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  1. #151

    Default Re: Primer on How to Make Perfume (Version 1.0)

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain View Post
    Forgive me for not reading all 149 posts. I have a question or two! I want to make a simple sandalwood, violet, musk and vanilla concoction, nothing complicated. I want to use an alcohol base for sure, I generally don't like the oily feel of oil bases.

    So, my question, is there any supplier that would ship perfumer's alcohol within Canada? It is indeed hard to find. I used my provincial liquor store app to search for Everclear with no luck. The highest proof alcohol I can find is 40% vodka. Now, would I dilute that further with distiller water or use is full strength? If the consensus is that vodka makes a vastly inferior product I might just resort to jojoba oil after all.
    I canít help re supplies in Canada except to say that it must be possible as I have worked for at least one small-scale perfume house in Canada ...

    As far as the 40% ABV vodka is concerned you might get a useful amount of vanillin to dissolve in that but for everything else youíll need a much stronger vodka (or other ethanol) get get anywhere. Iíd say a minimum 80% ABV is necessary for perfume making. Given all of which it surely goes without saying that the last thing you want to do is add yet more water to it.

    BTW a sandalwood, violet musk and vanilla concoction isnít going to be simple unless you buy pre-mixed fragrance oils to make it with as there are a lot of individual aroma chemicals involved in each of those scent components.

    You may find it worthwhile to read the How to make perfume post on my blog.
    ďA person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  2. #152
    Basenotes Member Captain's Avatar
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    Default Primer on How to Make Perfume (Version 1.0)

    Thank you so much, Chris!! I should have mentioned what I'm using, fragrance oils from Perfumer's Apprentice - no natural oils at all, I have no problem with synthetics. It seems like a good place to start. Because they are oils and I won't have to dissolve crystals would 50% ABV vodka work? I just found out I can get that here. My husband has a buddy who makes homemade grain alcohol which would be high ABV for sure but no one knows the actual amount lol. I'm going to read your blog now!
    Last edited by Captain; 21st September 2014 at 05:38 PM.

  3. #153

    Default Re: Primer on How to Make Perfume (Version 1.0)

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain View Post
    Thank you so much, Chris!! I should have mentioned what I'm using, fragrance oils from Perfumer's Apprentice - no natural oils at all, I have no problem with synthetics. It seems like a good place to start. Because they are oils and I won't have to dissolve crystals would 50% ABV vodka work? I just found out I can get that here. My husband has a buddy who makes homemade grain alcohol which would be high ABV for sure but no one knows the actual amount lol. I'm going to read your blog now!
    No, even though you are working with liquids, they still have to be co-solvent (dissolve in the solvent youíre using). The issue is with polarity: the more non-polar a material is the less will dissolve in water and hence with high-water ethanol.
    ďA person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  4. #154
    Basenotes Member Captain's Avatar
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    Default Re: Primer on How to Make Perfume (Version 1.0)

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Bartlett View Post
    No, even though you are working with liquids, they still have to be co-solvent (dissolve in the solvent youíre using). The issue is with polarity: the more non-polar a material is the less will dissolve in water and hence with high-water ethanol.
    Thanks so much, Chris!! Going to talk with friend who works at a liquor store and get info on availability of a higher ABV here. Next, moonshine!

  5. #155
    Basenotes Member Captain's Avatar
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    Default Re: Primer on How to Make Perfume (Version 1.0)

    I've decided to use oil for now, heh.

  6. #156
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    Default Re: Primer on How to Make Perfume (Version 1.0)

    So sorry if this has already been covered, but the original post mentioned mixing oils first and not diluting them until they've settled, so to speak. How does this work with certain perfume crystals, such as coumarin or cetalox? Is it necessary to disregard the advice of the original thread? Thanks to anybody with experience!

    While we're on the subject, is there a good way of figuring out how much of a crystallized scent compound equates with how much of an oil? Some of the crystals I have smell so good but I haven't quite figured out how to incorporate them yet so all advice is appreciated!

  7. #157

    Default Re: Primer on How to Make Perfume (Version 1.0)

    If making a production quantity, the amount of coumarin or Cetalox will be large enough that it can be weighed out directly, and will dissolve into the overall formulation.

    If doing development work, the amounts could be too small to weigh accurately, so it may be preferred to use dilutions such as 10 or 20% coumarin or 5% Cetalox.

    There is no equivalence between different compounds, whether both are oils, both are crystals, or one is a crystal and one is an oil. Commonly they will have very different strengths simply from being different compounds. Whether originally a crystal or an oil does not determine the strength.

  8. #158
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    Default Re: Primer on How to Make Perfume (Version 1.0)

    Thanks, I've been trying to work with a similar dilution ratio as what you're suggesting just for playing around a bit, and you're exactly right, the difficulty is in using quantities that are pretty much un-measurable. As for comparisons between compounds, I'm aware that different oils will have different strengths, but it still seems to me like crystals in similar measurements are at least two or three times as strong as any of my oils, like there's a significant gap between them. It's funny how subjective all of this is! It's both part of the fun and part of the frustration of it all lol.

  9. #159

    Default Re: Primer on How to Make Perfume (Version 1.0)

    I know this has been discussed but I am still just a little unsure and just wanted to confirm the dilution percentages when making an EDT. As a simplified example, would it go something like this:

    Step 1. Dilute EO's to 10% with Ethanol

    Step 2. Create fragrance: 55% Base notes + 20% Middle notes + 25% Top notes (Made entirely from my now diluted EO's)

    Is the above correct, or in step 2, am I meant to add more Ethanol even though I have already diluted my EO'S?

  10. #160

    Default Re: Primer on How to Make Perfume (Version 1.0)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucas5 View Post
    I know this has been discussed but I am still just a little unsure and just wanted to confirm the dilution percentages when making an EDT. As a simplified example, would it go something like this:

    Step 1. Dilute EO's to 10% with Ethanol

    Step 2. Create fragrance: 55% Base notes + 20% Middle notes + 25% Top notes (Made entirely from my now diluted EO's)

    Is the above correct, or in step 2, am I meant to add more Ethanol even though I have already diluted my EO'S?
    Thatís exactly correct.

    However if you were making, for example, a traditional Cologne or Aftershave both of which are normally made at less than 10% dilution (around 5% and 2% respectively) then youíd need to add more ethanol to reduce the concentration further. Iíd recommend you leave that problem for later though: to begin with just make blends at around 10% and see how you get on.
    ďA person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  11. #161

    Default Re: Primer on How to Make Perfume (Version 1.0)

    Great. Thank you Chris. Wanted to make sure I was on the right track.

  12. #162

    Default Re: Primer on How to Make Perfume (Version 1.0)

    Maybe it is not place to mention to this but i must ask.

    What is the most popular brand essential oil seller or manifacturer in Europe,especially Turkey?For example creed aventus immitation manifacturer companies's product are not enough for my costumers.

    Manifacturer say me it is same with original at % 99 percentage but i think it isn't that scent and they don't like originals.

    Can you say me that wholesale perfume oil seller(most popular)in Europe?

    I want to buy essencial oil which most similar to originals.

  13. #163

    Default Re: Primer on How to Make Perfume (Version 1.0)

    Is there a place I can get a relative strength chart?
    Thank you

  14. #164
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    Default Re: Primer on How to Make Perfume (in progress)

    Thank you very much for this great information. I am a complete novice this is invaluable information....Again, Thank You!

  15. #165

    Default Re: Primer on How to Make Perfume (Version 1.0)

    Hello! Firstly thank you very much for your unique information! I am very happy that I found this forum! I have a question .. Already in a few places I've seen different versions of the percentage of the base, middle and top notes in the compound. In the well-known work of Jean Charles specified exactly the same as here slightly higher (55% Base notes + 20% Middle notes + 25% Top notes) but also in other places and at the beginning of this topic (quote: "Thus, for a rough start , try blending three drops of your chosen top note, two drops of a middle note, and a single drop of a base note. ") that is the other way around! I understand that probably there is no strict rules .. but still ... What is the truth. ?? Thank You!

  16. #166

    Default Re: Primer on How to Make Perfume (Version 1.0)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dmitriy View Post
    Hello! Firstly thank you very much for your unique information! I am very happy that I found this forum! I have a question .. Already in a few places I've seen different versions of the percentage of the base, middle and top notes in the compound. In the well-known work of Jean Charles specified exactly the same as here slightly higher (55% Base notes + 20% Middle notes + 25% Top notes) but also in other places and at the beginning of this topic (quote: "Thus, for a rough start , try blending three drops of your chosen top note, two drops of a middle note, and a single drop of a base note. ") that is the other way around! I understand that probably there is no strict rules .. but still ... What is the truth. ?? Thank You!
    The truth is there are no rules. The base is generally where most of the fixatives live so the base percentage tends to be greater to get better performance from the perfume, but not always. Take a few ingredients and start mixing and build on that.

  17. #167

    Default Re: Primer on How to Make Perfume (Version 1.0)

    Quote Originally Posted by I.D.Adam View Post
    The truth is there are no rules. The base is generally where most of the fixatives live so the base percentage tends to be greater to get better performance from the perfume, but not always. Take a few ingredients and start mixing and build on that.
    I.D.Adam , thank you very much for your reply! Yes, I understand that I need to go their own way and do all my mistakes to learn how to do it correctly)) And another question .. If I do (as recommended here) take materials (EO and Absolutes, etc) 10% of the concentration of the solution in ethanol and begin to mix them I get a ready-to-use concentration of cologne ...? That is right ..? Or then I must dissolve still more ..? Thank U!

  18. #168

    Default Re: Primer on How to Make Perfume (Version 1.0)

    deleted
    Last edited by bshell; 17th December 2014 at 05:53 AM. Reason: Delete please

  19. #169

    Default Re: Primer on How to Make Perfume (Version 1.0)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dmitriy View Post
    I.D.Adam , thank you very much for your reply! Yes, I understand that I need to go their own way and do all my mistakes to learn how to do it correctly)) And another question .. If I do (as recommended here) take materials (EO and Absolutes, etc) 10% of the concentration of the solution in ethanol and begin to mix them I get a ready-to-use concentration of cologne ...? That is right ..? Or then I must dissolve still more ..? Thank U!
    It depends on what concentration you want, but 10% will be perfectly wearable with most blends. A traditional cologne is made at more like 5% though, so if thatís what you wanted youíd need to add more ethanol.
    ďA person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  20. #170

    Default Re: Primer on How to Make Perfume (Version 1.0)

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Bartlett View Post
    It depends on what concentration you want, but 10% will be perfectly wearable with most blends. A traditional cologne is made at more like 5% though, so if that’s what you wanted you’d need to add more ethanol.
    Chris, thank you !! That'S Great! It remains only to learn how to make my first perfume)) And also thank you very much for all the replies here on the forum, they have very useful information! I study them carefully and all I read your blog. It's awesome !! Chris please tell me if there is somewhere a list of "Relative Impact" aromatic substances or it is only in the personal experience of perfumers.? To be able guided on that ..

  21. #171

    Default Re: Primer on How to Make Perfume (Version 1.0)

    On TGSC (Google TGSC and the material you're interested in) there is rough categorization of odor intensity.

    For example if you Google:

    TGSC javanol

    you get http://www.thegoodscentscompany.com/data/rw1493091.html . There will be an "Organoleptics" tab. Clicking that, you'll see Odor Intensity: High.

    So it's a rough categorization, but useful. In this case, if the strength seemed low to you, then this could be a hint that there's a perception problem, that you've actually used too much and less might be better or might even smell like more. (Some materials when at much concentration smell stronger when more dilute, and only when very dilute go to the normal less-is-less trend.)

    There will often also be Fragrance Demo Formulas, which can give an idea of how the material has been used by others. In this example, we'd see that it's commonly used in amounts of 1% or less. Another material, however, we might see common use in amounts of 10% or more.

    I know of no chart that gives for most aromachemicals fine gradations of intensity, but you do have this rough categorization.
    Last edited by Bill Roberts; 18th December 2014 at 07:10 PM.

  22. #172

    Default Re: Primer on How to Make Perfume (Version 1.0)

    Thank you Bill! This is really very helpful information I will certainly use it! I just think that there is a list of aromatic substances for example where they are arranged in descending order of their "Relative Impact". It would be very demonstrative ))

  23. #173

    Default Re: Primer on How to Make Perfume (Version 1.0)

    ItalianStallion thank you for the thread.
    I sometimes have a problem regarding to solving the oils. Oils like musk or pineapple are not solved in my perfumery alcohol. Should I use DPG for this purpose? If yes, what would be the proper proportion? Are there any other solvents for this purpose?
    My second question is about the difference between a pyramidal-structured and a linear-structured perfume? Actually I am confused. When we want to make a perfume based on a pyramid structure we put base,middle and top oils in order. But we are mixing some oils in order also in a linear method. So, what would be the differences?
    My third question is about timing of the scents. What should we do if suppose we want to have two scents (e.g. flower & wood) together at a same time, but in another experience we want to have them separately in different periods (e.g. from start to 5 minutes flower and wood for the rest) ?
    Last edited by cimorghe; 19th December 2014 at 07:22 PM.

  24. #174

    Default Re: Primer on How to Make Perfume (Version 1.0)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cat View Post
    Glad to help, Yvan!
    The purpose of a fixative is to slow down the evaporation rate of the other oils and in this case, the base as well.
    Essential oils that are good fixatives are the slower-evaporating ones like sandalwood, benzoin, vetiver, frankincense, balsam peru, labdanum, oakmoss, etc. They also add depth and richness to the blend.
    Unfortunately, many of these oils are strongly-scented, and can "take over" a blend unless used with care.
    A good rule of the thumb when using these is to limit them to no more than 10 to 15 percent of a perfume formula, especially if the top and middle notes are comprised of more delicate, ethereal scents.
    The addition of glycerine, which is an odorless, syrupy by-product of soapmaking, adds a humectant quality to the blend, helping to offset the drying effects of the alcohol and helps the scent last longer once it's applied.
    Hope this helps...I would be interested in seeing your recipes when they are ready!
    Cat
    i have read in one book, Jean Carles method of creation perfume was top notes (25%), middle notes (20%) and base notes(55%). but here you said that do not add more than 10-15% of the perfume formula so will you please explaing me why. or you meant to say any specific fixative.

  25. #175

    Default Re: Primer on How to Make Perfume (Version 1.0)

    Concerning the base section about carriers for essential oils. Here is a useful link for Canadians as to were you might get some professional grade perfumers alcohol and other supplies >>> www.saffireblue.ca/shop/perfumery
    Please do note that if you are ordering form the states there is a Hazmat fee of 50$ on the alcohol so I'd just look for the pure grain 95% alcohol to save money. Also they don't ship internationally just so you know.
    Hope this can help someone.

  26. #176
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    Default Re: Primer on How to Make Perfume (Version 1.0)

    Hi. I have a few suggestions for some of the queries in this thread.

    As far as the human sweat aroma goes, I bought an ounce of Balm of Gilead buds, and to me they smelt very strongly of adolescent armpits, but maybe that's just my sense of smell.
    To me, the smell of Cypress has an element of this too, and fried onions, though, an extract of this may be something of a challenge.

    Also, I believe Jojoba oil is rich in vitamin E, and combines readily with a substance in human skin called sebum.
    I like to thin out the oil with ethyl alcohol to make it more runny so the oils evaporate more quickly, whilst still lasting longer than just pure alcohol.
    I've read somewhere that Jojoba oil is not actually an oil, but a liquid wax . I find it lasts a very long time and it has never gone rancid in any of the formulas I've concocted so far. Perhaps this is due to it's being a wax and not an oil as such.

    I usually obtain my alcohol from friends who are at the university doing chemistry courses, or friends in the medical profession, though so far, I have only been able to get smallish amounts, but maybe that info will be of use to someone who hasn't already thought of it.

    Regarding the cloudiness of some formulas, I have found that my Frankincense formulas tend to go cloudy when I add Benzoin.
    Until that point, they are transparent, so I can only assume that some chemical reaction takes place between some of the constituents in these oils resulting in some kind of precipitation.
    I don't really mind though, as my stuff is mainly for my own personal use.
    I suppose I could filter it.

    Anyway, thanks for the highly informative thread, and I hope my ramblings have been in some way useful to someone.
    Any corrections in my info would be welcome.
    Thanks again
    Last edited by Zos; 28th April 2015 at 02:10 AM.

  27. #177

    Default Re: Primer on How to Make Perfume (Version 1.0)

    Cloudiness usually means a solubility problem. If you are using a Benzoin resinoid it will have been diluted, probably with Benzyl Benzoate or Benzyl Alcohol. This could be causing the cloudiness. If it doesn't bother you then fine. It is common practice to chill and filter an alcoholic fragrance; not sure if tis is done with any other solvent, probably not.

  28. #178
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    Default Re: Primer on How to Make Perfume (Version 1.0)

    OK thanks.

    I've never tried freezing any of my concoctions for fear of spoiling them in some way.
    I only recently plucked up the courage to gently heat them for the same reason, but they seem to be more resilient than I thought.
    The Benzoin I used was natural, but thinned in DPG.
    I did think of filtering, but as I was only using Jojoba, I thought it would be too thick to pass through paper.
    Never thought of cloth:S
    Last edited by Zos; 28th April 2015 at 08:26 PM.

  29. #179

    Default Re: Primer on How to Make Perfume (Version 1.0)

    I wouldn't freeze, just cool (others think differently). So the Frankincense was not that soluble in DPG, thus the cloudiness.
    Last edited by David Ruskin; 29th April 2015 at 03:06 PM.

  30. #180
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    Default Re: Primer on How to Make Perfume (Version 1.0)

    Ahhhh! Thanks for the info.
    Although I was prepared to put up with the cloudiness, it was bugging me as to why it happened.

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