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  1. #1

    Default natural vs artificial musk

    which one should I use, will natural musk last longer than artificial in terms of the oils eventually going bad in the composition, what are the other advantages / disadvantages

  2. #2

    Default Re: natural vs artificial musk

    will natural musk last longer than artificial in terms of the oils eventually going bad in the composition, what are the other advantages / disadvantages
    I guess I would have to say that the biggest disadvantage of natural musk is that it is unobtainable.
    All these moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain.

  3. #3

    Default Re: natural vs artificial musk

    Quote Originally Posted by dcampen
    will natural musk last longer than artificial in terms of the oils eventually going bad in the composition, what are the other advantages / disadvantages
    I guess I would have to say that the biggest disadvantage of natural musk is that it is unobtainable.
    not true I have a supplier and I can also sell it quite expensive... but i like quality

  4. #4

    Default Re: natural vs artificial musk

    I have a supplier and I can also sell it quite expensive... but i like quality
    What country are you and the supplier in? To import to the US, if it is possible, one would need an import permit. Musk, unlike ambergris, is considered to be a "part of an endangered species".

    Are these whole musk pods or tincture?
    All these moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain.

  5. #5

    Default Re: natural vs artificial musk

    whole musk pods, I was unaware of its illegality in the US, I am not from there. perhaps it is illegal where I am as well I should look into that

  6. #6

    Default Re: natural vs artificial musk

    I was unaware of its illegality in the US, I am not from there.
    It is a grey area so there may be some places where it can be legitimately traded. Some populations of musk deer are listed as "endangered" there may be other populations that are not.
    All these moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain.

  7. #7

    Default Re: natural vs artificial musk

    Synthetic musk might last longer. But if you want to go natural, a good natural oil substitute is musk ambrette...many natural oil companies sell it online.

  8. #8

    Default Re: natural vs artificial musk

    I think it depends on the type of frag you are trying to make. For ex. a synthetic might be best if you are doing a citrus, ligth floral or light woods scent with a light musk on the base, it might help it linger a bit longer. If you are making an oriental or a spicy frag, it's best a natural one, because it will give it a rounder effect and a sexier one. The quality of the musk you obtain has to be good for both synthetic and natural types cause muks are pretty moody and can go bad. It really depends on the different components on the frag and what smells best to you. just try and try.

  9. #9

    Default Re: natural vs artificial musk

    Quote Originally Posted by Spicemeister
    Synthetic musk might last longer. But if you want to go natural, a good natural oil substitute is musk ambrette...many natural oil companies sell it online.
    It's really not a good substitute. The musk lactone component in ambrette seed is present in small amounts.. more than sufficient if you wanted to make a single-note ambrette perfume, but not enough to use as a substitute for pure musk in a blend.

  10. #10

    Default Re: natural vs artificial musk

    Quote Originally Posted by dcampen
    To import to the US, if it is possible, one would need an import permit.

    On October 24, 2005, dcampen stated in the thread regarding 'Ambergris Sources / Legality':
    You can get around duties for small things if the sender will list on the customs form as "gift" or "sample".
    So. Who's advice are you going to take? * dcampen's or dcampen's?

    You may also want to check how musk is obtained.

  11. #11

    Default Re: natural vs artificial musk

    So. Who's advice are you going to take? dcampen's or dcampen's?
    Both statements were correct and relevant in the context in which they were made.
    All these moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain.

  12. #12

    Default Re: natural vs artificial musk

    Quote Originally Posted by Bottoni
    [quote author=dcampen link=1142844746/0#3 date=1143092691]To import to the US, if it is possible, one would need an import permit.

    On October 24, 2005, dcampen stated in the thread regarding 'Ambergris Sources / Legality':
    You can get around duties for small things if the sender will list on the customs form as "gift" or "sample".
    So. Who's advice are you going to take? * dcampen's or dcampen's?

    You may also want to check how musk is obtained.[/quote]

    I agree with this part. I'm strictly a consumer of frags rather than a perfumer myself, but the cruelty-factor would be enough for me to forego the added "quality" of a natural musk.

  13. #13

    Default Re: natural vs artificial musk

    but the cruelty-factor would be enough for me to forego the added "quality" of a natural musk.
    What cruelty factor? Are you a vegetarian?
    All these moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: natural vs artificial musk

    As a perfumer I agree with the animal cruelty factor. I would never use natural musk, civet or castoreum. There are such good synthetics. In fact, chemistry has given us a huge variety of synthetic musks all with different characteristics that we don't need the natural. Natural musk has a bit of a fecal note to it, which isn't always bad for orientals, but that can be added with other ingredients, if desired.

    Also, I agree with the writer who said that ambrette seed oil or absolute is an inferior ingredient, although it is the only plant musk available to the "natrual" crowd. It has a large lactone ring which is musky, but the extract is overshadowed by a lot of fatty acids and fats that can get rancid. It's just a lousy musk. In my opinion the nicest musks are the large ring ketones such as muscenone, muscone, and a slew of others. Good large ring lactone musks are Ambrettolide, Exaltolide, pentadecalactone, and similar. VERY common is Galaxolide, which is a totally different structure known as an isochroman musk. It's cheap, but smells good and lasts. Then there are the nitromusks, which are inimitible, very luxurious and voluminous, but are now restricted to .7% of the oil part of a frag. This is one reason why some older frags are no longer on the market. A crying shame, as it's never been proven that the nitros cause any damage to life forms, only that they don't break down easily, but neither does Galaxolide and it's NOT restricted. Oh, that will probably get restricted, too, one of these days. Go figure.

    Mike
    MICHAEL STORER fine niche perfumery for the individualist
    www.michaelstorer.com

  15. #15

    Default Re: natural vs artificial musk

    Quote Originally Posted by mastorer
    Also, I agree with the writer who said that ambrette seed oil or absolute is an inferior ingredient, although it is the only plant musk available to the "natrual" crowd. It has a large lactone ring which is musky, but the extract is overshadowed by a lot of fatty acids and fats that can get rancid. It's just a lousy musk.
    Well, there's also angelica root oil.. but that has an even smaller proportion of musk lactone than ambrette seed oil and is basically useless as a musk substitute (whereas ambrette seed is slightly useful, if you don't mind having it as a note).

    There are also various oils that don't have the same effect on a blend as musk, but are somewhat animalic: costus root, cepes, anything with indoles (jasmine sambac, anyone?), and probably a few others I'm forgetting. Labdanum can have kind of an animal funk sometimes, though I associate that particular smell more with memories of certain tree resins. Natural perfumers who are unable to acquire deer musk, castoreum, civet, or ambergris, or who are unwilling to use them, have to make do with these "pseudomusks".

  16. #16

    Default Re: natural vs artificial musk

    Galaxolide seems to be the "standard" musk these days and you can use it in high proportions.

    Is ambrettolide a more powerful musk?

  17. #17

    Default Re: natural vs artificial musk

    While I don't use it with any regularity--I don't want to contribute to the death of a species--I did obtain a small amount of "red musk" from India. The stuff may be the best thing I have ever smelled. Alas, that we can't use it. But I'm anosmic to so many musks (including nitro musks) that nothing comes through, even muscone, like the natural. If I had the choice, I would use natural musk for everything. (True, some grades have a fecal note, in my red musk I notice none of that.)

  18. #18

    Default Re: natural vs artificial musk

    Galaxolide is restricted, at least in Europe. It is regarded as damaging to the environment. There is nothing, absolutely nothing that can compare to genuine Musk Tincture. One half of me regrets that it is now unobtainable, the other half of me welcomes this. Musk tincture used to make my toes curl when I smelled it, it is my favourite smell. The nearest I have smelled to it is MKK, and that has been changed recently.
    Last edited by David Ruskin; 15th June 2012 at 07:32 PM.

  19. #19

    Default Re: natural vs artificial musk

    Oh and by the way, Musk Ambrette was banned over thirty years ago ( in Europe and I think America) resulting in an irreversible change in the formulations of many fragrances including Brut and Aramis. Musk Xylene is now labelled as a potential carcinogen and Musk Ketone is severely restricted. It is a great shame but nitromusks can no longer be used in European fragrances.

  20. #20

    Default Re: natural vs artificial musk

    I'm always confused about whether Musk Ambrette is the same as Ambrettolide...

  21. #21

    Default Re: natural vs artificial musk

    Since I'm anosmic to most musk, I'm trying to emulate the smell of natural musk as best I can. One musk I can smell is Cashmeran. It of course doesn't smell like the real thing, but there's a dry element that reminds me of musk. I don't really smell nitro musks (I don't care about regulations since I'm not selling the stuff) and the polycyclics have only a vague sweetness. Does anybody know any other musks that might work? I've sniffed ambrettolide and ambrette seed but they don't really give me much of a musk smell.

  22. #22

    Default Re: natural vs artificial musk

    Quote Originally Posted by James Peterson View Post
    Since I'm anosmic to most musk, I'm trying to emulate the smell of natural musk as best I can. One musk I can smell is Cashmeran. It of course doesn't smell like the real thing, but there's a dry element that reminds me of musk. I don't really smell nitro musks (I don't care about regulations since I'm not selling the stuff) and the polycyclics have only a vague sweetness. Does anybody know any other musks that might work? I've sniffed ambrettolide and ambrette seed but they don't really give me much of a musk smell.
    There are other macro musks, like muscone, which is supposedly the same compound found in natural musk. But ambretrolide is also a macro musk, so you may be anosmic to other macro musks as well.

  23. #23

    Default Re: natural vs artificial musk

    Firstly Musk Ambrette is NOT the same as Ambrettolide; although both are named after Ambrette Seed oil. I have never found Ambrette seed oil to be of any use whatever, and it is very expensive. Other perfumers I know love it. What can I say?

    The whole topic of Musk is quite complex, even the word means different things to different people. To me Musk means the real Musk tincture, a complex mixture of chemicals which (to me) smell divine. It is animalic, but not faecal; sweaty in a good way. If you have ever visited a zoo and gone into the antelope enclosure, the smell is similar to Musk tincture. When used, Musk tincture was very expensive, and a great deal of work was done in an attempt to duplicate the smell.

    Many people are anosmic to the various chemicals now called musks. It may be you can only be aware of their effect in a fragrance. There are four types of chemical musks. The oldest, cheapest (and best) are called Nitromusks. The molecule contains one or more nitrogen atoms. Musk Ambrette and Musk Xylene are nitromusks. They are characterised by a powdery, animalic odour, and were very useful in a wide range of fragrances (from time fragrances down to household). Musk Ambrette was banned some time ago, and Musk Xylene was banned last year. Galaxolide is an example of a Polycyclic musk, which means its molecular structure consists of two interlinked rings. Polycyclic musks don't, to me, smell of musk. They tend to be quite sweet and fruity, having a thick and gloomy smell. The best example of use is Bodyshop's White Musk. Polycyclics have been under a cloud for some time as they biodegrade very slowly, and as hundreds of tons were being washed away every year (masses of polycyclics used in detergents and Fabric Conditioners) this was thought to be a bad thing. Macrocyclic musks are so called because their molecular structure consists of a big ring. Difficult to make, they tend to be quite expensive, not much use in household or fabric care perfumery. used a lot in fine fragrances. The most recent type of musks are the Alicyclic musks. They don't have a ring structure, are biodegradable but are very expensive. Romandolide is an example.

    James, if you are anosmic to most musk chemicals, I would have a look at Costus oil (banned or restricted, I think) or a synthetic Costus such as Costus Oliffac. They have the sweaty, wet dog smell of Musk tincture.

    Hope the above was not too long, and I hope it has answered some questions.

  24. #24

    Default Re: natural vs artificial musk

    Hi David, Thank you for your long response to my anosmia problem I'm somewhat reassured when you say that "you can only e aware of their effect in a fragrance." I'm hoping that as I begin to use them, I'll notice this effect.

  25. #25

    Default Re: natural vs artificial musk

    hello david,

    i've always been intrigued by musk tincture, and have never been able to smell it. you description of it obviously adds to this.

    it's unfortunate that mkk was reformulated. i think i will go to the zoo someday to smell the antelopes. :) i haven't been there for ages, since i was a kid i think, always found it a bit of a depressing place; especially those big cats in their little cages, so obviously frustrated and bored out of their skulls.

    your remark about costus oil fascinates me, too. i did ask janmeut from hekserij about it some years ago, he can't get it. i will surely try to obtain it again now. are there any other materials? what musks would you use for a sort of pixelated musk tincture accord? my guess would be muscone/muscenone and maybe pentadecanolide (i remember reading that musk deer preferred this one of all the synthetic musks). have you ever attempted to make a musk tincture accord yourself?

  26. #26

    Default Re: natural vs artificial musk

    I've never tried to duplicate Musk tincture, always used a commercially available base from another fragrance house. These were usually based on Nitromusks ( Ketone and Xylene), now of course as these have fallen out of favour these bases have been reformulated or withdrawn. By the way, it is only my opinion about MKK; I'm sure that my most recent bottle is not as "musky" as previous samples. I have a very small sample from Perfumer's court which I bought before I took the plunge, and comparing that with the latest sample it seems that there is a nitromusk missing.

    I agree with you about the zoo, gido. I was taken when a child and upon smelling musk pods for the first time (many years later) had a Proustian moment.

    If you want to try and make a musk base then definitely start with Muscone, and if possible Musk Ketone. Costus seems to be available, I just Googled the word and came up with a few place to get it. Safer to use the oliffac, although that has recently been reformulated (nitromusk again?). I'll get back to you after I've had a think.

  27. #27

    Default Re: natural vs artificial musk

    The Musk bases I used most often were called Tonquitone, and Shangralide. The latter was based on Galaxolide. You need to balance the sweetness with the animalic sweatiness, so maybe some Indole and Skatole too. Also, there is another side of sweaty which may be achieved by using such chemicals as Aldron, and Ambrocenide. Good luck!

    James, not everyone is anosmic to musk chemicals, and those who are not can smell them on smelling strips. For those who are, it is often possible to detect their presence in a fragrance. I have often experienced this when using Benzyl Salycilate; on its own I can barely smell it, but in a fragrance I KNOW it is there. Why not try experimenting? Take a blend you have made, and add some musk material that you cannot smell. Then compare the sample with the musk with the sample without, from top note down to base note. You may well surprise yourself.
    Last edited by David Ruskin; 18th June 2012 at 09:53 AM.

  28. #28

    Default Re: natural vs artificial musk

    I'm going to try making a musk "complex," and, as per your advice, try my fragrances with and without.

  29. #29

    Default Re: natural vs artificial musk

    I would be very interested to hear the results.

  30. #30

    Default Re: natural vs artificial musk

    thank you, david. i will think this over.

    would musk ketone, muscone, indole/skatole, aldron and costus be enough to give a convincing (if pixelated) musk tonkin impression? in other words, are all the major aspects and the important details covered? it would be interesting to compose with these materials, knowing to be on the musk deer trail, even if i have never smelled the real thing. i always wanted a true animalic musk without using other animalic products like ambergris or castoreum bases.

    and about costus, i looked up arctander and he noted that there is a lot of shady things going on with costus oil in particular. is this still true? i imagine things have changed, the demand must have plumbed like a bar of lead. do you know of any supplier of this material that stocks a particular good oil?

    and are you familiar with animalid? that's the base they offer at the perfumers apprentice. strangely, tgsc does not recognise this name. i will aks janmeut about the bases you have mentioned. he does not offer them on the hekserij site but maybe he can get some, i think would make a interesting article for him to sell anyway.

    cheers!

  31. #31

    Default Re: natural vs artificial musk

    I read somewhere that natural musk should be matured with something alkaline such as "potash" or "soda," (potassium and sodium hydroxides?) to help it mature. Has anyone ever heard this?

  32. #32

    Default Re: natural vs artificial musk

    yes, arctander wrote,
    Tincture of Musk: 3% musk in a 90% ethyl
    alcohol. Alkali and other additives are often used
    during the maceration. To be aged for not less
    than 6 months before filtration.

  33. #33

    Default Re: natural vs artificial musk

    Re: costus, I have an oil from Oshadhi and a C02 from WLA, neither of which dissolve fully in alcohol. I don't know what the problem is. Odour-wise the C02 is more refined with more of an orris feel. The synthetic Costausol is an even cleaner scent, and even more orris like, maybe a bit coconut-y. There's another one called Costaulon that is apparently stronger - not available at TPC. I suppose there is kind of a musky feel to them. Fatty is what really came to mind, the Oshadhi oil was very unpleasant, kind of like burnt oily fish skin. I can't confirm the "wet dog" thing - you may say I haven't lived, but it's honestly not a smell I'm familiar with.

    Gido, are you aware that you can buy real musk tincture online now? Just Google it! The guy is (or was, not sure if there's any left) doing a special offer on it recently. I was able to get a 1ml sample of Tonquin musk tincture from him last year.

    The "animalid" stuff from TPC is miles off a convincing musk tincture - that is much more like ambrette. You would be on the right track with muscone, but initially what you smell is very animalic, and with a touch of ammonia. Actually it's more than that, but really hard to describe. It's fascinating to smell the actual "muscone" effect in the drydown - so familiar and "perfumey", and to think that it's a natural, animal product!

    The thing is, we are so familiar with musks these days in functional products and the like that I think maybe we kind of tune them out to a certain extent. I can only imagine what it was like for people in the past to smell musk for the first time, not having been bombarded with it their whole lives.

  34. #34

    Default Re: natural vs artificial musk

    david,

    is TONQUITONE PCMF DEPR 1206, IFF the one you were talking about? janmeut can get this, but only a whole kilo at 285 euro. he also wrote that SHANGRALIDE OLIFFAC 05 is discontinued, they now sell a product called OLIFFAC 1010 (both iff). are you familiar with this latest version, is it good? it's apparently less expensive than tonquitone, but i have most likely have to order 5 kilos, or more.

    btw. if there's anyone interested in a split, please contact me.

  35. #35

    Default Re: natural vs artificial musk

    renegade,

    thanks for the write-up.

    i think that ammonia thing is included in the odor profile of real musk tincture, is that right?

    if you want to experience wet dog, just go to a public park on a warm day, and find a spot where people let their dogs swim. you could even take a little treat to attact them, and have a good whiff while you pet the animal. it's a very peculiar odor, one that surely enough will stick in your memory.

    i am aware that musk pods/grains/tinctures and so on are offered for sale online, but i am not so sure whether it's the real thing or not. it seems a huge gamble with very little chance; and then, how would i discern the real thing if i don't know it to start with?

  36. #36

    Default Re: natural vs artificial musk

    Arctander mentions a "slightly amine-like" odour which I'm sure is something do with ammonia.

    As for whether it's the real thing or not, most of us can only use our own judgement and compare it to the literature. The guy I got the sample from seems very reputable - apparently he used to be the chemist for the company in NZ that sells Ambergris (I have his ambergris absolute too), and he seems well known among the Natural Perfumers community, for what that's worth. I think there's an old post on one of the Yahoo groups explaining how he has a permit or something, and how in some areas the deer are making a real comeback...

  37. #37

    Default Re: natural vs artificial musk

    Costus, to me, smells of wet dog, never like fish; and I haven't smelled "real" Costus oil in years. Only used the Oliffac, which I believe has been reformulated (to remove Nitromusks and reduce Oakmoss?).

    gido, have no idea if the chemicals you mention would give a close approximation to Musk tincture; if you have them to hand have a go. There is a sour, sweaty aspect to real Musk; so maybe you would need some Butyric or iso Valeric acid there as well. Not too much though!

    Tonquitone PCMF DEPR is a reformulated Tonquitone which contain no DEP and is PolyCyclicMusk free. So it will contain Macrocyclic musk as a base. I'm afraid I am not familiar with this reformulation. Wasn't aware about Shangralide being discontinued. Shangralide used to be based on Galaxolide (a PCM), maybe Oliffac 1010 is a Shangralide sans PCM; sorry I haven't ever smelled it. I'm surprised that they won't send you a small smelling sample to try it out.

    Other animalic notes you should get to know are Phenyl Acetic acid (some describe this as honey, others like,pee). para Cresyl Acetate and para Cresyl Phenylacetate ( a bit like horse pee and poo). Amongst the new musks Cosmone has the powdery animalic feel of a Nitromusk, but isn't.

    Sorry that I cannot be of more help, and good luck.

  38. #38

    Default Re: natural vs artificial musk

    To be clear, I don't think costus smells like fish per se, one of the samples just reminded me of that burnt fatty smell of overdone fish skin like salmon. I think Arctander says something about "fatty acids" so maybe I'm not mad!

  39. #39

    Default Re: natural vs artificial musk

    Be careful with butyric acid. I was in a lab when I transferred a small amount from a large bottle into a smaller container. I worked under a hood, but the janitor still showed up with his bag of sawdust...

  40. #40

    Default Re: natural vs artificial musk

    Butyric Acid is very strong; use a 1.0% solution (even 0.1%). I just think that a hint of it would fit into the general natural musk smell.

  41. #41

    Default Re: natural vs artificial musk

    My musk guy sent me a tiny piece of aluminum foil with this brown smudge on one side. It turns out it is pure musk. It has a heavenly aroma and doesn't seem to be fading. It's a different aroma than tincture, not better, just somehow more primal.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Does anyone know what the musk deer situation is? I can't justify buying musk if the deer are endangered, but if they're sustainable, that's something different...

  42. #42

    Default Re: natural vs artificial musk

    As far as I am aware Musk Deer cannot be farmed, so are not "sustainable". I think it is illegal to use Musk Tincture. It is still used in Chinese medicine, but it seems to be completely unjustifiable to use it in Perfumery. In a way that is a shame as it does smell divine. And by the way James, your sample will not fade for years; if it is the real stuff.

  43. #43

    Default Re: natural vs artificial musk

    This is actually a rather complex question that Iíve written about fairly extensively on Basenotes before. I should probably pull all the information together into a blog post but time presses as ever . . .

    Anyway the summary position is this: Musk Deer have been farmed in China since 1952 but farming has not been terribly successful and only a tiny proportion of natural musk that is consumed in the world is produced that way, almost all of it in China itself where it is used in traditional Chinese medicine more than as a fragrance material. There are a few Ďfarmsí in other parts of the world but most amount to little more than a handful of animals in captivity, often in very poor conditions indeed with very high mortality rates. Musk is produced only by male deer and they form only a small percentage of the population - most animals in a sustainable herd will be female.

    Musk is harvested (really hunted is a better word, although technically it is possible to harvest without killing the animal in practice thatís rare) mainly in the Russian Federation and there are quotas set under the CITES regulations for the numbers to be Ďculledí. Most real tonkin musk now on the market is from these sources, though much of what purports to be real musk isnít real at all - even more than most expensive natural materials deer musk is faked and adulterated extensively.

    There are 16 species of Musk Deer from which the material can be extracted and all of them are endangered to one degree or another, most seriously threatened. CITES does not forbid trade in musk and although I have seen many, many claims that real musk is now illegal I have yet to see a citation to evidence that, despite challenging people to produce such evidence frequently: it may be illegal in some countries, but it isnít banned for international trade in the way that many products of endangered species are (such as tiger products, ivory or rhino horn for example). There is a good argument that it should be though.

    There are moral questions to be considered with respect to synthetic musks too, but in my opinion the weight of evidence in this case is firmly in favour of the synthetic alternatives over the natural product. Those who argue that synthetic musks are dangerous to humans or the environment are usually forgetting that there are many, many synthetic musks and they donít all have the same issues - select with care and you can have a great musk scent and a clear conscience.
    ďA person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  44. #44

    Default Re: natural vs artificial musk

    Musk used in Chinese medicine nowadays is synthetic as well. I am fluent in Chinese and almost all ingredient lists I've seen read "synthetic musk". I'm sure some millionaires can get real musk in their "private blend" Chinese medicine, just like they can get rhino horns when most recipes calling for rhino horns have been replaced with bull horns.

  45. #45

    Default Re: natural vs artificial musk

    I have some costus and it smells like sweaty wet plants to me, but I would imagine adding a chocolate nuance to it may give something of a musk feeling. Maybe with some castoreum for a leathery furry skin feeling. I will have a go for this thread and see what happens. I have some real musk tincture to compare to.

  46. #46

    Default Re: natural vs artificial musk

    Quote Originally Posted by mumsy View Post
    I have some costus and it smells like sweaty wet plants to me, but I would imagine adding a chocolate nuance to it may give something of a musk feeling. Maybe with some castoreum for a leathery furry skin feeling. I will have a go for this thread and see what happens. I have some real musk tincture to compare to.
    I realise many people won't be troubled by it, but for the benefit of those who want to sell their creations, keep in mind that costus root oil is prohibited by IFRA completely.
    ďA person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  47. #47

    Default Re: natural vs artificial musk

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Bartlett View Post
    This is actually a rather complex question that I’ve written about fairly extensively on Basenotes before. I should probably pull all the information together into a blog post but time presses as ever . . .

    Anyway the summary position is this: Musk Deer have been farmed in China since 1952 but farming has not been terribly successful and only a tiny proportion of natural musk that is consumed in the world is produced that way, almost all of it in China itself where it is used in traditional Chinese medicine more than as a fragrance material. There are a few ‘farms’ in other parts of the world but most amount to little more than a handful of animals in captivity, often in very poor conditions indeed with very high mortality rates. Musk is produced only by male deer and they form only a small percentage of the population - most animals in a sustainable herd will be female.

    Musk is harvested (really hunted is a better word, although technically it is possible to harvest without killing the animal in practice that’s rare) mainly in the Russian Federation and there are quotas set under the CITES regulations for the numbers to be ‘culled’. Most real tonkin musk now on the market is from these sources, though much of what purports to be real musk isn’t real at all - even more than most expensive natural materials deer musk is faked and adulterated extensively.

    There are 16 species of Musk Deer from which the material can be extracted and all of them are endangered to one degree or another, most seriously threatened. CITES does not forbid trade in musk and although I have seen many, many claims that real musk is now illegal I have yet to see a citation to evidence that, despite challenging people to produce such evidence frequently: it may be illegal in some countries, but it isn’t banned for international trade in the way that many products of endangered species are (such as tiger products, ivory or rhino horn for example). There is a good argument that it should be though.

    There are moral questions to be considered with respect to synthetic musks too, but in my opinion the weight of evidence in this case is firmly in favour of the synthetic alternatives over the natural product. Those who argue that synthetic musks are dangerous to humans or the environment are usually forgetting that there are many, many synthetic musks and they don’t all have the same issues - select with care and you can have a great musk scent and a clear conscience.
    Well stated as usual Chris.
    Zanshin

  48. #48

    Default Re: natural vs artificial musk

    Quote Originally Posted by mstrocovie View Post
    Well stated as usual Chris.
    Thanks, that's very kind. I've written about the some of the synthetic musks available on my blog for those interested in the differences. As you'll see, several of them are found in various natural materials too. I'm planning a series of blog posts exploring ethical aspects of perfumery over the coming year.
    ďA person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  49. #49
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    Default Re: natural vs artificial musk

    Thank you so much for the information on musk. Very informative and interesting.

  50. #50

    Default Re: natural vs artificial musk

    I'm not convinced that Shangralide has been discontinued...

    As for the Musk Odor Profile, The real is beautiful and complex, but for my nose, Muscone is a prime element (albeit expensive and hard to obtain in small amounts). When my sample came, I put in my order the next week because it was so nice.

  51. #51

    Default Re: natural vs artificial musk

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Bartlett View Post
    Thanks, that's very kind. I've written about the some of the synthetic musks available on my blog for those interested in the differences. As you'll see, several of them are found in various natural materials too. I'm planning a series of blog posts exploring ethical aspects of perfumery over the coming year.
    Nice info there Chris. I look forward to the series on ethical aspects. Ambrettolide indeed works well w Omega pentadecalactone....lol
    Zanshin

  52. #52

    Default Re: natural vs artificial musk

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    I'm not convinced that Shangralide has been discontinued...

    As for the Musk Odor Profile, The real is beautiful and complex, but for my nose, Muscone is a prime element (albeit expensive and hard to obtain in small amounts). When my sample came, I put in my order the next week because it was so nice.
    Shangralide Oliffac (by IFF) is still listed by their UK distributor: it isn't something I use but it does look like it's still available.

    I agree Muscone is fabulous and the same supplier lists that too. I've previously bought it from De Hekserij but I couldn't see it on their latest International Price list now, so perhaps they are having supply problems.

    l-Muscone is even nicer, but I've never been able to find a supplier for that other that buying direct from Takasago which involves buying far larger amounts than I can cope with.
    ďA person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  53. #53

    Default Re: natural vs artificial musk

    Love i-muscone very much indeed. Will be looking up Shangralide too, if only because it has a really cool name.
    Zanshin

  54. #54

    Default Re: natural vs artificial musk

    Shangralide (not Shangralide Oliffac) was manufactured by IFF, and was based around Galaxolide. Last time I asked the IFF rep about it he thought it had been withdrawn. Maybe another reformulation?

  55. #55

    Default Re: natural vs artificial musk

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    Shangralide (not Shangralide Oliffac) was manufactured by IFF, and was based around Galaxolide. Last time I asked the IFF rep about it he thought it had been withdrawn. Maybe another reformulation?
    Ugh!!! Reformulations!!!! All the musks and their reformulations really pale in comparison to the real stuff. Not enough animal in any of em if you ask me. Good call on the para cresyl caprylate above....def a pee pee note there.
    Zanshin

  56. #56

    Default Re: natural vs artificial musk

    mstrcovie, did you get the chance to take David's early suggestion of Tonquitone PCMF DEPR?

    I just got my sample today, and I like it, (for what it is...) probably in combo with others would work well.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  57. #57

    Default

    Are there any perfumes which make use of l-Muscone and where it is possible to experience the scent of this particular musk?

  58. #58

    Default Re: natural vs artificial musk

    Quote Originally Posted by gecko214 View Post
    Thanks Gido, as to 50 grams for you, that all depends on how many others are interested. I was surprised at no interest yet, since others were saying what a nice and hard to get molecule it is. But maybe the geosmin group buy has everyone distracted...
    Oh! Yes definitely interested in buying some of this. I'd like 100g but if there are not enough buyers to make it viable I could consider some more, perhaps even as much as half a Kg - this is a truly lovely musk.

    And you were right I'd been distracted by Geosmin . . . I've set out there the main considerations for hosting group buys. With l-Muscone you don't need to worry about refrigeration and of course it will be much easier to weigh out and no dilution is required so there isn't the concern about ethanol. Otherwise it's pretty much the same things apply.
    ďA person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  59. #59

    Default Re: natural vs artificial musk

    Put me in for 150g - 250g please
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  60. #60

    Default Re: natural vs artificial musk

    How does this compare to the racemic muscone from PA? Seems to be much more expensive...

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