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  1. #31

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    Default Re: "They laughed when I asked where to get Malle on the cheap!"


  2. #32

    Default Re: "They laughed when I asked where to get Malle on the cheap!"

    Thanks Thrax and MMM.

    I don't think there's anyone who would disagree with scentinell's basic point, certainly not me, but more with the manner in which he makes it.

    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyManMatt
    Excellent post scentemental.
    The fragrances containing real rose oil for instance should be a big exception.
    Many of us saw the tiny bottle of rose absolute that Azsmells pasted from e-bay the other week. The tiniest amount was well over a 1000$ .

    I would guess that Claiborne and such companies actually make proportionally more per bottle than the likes of MPG and Malle.


    MMM
    Absolutely MMM, but there is also a variation within niche companies in terms of how much the unit cost per bottle comes down to depending on the quality and concentration of their ingredients.

    A very general rule of thumb for niche fragrances is usually that the more product out there in the gray market, the lower the unit cost per bottle at the manufacturing stage. Of course, other things come into play, like how much a company limits its distribution, but, like I said, it's a general rule of thumb so it shouldn't be taken as the final statement on determining quality. There are many factors that come into play as I hope to show below.

    A good comparison to illustrate my point is say between Czech & Speake and the newer Creeds. Czech & Speake has decided to limit its distribution, and Creed has gone the opposite direction, SMW even turning up in K-Mart, and that's one of the reason you won't see a tester bottle of Czech and Speake Cuba or No. 88 selling for under $50.00--if you can find one selling for any price at all on the gray market, you'll be lucky--as you will say the same tester bottle of Silver Mountain Water. I have it on good authority that wholesalers get such a bottle for under $20.00. But if you also trust your nose, you can certainly tell the quality difference between say SMW and Cuba (BTW, I am not knocking SMW in any way. I happen to like it quite a bit), which is another reason you won't find a Czech & Speake bottle selling at the reduced prices of many modern Creeds.

    I even heard from a friend in England, who heard from a friend who heard from a friend, that Czech & Speake discontinued production of Dark Rose when they switched to a new production company in England--as opposed to the old on which was located in Italy--because they weren't willing to compromise the formulation with cheaper alternative aoud and rose sources.

    If you smell Czech & Speake Dark Rose, you'll definitely understand what I am talking about when I talk about high quality absolutes and synthetics. I am pretty sure the aoud in Dark Rose is synthetic, but damn it's fine. There is no doubt at all that the rose in Dark Rose is the finest quality rose absolute available. As I noted in a recent post on rose fragrances, Dark Rose trumps any of the Montale aoud line in terms of the quality of both the rose and the aoud. I also suspect that Czech & Speake's basic rose fragrance was discontinued for the same reason.

    There is another dimension in determining the use of quality of ingredients in top end fragrances and that is the way a company operates and conceive of itself. I am mostly 100% sure that Czech & Speake uses extraordinarily high quality ingredients in their fragrances because they don't necessarily conceive of themselves as primarily a perfume house. Czech & Speake are primarily high-end purveyors of bathroom fixtures and their "aromatics" line is seen as a way of enhancing their prestige rather than as its prime money making product. The weren’t offering their aromatics line for almost a year and a half when looking for a new manufacturer. They can, therefore, afford to be more extravagant in their choice and use of high-end ingredients and also in terms of the concentration of those high-end ingredients.

    Finally, I think that if we could actually get a cost analysis sheet of our favorite niche and designer fragrances, we certainly would be very surprised at how much the final retail cost of a fragrance is added cost above initial cost of producing the fragrance as juice pure and simple.

    scentemental


    Last edited by scentemental; 9th September 2006 at 05:11 AM.

  3. #33

    Default Re: "They laughed when I asked where to get Malle on the cheap!"

    Why are we debating about the cost of a fragrance based solely on it's physical constituants?

    You don't pay for the juice, you pay for the nose that creates it. You pay for the creation.

    You're paying for the product as a whole, not just the juice itself, or the bottle, or the name.

    Do you all know what I mean?

    Yeah, a pair of Puma kickers is probably only 35 cents worth of material but you pay for the design, the workmanship, the label. It's the same with fragrances.
    Last edited by myaccolades; 8th September 2006 at 03:33 PM.

  4. #34

    Default Re: "They laughed when I asked where to get Malle on the cheap!"

    Quote Originally Posted by myaccolades
    Why are we debating about the cost of a fragrance based solely on it's physical constituants?

    I am not:

    Quote Originally Posted by scentemental
    Finally, I think that if we could actually get a cost analysis sheet of our favorite niche and designer fragrances, we certainly would be very surprised at how much the final retail cost of a fragrance is added cost above initial cost of producing the fragrance as juice pure and simple.

  5. #35

    Default Re: "They laughed when I asked where to get Malle on the cheap!"

    And don't forget labor costs, costs for insurance, rental for stores and a warehouse space, benefits for employees, taxes, legal fees, etc. etc..., it's just incredible how much money it takes to run even a small business, and it all has to be folded into the product.

  6. #36

    Default Re: "They laughed when I asked where to get Malle on the cheap!"

    And oh, equipment maintenance and repair and upgrades, computers and software, tech consultants, website developer...have I made my point yet???

  7. #37

    Default Re: "They laughed when I asked where to get Malle on the cheap!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Elf
    And don't forget labor costs, costs for insurance, rental for stores and a warehouse space, benefits for employees, taxes, legal fees, etc. etc..., it's just incredible how much money it takes to run even a small business, and it all has to be folded into the product.
    Don't forget the overhead for Frederick's overinflated ego! Those houses on the French Riviera aren't cheap...
    "I exist for myself, and for those to whom my unquenchable thirst for freedom gives everything, but also for everyone, since insofar as I am able to love - I love everyone. Of noble hearts, I am the noblest - and the most generous of those that yearn to give love in return. - I am a human being, I love death and I love life."

    Egon Schiele - Self-Potrait


    My classics: Dior Homme EdT, YSL Rive Gauche PH, Helmut Lang Cuiron, L'Occitane Neroli (vintage), Davidoff Zino, L'Occitane Eau des Baux

    http://www.basenotes.net/wardrobe/2976

  8. #38
    zztopp's Avatar
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    Default Re: "They laughed when I asked where to get Malle on the cheap!"

    I wonder if there is an industry group which can verify claims like :

    "...created from essences of unparalleled quality and contain the highest percentages of natural components in the French perfume industry."

    "...and contains the highest amount of natural tuberose absolute in any fragrance"

    "...has restored the grand art of perfume blending, using only high 18-22 percent concentrations of pure eau de parfums - the long lasting concentrations of the legendary vintage scents of the 1920s and 1930s."

    Can these perfumes be reverse-engineered to verify these claims ?

    Whats stopping a reasonably rich Joe Schmoe from opening up a fragrance business with a snazzy website and start selling cheaply made perfumes to make some money (especially considering that not all fragrances which use such high quality ingredients smell all that different to quite a few discernible noses) ?
    -

  9. #39

    Default Re: "They laughed when I asked where to get Malle on the cheap!"

    I received early this week also 3 x 5ml. samples from Malle, exactly as I requested. I will be testing them this weekend.

    If I really like one of those I will definitely be buying one bottle soon.
    « L'odeur de rose, faible, grâce au vent léger d'été qui passe, se mêle aux parfums qu'elle a mis.»
    [ Paul Verlaine ]
    Wardrobe

  10. #40

    Default Re: "They laughed when I asked where to get Malle on the cheap!"

    I think paying over $1 million for a painting is stupid because all it is is paint.
    (sarcasm)

  11. #41

    Default Re: "They laughed when I asked where to get Malle on the cheap!"

    a polyester pucci shirt selling for 800-1000 at barney's doesn't cost that much more to make than the liz clairborne version for $70

    you are paying for exclusivity with designer/niche, always.

    "my friends don't want to smell ike their maids" more than anything else

  12. #42

    Default Re: "They laughed when I asked where to get Malle on the cheap!"

    First let me apologize to any who took my post as "strident" or otherwise insulting. Not my intent, and not my point. As to the factual issue, I concede that I have not explored all the ways that any given frag might exceed $5 to produce, and there are no absolutes in anything really.

    That said, no one has offered proof in another direction. It's all "what I heard" or that some exotic rose oil costs a whole lot -- without any evidence of what a mfgr might pay for such an oil or how much makes it into a bottle. In most countries, once you get down to the ingredients listed at the bottom or only as "fragrance," the concentration is less than 1% -- by Weight! So, unless the precious stuff is listed up front after alcohol or water, your talking bubkus as to the amount in the bottle.

    But to see how much things really cost, start with the premise that retailers rarely sell at a loss. Then take a bottle of say Bulgari pour homme, a respectable juice I think we can all agree. They produce crates of so-called "testers" that sell for under $20 -- I strongly suspect this is to allow sales at a discount, not that Bulgari got fooled into how many real testers it needed. If we assume the retail markup is 50% (a very low number in this area), then that would leave $10 bucks between the mfgr and the distibutor to get their cut. Knowing this tells me with near metaphysical certainty that the juice can't be costing more than a few bucks. I've seen the same phenomenon with TM Cologne and others -- the main issue being how loosely distribution is controlled, not the cost of the juice.

    If you folks believe that companies like Bulgari are using cheap junk and Malle uses stuff that costs far, far, far more and in large doses, ok, perhaps your right. Neither of us have hard evidence it seems. But over the years the common denominator in price has always been distribution not juice costs. An extravagant frag. once it hits all distribution channels (if it can) gets dirt cheap. I don't think it's reasonable to conclude that everyone is losing money or the ingredient costs just plumetted.

    Someone said earlier that a retailer can get a Creed for $20 and that sounds about right -- if so do you dispute that the juice inside can't possibly have cost more than $5? Seems common sense to me. Gendarme has a reputation for using high quality ingredients, and charges $60-70 for Gendarme 20. Yet when Sephora recently wanted to blow out the line, they sold it for $18 bucks, and I feel pretty good that even then they weren't losing money. Again all of this is not to insult, I'm one of you when it comes to shelling out for the juice, I just try not to think about what it cost to make. Peace.

  13. #43

    Default Re: "They laughed when I asked where to get Malle on the cheap!"

    Quote Originally Posted by scentinell
    Someone said earlier that a retailer can get a Creed for $20 and that sounds about right -- .
    Ahem, I read this and about fell down from my chair. I did not know whether to laugh or cry, actually I wanted to do both at the same time, which by the way is very, very hard to do.

    Scentinell my friend, I am not trying to make fun of anyone by this post. Somebody, somewhere along the line gave you, and that certain someone you mentioned absolutely wrong information, trust me I know the wholesale prices

    Quote Originally Posted by scentinell
    If we assume the retail markup is 50% (a very low number in this area)
    Wrong about this one too.
    When I was an IT consultant, we had a saying "When you assume things, you make an ass out of yourself ". Never, never assume things my friend, find out the reliable and relevant facts first.

    Quote Originally Posted by scentinell
    Yet when Sephora recently wanted to blow out the line, they sold it for $18 bucks, and I feel pretty good that even then they weren't losing money
    They were , and they were not too. Let me explain some retail tricks of big companies. They were selling it under their cost at that price, to get rid of it from their store, so they lost money there. Why did they do that, possible factors :

    1) it was not moving fast enough for them
    2) they bought a lot of it.

    In the long run they felt they would save money if they did that by clearing up shelf space, rent costs money.
    Vijay"Maisonstinky"

  14. #44

    Default Re: "They laughed when I asked where to get Malle on the cheap!"

    then what are the wholesale prices (of creed)?

    and sorry I can't resist at "I even heard from a friend in England, who heard from a friend who heard from a friend," one wonders what the person at the end of that long chain might also know about Richard Gere and the gerbil!
    Last edited by supermarky; 8th September 2006 at 11:34 PM.

  15. #45

    Default Re: "They laughed when I asked where to get Malle on the cheap!"

    Quote Originally Posted by supermarky
    then what are the wholesale prices (of creed)?
    Supermarky, you would have to be within striking distance of me to disclose that, you see my friend I would have to kill you after I tell you .

    Just kidding. It all depends on where and whom you get it from and the size of the bottle, whether its grey market or from the actual distributor. The wholesale prices from the distributor would be very, very high. All I can tell you is that I can't even get a 4.0 tester bottle from the grey market for thrice the price of what scentinell suggested (from a reliable trusted wholesaler), and I am talking wholesale. After a recent transaction I had with a Basenotes member, I won't even go to the grey market for Creeds. So everybody that thinks they are getting the real deal by getting it for............FORGET IT I WONT GO THERE.

    That will open up another can of worms .
    Vijay"Maisonstinky"

  16. #46

    Default Re: "They laughed when I asked where to get Malle on the cheap!"

    Quote Originally Posted by maisonstinky
    Ahem, I read this and about fell down from my chair. I did not know whether to laugh or cry, actually I wanted to do both at the same time, which by the way is very, very hard to do.

    Scentinell my friend, I am not trying to make fun of anyone by this post. Somebody, somewhere along the line gave you, and that certain someone you mentioned absolutely wrong information, trust me I know the wholesale prices



    Wrong about this one too.
    When I was an IT consultant, we had a saying "When you assume things, you make an ass out of yourself ". Never, never assume things my friend, find out the reliable and relevant facts first.



    They were , and they were not too. Let me explain some retail tricks of big companies. They were selling it under their cost at that price, to get rid of it from their store, so they lost money there. Why did they do that, possible factors :

    1) it was not moving fast enough for them
    2) they bought a lot of it.

    In the long run they felt they would save money if they did that by clearing up shelf space, rent costs money.






    Well my good man, please reply with facts and not rhetoric. I used 50% as a figure for a markup on a cosmetic or perfume, I too know something about this and believe this is a realistic estimate. If you have a different figure, please share. As to the Creed, you say you can't get a tester for "thrice" the $20 mentioned in this thread. Well, go down to Fragrance row on Broadway in NYC and you can buy legit Creed -- not testers-- in the $70-$80 range easy, very easy. (E.g., http://www.namebrandsperfume.com/ind...27&submit.y=11 ). I'd be literally astonished if these floor to cieling blowout sellers were paying more than $20 a pop. Of course I can't prove this since I don't have their price list. I also don't doubt that certain retailers playing by the book have to pay a heck of alot more. My only point is "gray market" or not, none of these jokers are losing money, so I think one can safely assume the juice cost a whole lot less than the sale price -- which was the whole point of my original post. Assuming we're not talking about outright theft, the fact that anyone in the distribution chain (authorized or not) can sell for at such low prices is proof to me that the juice cost much less than that. Finally, as to Sephora, if you have proof they lost money on the Gendarme deal, please share. My firm conviction is that while your other points (about motive to clean house) are correct, Sephora didn't lose money. My educated guess is they set the price at or slightly under what they paid -- $18 sounds right to me under that theory. The price was so far under retail it would be stupid for Sephora to take a loss. If the stuff cost them $25/bottle, they probably could have moved it nearly as quick at that price.

  17. #47
    zztopp's Avatar
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    Default Re: "They laughed when I asked where to get Malle on the cheap!"

    I am sure we can trust our friend maisonstinky on these retail issues.

    All I know is that on average, Creed is the most freakin' expensive at retail($198 for a 2.5Oz bottle of Love in White? Goddamn !). Although its my favorite house, its not worth the retail prices. No house is.
    -

  18. #48

    Default Re: "They laughed when I asked where to get Malle on the cheap!"

    One more quick point which I should have added above. I'm not calling anyone, particularly a retailer, a liar about what they might pay for an item. I say this based on real live first hand knowledge: there can be gigantic differences in what retailers pay from store to store and region to region.

  19. #49

    Default Re: "They laughed when I asked where to get Malle on the cheap!"

    Quote Originally Posted by scentinell
    Well my good man, please reply with facts and not rhetoric. I used 50% as a figure for a markup on a cosmetic or perfume, I too know something about this and believe this is a realistic estimate. If you have a different figure, please share. As to the Creed, you say you can't get a tester for "thrice" the $20 mentioned in this thread. Well, go down to Fragrance row on Broadway in NYC and you can buy legit Creed -- not testers-- in the $70-$80 range easy, very easy. (E.g., http://www.namebrandsperfume.com/ind...27&submit.y=11 ). I'd be literally astonished if these floor to cieling blowout sellers were paying more than $20 a pop. Of course I can't prove this since I don't have their price list. I also don't doubt that certain retailers playing by the book have to pay a heck of alot more. My only point is "gray market" or not, none of these jokers are losing money, so I think one can safely assume the juice cost a whole lot less than the sale price -- which was the whole point of my original post. Assuming we're not talking about outright theft, the fact that anyone in the distribution chain (authorized or not) can sell for at such low prices is proof to me that the juice cost much less than that. Finally, as to Sephora, if you have proof they lost money on the Gendarme deal, please share. My firm conviction is that while your other points (about motive to clean house) are correct, Sephora didn't lose money. My educated guess is they set the price at or slightly under what they paid -- $18 sounds right to me under that theory. The price was so far under retail it would be stupid for Sephora to take a loss. If the stuff cost them $25/bottle, they probably could have moved it nearly as quick at that price.
    Scentinell I get your point, yes businesses do sell for a profit, if that is what you are trying to drive at, you are right, wont argue on that point.

    As far as the other points e.g. prices etc I already commented on that and I know all about Fragrance Row in NYC . I won't comment or argue any more on that, in the interest of keeping the thread on the original FM topic
    Vijay"Maisonstinky"

  20. #50

    Default Re: "They laughed when I asked where to get Malle on the cheap!"

    Quote Originally Posted by maisonstinky
    Scentinell I get your point, yes businesses do sell for a profit, if that is what you are trying to drive at, you are right, wont argue on that point.

    As far as the other points e.g. prices etc I already commented on that and I know all about Fragrance Row in NYC . I won't comment or argue any more on that, in the interest of keeping the thread on the original FM topic

    Fair enough, it's all good.

  21. #51

    Default Re: "They laughed when I asked where to get Malle on the cheap!"

    Quote Originally Posted by scentinell
    Fair enough, it's all good.
    you are a good guy indeed .

    And Supermarky you got a good deal on your FM enjoy it .
    Vijay"Maisonstinky"

  22. #52

    Default Re: "They laughed when I asked where to get Malle on the cheap!"

    Quote Originally Posted by supermarky
    generosity schmenerosity
    I couldn't have said it better.

    TNMA
    "Why not seize the pleasure at once?"
    -- Jane Austen (Sun, and Mercury in Sagittarius)

  23. #53

    Default Re: "They laughed when I asked where to get Malle on the cheap!"

    Quote Originally Posted by zztopp
    I am sure we can trust our friend maisonstinky on these retail issues.
    I wholeheartedly concur.

    TNMA
    "Why not seize the pleasure at once?"
    -- Jane Austen (Sun, and Mercury in Sagittarius)

  24. #54

    Default Re: "They laughed when I asked where to get Malle on the cheap!"

    Quote Originally Posted by supermarky
    At least in the thread several did, taunting me with answers like "in heaven" "ask his maids" (got that reply 2x), "just pony up and spend 230" etc . . .

    But, no harm in asking right? in fact, "Ask and ye shall receive", don't they say???

    For you see, a private message from a dear darling basenoter came turning me on to a bottle of Musc Ravageur on concession at a scent store for 121$ delivered!

    Take that Frederick Malle (who wouldn't send me samples after leading me on with the questionairre and responding (as they seem to to so many) "perhaps you could love bigardee concentree or angeliques sous la pluie" (which I suspect are merely the scents that don't do so well in the men's market)!!!

    Also, I found a MUCH nicer salesperson at Barney's than the one who LIED about there being no Malle samples. Maybe with the money I saved I'll pick up a bottle of Avignon from him, since it never seems to go for less than only pennies below retail on ebay....
    I've heard a lot about people getting turned down by way of the dreaded silence or just getting one thing, if not simply spritzed paper strips! I did the questionairre. After the suggestions I responded politely asking for those suggestions as all but one, Angelique Sous la Pluie, were original choices. I'd originally chosen Noir Epices for that position but was a bit scared of it so I went for that one. It's all good as I have a sample, however smaller, of Noir Epices now.

    Anyhow, after a couple weeks went by and I didn't receive anything I wrote them back on a forward of the original response. Next thing I know, despite no reply to that, I received 3 5ml samples. Musc Ravageur, Angelique, and Bigarade Concentree. Loved Concentree, liked Angelique, and despite the adoring fans wasn't crazy about Musc Ravageur. Too saucy for my tastes.

  25. #55

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    Default Re: "They laughed when I asked where to get Malle on the cheap!"

    There are alot of "know it all" here. They seem to think every thing expensive is quality. They should be more supportive in their opinions. Do you and screw the snobs. This is the best fragrance site, but there are many snobs.

  26. #56

    Default Re: "They laughed when I asked where to get Malle on the cheap!"

    a veritable herd/gang of snobs, on occasion! anyway, my outlook has to be somewhat charitable uh? since my own posts are such a constant source of embarrassment... tra la la!

  27. #57

    Default Re: "They laughed when I asked where to get Malle on the cheap!"

    This seems like a really weird discussion to have.


    The meat that is served at the local Denny's doesn't cost that much less than what they serve at 5-stars restaurants. Does that mean that the nice places are somehow 'wrong' or 'immoral' for charging $200 for a steak?

    Market drives price. Sure, the ingredients in a Perkin's omelette cost around $1, but that doesn't mean that the meal should only cost $1.05 or something. Anyone who has worked in production or gourmet foods can tell you that the smaller the run, the higher the prices. It might take me an entire day to make one doohickey at work, but I could make 30 of them in two days if I needed them. The scale of an operation has a huge effect on price.

    And I don't appraise my frag purchases like they were race horses. I'm not buying them for some kind of return on my investment or for the tangible chemical content. I buy frags for the pleasure they bring me, and you can't really put a price on pleasure.


    -ben
    Nihil Obstat Ben


    My Wardrobe

  28. #58

    Default Re: "They laughed when I asked where to get Malle on the cheap!"

    Quote Originally Posted by greyhueofdoubt

    And I don't appraise my frag purchases like they were race horses. I'm not buying them for some kind of return on my investment or for the tangible chemical content. I buy frags for the pleasure they bring me, and you can't really put a price on pleasure.


    -ben
    Thats quite a good point ben
    Of course, I'd assume that there is a point where the pain of losing X amount of dollars does not equal the pleasure of the scent purchased. Lets say SuperscentX costs $400 for 15mL, it would have to be pretty amazing!

  29. #59

    Default Re: "They laughed when I asked where to get Malle on the cheap!"

    issey miyake once said the pricing is part of the piece and I've always felt that the high prices are meant to guarantee that not so many people will have the expensive item. at least that's what I have told people since 1984 when my friends were beyond shocked that I was wearing a SHIRT that cost $90 (perry ellis).

    but I never pay retail, never ever! maybe once in a blue moon... I remember I bought a gaultier shirt at full price in 2003.

    oh and I did pay for 5 bottles of mark birley full price over the course of a few years
    Last edited by supermarky; 6th November 2006 at 11:45 AM.

  30. #60
    zztopp's Avatar
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    Default Re: "They laughed when I asked where to get Malle on the cheap!"

    So, was anyone able to get Malle on the cheap ?
    -

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