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  1. #31
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    Default Re: Sean "Diddy" Combs launch of Unforgivable at S

    Quote Originally Posted by RCavs
    [quote author=czesc link=1133508189/15#24 date=1146069615]no but ill conclude you know nothing what your talking about. I seriously doubt you could tell the difference between "fake" and "real" hip hop behaviour, not to mention sampling songs has the essence of hip hop since the late 70's. As far as the Paris Hilton comment goes, you don't like her because of things that are true, she does have stupid behaviour and she does say stupid things. puff daddy is NOT a criminal or a thug, see the difference? but i digress... go on with your life.
    Czesc,
    I don't think "puff whatever" is a criminal or a thug. I never said that. I JUST DON'T LIKE HIM. But if unforgivable smells good, I'll buy it.
    Well, talking about your conclusion, I'd say you might be right. I don't give a F#*K about what is fake or real hip hop. I think your idol should start learning how to play some real instruments and write better lyrics instead of "copying and pasting" somebodyelse's work.
    Go on with your life too, clever guy.[/quote]

    thanks for not actually debating the only real point of contest I made in my post. anyone with any knowledge of reasoning or debate can easily pick up on at least 2 of the classical fallacies at play here. dont know what im talking about? look it up! you lose

  2. #32
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    Default Re: Sean "Diddy" Combs launch of Unforgivable at S

    Quote Originally Posted by gingerpress
    Though he was wrong to get personal about getting too personal, reliquaryole was right about czesc's responses: his heart's in the sweet spot, but he's being defensive and confrontational. No disrespect, czesc, but that check-yourself line works both ways.

    Trouble is, we're all derailing ourselves by talking about what we're talking about. I don't know if it's possible to have a sane conversation about hip-hop on a non-hip-hop board -- especially when we're supposed to be discussing cologne.

    All this reminiscing is making me want to check the Scrypt Forum to see whether it's a haven for spoken nerds like me who listen to MF Doom and Anti-Pop Consortium (but also 90s artists like Blackalicious and A Tribe Called Quest). If you know of a better web joint, PM me with suggestions.

    [quote author=greyhueofdoubt link=1133508189/15#25 date=1146070178]While this forum should focus on fragrances themselves, I wouldn't think it strange to see a thread on the procedures of perfumers, the legacy of the Creed family, or the personal stories behind certain frags. I draw the line at negative attacks, but simply discussing a person doesn't seem so bad.
    I nearly said the same thing. Thanks for that.

    He may rip off other artist's music, but he has won 3 Grammy awards- a remarkable achievement.
    The problem is this: To talk about rap in public is to argue/preach about racism, which can turn chromatic subjects like plagiarism into B&W absolutes. But my issues with Combs have nothing to do with that. The first rap artist to start his own fashion label was Dana Dane (of IV Plai Boutique), and that was fifteen years ago. It's a bit late to be worried about the couture neighborhood.

    The problem -- label-paid A&R people who want to displace their own artists for selfish reasons -- is not limited to any genre or ethnicity. Business-to-artist plagiarism worries me because we've entered an extremely corporate era, and because people who devote their lives to perfecting an art get few enough chances already. It also upsets me to have spent most of my life as a studio musician watching other musicians be stolen from. Publishing, royalties and recognition: all get gaffled by higher-ups unless the original creator proves strong and savvy. During breaks from some of my first sessions, I recall watching Tashan walk into Studio B of Intergalactic, record himself singing, rapping and playing every single instrument on his album, Chasin' A Dream, only to find out months later that Russell Simmons and Rick Rubin took full credit for his work. That happens all the time in dance music and hip-hop. Just ask the godfather of "appropriation," Arthur Baker. (Then again, many would argue that rap is among other things a form of revenge against the culture that, um, appropriated rock and jazz.)

    Three Grammys, you say? An achievement, definitely. But not any more remarkable than that of other celebrities who pay for their hits. And I don't mean to single Combs out: Much of the authorship and style that wins public music awards is either boosted or bought from those who are not in a position to argue. That such a serious subject came up in the context of people calling Combs cliché names is sad, really, and my fault, of course -- which is why I'll stop breaking my own rules. I should probably exit the train at this stop, sniff-fiend Empresses and Gs, since I can't even remember what Unforgivable smells like.[/quote]


    dude are you crazy? your clearly trying to get me to just ignore what happened with statements like these

    "Trouble is, we're all derailing ourselves by talking about what we're talking about. I don't know if it's possible to have a sane conversation about hip-hop on a non-hip-hop board -- especially when we're supposed to be discussing cologne. "

    Thats the exact kind of reponse I was talking about earlier. let it be let it be, be nice, lets move on, yadda yadda. If you look at my history of posts on this board im not someone that just sits back and goes with the flow, I'll say what I'll say if I think its right. I'm sure you can tell im also no blumbering idiot that just speaks his mind. I read between the lines and I'll call people out on whatever theyre saying. I hate the way discussion in america has degenerated to this kinda word for word lawyer like analysis nowadays. Reasons for that I wont get into! Its not my goal to make enemies here either, in fact, I don't even feel that from my perspective I should be enemies with banzaiburger or anyone else I've gotten into a heated discussion with here. I'd be a fool to think that a large segment of the american population doesn't secretly think african americans should still be hanging in trees (I can already see the long lists of posts contesting me on this one, get real people). Basicly my message has been from the beginning: Racism exists! and that I acknowledge, but do it on your own time at your kitchen table or whatever, not here at basenotes!

  3. #33

    Default Re: Sean "Diddy" Combs launch of Unforgivable at S

    czesc-
    I'm sorry, man... I've been reading your inflammatory posts for a long while, and while I think it's admirable to stand your ground in a debate, Basenotes simply isn't the appropriate venue. I won't accuse you of trolling, because I can't read your mind, but your actions amount to just that. You make specious arguments seemingly for the sake of argument. I think you find it hard to believe that anyone might hold a different opinion than you yet still be an intelligent, reasonable adult. While you might be in a jovial mood as you write your posts, they tend to be read as antagonistic and vicious. I don't even feel like writing this, because everyone who crosses you winds up in a long semantic debate about practically nothing. Look, I'm not judging you as a person or disagreeing with you or trying to start an argument. I just want you to know that your posts are getting more inappropriate as time goes on. And since you like to argue so much (and apropos your last post about fallacies), I present to you a list of fallacies that I have found in your posts. I just want you to put things in perspective. And I will not argue with you, and that's the end of it.

    Ad Hominem
    Straw man
    Ad ignorantiam
    Equivocation
    Amphiboly
    Division
    Petitio Principii
    False Dilemma


    Good day
    ben
    Nihil Obstat Ben


    My Wardrobe

  4. #34
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    Default Re: Sean "Diddy" Combs launch of Unforgivable at S

    Quote Originally Posted by greyhueofdoubt
    czesc-
    I'm sorry, man... I've been reading your inflammatory posts for a long while, and while I think it's admirable to stand your ground in a debate, Basenotes simply isn't the appropriate venue. I won't accuse you of trolling, because I can't read your mind, but your actions amount to just that. You make specious arguments seemingly for the sake of argument. I think you find it hard to believe that anyone might hold a different opinion than you yet still be an intelligent, reasonable adult. While you might be in a jovial mood as you write your posts, they tend to be read as antagonistic and vicious. I don't even feel like writing this, because everyone who crosses you winds up in a long semantic debate about practically nothing. Look, I'm not judging you as a person or disagreeing with you or trying to start an argument. I just want you to know that your posts are getting more inappropriate as time goes on. And since you like to argue so much (and apropos your last post about fallacies), I present to you a list of fallacies that I have found in your posts. I just want you to put things in perspective. And I will not argue with you, and that's the end of it.

    Ad Hominem
    Straw man
    Ad ignorantiam
    Equivocation
    Amphiboly
    Division
    Petitio Principii
    False Dilemma


    Good day
    ben
    please ben, where in this entire thread have I done any of that. and dont bring any examples from other threads that ive clearly created just to "start crap" (those make up like 5% of my posts anyways so be easy and its fairly obvious which ones those were). I'm sure I have countered absolutley every arguement put forth to me here in this particular thread while its painfully clear most of you aren't doing that to mine.

    you know what, to hell with it. lets do a play by play.

    my claim: p diddy has been unfairly singled out on this board because he is black

    your claim: And as for the question about why we never said negative things about Paris Hilton when her frags came out.... Well, some people did. Quite a bit, actually. There was an entire thread about how some people liked her fragrance but were afraid to wear it because of the name.

    final say: Being afraid to wear Paris Hilton due to possible embarrassment of having to admit it to a friend, and stating the reason you won't buy Unbelieveable is because Sean Combs is a no talent thug and criminal is very different in my mind. The first represents an insecurity of some kind by the person posting, while the latter borders on slander and defamation of character.

    -----------

    NEXT

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    my claim: puff daddy has never been convicted of anything

    your claim: Sean Combs has been indicted on several charges in the last few years, but as far as I know they were all acquitted.

    final answer: quite obvious

    --------

    next

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    Who told you I'm white? How can you make such assumptions?

    - No one, I didnt. who are you anyways? where did you come from? ah i see... just here to get a piece of the action

    I also don't like "Puff whatever", his fake hip hop behaviour, his sampled songs etc. And I don't like Paris Hilton too: her stupid behaviour, the stupid things she talks etc.

    - She really does do all these things though, which is a totally different story than bonzai claiming puff daddy is a thug and a criminal when he isn't

    After reading this, Are you going to conclude I'm a black and blondie's hater?

    - No, thats rediculous.

    -------

    NEXT

    ---------

    an example of the blindfold mentality going on here:

    "Trouble is, we're all derailing ourselves by talking about what we're talking about. I don't know if it's possible to have a sane conversation about hip-hop on a non-hip-hop board -- especially when we're supposed to be discussing cologne. "

    no disrespect to the poster (not everyone has to be a revolutionary) but I'm just trying to prove a point.

    ---------

    NEXT

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    another gem by RCavs

    My point: As far as the Paris Hilton comment goes, you don't like her because of things that are true, she does have stupid behaviour and she does say stupid things. puff daddy is NOT a criminal or a thug, see the difference?

    his answer: I think your idol should start learning how to play some real instruments and write better lyrics instead of "copying and pasting" somebodyelse's work.

    ok ben, your right... i gotta stop committing all those fallacies

    -------

    thanks for putting everything in perspective for me.

    -------


  5. #35

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    Default Re: Sean "Diddy" Combs launch of Unforgivable at S

    Quote Originally Posted by czesc
    Who told you I'm white? How can you make such assumptions?

    - No one, I didnt. who are you anyways? where did you come from? ah i see... just here to get a piece of the action

    I also don't like "Puff whatever", his fake hip hop behaviour, his sampled songs etc. And I don't like Paris Hilton too: her stupid behaviour, the stupid things she talks etc.

    - She really does do all these things though, which is a totally different story than bonzai claiming puff daddy is a thug and a criminal when he isn't
    Ok, Czesc, I'll play your game: did anyone notice the prejudice against my origin? what do you see? That I'm from the third world?
    Ok, Ok, Ok... I'm just kidding! Man, You're paranoid!
    You should watch more "Spike Lee's joints"...
    Are you Puff's lawyer? Ok, He isn't a criminal, but he acts like one.

  6. #36
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    Default Re: Sean "Diddy" Combs launch of Unforgivable at S

    I don't think Puff Daddy acts like much of a thug at all. He has at points in his career though tried to act harder than at other times. For a while people kept talking about how he shot someone in a club, but I'm not sure if that's true or not. And to be completely honest, I even like a few of his songs. Not because I think he's a skilled musician, but some of his pieces have a tremendous amount of work and production put into them from lots of powerful people. I would never buy one of his albums though, because I don't see him as talented and because his worthwhile songs tend to be few and far between and I don't want to buy an album just for a couple good songs. Just my take on the guy. Also, czesc, I don't think that anyone hear really meant to be racist. There were some things that were said that could be interpreted as racist, but I strongly believe that no racism was intended. I think it is good to give people the benefit of the doubt and assume they weren't talking about racism, and with that frame of mind then approach them and you will probably get better and more truthful results. It is rare that blaims help anything.

  7. #37

    Default Re: Sean "Diddy" Combs launch of Unforgivable at S

    I should have my head checked for posting in this thread, but here goes.

    Combs has been on my shitlist for a long time, at least since he got so much attention for that worthless ripoff of "Every Breath You Take". I doubt I'm singling him out because I'm a racist or a hip-hop hater since I have a very special place in my heart for Public Enemy, Dead Prez, the Coup, and other socially conscious black rap artists.

    I don't know about others on the board, but as far as I can tell I resent this guy's success because I just don't like what he produces and how he presents it. (Incidentally I think a sizable contingent of the hip-hop community feels similarly.) Apparently a whole lot of people do like Combs's stuff, though, and I'm sure it's not easy to do what he's done. Evidently he works hard, and I can respect that. But I don't find winning awards or making a lot of money endearing in itself. I try to base opinions on the value of people's work, output, contributions; of course these judgments are largely subjective, but so be it.

    So I admit a bias against him (but not against his skin color) when I say I agree his fragrance, like a lot of his music, smells like a ripoff. And I admit I might well boycott his fragrance even if I thought it smelled great and original simply because I don't want to give him my money. I'm not as familiar with Paris Hilton, but from what little I know I feel pretty much the same way about her. I've passed up numerous opportunities even to smell her men's fragrance, despite being told it's better than one would expect, simply because the association with her puts me off.

    Anyway, believe what you want about why Combs attracts so much attention. I don't see how anyone's going to prove anything about this in the end.
    Do you smell what I smell? Vive le Crystal Flaçon!

  8. #38

    Default Re: Sean "Diddy" Combs launch of Unforgivable at S

    Wow, this thread turned pretty sour... Here's my take. I respect Puffy/Diddy/whatever as a human being, and he's done lots of good for a lot of people. That said, as a musician and a business man, I have very little respect. Most of his music is unoriginal or mediocre at best, and most of his business stuff (clothing, fragrances) are unoriginal and uninspiring as well. The simple fact of the matter is that Unforgivable, at least in the EdT at the department stores, is a blatant Millesime Imperial / Wall Street ripoff (and Wall Street borrows very strongly from MI). Maybe the EdP is different, but I doubt it. It's a shame that now I'm going to be wearing my MI and someone's going to say "hey, is that the new Puffy fragrance?" and I'm going to get mad. It's a shame, really, especially since Diddy was known to be an MI wearer himself. What's his excuse?

  9. #39
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    Default Re: Sean "Diddy" Combs launch of Unforgivable at S

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuffman
    Wow, this thread turned pretty sour... Here's my take. I respect Puffy/Diddy/whatever as a human being, and he's done lots of good for a lot of people. That said, as a musician and a business man, I have very little respect. Most of his music is unoriginal or mediocre at best, and most of his business stuff (clothing, fragrances) are unoriginal and uninspiring as well. The simple fact of the matter is that Unforgivable, at least in the EdT at the department stores, is a blatant Millesime Imperial / Wall Street ripoff (and Wall Street borrows very strongly from MI). Maybe the EdP is different, but I doubt it. It's a shame that now I'm going to be wearing my MI and someone's going to say "hey, is that the new Puffy fragrance?" and I'm going to get mad. It's a shame, really, especially since Diddy was known to be an MI wearer himself. What's his excuse?
    his excuse is probably the extra 100 mil in his pocket from unforgivable's sales :P

  10. #40

    Default Re: Sean "Diddy" Combs launch of Unforgivable at S

    Yeah but see czesc, the "cologne newcomer" dosnt know that Unforgivable is very similar to Millesime Imperial and they are going to buy it. How many people who listen to Combs wear MI?

    MikeD on Chaz by Revlon: "I knew a lady who took one sniff and said "bug spray." I never told the guy what she said, but the termites disappeared, oddly enough."

  11. #41

    Default Re: Sean "Diddy" Combs launch of Unforgivable at S

    You don't seem to appreciate the man all that much yourself czesc, yet you accuse other people of not liking him because he is black. Only you can dislike him for proper reasons, is that your point?

    Where is your actual proof that he is disliked because of his color? The fact that one person called him a thug without proper reason? How did you actually came to the conclusion that he got called thug because he is black? Also, you claim that he got bashed here on basenotes because 'racism exists'. Ofcourse it does. But that's hardly a watertight proof that his fragrance get's bashed because of this. Would you accept the logic that Paris Hilton got bashed here because she is a woman and chauvinism exists?

    In my mind there are many reasons to dislike Combs. I think he is egocentric opportunist who makes money with ripoffs. He has an excellent business instinct, that's the best thing I can say about the man. Should I pretend I like him to be not labeled as a racist?

    Also, remember that Bond No. 9 got some hard criticism here for copying various Creeds, yet criticism towards Combs for the same act is because of his skin color?




  12. #42

    Default Re: Sean "Diddy" Combs launch of Unforgivable at S

    I'd sooner buy a bottle of Eau D'OJ Simpson, because at least there's a chance some of the money will go towards his victims' court settlement. As a general rule, I don't like subsidizing criminals and thugs.

    That was the statement most people took exception with, including me. The post had nothing to do with Unforgiveable being a rip off of Millesime Imperial and Wall Street nor did it provide any feedback on the fragrance. One could only conclude from it that the poster considered Sean Combs a criminal and thug, and as a result he would never purchase Unbelieveable or any other fragrance he put out.

    The bias is interesting even in the choice of words Stuffmans used in his post;
    "(Unforgiveable)...is a blatant Millesime Imperial / Wall Street ripoff (and Wall Street borrows very strongly from MI)". Combs is accused of "blatantly ripping off" MI and Wall Street, but Wallstreet only "borrows" from MI. Obviously Combs isn't the first, nor will he be the last to rip off a fragrance.

    I agree that there was no racial attack other than the poster choose to single out two individuals that happened to be black. On this particular board, one's opinion of Combs as a person isn't relevant. There are alot of other boards out there that will allow you to state your opinion on Combs the person, or the quality of his music. On this board, I thought the point was to discuss fragrances.



  13. #43

    Default Re: Sean "Diddy" Combs launch of Unforgivable at S

    Quote Originally Posted by czesc
    [quote author=greyhueofdoubt link=1133508189/30#32 date=1146086480]czesc-
    I'm sorry, man... I've been reading your inflammatory posts for a long while, and while I think it's admirable to stand your ground in a debate, Basenotes simply isn't the appropriate venue. I won't accuse you of trolling, because I can't read your mind, but your actions amount to just that. You make specious arguments seemingly for the sake of argument. I think you find it hard to believe that anyone might hold a different opinion than you yet still be an intelligent, reasonable adult. While you might be in a jovial mood as you write your posts, they tend to be read as antagonistic and vicious. I don't even feel like writing this, because everyone who crosses you winds up in a long semantic debate about practically nothing. Look, I'm not judging you as a person or disagreeing with you or trying to start an argument. I just want you to know that your posts are getting more inappropriate as time goes on. And since you like to argue so much (and apropos your last post about fallacies), I present to you a list of fallacies that I have found in your posts. I just want you to put things in perspective. And I will not argue with you, and that's the end of it.

    Ad Hominem
    Straw man
    Ad ignorantiam
    Equivocation
    Amphiboly
    Division
    Petitio Principii
    False Dilemma


    Good day
    ben
    please ben, where in this entire thread have I done any of that. and dont bring any examples from other threads that ive clearly created just to "start crap" (those make up like 5% of my posts anyways so be easy and its fairly obvious which ones those were). I'm sure I have countered absolutley every arguement put forth to me here in this particular thread while its painfully clear most of you aren't doing that to mine.



    [/quote]

    Well I have to agree with Ben here. This ain't a place to "start crap" and if you aren't happy with that then you are more than welcome to cancel your supporting membership and start crap elsewhere.


    Currently wearing: Gardénia by Chanel

  14. #44
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    Default Re: Sean "Diddy" Combs launch of Unforgivable at S

    Quote Originally Posted by Smoth 007
    Yeah but see czesc, the "cologne newcomer" dosnt know that Unforgivable is very similar to Millesime Imperial and they are going to buy it. How many people who listen to Combs wear MI?

    cologne newcomer? dude I happen to own MI... I suggest you take a look at my wardrobe sometime.

  15. #45

    Default Re: Sean "Diddy" Combs launch of Unforgivable at S

    Quote Originally Posted by czesc
    [quote author=Smoth 007 link=1133508189/30#39 date=1146148506]Yeah but see czesc, the "cologne newcomer" dosnt know that Unforgivable is very similar to Millesime Imperial and they are going to buy it. How many people who listen to Combs wear MI?

    cologne newcomer? dude I happen to own MI... I suggest you take a look at my wardrobe sometime.[/quote]

    He wasn't calling you a cologne newcomer.

    For cripes sake :P

  16. #46
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    Default Re: Sean "Diddy" Combs launch of Unforgivable at S

    Quote Originally Posted by Octothorpe
    [quote author=czesc link=1133508189/30#43 date=1146159420][quote author=Smoth 007 link=1133508189/30#39 date=1146148506]Yeah but see czesc, the "cologne newcomer" dosnt know that Unforgivable is very similar to Millesime Imperial and they are going to buy it. How many people who listen to Combs wear MI?

    cologne newcomer? dude I happen to own MI... I suggest you take a look at my wardrobe sometime.[/quote]

    He wasn't calling you a cologne newcomer.

    For cripes sake :P
    [/quote]


    oh good god how embarassing, sorry bro!

  17. #47

    Default Re: Sean "Diddy" Combs launch of Unforgivable at S

    Quote Originally Posted by jpara

    The bias is interesting even in the choice of words Stuffmans used in his post;
    "(Unforgiveable)...is a blatant Millesime Imperial / Wall Street ripoff (and Wall Street borrows very strongly from MI)". Combs is accused of "blatantly ripping off" MI and Wall Street, but Wallstreet only "borrows" from MI. Obviously Combs isn't the first, nor will he be the last to rip off a fragrance.

    You are reading into things way to much here. Don't accuse me of being biased against anyone, especially from that statement. I already stated I do not like Puffy as a business man, and it has absolutely nothing to do with his background, ethnicity, or upbringing. If I truly were biased, I would have never chose to date people of other races and ethnicities.

    If you are familiar with MI, Wall Street, and Unforgivable, you would know that Wall Street certainly got its influence from MI, but it's different enough that any casual person could easily distinguish the two. Unforgivable, on the other hand, is an MI clone, right down to its "Mediterranean Air Accord." It attempts to mimic the formula almost exactly, and is totally unforgiving in its doing so. I don't care if it's Sean John or Yves Saint Laurent- it's a blatant rip-off.

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