanks for all your help!

PS, for the life of me…*i can't really figure the Good Scent Company site out! That is the WORST UX design I have ever come across :\\

I honestly don't know how you found that price list, but thanks!

- - - Updated - - -

Might this Aromachemical Kit from Perfumers Apprentice be a good purchase?

http://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/p-6632-aromachemical-kit.aspx

My only hesitation is that it seems expensive, for such minuscule amounts.
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post #7 of 21
2/2/13 at 6:32am
Thanks, I'm glad you're finding it useful.

It's worth persisting with TGSC pages because there is a wealth of useful information there once you get to grips with it.

Personally I wouldn't buy the kit, not so much because of the price but because 4ml is really too little of almost anything to be worth having and those tiny vials are also very difficult to handle. On the other hand it's a good selection of materials and you'll undoubtedly spend more getting such a selection in larger amounts - but IMO 30ml / 1oz is the minimum you want of most of the common ingredients. Buying less of very powerful things like ethyl vanillin or synthetic civet could well make sense, but 4ml of Iso E Super or Hedione is useless.
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post #8 of 21
2/2/13 at 11:18am
Yes, I have just made up my lists of available materials.
Over Christmas, I bought 45 Kilos of items, and many smaller qty's of more expensive items.
I also have a large selection of surplus/out of date stock that I call "Well Priced Materials".
All of these materials were purchased because they are not available through any other small qty sellers like Perfumers apprentice, TGSC and Creating Perfume.com, at least Domestically USA...

Since I am disallowed to sell a split, because of my lack of posting and feedback poins in this BN System, anyone interested in amounts must PM me, please include your real email address for the lists to be sent to you.
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post #9 of 21
2/4/13 at 5:16am
Thread Starter 
I actually just ordered pretty much everything on your list, from perfumersapprentice.com. It certainly added up… but I'm very excited to start using them!

Dumb questions:

Do i just add these to my EO blends? I've been blending in Perfumer's Alcohol + glycol. I'm assuming that's okay?

After that, do I just let it sit, and then reevaluate? (like I've been doing w/ the EOs) How long do these take to "meld?"

Also, can these chems just sit out, in my room? Or do they need to be refrigerated?

Thanks again for all your help. I'm sure I will get some powerful insect repellant out of this!

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post #10 of 21
2/4/13 at 5:52am
Splendid, you'll have lots of fun I'm sure.

Yes you can just add them to your EO blends and they will all dissolve in Perfumer's Alcohol (where there are difficulties with particular ingredients I've recommended I've generally mentioned that on my blog - crystalline musks are the main culprits).

When you say glycol do you mean ethylene glycol? If so why are you including it?

Evaluation after a day or two should give you a good indication - typically aroma chemicals don't cause as much change as EO because they are so much simpler, though there are exceptions including methyl anthranilate in particular.

Most don't need refrigeration, but a few do. A few also really need to be diluted in ethanol right away (aliphatic aldehydes for example) to keep them from spoiling. Most will be fine at ordinary room temperature, but if you've bought 1oz sizes from PA they will come in clear glass bottles and it's important you keep them somewhere dark. Also try to keep the bottles as full as possible and open them only when you need to: air and light will accelerate deterioration.

I take it you've arranged a State-wide alert for beekeepers to avoid your area?
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post #11 of 21
2/4/13 at 8:23pm
Thread Starter 
I bought a "Cologne Formulator's Blend" from Snowdrift (RIP), it's denatured, and it has propylene glycol in it. Is that no bueno?

- - - Updated - - -

I bought a "Cologne Formulator's Blend" from Snowdrift (RIP), it's denatured, and it has propylene glycol in it. Is that no bueno?
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post #12 of 21
2/5/13 at 12:13am
That would probably be *DI*-propylene Glycol, or commonly called DPG.

No, DPG and Alcohol work fine together...
But don't count on DPG the make it last longer, it's just another solvent like Alcohol
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post #13 of 21
2/5/13 at 4:27am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pkiler View Post

That would probably be *DI*-propylene Glycol, or commonly called DPG.

No, DPG and Alcohol work fine together...
But don't count on DPG the make it last longer, it's just another solvent like Alcohol

Cool. I just wanted to make sure I didn't have to repurchase alcohol to work.
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post #14 of 21
2/5/13 at 4:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JungleNYC View Post

I bought a "Cologne Formulator's Blend" from Snowdrift (RIP), it's denatured, and it has propylene glycol in it. Is that no bueno?

Propylene glycol (PG sometimes called MPG for mono-propylene glycol) is not the same as di-propylene glycol (DPG). Both are widely used solvents, PG more in flavours than fragrances because it's miscible with water. It is more polar than DPG or ethanol which means it's better for dissolving polar materials like PEA (phenyl ethyl alcohol: a major constituent of rose flower scent often added to rose otto from which it tends to be lost due to being water soluble).

Water is a highly polar solvent.

DPG is much less polar than PG - similar to ethanol in being good for dissolving lots of things as a result of being partly polar, partly non-polar

IPM (isopropyl myristate) is less polar still and better for dissolving some difficult materials with wax or hydrocarbon content such as rose otto or many CO2 extracts.

Perfumer's Alcohol often has PG or IPM or both added to it to improve solubility of a range of materials (and to enable it to be sold to people who don't hold a licence to handle pure denatured ethanol, necessary in some countries).

None of the above would be a concern if they are in your ethanol, ethylene glycol (used with ethanol in anti-freeze) would be - hence my question.
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post #15 of 21
2/5/13 at 8:08am
Oh Chris, You're so smart, I think you're right, and I'm not...
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post #16 of 21
2/7/13 at 6:52pm
Thread Starter 
PS, how do you delete an entire post?

When this site was going all crazy a couple weeks ago, I posted this thread a few times. I'd love to delete the duplicates. Tx!
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post #17 of 21
2/7/13 at 11:22pm
I don't think that you have the authority to delete threads... Duplicate thread reductions are the job of a Moderator.
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post #18 of 21
2/8/13 at 2:54am
You can edit them to say duplicated post.
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post #19 of 21
2/9/13 at 6:14pm
I have so much to learn, time for more reading, i want to stick to oils but the world wants alcohol base
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post #20 of 21
2/10/13 at 11:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridgewater View Post

I have so much to learn, time for more reading, i want to stick to oils but the world wants alcohol base

I work with oils all the time and judging by the recent changes to postage rules, it may be that the perfume world might have to go that way to avoid having transport problems.
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post #21 of 21
2/12/13 at 2:48am
deleted .
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