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  1. #1

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    Default Oldest men's fragrance still in production

    I went through the directory to see what some of the oldest fragrances are.

    The oldest I could find still in production is Jean Marie Farina by Roger and Gallet which is described as unisex. (1806)

    Is this one of the oldest known, or are there some recipes that are rumored to be even older?

    EDIT: Now looking at Caswell-Massey I see that Number Six is 1789- but this doesn't show up in the "search by release date." There may be many older than Jean Marie Farina by far...
    Last edited by Dayknight; 9th August 2006 at 04:00 AM.

  2. #2
    Rockford's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oldest men's fragrance still in production

    I don't know if Creed Royal English Leather is the oldest men's fragrance still in production, but it was created in 1780:
    http://www.basenotes.net/ID26121395.html

  3. #3

    Default Re: Oldest men's fragrance still in production

    I thought the original cologne is said to come from Köln, aka Cologne in Germany and it's called . . . somethingorotherwasser Kirschwasswer or something like that. . . it's not too expensive

    Kölnisch Wasser I think is it. . .

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Oldest men's fragrance still in production

    Quote Originally Posted by supermarky
    I thought the original cologne is said to come from Köln, aka Cologne in Germany and it's called . . . somethingorotherwasser Kirschwasswer or something like that. . . it's not too expensive

    Kölnisch Wasser I think is it. . .
    I think you might be referring to 4711 Echt Kölnisch Wasser by Muelhens, which was created in 1792: http://www.basenotes.net/ID26120030.html

  5. #5

    Default Re: Oldest men's fragrance still in production

    funny another thread was started today announcing they are going to stop making the stuff. . .


  6. #6

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    Default Re: Oldest men's fragrance still in production

    Quote Originally Posted by supermarky
    I thought the original cologne is said to come from Köln, aka Cologne in Germany and it's called . . . somethingorotherwasser Kirschwasswer or something like that. . . it's not too expensive

    Kölnisch Wasser I think is it. . .
    ...and Kölnisch Wasser (Koelnisch Wasser) is the German translation for water from Cologn (Cologn water) = eau de Cologne. The story begins in the second half of the 17th century in Cologn, founders: a druggist/perfumer and his nephew, name: Farina; both were immigrants from northern Italy. A 'miracle water', or variations of it, have been manufactured before. The whole trade has been developped in southern regions by Italian pharmacists/druggists, and a connection with monasteries is also plausible.

    The production and export on big scale, a 'market' for it developped around 1700, and 1709 is always reported as the birth year of the Eau-de-Cologne. It was the year the Farinas opened their factory devoted to perfume production. With no copyrights in those days (much secrecy instead) it was not too difficult to copy the product, which was produced at more than one place in Cologn. The name 'Cologn Water' was more like a name of origin for a certain type, of 'miracle water'. The Farinas have been best for maybe 100 years because of their know-how, and good connections to / control of resources in Italy (raw products like herbs and fruit). The house of Muelhens was not a successful competitor until about a decennium later. But to this day they have been the more agressive marketers, and it is no surprise that with the muscles of giant owners (Wella / Procter & Gamble) the story of 'oldest perfume manufacturer' was created and spread. Like so much in the perfume world is based on make-believe, 4711 have created their own myth. One member of the Farina Family moved to Paris early in the 19th century, started a new business there and cooperated with others (Roger & Gallet). Farina Gegenueber (ü=ue) still exists and sells. Next to their cologne they have a Russian Leather scent, 'Russisch Leder', as per the basenotes directory, and originally called 'Russisch Juchten' (a special kind of leather). If you are interested, bn search will find earlier threads on this -last 18 months. There is a production place for Juchten under the Farina license in California, I believe.

    links: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eau-de-Cologne

    http://www.farina1709.com/


    All of this does not answer the question of the oldest men's fragrance: Cologne, not really perfumed then, was used by men and women alike - soap for the well-to-do and nobilty! To answer this for Europe, I think we have to go back to Catharina di Medici and her Venitian(?) perfumers. Now, what she wore may not necessarily be what the male members of the French court may have dabbed on the skin - those were perfume oils, most likely.

    I would guess that the oldest fragrance exclusively for men is to be searched in the hair grooming / shaving area. It may have originated in the mediterranian, or been imported from the near east. (does anyone have access to Vatican archives ?) Creeds Russian Leather is a good candidate. I am surprised that they , or any other company in France or Italy do not claim to be producing the 'oldest' masculine Eau, or perfume. (Houbigant, R&G, Guerlain..., or a manufacturer originating from an old Italian pharmacy? Grant, what does your database say? And while we are at it, for male, female, and both - please, that would be great!
    Last edited by narcus; 9th August 2006 at 09:28 AM.
    'Il mondo dei profumi č un universo senza limiti: una fraganza puo rievocare sensazioni, luoghi, persone o ancora condurre in uno spazio di nuove dimensioni emozionali' L. V.

  7. #7
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    Cool Re: Oldest men's fragrance still in production

    I'm sorry to disappoint you but it wasn't creed!
    It was a fragrance, quote: created by monks in the smallest perfumery in the world on the island of Capri in 1380',(1390 in basenotes directory)and the winner is.......



    CARTHUSIA-FIORI DI CAPRI

  8. #8
    marcos_xs's Avatar
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    Cool Re: Oldest men's fragrance still in production

    Quote Originally Posted by marcos_xs
    I'm sorry to disappoint you but it wasn't creed!
    It was a fragrance, quote: created by monks in the smallest perfumery in the world on the island of Capri in 1380',(1390 in basenotes directory)and the winner is.......



    CARTHUSIA-FIORI DI CAPRI
    And yes ...it's still available...today...isn't that wonderful?

    I know it's an unisex scent..but still....
    Last edited by marcos_xs; 9th August 2006 at 12:00 PM.

  9. #9

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    Default Re: Oldest men's fragrance still in production

    Quote Originally Posted by marcos_xs
    And yes ...it's still available...today...isn't that wonderful? I know it's an unisex scent..but still....
    WELCOME MARCOS!
    Yes, that is wonderful! And you do not disappoint anybody by guiding us very close to the facts! At least that is why I am mainly here, and what I mostly love BN for! Above I was talking from my head concerning mediterranian Europe, Italy, and monks, a mere speculation - now seemingly proven facts!

    @Dayknight: only now I realize there may have been a search function by 'launch date' all along - where is it? The directory has its first (Farina/co Gallet) in 'the 1800s'.

    We are still looking for the oldest male fragrance in production, then? I would additionally be interested in what (European) men wore ind old times, like middle ages and the renaissance, and baroque periods. Commonly you hear that men and women shared frags before 1900. I think this may only partly be true, as I cannot believe that male fragrances should be an invention of the twentieth century. Our noses cannot have changed that much recently. There must have always been a need for vetiver and resins, a need to get away from roses, occasionally .
    Last edited by narcus; 9th August 2006 at 02:53 PM.
    'Il mondo dei profumi č un universo senza limiti: una fraganza puo rievocare sensazioni, luoghi, persone o ancora condurre in uno spazio di nuove dimensioni emozionali' L. V.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Oldest men's fragrance still in production

    I suspect that you have to change the question to what is the oldest men's fragrance that was made for mass production. I'm sure for many many centuries people have made their own fragrances (with varied results probably
    ) but obviously joe shmo's frangrance #1 won't be available anywhere if he never passed it down to his son, etc.

  11. #11
    dirk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oldest men's fragrance still in production

    creed royal english leather COULD NEVER BE 1805!!! i already posted on that subject in detail...

    with no doubt, the oldest fragance still in production is indeed the classical eau de cologne weather by roger et gallet or others, even if it was for pharmaceutical purposes originally and not for scenting the body! oh, i forgot "klosterfrau melissengeist", very weak scent, but built mainly on the same lines as eau de cologne, but being rather spicy...
    si doux, tout musc...

  12. #12

    narcus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oldest men's fragrance still in production

    Quote Originally Posted by dirk
    creed royal english leather COULD NEVER BE 1805!!! i already posted on that subject in detail...

    with no doubt, the oldest fragance still in production is indeed the classical eau de cologne weather by roger et gallet or others, even if it was for pharmaceutical purposes originally and not for scenting the body! oh, i forgot "klosterfrau melissengeist", very weak scent, but built mainly on the same lines as eau de cologne, but being rather spicy...
    1 - The 'classical edc' is not what we are searching, that has already been found, I guess. You seem rather determined concerning REL's launch year: the directory indicates 1780, you suggest 1805 - why?

    2 - Even the year 1805 would be early for a (documented) masculine fragrance. Other than Caswell-Massey who seem to have started on male fragrances in the 18th century, perfume producers concentrated on either female, or shared colognes. CM's first was named '1752' (masculine as per BN directory), but the actual launch year is not known. Their next, called 'Number Six' was launched in 1789 and is therefore also a hot candidate. That was long before Muelhens (4711), as you certainly know.

    3 - And good old Klosterfrau is a herbal, liquid medicine (three spoonfuls a day). It is not meant to be dabbed or sprayed, my friend , ask your doctor or pharmacist!
    Last edited by narcus; 10th August 2006 at 06:13 AM.
    'Il mondo dei profumi č un universo senza limiti: una fraganza puo rievocare sensazioni, luoghi, persone o ancora condurre in uno spazio di nuove dimensioni emozionali' L. V.

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