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  1. #241

    Default Re: gender sensibilities

    Quote Originally Posted by DWFII View Post
    I think the biggest problem I have with these remarks is this:



    I don't see that our perceptions of masculinity or femininity has changed much if at all in 40,000 years. Some gender roles have shifted...slightly...and some expectations are expected. But I suspect most of it is wishful thinking. And flying in the face of evidence to the contrary.

    Beyond all that, you admit that you are currently under the powerful influence of indoctrination yourownself--if human beings are so vulnerable to culture and conditioning a logical person ought to be highly suspicious if not downright restive about finding themselves in such a position. And/or buying into ideas that aren't supported in real life. It's almost like the syndrome that describes the way in which a kidnap victim will begin to admire and even love the kidnapper.



    As I asked earlier...what comes first--the hat or the cows? This is a culture/conditioning question. And the correct answer is still "it doesn't make any difference" You wouldn't entertain either if you weren't genetically inclined to become a rancher. We tend to gravitate towards those things--personalities., lifestyles, etc.--that we are most comfortable with (an ancient Oriental philosophy)

    Moreover, it occurs to me that not only is culture a genetic construct...arising from, and differentiating according to, disparate human gene pools...but it creates it's own self perpetuating system--memes. (it's all kind of beautifully fractal, isn't it?) Memes, like genes resist change...they are carriers of information--code, as who should say. Change it and you break it. The meme for male/female polarity/duality hasn't changed since homo sapiens sapiens walked out of Africa. I don't think wishful thinking is gonna do it.
    We are easily susceptible to cultural influences. But I refuse to accept the theory that we are genetically predisposed to certain things. I present to you the following scenario: sports, are generally considered a masculine activity. Playing, watching, talking about, pretty much everything about sports typify the masculine image. Yet, there are many women that enjoy either playing, or watching sports, some just as much as any man. Is this situation merely a genetic hiccup? An anomaly, against the natural affinity women have to all things pink and frilly? I'd venture a guess that it isn't. What most likely occurred was she was brought up in a family where sports played a central role, where her father, brothers and sisters, and mother were all passionately involved, thus creating a natural bridge for her to enjoy sports as well. I tend to look at things from a more scientific angle than most, but I simply cannot avoid, on this topic, what seems to me to be plainly obvious. Sure, stereotypes, cultural stigmas, norms and values, all tend to stem from something tangible, something of meaning. But not always. In the sense of smell, I think the cultural norms are far less reliant on natural preferences and far more on years and years of unnatural pretenses. You, yourself, may be a rare case, who has such constricted views on what defines a masculine smell, but I'd practically guarantee that the majority of the public has a far looser grasp on this topic, and bases much of their opinions on what is told to them, or what side of the department store the bottle is located on.
    Last edited by mtgprox05; 5th April 2010 at 02:19 AM.
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  2. #242

    Default Re: gender sensibilities

    I'll try to make this short, but I won't make promises. What I think it comes down to is the person that is smelling or trying the fragrance. For me, I see it as an art. If I wanna smell like a flower, I'll put on something that smells like a flower. In the winter I'll wear heavy orientals, if it's spring I'll wear florals, if it's summer I'll wear citruses/aquatics, and if it's fall I'll wear something spicy/rustic. I don't wear fragrances to exude my own masculinity. I'm pretty sure, actually I'm certain that I am in fact a man. I think it's something innate, not learned. My dad, a mason, has no interest in fragrances. He spends as much time as he can outside and can't work a cellphone. Do you think he would rather wear Fleur de Male or Tumulte? The answer is obvious, but I guess we're discussing WHY. Is there any definite answer? I don't think so. Trying to answer that is like trying to figure out why I hate anise, the smell of cooking meat, and my bizarre music tastes (which I've had since I was a kid).
    Last edited by CanwllCorfe; 5th April 2010 at 03:56 AM.

  3. #243

    Default Re: gender sensibilities

    Quote Originally Posted by mrclmind View Post
    There has been a startling increase in the number of straight men wearing pearls, pumps and mini-skirts due to their experimentation with fragrances with feminine notes. I (etcetera)

    Brilliant and funny! (and fitting for this thread.)
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  4. #244
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    Default Re: gender sensibilities

    Quote Originally Posted by StylinLA View Post
    You can consider me a shallow moron,
    I never said nor implied that. It's a self-inflicted wound if you took it that way.

    but I enjoy this as a hobby.
    I would respectfully point out that I must share that interest to some extent...I'm not just wearing Old Spice, as you've already discovered.

    I have no qualms with most of the discussions that come up in here, but you have written the equivalent of a thesis in this one thread. I don't give a crap about your number of posts, but it seems like a ton of them are all in here.
    I did start the thread after all...and I did it in a fairly straight-forward manner. None of this "What's the most masculine fragrance you own" type of thread--there's nothing wrong with that, mind you, but it's really just skirting the same issue. The thought occurs that perhaps if people dealt with the root issues squarely some sort of resolution might be achieved.

    Not likely, I understand. But, while this is indeed a fragrance forum, talking philosophy surely has more chance of resolving the riddle of life and...gender sensibilities...than dueling opinions have of resolving whether Yatagan has a celery note.

    Via con dios, und so weiter
    Last edited by DWFII; 5th April 2010 at 01:05 PM.
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  5. #245

    Default Re: gender sensibilities

    There may be differences in the way a male and a female think, act, and smell... physiologically.

    (then again I am convinced that there are more than just male and female, genderwise (and physiologically too... FWIW.)

    My own take is that a good portion of Americans (the folks with whom I have had the most interaction) are somewhat of the nurtured-masculine or nurtured-feminine... and that marketing and societal so-called "norms" have a great influence on their choices.

    In the end, does this mean that some women wear scents they don't like because they think that they're more feminine if they wear them? (and the same for men and "masculine" scents...) Probably.

    But it also means that there are a large number of people out there (myself included) who simply go for the scent (or the shoes, the clothes, the ... whatever) that they really like, that gives them joy.

    So I have to agree on a small part of the initial premise (that there is a definite influence of "sensibilities" depending upon gender) but disagree on major parts of the premise as applies to myself and many I know.

    Marketing, media, society, religion, etc. all have an influence that is not the influence of pure nature. That's my opinion.

    I always say that if you think it smells good and smells nice on you and it gives you joy to wear it... by all means wear it!
    Last edited by actiasluna; 5th April 2010 at 04:58 AM.
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  6. #246

    Default Re: gender sensibilities

    personally i find sweet florals to be too feminine for me to carry out as most girls smell like that

    for me feminine or not is all about my association with something...

    i find mitsouko more butch than many male frags these days, and chanel pour monsieur to be feminine.

  7. #247

    Default Re: gender sensibilities

    "Guys smell like pigs, girls smell like vanilla"
    Last edited by Scentational; 5th April 2010 at 05:11 AM.

  8. #248

    Default Re: gender sensibilities

    All I want to say is that I find it strange how some guys say that they disike feminine fragrances or don't like to be suggested female fragrances....and, yet they wear Le Male ( or Jacomo Rouge or a creation from Theirry Mugler that is not Mugler Cologne).
    Seeking: Bottles/decants : of Feeling Man, Gucci pour Homme, Essence of John Galliano, Nicole Miller (vintage), Opium pour Homme, Oxford & Cambridge...etc.

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  9. #249

    Default Re: gender sensibilities

    Quote Originally Posted by petruccijc View Post
    I can see Fred, and others who live in the Stoneage, feeling that way.
    Uhhmm - let's see, it's your birthday and you wake up expecting something nice be given to you on your birthday - the way you've thought about things and given others presents on your birthday.

    A person important in your life comes up to you and doesn't have a book/CD/DVD/Concert tickets/ bottle of scotch/ bottle of liqueur/ a bottle of fragrance/ car tools/ power tools/ magazine subscription/ aftershave and deodorant set etc, but instead has an expensive bunch of flowers (that will wilt and be tossed out in a couple of days).

    Just how high on your list of priorities would that bunch of flowers have been?
    Would you rate the person as thoughful and creative, or thoughtless and lazy?
    Renato
    Last edited by Renato; 5th April 2010 at 02:42 PM.

  10. #250

    Default Re: gender sensibilities

    Quote Originally Posted by JBL View Post

    I have no problem with people breaking those "boundaries", but I am actually wondering if someone is smelling a fragrance on you that doesn't fit your gender, what that person will think of you. .
    Well, I wouldn't worry all that much what strangers think of you. What your boss or other people who have power over your long term career propsects think of you is another issue, and I think is akin to to the clothes and shoes you wear, and your grooming. Wearing Angel or Chanel 5 to a job interview might be considered daring, but is usually unwise (although there may be some jobs where it's appropriate).

    As for boundary breaking, well the number of males really breaking boundaries around here is minuscule. They do exist, but in extremely small numbers. The rest are mainly sticking to feminine-almost-unisex scents (especially those with woods in them) and a very limited number of up market feminine scents, most of which they think in terms of being able to "pull off" (because they're not so ultra feminine) or which are often cited as being worn by someone famous for justification of why they're okay for a man to wear (e.g. Sean Connery or some famous perfumer).

    When I start seeing guys here regularly posting that they just love wearing the latest Paris Hilton or Brittany Spears scent (i.e. second tier feminine scents), or that Miss Dior Cherie or Madame Rochas or White Diamonds is their second top scent on rotation, then I'll believe that there really is a move towards breaking boundaries.
    Regards,
    Renato

  11. #251

    Default Re: gender sensibilities

    Quote Originally Posted by Surfacing View Post
    All I want to say is that I find it strange how some guys say that they disike feminine fragrances or don't like to be suggested female fragrances....and, yet they wear Le Male ( or Jacomo Rouge or a creation from Theirry Mugler that is not Mugler Cologne).
    Yes they are sweet, but Le Male has Sandalwood in it, Jacomo Rouge has Sandalwood and Cedarwood.
    The number of women wanting to wear these two scents wouldn't be particularly great.
    Renato

  12. #252

    Default Re: gender sensibilities

    Quote Originally Posted by Renato View Post
    Uhhmm - let's see, it's your birthday and you wake up expecting something nice be given to you on your birthday - the way you've thought about things and given others presents on your birthday.

    A person important in your life comes up to you and doesn't have a book/CD/DVD/Concert tickets/ bottle of scotch/ bottle of liqueur/ a bottle of fragrance/ car tools/ power tools/ magazine subscription/ aftershave and deodorant set etc, but instead has an expensive bunch of flowers (that will wilt and be tossed out in a couple of days).

    Just how high on your list of priorities would that bunch of flowers have been?
    Would you rate the person as thoughful and creative, or thoughtless and lazy?
    Renato
    Of course it depends. One of the best gifts (from the receiver's point of view) was when I gave my hubby a big bouquet of carnations, Stoke City Football Club colored red and white. It was the thought behind it that he appreciated.

    And whenever my sweetie gives me flowers (or a Cub Cadet lawn tractor) I appreciate each equally. Perhaps this makes me odd, in that I don't evaluate gifts based upon how much is spent for them... I get your point that it is the thought that goes into it... but the cost is not relevant IMO.
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  13. #253

    Default Re: gender sensibilities

    Quote Originally Posted by Renato View Post
    Yes they are sweet, but Le Male has Sandalwood in it, Jacomo Rouge has Sandalwood and Cedarwood.
    The number of women wanting to wear these two scents wouldn't be particularly great.
    Renato
    Sandalwood just blends in the base of the fragrance together ( as well as persist the scent). Yes, it does change the character of the scent, but to me, you cannot really pick up any dominant sandalwood notes in those 2 fragrance. The cedarwood in Rouge ? Perhaps. But Rouge is kinda gourmand to me and with unrestrained sweetness.
    Seeking: Bottles/decants : of Feeling Man, Gucci pour Homme, Essence of John Galliano, Nicole Miller (vintage), Opium pour Homme, Oxford & Cambridge...etc.

    Seeking decant/sample of Jil Sander Feeling Man, Cacharel Nemo, Bijan for Men EDC, Lanvin for Men, Giorgio VIP, Il Lancetti and other old school frags ....etc. I have samples to swap.

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  14. #254
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    Default Re: gender sensibilities

    Quote Originally Posted by Renato View Post
    Uhhmm - let's see, it's your birthday and you wake up expecting something nice be given to you on your birthday - the way you've thought about things and given others presents on your birthday.

    A person important in your life comes up to you and doesn't have a book/CD/DVD/Concert tickets/ bottle of scotch/ bottle of liqueur/ a bottle of fragrance/ car tools/ power tools/ magazine subscription/ aftershave and deodorant set etc, but instead has an expensive bunch of flowers (that will wilt and be tossed out in a couple of days).

    Just how high on your list of priorities would that bunch of flowers have been?
    Would you rate the person as thoughful and creative, or thoughtless and lazy?
    Renato
    So it's alright to give a woman flowers for her birthday?
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  15. #255

    Default Re: gender sensibilities

    Quote Originally Posted by CanwllCorfe View Post
    ... What I think it comes down to is the person that is smelling or trying the fragrance. For me, I see it as an art. If I wanna smell like a flower, I'll put on something that smells like a flower. In the winter I'll wear heavy orientals, if it's spring I'll wear florals, if it's summer I'll wear citruses/aquatics, and if it's fall I'll wear something spicy/rustic. I don't wear fragrances to exude my own masculinity. I'm pretty sure, actually I'm certain that I am in fact a man. I think it's something innate, not learned. My dad, a mason, has no interest in fragrances. He spends as much time as he can outside and can't work a cellphone. Do you think he would rather wear Fleur de Male or Tumulte? The answer is obvious, but I guess we're discussing WHY. Is there any definite answer? I don't think so. Trying to answer that is like trying to figure out why I hate anise, the smell of cooking meat, and my bizarre music tastes (which I've had since I was a kid).
    I thought this made a lot of sense, CanwllCorfe.

    I think most people enjoy, unless it becomes life-threatening or entails dire social consequences, communicating which gender group (or variant thereof) to which they (innately) belong. I think most people know what (who) they are and what (who) they are NOT in this respect - without the help of a fragrance.

    Superimposed on all this is our cultural conditioning. The fragrance industry in the 1950s, 60's, & 70's (when I grew up) found it advantageous to drill into us a clear distinction between "male" and "female" scents. Society at that time didn't allow for fuzzy borderline confusion.

    Thankfully this rigidity seems to be relaxing towards the recognition that a scent can smell good, interesting and sophisticated without having to smell obviously masculine or feminine. I think it is possible to explore wearing fragrance as an art - rather than as a means of proclaiming male / female polarity (a practice which can easily come across as 'over-kill' IMHO).

    Today I happen to be wearing Azzaro pour Homme. The opening is too roughly 'masculine' for my taste but the drydown is more restrained and very nice actually. It wouldn't bother me one bit if I smelled this on a woman.
    Last edited by Delmar; 6th April 2010 at 03:49 PM.

  16. #256

    Default Re: gender sensibilities

    Quote Originally Posted by petruccijc View Post
    So it's alright to give a woman flowers for her birthday?
    Since they have some innate desire for the sex organs of some poor plants, cut off and given to them in a bunch, it's obviously fine to give women flowers.
    Personally, I find them to ephemeral and have never given them on a birthday (much to the annoyance of my wife - she and others have had to put up with bottles of perfume instead).
    Cheers,
    Renato

  17. #257

    Default Re: gender sensibilities

    Quote Originally Posted by actiasluna View Post
    Of course it depends. One of the best gifts (from the receiver's point of view) was when I gave my hubby a big bouquet of carnations, Stoke City Football Club colored red and white. It was the thought behind it that he appreciated.

    And whenever my sweetie gives me flowers (or a Cub Cadet lawn tractor) I appreciate each equally. Perhaps this makes me odd, in that I don't evaluate gifts based upon how much is spent for them... I get your point that it is the thought that goes into it... but the cost is not relevant IMO.
    I'd appreciate the Lawn tractor more than the flowers.
    Which would you like better, a bottle of well chosen perfume or an expensive bunch of flowers?
    Renato

  18. #258
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    Default Re: gender sensibilities

    Quote Originally Posted by petruccijc View Post
    So it's alright to give a woman flowers for her birthday?
    It's alright to give a woman whatever she wants on her birthday. Many women would welcome flowers. Most men I know wouldn't.

    Why does that seem like "stating the obvious?"
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  19. #259
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    Default Re: gender sensibilities

    Quote Originally Posted by DWFII View Post
    It's alright to give a woman whatever she wants on her birthday. Many women would welcome flowers. Most men I know wouldn't.

    Why does that seem like "stating the obvious?"
    Because it is not the obvious, Barney.
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  20. #260
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    Default Re: gender sensibilities

    Quote Originally Posted by petruccijc View Post
    Because it is not the obvious, Barney.
    It is in the world I live in, cully...and the world my father lived in, and his father before him, time out of mind.

    I don't begrudge you the right to create (if you can) a "brave new world" that defies convention and all the scientific evidence suggesting that you're spitting into the wind. But until then you still have to live in this one. And I suspect that refusing to recognize the "obvious" is, at least, not a survival trait.

    But every form of refuge has a price. Mine too. Are you willing to pay it...without complaint?
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  21. #261
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    Default Re: gender sensibilities

    Quote Originally Posted by DWFII View Post
    Many women would welcome flowers. Most men I know wouldn't.
    But WHY NOT? I'm not trying to drag this issue but I honestly want to know. Why wouldn't men welcome gifts of flowers?

    I have received flowers from 3 different women at 3 different points in my life. And each time I felt flattered as these uniquely beautiful gifts are especially thoughtful as they acknowledge my uncommon ability to appreciate beauty in all forms, irrespective of 'gender sensibilities'. And I found these 3 women rather exceptional for daring to think outside of the box. I suppose other men may feel differently about receiving flowers?
    Last edited by Diamondflame; 6th April 2010 at 04:31 PM.

  22. #262

    Default Re: gender sensibilities

    I actually think cut flowers look nice - like in a vase. It is VERY COMMON here in Scandinavia to receive flowers when friends come for a visit. You would be considered very odd if you took offense at being given flowers - regardless of your gender. lol

  23. #263

    Default Re: gender sensibilities

    Quote Originally Posted by DWFII View Post
    It is in the world I live in, cully...and the world my father lived in, and his father before him, time out of mind.

    I don't begrudge you the right to create (if you can) a "brave new world" that defies convention and all the scientific evidence suggesting that you're spitting into the wind. But until then you still have to live in this one. And I suspect that refusing to recognize the "obvious" is, at least, not a survival trait.

    But every form of refuge has a price. Mine too. Are you willing to pay it...without complaint?
    No offense meant when I say the following: Your world seems to be quite a constricted box in which to live, and when you say it defies convention and scientific evidence to think otherwise, I don't agree at all. There are places in which to live where your idea of how the world works may be applicable... but not mine (even though this is the very buckle of the Bible Belt). Sometimes it's all about your inner attitude, confidence, and not giving a damn what others think, as far as I'm concerned.

    In other words, (and I'm exaggerating to make a point) nobody's going to drag me behind a pickup because I wear Chanel Pour Monsieur or because I give flowers to my boyfriend. (although they might if I tell them my views on religion and politics, but I'm not going there as that's off-limits talk here.)
    Last edited by actiasluna; 6th April 2010 at 08:10 PM. Reason: TYPO
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  24. #264
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    Default Re: gender sensibilities

    Quote Originally Posted by Renato View Post
    Uhhmm - let's see, it's your birthday and you wake up expecting something nice be given to you on your birthday - the way you've thought about things and given others presents on your birthday.

    A person important in your life comes up to you and doesn't have a book/CD/DVD/Concert tickets/ bottle of scotch/ bottle of liqueur/ a bottle of fragrance/ car tools/ power tools/ magazine subscription/ aftershave and deodorant set etc, but instead has an expensive bunch of flowers (that will wilt and be tossed out in a couple of days).

    Just how high on your list of priorities would that bunch of flowers have been?
    Would you rate the person as thoughful and creative, or thoughtless and lazy?
    Renato
    I appreciate any gift that I am given, including flowers that have been given to me on more than one occasion. But maybe I am not as materialistic as others are.
    Last edited by petruccijc; 6th April 2010 at 05:56 PM.
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  25. #265

    Default Re: gender sensibilities

    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondflame View Post
    But WHY NOT? I'm not trying to drag this issue but I honestly want to know. Why wouldn't men welcome gifts of flowers?
    Some males are more concerned with their sense of masculinity than they are with others' feelings. Apparently such behavior is now considered acceptable, although I suppose that refusing a gift of flowers is one of many ways to recognize the end of a relationship.

    That said, it would be more appropriate to give a nice houseplant to a bachelor that one doesn't have a close relationship with (live if possible, plastic if you know a living plant would be doomed.) Also, I have indeed known women who'd happily accept a lawn tractor (For the record, diamonds are cheaper than a good lawn tractor)

  26. #266
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    Default Re: gender sensibilities

    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondflame View Post
    But WHY NOT? I'm not trying to drag this issue but I honestly want to know. Why wouldn't men welcome gifts of flowers?

    I have received flowers from 3 different women at 3 different points in my life. And each time I felt flattered as these uniquely beautiful gifts are especially thoughtful as they acknowledge my uncommon ability to appreciate beauty in all forms, irrespective of 'gender sensibilities'. And I found these 3 women rather exceptional for daring to think outside of the box. I suppose other men may feel differently about receiving flowers?
    Hmmm...well, I suppose "welcome" may have been too strong a word. I think if someone gave me flowers out of the blue, I be bemused. I like flowers. I love the smell of rose and lily of the valley and even the chocolate fragrance of some orchids...coming from the flowers. But in the end, I guess I'd end up wondering "what the hell I can do with them!?"

    Thinking about this...I suspect that one of the genetic aspects of gender sensibility is the male perception of space and time. Men tend to be more utilitarian in their day to day outlook. I addressed this in a previous post in this thread.

    Some famous psycho-sociologist once postulated, if I recall it correctly, that men look at the world from the apex of a expanding triangle; women from the base of the triangle. Lots and lots of ramifications to that idea...

    PS...my wife doesn't like to receive flowers either...not on her birthday nor even on Valentines Day. So I just bake her a cherry pie for Valentines day.
    Last edited by DWFII; 6th April 2010 at 06:25 PM.
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  27. #267
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    Default Re: gender sensibilities

    Quote Originally Posted by actiasluna View Post
    No offense meant when I say the following: Your world seems to be quite a constricted box in which to live, and when you say it defies convention and scientific evidence to think otherwise, I don't agree at all.
    Several of your posts seem to be imputing motives for people that are too personal for you to have any basis for making other than wishful thinking or speculation.

    If people refuse to accept the scientific research that has been done...by some fairly credible women scientists...without hard evidence to refute it, one is left suspecting that no amount of facts will convince them to abandon the fantasy world that they have constructed for themselves.

    One can't concede, on one hand, that men and women are different--have different brain organizations, different bio-chemical pathways, etc.,--and then throw out all the implications that threaten one's world view. It's not a rational response.
    Last edited by DWFII; 6th April 2010 at 06:35 PM.
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  28. #268

    Default Re: gender sensibilities

    Quote Originally Posted by DWFII View Post
    It is in the world I live in, cully...and the world my father lived in, and his father before him, time out of mind.

    I don't begrudge you the right to create (if you can) a "brave new world" that defies convention and all the scientific evidence suggesting that you're spitting into the wind. But until then you still have to live in this one. And I suspect that refusing to recognize the "obvious" is, at least, not a survival trait.

    But every form of refuge has a price. Mine too. Are you willing to pay it...without complaint?
    I think the problem I have with your stance, is the fact that you continue to go back to this scientific nonsense. I'm all for science, but in this instance we've already established the existence of cultural pressures, what proof do you have that these cultural pressures are based in scientific fact? There are many things which need not be explained to the masses, the origin of societal norms is one of them. They just are. And I except that, and abide by the overwhelming majority of them, in fact I tend to fall into the camp that doesn't like to wear feminines. But I have no qualms whatsoever with defending others completely natural right to do so. Again, I'll present this question to you. If all fragrances existed in a world without marketing, and all came in simply labeled laboratory-esque bottles. Would you, or anyone else be able to identify if the clear liquid inside was for men or women? I highly doubt it.
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  29. #269

    Default Re: gender sensibilities

    Quote Originally Posted by petruccijc View Post
    I appreciate any gift that I am given, including flowers that have been given to me on more than one occasion. But maybe I am not as materialistic as others are.
    I attended a professional awards ceremony where recipients--both male and female--were presented with plaques AND bouquets of flowers. The men were delighted with their awards and *surprised* and delighted with their bouquets. Not one man refused his bouquet. Flowers are not just for women; just ask any burly man from Hawaii about wearing the lei.

    It's all perception. There are no genetic/gender absolutes. If memory serves, the OP is a proud wearer of the kilt--in Celtic history, a very manly (and even war-like) article of clothing. The swing of the kilt on a Highland soldier is a virile swagger.

    Other people will offer to differ, as each is entitled to his/her own opinion, that it is nothing more than a man in a skirt swinging his hips. I happen to enjoy seeing a man wear the kilt; the full-dress of a man in an officer's uniform of the 42nd Highland Infantry of the 1840s, is the ultimate in girl-catching, peacock male form: tall feather bonnet, rosettes, garter flashes, dirk (long knife) and sgian dubh (hose knife) and diced hose--worn over muscular legs!

    Again, some people will say, "Ha--still a man in a skirt!" And it's traditional for a Scots-MAN to put a flower in his bonnet--a sprig of heather.

    You see? It is all perception (or even cultural)--and not obsolutes.

    What smells feminine to one person smells masculine to the next.
    Last edited by Primrose; 6th April 2010 at 07:12 PM.
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  30. #270

    Default Re: gender sensibilities

    Quote Originally Posted by mtgprox05 View Post
    I think the problem I have with your stance, is the fact that you continue to go back to this scientific nonsense. I'm all for science, but in this instance we've already established the existence of cultural pressures, what proof do you have that these cultural pressures are based in scientific fact? There are many things which need not be explained to the masses, the origin of societal norms is one of them. They just are. And I except that, and abide by the overwhelming majority of them, in fact I tend to fall into the camp that doesn't like to wear feminines. But I have no qualms whatsoever with defending others completely natural right to do so. Again, I'll present this question to you. If all fragrances existed in a world without marketing, and all came in simply labeled laboratory-esque bottles. Would you, or anyone else be able to identify if the clear liquid inside was for men or women? I highly doubt it.
    Well said
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  31. #271
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    Default Re: gender sensibilities

    Quote Originally Posted by mtgprox05 View Post
    I think the problem I have with your stance, is the fact that you continue to go back to this scientific nonsense. I'm all for science, but in this instance we've already established the existence of cultural pressures, what proof do you have that these cultural pressures are based in scientific fact? There are many things which need not be explained to the masses, the origin of societal norms is one of them. They just are. And I except that, and abide by the overwhelming majority of them, in fact I tend to fall into the camp that doesn't like to wear feminines. But I have no qualms whatsoever with defending others completely natural right to do so. Again, I'll present this question to you. If all fragrances existed in a world without marketing, and all came in simply labeled laboratory-esque bottles. Would you, or anyone else be able to identify if the clear liquid inside was for men or women? I highly doubt it.
    First off, I'm not attacking anyone for wearing whatever they want. That's an assumption that you...and perhaps a few others with private agendas...are imposing on this conversation. So defend "others completely natural right to do so" all you want, I'll not object.

    I have suggested that because men are women are different...on so many levels...that we would naturally tend to prefer different notes.

    As for your question...I know I what I like. And because I don't live in a insulated, cotton-candy world I have a pretty good guess...and educated guess..what most men would prefer, in a general way. I suspect that in a world without marketing, things would pretty much fall out just the same as they are now. If you don't understand markets...and the consequent drive to maximize profit...you won't understand that marketing is just a tool to that end. That means that for the most part, markets and marketing have to respond to demand.Their ability to create demand is far more limited that they would like to believe. And history has proven that over and over again.

    Here's a hypothetical for you...If a man wanted to put on a dress and make-up, for whatever reason...a lark or gender ambiguity...would you be surprise to see him choose a typically feminine fragrance to complete the masquerade? Would you be surprised if he chose Yatagan? Take your time, there's no quiz...answer honestly. And I suspect the same scenario applies if we replace the man with a woman.
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  32. #272

    Default Re: gender sensibilities

    Quote Originally Posted by DWFII View Post
    Here's a hypothetical for you...If a man wanted to put on a dress and make-up, for whatever reason...a lark or gender ambiguity...would you be surprise to see him choose a typically feminine fragrance to complete the masquerade? Would you be surprised if he chose Yatagan? Take your time, there's no quiz...answer honestly. And I suspect the same scenario applies if we replace the man with a woman.
    Perfume notes are still worn according to the perception of the wearer--just as with clothing.

    As much as many will assert (from their cultural viewpoint) that the kilt is manly, other cultures will assert the kilt is a women's skirt. Why do you think the Highland troops were called "ladies from Hell" by their adversaries? Not everyone shares the same gender perceptions.

    It's the same as scent. (Many a young boy has tried his mother's perfume because it's "pretty." Adolescent boys then buy scent according to the marketing, i.e. "machismo," of his scent.) Marketing is a social construct, and has no basis in nature.



    (P.S. I will say again that I *like* the kilt...)
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  33. #273
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    Default Re: gender sensibilities

    Quote Originally Posted by Primrose View Post
    I attended a professional awards ceremony where recipients--both male and female--were presented with plaques AND bouquets of flowers. The men were delighted with their awards and *surprised* and delighted with their bouquets. Not one man refused his bouquet. Flowers are not just for women; just ask any burly man from Hawaii about wearing the lei.

    It's all perception. There are no genetic/gender absolutes. If memory serves, the OP is a proud wearer of the kilt--in Celtic history, a very manly (and even war-like) article of clothing. The swing of the kilt on a Highland soldier is a virile swagger.

    Other people will offer to differ, as each is entitled to his/her own opinion, that it is nothing more than a man in a skirt swinging his hips. I happen to enjoy seeing a man wear the kilt; the full-dress of a man in an officer's uniform of the 42nd Highland Infantry of the 1840s, is the ultimate in girl-catching, peacock male form: tall feather bonnet, rosettes, garter flashes, dirk (long knife) and sgian dubh (hose knife) and diced hose--worn over muscular legs!

    Again, some people will say, "Ha--still a man in a skirt!" And it's traditional for a Scots-MAN to put a flower in his bonnet--a sprig of heather.

    You see? It is all perception (or even cultural)--and not obsolutes.

    What smells feminine to one person smells masculine to the next.
    There are several mis-perceptions, particularly about kilt, here...

    First, no one that I know wearing the kilt swings his hips. It is a function of gait pure and simple. This is akin to people who have never danced Latin thinking that the hip movement in a cha-cha or rumba is the key. To a Latin man hip movement is considered affected--like a heifer ambling down a bumpy road. No deliberate hip movement is involved. It has to do with the way the foot is placed on the ground and weight shifted to it.

    Second, flowers on a bonnet are not the rule. It is the clan plant that is placed on the bonnet. Mine (MacSuibhne) is boxwood....no flowers

    Third, the kilt evolved from a larger garment that was essentially a long and wide and undifferentiated piece of cloth. Looking like and functioning as a blanket and raincoat. As a garment it is older than trousers. It is more nearly concurrent with the leine (sp?) than any other men's wear. And the leine was imply a long tunic.

    Fourth, it was a utilitarian garment for men who did not ride horeseback and had to travel light and warm in adverse conditions. It had nothing whatsoever to do with being a peacock or arousing women's affections. Or for war. And in fact in any instances, Scots went into battle bare-arsed naked.

    It has been said that the kilt made casual fornication easy and diarrhea bearable.
    Last edited by DWFII; 6th April 2010 at 07:47 PM.
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  34. #274

    Default Re: gender sensibilities

    Quote Originally Posted by DWFII View Post
    There are several mis-perceptions, particularly about kilt, here...

    First, no one that I know wearing the kilt swings his hips. It is a function of gait pure and simple. This is akin to people who have never danced Latin thinking that the hip movement in a cha-cha or rumba is the key. To a Latin man hip movement is considered affected--like a heifer ambling down a bumpy road. No deliberate hip movement is involved. It has to do with the way the foot is placed on the ground and weight shifted to it.

    Second, flowers on a bonnet are not the rule. It is the clan plant that is placed on the bonnet. Mine (MacSuibhne) is boxwood....no flowers

    Third, the kilt evolved from a larger garment that was essentially a long and wide and undifferentiated piece of cloth. Looking like and functioning as a blanket and raincoat. As a garment it is older than trousers. It is more nearly concurrent with the leine (sp?) than any other men's wear. And the leine was imply a long tunic.

    Fourth, it was a utilitarian garment for men who did not ride horeseback and had to travel light and warm in adverse conditions. It had nothing whatsoever to do with being a peacock or arousing women's affections. Or for war. And in fact in any instances, Scots went into battle bare-arsed naked.

    It has been said that the kilt made casual fornication easy and diarrhea bearable.
    Yes, it *is* nice to go "regimental," isn't it? LOL! I know enough about the kilt, and, yes, kilts *do* swing when you walk, like it or not. It's those knife pleats, so carefully made to face the wearer's right. (You can always wear those plaid panties called "trews," which is also a term for trousers, esp. to dance the sword dance, or ghille calum, or the Argyll broadswords--those dances will *really* swing the kilt.)

    BTW, there is a song called, "The Swing of the Kilt." Google "swing of the kilt." Scottish country dancers know this one:

    http://my.strathspey.org/dd/crib-comment/1411/

    Finally, even if *your* clan does not wear flowers in the bonnet, some do. Heather and juniper are some options. You are generalising--again.

    Yes, I know all about the origin of the kilt. The "small" modern kilt (with stitched pleats) v. the large kilt worn last in the 18th century. The large, unbelted was an all-purpose garment and a dead soldier could even use his as a burial shroud.

    BTW, the Scots also wore "moggens," footless hose, and fought barefoot.

    However *you* (or I) choose to look at the kilt, there will be some who say, "It's a skirt." All perception...

    P.S. The expression "ladies from Hell" actually went from an insult to a badge of honour! The Germans certainly thought the kilt was a women's skirt. Some people see "genders" in perfume this way, too.

    Go to post #7 in this Scots forum, it talks about the swing of the kilt:

    http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...eaforth-48989/

    BTW, there *are* things made for women expressly--such as some clans having dress plaids (just as some have hunting plaids). These tartans are on a white background and worn only by women--but I have seen American men wearing "dress" plaids in their kilts. I guess no one told them...

    As in plaids and perfumes: wear what *you* like and enjoy it.
    Last edited by Primrose; 6th April 2010 at 08:21 PM.
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  35. #275

    Default Re: gender sensibilities

    Quote Originally Posted by DWFII View Post
    Several of your posts seem to be imputing motives for people that are too personal for you to have any basis for making other than wishful thinking or speculation.

    If people refuse to accept the scientific research that has been done...by some fairly credible women scientists...without hard evidence to refute it, one is left suspecting that no amount of facts will convince them to abandon the fantasy world that they have constructed for themselves.

    One can't concede, on one hand, that men and women are different--have different brain organizations, different bio-chemical pathways, etc.,--and then throw out all the implications that threaten one's world view. It's not a rational response.
    How so? I'm talking about my own perception of the world, which is all I have to refer to. If I disagree with a scientist (whether male or female makes no difference to me) so what? Scientific studies have varying levels of accuracy... whether they are experiential or empirical, etc. etc. etc. and scientific studies of the same subject OFTEN come up with quite different results. Particularly where behavior and psychology are concerned.

    I am responding rationally based upon my understanding of my world, which is apparently quite different from your understanding of yours.

    If you wanna call that a "fantasy" so be it. I believe your world view may also be referred to as such. There's more to human nature than any number of scientific studies can qualify or quantify... just wait a year or two until the next series of studies come out and see.

    Cheers...
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  36. #276

    Default Re: gender sensibilities

    This thread no longer has anything to do with fragrance and everyone is clearly pretty firmly set in their ways - I'm closing it now to avoid going further down this road. Thanks all!
    I'm a colognosaurus. Rawr!

  37. #277

    Default What female fragrances do you think a man can wear? (and vice versa).

    The original Opium by YSL comes to mind. I think Chanel No.5 is pretty unisex. Ombre Rose. I'll think of some others...

  38. #278
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    Default Re: What female fragrances do you think a man can wear? (and vice versa).

    Anything by Guerlain - Shalimar,Mitsouko ,Sous Le Vent...
    In fact I think a man can pull off anything he wants - never mind what the label says !
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  39. #279
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    Default Re: What female fragrances do you think a man can wear? (and vice versa).

    Although discussed a hundred times, this topic is still fun.

    From my wardrobe:

    Guerlain Insolence edt(yes I am crazy, but love it an it gets lot of compliments!!!)
    Guerlain Shalimar edc
    Guerlain Mitsouko edt
    Agent Povocateur edp
    Creed Irisia
    Floris Edwardian Bouquet
    Floris China Rose
    Les Parfums de Rosine Une zest de Rose
    Lalique Perles

    The following are unisex but quite feminine:
    Dipqtyque Oponé
    Bond No.9 West Side
    Bond No.9 West Broadway
    Etat Libre d´Orange Charogne

    Cheers

    Pablo

  40. #280
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    Default Re: What female fragrances do you think a man can wear? (and vice versa).

    His pee pee will fall off if he wears a woman's fragrance!
    Please feel free to check out my Swap Thread - Patou pour Homme, L'Instant de Guerlain PH Extreme, Dior Homme Intense, Pure Malt, Pure Coffee and many more! Click Here For My Swap Thread

  41. #281

    Default Re: What female fragrances do you think a man can wear? (and vice versa).

    Quote Originally Posted by petruccijc View Post
    His pee pee will fall off if he wears a woman's fragrance!
    Now, now, JC... LOL!

    This is truly a tired, worn-out old topic, but a man can wear any scent he chooses to wear, even nicking his wife's Fifi Chachnil...and a woman can a happily borrow her husband's Habit Rouge or Bel Ami...or even have her own bottles of Derby or Equipage.

    For starters, I'd try Guerlain, as Mimi said, with Jicky, Mitsouko and Sous Le Vent for starters.

    In all, forget the gender label and just enjoy the scent.
    Last edited by Primrose; 16th July 2010 at 12:08 AM.
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  42. #282

    Default Re: What female fragrances do you think a man can wear? (and vice versa).

    Quote Originally Posted by Primrose View Post
    Now, now, JC... LOL!

    This is truly a tired, worn-out old topic, but a man can wear any scent he chooses to wear, even nicking his wife's Fifi Chachnil...and a woman can a happily borrow her husband's Habit Rouge or Bel Ami...or even have her own bottles of Derby or Equipage.

    For starters, I'd try Guerlain, as Mimi said, with Jicky, Mitsouko and Sous Le Vent for starters.

    In all, forget the gender label and just enjoy the scent.
    I DO have my own bottle of Derby, thank you very much, as well as PdN New York. When I first started exploring masculines I "gave" them to my male friends so I could enjoy them - now I skip the subterfuge and just get them for myself.

  43. #283

    Default Re: What female fragrances do you think a man can wear? (and vice versa).

    Quote Originally Posted by Perfume_Addict View Post
    I DO have my own bottle of Derby, thank you very much, as well as PdN New York. When I first started exploring masculines I "gave" them to my male friends so I could enjoy them - now I skip the subterfuge and just get them for myself.
    Here, here, Perfume_Addict! I wear my very own Derby, Habit Rouge, Pour Un Homme, Le 3eme Homme, Equipage, Terre d'Hermes, Mouchoir de Monsieur and Parfum d'Habit, plus many more "for men." I enjoy them all! The heck with the label.
    "No sweet perfume ever tortured me more than this." Desert Rose by Sting and Cheb Mami, Album 1999.

  44. #284

    Default Re: What female fragrances do you think a man can wear? (and vice versa).

    Quote Originally Posted by petruccijc View Post
    His pee pee will fall off if he wears a woman's fragrance!
    So what happens when a woman wears a man's fragrance? Ooooh! Don't even wanna go there!

  45. #285

    Default Re: What female fragrances do you think a man can wear? (and vice versa).

    I'm sorry I didn't realize fragrance was gender based. I always wear what I like period.

  46. #286
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    Default Re: What female fragrances do you think a man can wear? (and vice versa).

    In my case...

    These ones I wear with confidence:

    Guerlain's Mitsouko EdT
    Guerlain's Shalimar EdT
    Dana's Tabu
    Worth's Je Reviens
    Chanel Nº 19
    Plus two made by a local company, L'Estress and Relax (funny, there is another cheapy targetted to men that smells the same as L'Estress).

    And this one I regard as more femenine than the previous ones, but I enjoy it nonetheless:

    Magie Noire by Lancôme

    These ones are very femenine IMO, soI don't wear them but I enjoy trying them:

    Paco Rabanne's Calandre
    Chanel Nº 5 - as a matter of fact, I find clear analogies between the top notes in this one, Dunhill 1934 and a dirty cheap local fragrance that Halo would laugh at me if I were to tell him the brandname.
    YSL's Opium - sooner or later I will be buying this one.

  47. #287
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    Default Re: What female fragrances do you think a man can wear? (and vice versa).

    Come on Pollux, tell me....and be sure that, indeed, i will lmao.

    I forgot that I usually wear Daisy by Marc Jacobs, it is uber-feminine to some, but on me it is a fresh, kinda woody cilantro-peppery-green accord.

  48. #288
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    Default Re: What female fragrances do you think a man can wear? (and vice versa).

    a short quote from the book Deluxe- How luxury lost it's luster.
    Labs are known to recycle a scent they really believe in. They adapt their discourse to make it fit the brief and include marketing studies in the pitch that show it has strong approval ratings. Perfume companies will also buy juices that they think are marketable and keep them in reserve until they find the right brand for them. L'Oréal sat on one such essai for three years until Viktor & Rofl chose it for Flowerbomb.

    I was wondering about what if Viktor & Rofl didn't pick Flowerbomb, instead another mens fashion designer chose it and name the fragrance something masculine...Drop-the-F-bomb maybe

    Would it still making the person feel girly when wearing it? i dunno...

  49. #289

    Default Re: What female fragrances do you think a man can wear? (and vice versa).

    In my wardrobe, I have Mitsouko and Shalimar. I wouldn't mind getting more frags that are marketed for women. My choices are:

    Angel by Thierry Mugler
    Agent Provocateur
    Lovely by Sarah Jessica Parker
    Tea Rose by Perfumer's Workshop
    Arpege for women by Lanvin
    Diorella by Christian Dior
    Cuir by Lancome
    Habanita by Molinard
    Bal a Versailles by Jean Desprez
    L'heure bleue by Guerlain
    Apres L'ondee by Guerlain

    Who am I kidding? So silly. I'm pretty sure all of these will be part of my wardrobe someday. The only question is, when? hahaha
    Last edited by volley2; 16th July 2010 at 08:42 AM.

  50. #290

    Default Re: What female fragrances do you think a man can wear? (and vice versa).

    I'm currently wearing
    - Angel Peony - Thierry Mugler (on me this one smells mossy, not floral)
    - L de Lolita Lempicka
    - American Girl - Hopes & Dream by Bath & Body works
    - Incanto Charms (when mixed with CK Euphoria for Men)
    - Alien by Thierry Mugler (aside from the fact that this is a floral fragrance, I find it smells more masculine than other "for men" floral fragrances a.k.a Kenzo Power and Fleur du Male)
    - Flower Bomb (from time to time, this one gives me the "old woman floral" mix with gourmand vibe, so I just wear this one when I want to smell half sexy half old lady lol)
    Last edited by jasonx; 16th July 2010 at 04:24 AM.

  51. #291

    Default Re: What female fragrances do you think a man can wear? (and vice versa).

    of the lady smells i have checked out i think angel for women is pretty easily transferable, d and g light blue for women is talked about a lot,i cannot think of too many offhand the perfumes i have smelled are usually very feminine in my opinion.

  52. #292
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    Default Re: What female fragrances do you think a man can wear? (and vice versa).

    Quote Originally Posted by petruccijc View Post
    His pee pee will fall off if he wears a woman's fragrance!
    LMAO

    And it can only be reattached with Kouros!
    * * * *

  53. #293

    Default Re: What female fragrances do you think a man can wear? (and vice versa).

    I wear Parure Guerlain today, it`s quite great chypre to wear for men.

    Reminds both Mitsouko and 1000 Patou
    Vetiver The Great!!!

  54. #294

    Default Re: What female fragrances do you think a man can wear? (and vice versa).

    Quote Originally Posted by Redneck Perfumisto View Post
    LMAO

    And it can only be reattached with Kouros!
    thank god i have a bottle lol

  55. #295
    Dependent pluran's Avatar
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    Default Re: What female fragrances do you think a man can wear? (and vice versa).

    A quick list:

    Rose Poivree
    Mitsouko
    Sous le Vent
    Diorella
    Bvlgari Black
    1000
    Givenchy lll
    Magie Noire
    Eau de Rochas
    Bel Respiro

    -- Many more.

    _
    Last edited by pluran; 30th July 2010 at 07:08 PM.

  56. #296

    Default Re: What female fragrances do you think a man can wear? (and vice versa).

    Love Bal a Versaille...I feel like an 18th century dandy when I wear it. Hmmmm, Shalimar. I don't know about that one. It seems so ultra femme to me. Really turned on recently to Metal by Paco Rabanne.
    Last edited by colormechris; 16th July 2010 at 08:01 AM.

  57. #297
    Dependent

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    Default Re: What female fragrances do you think a man can wear? (and vice versa).

    I believe the very first "Female-Marketed" scent I fell in love with was Hermes Hiris. Every since Hiris, I've been very opened to "Female fragrances", and have gone on the acquire quite a handful. Of course, I'd only buy and wear what I feel is wearable on myself.

  58. #298
    Dependent pluran's Avatar
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    Default Re: What female fragrances do you think a man can wear? (and vice versa).

    I had some Shalimar edt on the back of my hand the other night and my girlfriend thought it was Bois du Portugal.
    Last edited by pluran; 30th July 2010 at 08:03 PM.

  59. #299
    Basenotes Plus
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    Default Re: What female fragrances do you think a man can wear? (and vice versa).

    Sod pigeonholing - wear whatever your nose appreciates regardless of the gender it is marketed towards.
    Last edited by JON RODGERS; 16th July 2010 at 08:30 AM.

  60. #300
    vita odorifera
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    Default Re: What female fragrances do you think a man can wear? (and vice versa).

    Magie Noire is more "masculine" than some masculine leather frags i have.

    I just smelt the rare Must de Cartier Eau Fine at my favourite hole-in-the-wall. Its going to be mine on Monday! Its marketed as "feminine" but it is a beautiful frag that doesnt feel/smell gender-constrained.

    My wife wears lots of my frags.
    ointments and perfume delight the heart....

    #BBOG!

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