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Most obvious display of shill bidding I've seen on Ebay.

post #1 of 45
3/3/13 at 12:13pm
Thread Starter 
I know Ebay really doesn't care if their sellers break the law by shill bidding, but this is ridiculous. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cereus-Pour-...item338042918a, http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cereus-Pour-...item33804292ad, http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Cereus-P...item4851f206bb.

3 different auction with the same bidders and one has over 36 retracted bids in 6 months.

And here's another one from the same seller with of course the same bidder http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Cereus-P...item4851f2031f
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post #2 of 45
3/3/13 at 12:22pm
It's a shame.
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post #3 of 45
3/3/13 at 12:24pm
One of the drawbacks of auction sites.
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post #4 of 45
3/3/13 at 1:00pm
A. I don't really see what you are demonstrating. The same people are bidding on different sales of the same fragrance? Why wouldn't they? I bid on the same fragrance in different auctions sometimes, trying to get the best deal.

B. If the buyer only bids the maximum one is willing to pay, and the seller is just trying to bid it up, the seller is less likely to complete a sale, which kinda defeats the purpose of selling.
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post #5 of 45
3/3/13 at 1:49pm
I looked at the links also, and didn't see anything blatant or provable.
But it goes without saying, anywhere you go there are going to be dirtbags trying to hose others.
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post #6 of 45
3/3/13 at 1:50pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by docluv45 View Post

A. I don't really see what you are demonstrating. The same people are bidding on different sales of the same fragrance? Why wouldn't they? I bid on the same fragrance in different auctions sometimes, trying to get the best deal.

B. If the buyer only bids the maximum one is willing to pay, and the seller is just trying to bid it up, the seller is less likely to complete a sale, which kinda defeats the purpose of selling.

It's not the same fragrance. Do a search on Cereus. There's other sellers selling these but these bidders only bid with this particular seller which is what is making it obvious. What makes it more obvious is that they are the exact same 3 bidders and the price is the same on 3 of those 4 auctions. On your point B. Didn't you notice that one of the bidders had 36 retracted bids in 6 months.
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post #7 of 45
3/3/13 at 2:09pm
  • lpp
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@ silentrich - Well, if someone only ever bids on one seller's listings & doesn't win, or they relist item if they do....
& be careful with 'private' listings 'cos u can't even check that.
p.s. They only take action on complaints from people who have been shilled!
Restrict them to 'BIN'
Has been a problem in U.K.
Academic problem here at the moment as we can't ship it!
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post #8 of 45
3/3/13 at 2:21pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lpp View Post

@ silentrich - Well, if someone only ever bids on one seller's listings & doesn't win, or they relist item if they do....
& be careful with 'private' listings 'cos u can't even check that.
p.s. They only take action on complaints from people who have been shilled!
Restrict them to 'BIN'
Has been a problem in U.K.
Academic problem here at the moment as we can't ship it!

Yeah, it's unfortunate and thank you for the warning on the private auctions.
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post #9 of 45
3/3/13 at 2:24pm
  • lpp
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Some are o.k., suggest putting on 'watch' list if really interested,not all are bad.
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post #10 of 45
3/3/13 at 2:24pm
Why even shop on ebay?
I hate it.
You dont even get great(!) deals like people think they do.
Besides, ebay is an evil company
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post #11 of 45
3/3/13 at 3:13pm
I have gotten several great deals on eBay. In fact, in 10 years, I've only had one problematic transaction. I bought a counterfeit CD from someone but got my money back.

If people weren't getting great deals on eBay, I don't believe they would have lasted and flourished like they have.

That one bidder with the 36 retracted bids does look suspicious. I didn't even know you could look for such things. Thanks!
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post #12 of 45
3/3/13 at 3:41pm
Shill bidding doesn't actually hurt anyone. Regardless of how the price is derived, it is still up to the consumer on whether he or she wants to buy it. If the shill price is cheaper than average, it's a better deal. If it's more expensive, no rational person is going to buy it anyway.

Person A starts a bid of Green Irish Tweed $50 and shill bids it up to $150.
Person B starts a bid of Green Irish Tweed for $175.

With the same logic, why don't we ban Person B from eBay for being a gouger too?
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post #13 of 45
3/3/13 at 4:04pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by noirdrakkar View Post

Shill bidding doesn't actually hurt anyone. Regardless of how the price is derived, it is still up to the consumer on whether he or she wants to buy it. If the shill price is cheaper than average, it's a better deal. If it's more expensive, no rational person is going to buy it anyway.

Person A starts a bid of Green Irish Tweed $50 and shill bids it up to $150.
Person B starts a bid of Green Irish Tweed for $175.

With the same logic, why don't we ban Person B from eBay for being a gouger too?

Couldn't disagree with you more and shilling is illegal. It destroys the integrity of the auction system.
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post #14 of 45
3/3/13 at 4:12pm
My love/hate for EBAY...I have gotten great deals...and have gotten fakes. I bet 1/2 the juice I sell on EBAY the first buyer never pays, and I have to go through the hassle of relisting and getting a refund on the fees. I also have seen people bid up one particular sellers merchandise and somehow NEVER win an auction. There are no consequences on EBAY so people cheat. I just got a A*Man Fake from a seller in El Salvador...what a nightmare...she refuses to pay my return shipping...and it is a blatant fake!
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post #15 of 45
3/3/13 at 4:15pm
I never said shilling was permitted by the website's rules.

Please tell me how it's of any consequential difference to a rational consumer.
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post #16 of 45
3/3/13 at 4:22pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by noirdrakkar View Post

I never said shilling was permitted by the website's rules.

Please tell me how it's of any consequential difference to a rational consumer.

Do you like paying $4.00 a gallon for gas? How's that for how shilling can affect a rational customer.
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post #17 of 45
3/3/13 at 4:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by noirdrakkar View Post

Please tell me how it's of any consequential difference to a rational consumer.

Because it's creating a false demand.

The rational consumer could expect to be bound by the concepts and rules pertaining to supply and demand, and if the seller has started an item at a low price (which could be expected to stimulate demand in itself) but proceeds to use shill bidding to artificially inflate the price (irrespective of whether other genuine bidders would have driven the price up themselves*) the rational consumer could view the vendor as manipulating the auction for their own personal benefit.

*In such instances it's important to not speculate on what the market would have done in the absence of this artificial demand.
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post #18 of 45
3/3/13 at 6:19pm
People who think shill bidding is o.k is obv brain-dead.
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post #19 of 45
3/3/13 at 7:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Grifter View Post

People who think shill bidding is o.k is obv brain-dead.

I don't know if I'd go quite that far - in cases of shill bidding (which are already difficult to prove) it's hard to differentiate between:

1) what a buyer would pay for the fragrance (ie: what they're willing to pay); and
2) what a buyer would have paid for the fragrance without the shill bidding having had occurred.

It's certainly a LOT easier to quantify the first (you just need to ask the bidder), and nigh on impossible to quantify the second.

Shill bidding is concerned with the second issue, and I think many people get the issue clouded with the first.
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post #20 of 45
3/3/13 at 7:35pm
Shill bidding is why I don't use ebay.

Puck that. I'll either Buy It Now or pay retail but I won't go into a bid war because I never loose but don't want to overpay.
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post #21 of 45
3/4/13 at 5:10am
  • lpp
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All goes back to ethics in the end
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post #22 of 45
3/4/13 at 5:14am
I just bid in the last seconds. Don't care what happens before that, or after (if I get outbid).
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post #23 of 45
3/4/13 at 5:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by timdoeswell View Post

Because it's creating a false demand.

The rational consumer could expect to be bound by the concepts and rules pertaining to supply and demand, and if the seller has started an item at a low price (which could be expected to stimulate demand in itself) but proceeds to use shill bidding to artificially inflate the price (irrespective of whether other genuine bidders would have driven the price up themselves*) the rational consumer could view the vendor as manipulating the auction for their own personal benefit.

*In such instances it's important to not speculate on what the market would have done in the absence of this artificial demand.

Having an outrageously high price does not increase demand for anything. Any rational consumer would roll their eyes and think "there are people selling it for cheaper on here".
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post #24 of 45
3/4/13 at 5:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Grifter View Post

People who think shill bidding is o.k is obv brain-dead.

Couldn't agree more...BTW LOVE YOUR AVITAR...Go Ravens!
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post #25 of 45
3/4/13 at 5:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Grifter View Post

People who think shill bidding is o.k is obv brain-dead.

Namecalling and ad hominem attacks are often a last resort for people who aren't able to other wise defend their viewpoint.
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post #26 of 45
3/4/13 at 6:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Grifter View Post

People who think shill bidding is o.k is obv brain-dead.

People who think other people's opinions are brain-dead are obv brain-dead.

- - - Updated - - -

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rüssel View Post

I just bid in the last seconds. Don't care what happens before that, or after (if I get outbid).

Yeah, that's my M.O. as well, and I mentally set a price limit that I am not going to surpass.
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post #27 of 45
3/4/13 at 8:54am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by noirdrakkar View Post

Having an outrageously high price does not increase demand for anything. Any rational consumer would roll their eyes and think "there are people selling it for cheaper on here".

Define rational consumer. I take it your leaving out people who don't know a lot about fragrances, people buying gifts, and elderly customers who might not know any better. So what your saying is it's acceptable for those people to get ripped off? Better yet have you ever been ripped off? Wow. That's harsh. Lol... Blame it on the uninformed or less knowledgeable and not the thief.
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post #28 of 45
3/4/13 at 9:37am
I've used eBay over 200 times to buy fragrance. I've never used it to sell anything.

The shilling behavior you identified would never had affected any of my purchases. I simply come to a price I'm comfortable paying and enter it into a auto-bidder snipe mechanism that enters my bidding in the last few seconds. If I am the highest bidder, so be it. If I 'win' it at a price less than what I was willing to go, g-r-e-a-t! If I don't win it, so be it. By definition, shilling is an action designed to dupe people into believing there is a demand for something when there actually isn't. For those who do not have their own idea as to what they're willing to pay for an item... well, I guess enough will rely on what they see in the form of other bids. This is not how I operate as a buyer on eBay. Again, I know what price I'm willing to pay. That is the only aspect that enters into my bidding. What other bidders come up with, whether sincere or insincere, is of no consequence to my bidding behavior.

I, too, am a little curious as to why this bothers the OP. Sure, it's against the rules; if that aspect bothers you enough, then report it. Wondering why the seller(s) just don't use a reserve if they wish to protect against one of their items going too cheap.
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post #29 of 45
3/4/13 at 9:45am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuNezDeBuzier View Post

I've used eBay over 200 times to buy fragrance. I've never used it to sell anything.

The shilling behavior you identified would never had affected any of my purchases. I simply come to a price I'm comfortable paying and enter it into a auto-bidder snipe mechanism that enters my bidding in the last few seconds. If I am the highest bidder, so be it. If I 'win' it at a price less than what I was willing to go, g-r-e-a-t! If I don't win it, so be it. By definition, shilling is an action designed to dupe people into believing there is a demand for something when there actually isn't. For those who do not have their own idea as to what they're willing to pay for an item... well, I guess enough will rely on what they see in the form of other bids. This is not how I operate as a buyer on eBay. Again, I know what price I'm willing to pay. That is the only aspect that enters into my bidding. What other bidders come up with, whether sincere or insincere, is of no consequence to my bidding behavior.

I, too, am a little curious as to why this bothers the OP. Sure, it's against the rules; if that aspect bothers you enough, then report it. Wondering why the seller(s) just don't use a reserve if they wish to protect against one of their items going too cheap.

Because it's theft plain and simple. Whether that be myself, you, my grandmother, someone buying a gift , or santa claus picking up some last minute christmas gifts. Like I said before it ruins the integrity of an auction. If you don't understand that then I don't know what to tell you. Just because things don't directly affect us doesn't mean it doesn't affect someone else. Theft in any form is unacceptable.
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post #30 of 45
3/4/13 at 9:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by silentrich View Post

Define rational consumer. I take it your leaving out people who don't know a lot about fragrances, people buying gifts, and elderly customers who might not know any better. So what your saying is it's acceptable for those people to get ripped off? Better yet have you ever been ripped off? Wow. That's harsh. Lol... Blame it on the uninformed or less knowledgeable and not the thief.

Rich is right. If a seller wants to sell at a predetermined price, the seller has an option: buy it now.

Otherwise, sellers should play by the rules. An auction is an auction. Shill bidding creates an artificial price point -- a FRAUDULENT artificial price point. Sure, the ultimate buyer pays the top dollar that he or she wanted to pay, but more than the "market price." And that means the buyer can't buy other things that he or she would have bought.

And even if it's marginally less objectionable for a luxury good, what about the people that use Ebay to buy used clothes, or everday items that are just a bit cheaper than they are at the store?

Fraud is fraud. That's why shill bidding is a clear a violation of Ebay's TOS.

I still like Ebay, but no longer love it because of this type of behavior.
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post #31 of 45
3/4/13 at 10:01am
  • lpp
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Agree totally, I always have my own personal max. bid for an item, but shilling is manipulating the market.
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post #32 of 45
3/4/13 at 10:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by silentrich View Post

Because it's theft plain and simple. Whether that be myself, you, my grandmother, someone buying a gift , or santa claus picking up some last minute christmas gifts. Like I said before it ruins the integrity of an auction. If you don't understand that then I don't know what to tell you. Just because things don't directly affect us doesn't mean it doesn't affect someone else. Theft in any form is unacceptable.

You're not going to convince me that I should feel taken in any of my eBay purchases. I don't. If I was willing to pay $10 for an item and paid $9.50 instead of $9.00 due to the fact that a ghost bidder had an insincere bid in earlier than mine @ $9.25, you're right in that I'd paid $.50 more than I would have had the ghost bidder not done what he did. However, I look at it differently. I was willing to go to $10 and getting it $.50 cheaper is a win in my book.

Like I said, if it bothers you then you should push eBay for better monitoring and/or stiffer deterring consequences for violations. Why does eBay allow for so many retracted bids? That'd seem like a logical place to start. If a bidder wins, then retracts, maybe they should be allowed to do this once, then that IP address is shut down from eBay involvement.

btw I disagree with your gas analogy. If $4.00 doesn't sit well with me, I simply drive a block or two down the road to another station. If they ALL are at $4.00, it ain't because of rampant shilling.
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post #33 of 45
3/4/13 at 10:20am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuNezDeBuzier View Post

You're not going to convince me that I should feel taken in any of my eBay purchases. I don't. If I was willing to pay $10 for an item and paid $9.50 instead of $9.00 due to the fact that a ghost bidder had an insincere bid in earlier than mine @ $9.25, you're right in that I'd paid $.50 more than I would have had the ghost bidder not done what he did. However, I look at it differently. I was willing to go to $10 and getting it $.50 cheaper is a win in my book.

Like I said, if it bothers you then you should push eBay for better monitoring and/or stiffer deterring consequences for violations. Why does eBay allow for so many retracted bids? That'd seem like a logical place to start. If a bidder wins, then retracts, maybe they should be allowed to do this once, then that IP address is shut down from eBay involvement.

btw I disagree with your gas analogy. If $4.00 doesn't sit well with me, I simply drive a block or two down the road to another station. If they ALL are at $4.00, it ain't because of rampant shilling.

Excellent point! Good luck to you! I understand why you don't agree about the gas analogy since this is your definition of shilling "By definition, shilling is an action designed to dupe people into believing there is a demand for something when there actually isn't." Thanks for clearing that point up for me.
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post #34 of 45
3/4/13 at 12:46pm
Most of the stuff is fake on Ebay anyways.
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post #35 of 45
3/4/13 at 12:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by noirdrakkar View Post

Having an outrageously high price does not increase demand for anything. Any rational consumer would roll their eyes and think "there are people selling it for cheaper on here".

Outrageous prices generated by shill bidding is not what I'm talking about; what if you were to obtain a good (great) price on an item on which, for one reason or another, few other people are bidding? I'm not here to discuss the reasons why nobody else is bidding on this hypothetical auction, so saying something like 'maybe it looked fake' is a facile argument.

Say you have the winning, or even sole bid, on a $250 bottle for which you're willing to pay up to $175. The auction progresses and it's looking like you're going to nab it for $70. The vendor uses shill bidding to bump the price up to $130, which is still significantly below what you're willing to pay, so while you take it for $45 less than you were willing to pay, you still pay $60 over what you'd have in the absence of any shill bidding.

Obviously this is a very simplistic (and unrealistically transparent) example, but it's to demonstrate that you can simultaneously get a good deal AND be stung by shill bidding.
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post #36 of 45
3/4/13 at 1:42pm
Haha. Every time anyone brings this up it always erupts into an argument between those who say shill bidding doesn't matter and those trying to explain in vain why its bad.

- - - Updated - - -

Quote:
Originally Posted by timdoeswell View Post

Outrageous prices generated by shill bidding is not what I'm talking about; what if you were to obtain a good (great) price on an item on which, for one reason or another, few other people are bidding? I'm not here to discuss the reasons why nobody else is bidding on this hypothetical auction, so saying something like 'maybe it looked fake' is a facile argument.

Say you have the winning, or even sole bid, on a $250 bottle for which you're willing to pay up to $175. The auction progresses and it's looking like you're going to nab it for $70. The vendor uses shill bidding to bump the price up to $130, which is still significantly below what you're willing to pay, so while you take it for $45 less than you were willing to pay, you still pay $60 over what you'd have in the absence of any shill bidding.

Obviously this is a very simplistic (and unrealistically transparent) example, but it's to demonstrate that you can simultaneously get a good deal AND be stung by shill bidding.

Some people can only think in black and white so they are not going to understand this reasoning. ....."You said you were willing to pay $170 so you should have no problem if a fake bid makes you pay the full amount that you were willing to pay" .......
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post #37 of 45
3/4/13 at 1:59pm
I am astonished.

Some folks have a huge problem with shilling on eBay. Fine, don't use eBay. There are other market places available. If eBay or any other marketplace has lost its integrity with you, don't use it. Noboby is forcing it upon you. eBay will lose your business. For that reason, eBay has a vested interested in policing for shilling. It either does an acceptable or unacceptable job of it. Fine. You be the consumer and let your wallet move to the marketplace that has your confidence. There's no great mystery.

However... for some of the same folks to have such a 'gripper' regarding shilling on eBay AND to not have any compunctions whatsoever about lying to the local post office each and every time they enter an unlabelled hazardous material into the mail stream... well that's simply too much kettle/pot b.s. for me; I'm outta this thread!
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post #38 of 45
3/4/13 at 3:20pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuNezDeBuzier View Post

I am astonished.

Some folks have a huge problem with shilling on eBay. Fine, don't use eBay. There are other market places available. If eBay or any other marketplace has lost its integrity with you, don't use it. Noboby is forcing it upon you. eBay will lose your business. For that reason, eBay has a vested interested in policing for shilling. It either does an acceptable or unacceptable job of it. Fine. You be the consumer and let your wallet move to the marketplace that has your confidence. There's no great mystery.

However... for some of the same folks to have such a 'gripper' regarding shilling on eBay AND to not have any compunctions whatsoever about lying to the local post office each and every time they enter an unlabelled hazardous material into the mail stream... well that's simply too much kettle/pot b.s. for me; I'm outta this thread!

Yeah, I think you probably need to go back and look at all the rules and regulations you quoted in that other thread or threads and question why you think the rules and regulations (laws) don't apply to this matter. If you think telling a white lie is comparable to taking someone's money under false pretenses (Fraud/Theft) is the same then I got nothing for ya.
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post #39 of 45
3/4/13 at 6:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuNezDeBuzier View Post

I am astonished.

Some folks have a huge problem with shilling on eBay. Fine, don't use eBay. There are other market places available. If eBay or any other marketplace has lost its integrity with you, don't use it. Noboby is forcing it upon you. eBay will lose your business. For that reason, eBay has a vested interested in policing for shilling. It either does an acceptable or unacceptable job of it. Fine. You be the consumer and let your wallet move to the marketplace that has your confidence. There's no great mystery.

However... for some of the same folks to have such a 'gripper' regarding shilling on eBay AND to not have any compunctions whatsoever about lying to the local post office each and every time they enter an unlabelled hazardous material into the mail stream... well that's simply too much kettle/pot b.s. for me; I'm outta this thread!

I suppose you're referring to silentrich's posts over in the "new USPS policies" thread. It's no secret that I disagree with his position there (as our dueling posts attest), but agree with him completely here.

To me, saying "if you don't like shill bidding don't use Ebay" is kind of silly. 99% of Ebay auctions don't have shills. Besides, shills are absolutely against Ebay's terms of service. I'd say the problem is not with Ebay's official policy, but in the failure to diligently enforce it. And I'd suspect that the failure is more a result of Ebay's pretty pronounced change over the past few years from a primarily-auction site to a primarily-buy-it-now site.

I'm not going to argue keep arguing economics. Just realize that for some people (like me), the primary problem isn't that the final price is a few bucks more than it would otherwise be; the problem is that the price was reached by the seller's fraudulent conduct. And I do not want to give my money to a seller who sought from the beginning to defraud me.

But hey, I'm a doofus who won't even lie to the post office!
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post #40 of 45
3/5/13 at 2:08am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by barclaydetolly View Post

I suppose you're referring to silentrich's posts over in the "new USPS policies" thread. It's no secret that I disagree with his position there (as our dueling posts attest), but agree with him completely here.

To me, saying "if you don't like shill bidding don't use Ebay" is kind of silly. 99% of Ebay auctions don't have shills. Besides, shills are absolutely against Ebay's terms of service. I'd say the problem is not with Ebay's official policy, but in the failure to diligently enforce it. And I'd suspect that the failure is more a result of Ebay's pretty pronounced change over the past few years from a primarily-auction site to a primarily-buy-it-now site.

I'm not going to argue keep arguing economics. Just realize that for some people (like me), the primary problem isn't that the final price is a few bucks more than it would otherwise be; the problem is that the price was reached by the seller's fraudulent conduct. And I do not want to give my money to a seller who sought from the beginning to defraud me.

But hey, I'm a doofus who won't even lie to the post office!

No way your not even close to being a doofus. This takes the cake. http://money.msn.com/now/post.aspx?p...3-2e249c76d509. I don't know which is dumber, the lazy supplier who didn't want to get in his car and drive the 7 pounds of weed to the drug dealers house or Fed Ex giving the drug dealer the woman's address after they knew drugs were in the package.
Completely agree with your post. Think I'm going to avoid threads with any moral implications involved. So just as a note to myself would be things not to discuss on basenotes: Anything involving sexual identity, number of sprays, anything involving Aventus, the USPS, and now Ebay shilling. I'm sure there's more.
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post #41 of 45
3/5/13 at 2:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by noirdrakkar View Post

Shill bidding doesn't actually hurt anyone.

Wow...
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post #42 of 45
3/5/13 at 3:08am
When I buy on ebay I always use Buy it Now and buy from a few trusted sellers with whom I've previously dealt. I haven't bothered with the hassle of auctions in years.
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post #43 of 45
3/5/13 at 3:42am
First, blanket statements like "90% of fragrances sold on EBAY are fake" are over-generalization. The vast majority are genuine, sold by fellow BN'ers who don't want the stuff anymore, or by "out-of-your-home" small businesses. I have gotten MANY great deals both new and used.
Second, In his book "Fake: Forgery, Lies, & eBay," Kenneth Walton describes how he and his cohorts placed shill bids on hundreds of eBay auctions over the course of a year. Walton and his associates were charged and convicted of fraud by the United States Attorney for their eBay shill bidding
I have seen shill bidding work best when 2 people are frantically bidding at the last 5min. The "competitive edge" causes SOME people to bid more than they perhaps would have if they would have thought it through.
Just because you may be "too smart" to be ripped off on EBAY doesn't make it right. I am too smart to be conned by door-to-door con artists, but the elderly may not be...does that make it right?
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post #44 of 45
3/5/13 at 7:14am
  • lpp
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@silentrich - when you've made your list suggest u post it as new thread....
joking
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post #45 of 45
3/5/13 at 7:47am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lpp View Post

@silentrich - when you've made you list suggest u post it as new thread....
joking

Oh my goodness no.......next time I'm going to let someone else light the fuse. I like to keep things simple...Lol....
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