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  1. #1

    Default Negative eBay Feedback Threads

    Everyone,
    We've seen a rise in the number of threads relating bad experiences with eBay sellers, and speaking for myself as one mod of the board only, I've taken a light hand removing and editing these.

    I'm going to change that. EBay transactions are personal business. EBay has it's own method for leaving negative feedback. The men's fragrances discussion board is for discussion of men's fragrances--not an additional space to relate unfortunate dealings. Most of all, unless the very unlikely happens, the other party in transactions doesn't know about the negative feedback at Basenotes and has no chance to reply. This is fundamentally unfair.

    I'll treat eBay experiences now under the same direction given by Basenotes rule number six:

    "The Basenotes Community is not a venue for personal or private vendettas. Keep your personal business as just that – personal. This forum is not a venue for the resolution of personal disputes with members or companies."

    So I'll delete threads of eBay feedback now and in the future.

    Thanks for your understanding.
    --Chris
    That girl, that bottle, that mattress and me.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Negative eBay Feedback Threads

    Furthermore, Basenotes has its own repository of Ebay seller feedback in the form of the Post Ebay Seller Experiences Here thread down in the Buying Guide.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Negative eBay Feedback Threads

    Quote Originally Posted by Joel_Cairo
    Furthermore, Basenotes has its own repository of Ebay seller feedback in the form of the Post Ebay Seller Experiences Here thread down in the Buying Guide.
    And that is the place for it, definitly. But I do think Basenotes is the appropriate place for its members to relate their shopping experiences, eBay or otherwise. I have found it invaluable. I'm just wondering if the Moderator will take a similar hand with those threads where members are discussing their experiences with other retail establishments, both brick and morter and internet as surely the same fundemental values apply? (Unfairness to reply, etc.)

    Personally I have found the resource here on the board extremely helpful to me in finding reputable dealers both in internet shops AND ebay. (Many do both.) I'm not so sure I see the harm in members sharing experiences with members. Its what community is for. But I do think that type of thing should be in its own space...

  4. #4

    Default Re: Negative eBay Feedback Threads

    Quote Originally Posted by Trasker
    I'm just wondering if the Moderator will take a similar hand with those threads where members are discussing their experiences with other retail establishments, both brick and morter and internet as surely the same fundemental values apply? (Unfairness to reply, etc.) ...
    Trasker, please call me Chris. Yes, I have removed B&M complaint threads as well. My permissiveness of the eBay feedback on this board has been the exception to the fundamental values in question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trasker
    Personally I have found the resource here on the board extremely helpful to me in finding reputable dealers both in internet shops AND ebay. (Many do both.) I'm not so sure I see the harm in members sharing experiences with members. Its what community is for. But I do think that type of thing should be in its own space...
    I hate a deal gone wrong and a member abused as much as anyone with red blood in his or her veins. For clarity, let me make it clear that this forum is the men's fragrances discussion forum and I will delete posts that are feedback of eBay transactions on it, for the reasons stated above.
    --Chris
    That girl, that bottle, that mattress and me.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Negative eBay Feedback Threads

    Fair enough that this is not the approprite place.

    Could we have some better catagories in the buying guides section please? maybe stickies on ebay in usa, europe, asia or something. one thread for bad experiences and one for good so we could just search them before using a particular seller?
    what do you think?
    "Don’t try to be original. Be simple. Be good technically, and if there is something in you, it will come out. ” - Henri Matisse.

    "Wear R de Capucci" - Hirch Duckfinder

    reviews

  6. #6
    Scentronic's Avatar
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    Default Re: Negative eBay Feedback Threads

    IMO, this board is about all things fragrance. This includes the act of obtaining fragrances. If we can post positive comments about a retailer or seller, urging our friends here at BN to do business with them, then it only makes sense that we should be able to post negative comments on a retailer or seller in order to discourage our friends here from getting ripped off like we did. However, I agree that there is (should be) a better place to post such commentary than just the general fragrance discussion forums. If there is only one thread that comes and goes, that can prevent me or anyone else from getting taken advantage of, I think that it is in our best interest to let it be. I personally would like to see an entire forum for this, or at least a sticky. If I know that there is a seller distributing obvious fakes, I'm going to do everything in my power to make sure they don't succeed, and I'd ask that everyone else do the same. I, for one, am not going to go around kicking dirt at people in a public forum because I had a bad experience, but when someone is obviously ripping people off, I think it is in my own, your, and basenote's best interest to combat this in one way or another.
    Lately I've been wearing:
    Windsor, Bois de Santal, Original Santal, Elixir, Douro, Endymion, Reflection, Arcus, Marwah

  7. #7

    Default Re: Negative eBay Feedback Threads

    I don't understand how there's anything 'personal' about warning people away from bad ebay apples. Feedback on ebay sellers is one of the truly useful aspects of the board.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Negative eBay Feedback Threads

    Gentlemen,
    I have tried hard to explain very clearly.

    Quote Originally Posted by DustB
    Everyone,
    We've seen a rise in the number of threads relating bad experiences with eBay sellers, and speaking for myself as one mod of the board only, I've taken a light hand removing and editing these.

    I'm going to change that. EBay transactions are personal business. EBay has it's own method for leaving negative feedback. The men's fragrances discussion board is for discussion of men's fragrances--not an additional space to relate unfortunate dealings. Most of all, unless the very unlikely happens, the other party in transactions doesn't know about the negative feedback at Basenotes and has no chance to reply. This is fundamentally unfair.

    I'll treat eBay experiences now under the same direction given by Basenotes rule number six:

    "The Basenotes Community is not a venue for personal or private vendettas. Keep your personal business as just that – personal. This forum is not a venue for the resolution of personal disputes with members or companies."

    So I'll delete threads of eBay feedback now and in the future.

    Thanks for your understanding.
    --Chris
    1. EBay transactions are not Basenotes transactions.
    2. EBay has it's own method for negative feedback.
    3. The male fragrance discussion board is not for business deal disputes.
    4. Other parties have no reasonable chance to reply. (There are two sides to stories. How would you like it?)
    5. It is against the rules of Basenotes.
    6. I've indulged these threads in some measure, I regret that decision.
    --Chris
    Last edited by DustB; 11th September 2006 at 09:12 PM.
    That girl, that bottle, that mattress and me.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Negative eBay Feedback Threads

    Quote Originally Posted by hirch_duckfinder
    Fair enough that this is not the approprite place.

    Could we have some better catagories in the buying guides section please? maybe stickies on ebay in usa, europe, asia or something. one thread for bad experiences and one for good so we could just search them before using a particular seller?
    what do you think?
    I have never quoted myself before!

    Any response to this?
    "Don’t try to be original. Be simple. Be good technically, and if there is something in you, it will come out. ” - Henri Matisse.

    "Wear R de Capucci" - Hirch Duckfinder

    reviews

  10. #10

    Default Re: Negative eBay Feedback Threads

    Quote Originally Posted by hirch_duckfinder
    I have never quoted myself before!

    Any response to this?
    Hirch,
    Thanks for your quick up front acknowledgement that this forum isn't the right place for the feedback--I noticed it and appreciated it. Never my intention to ignore it.

    About changes to the site and mechanisms, I leave those questions to Grant, as I mentioned in our PM. We'll see what he has in mind.

    Sorry to ignore your post. I didn't mean to shuck it off.

    Thanks very much,
    --Chris
    That girl, that bottle, that mattress and me.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Negative eBay Feedback Threads

    Thanks to Chris for bringing this up.

    In January, a thread was posted entitled "Post eBay Fragrance Seller Feedback here!". From the start, I thought that the thread could get nasty and almost deleted it - but decided to see how it went. Lately we have seen a glut of "I've been shafted on eBay" type posts.

    Here's how I see it. We like to think of Basenotes as akin to a friendly bar, where we can stroll in and chat to our buddies - maybe rant and rave about the latest Hermès or recommend a niche boutique we've found. In most cases, the bar analogy works quite well.

    The "internet" bar is a little different from your local watering hole. In this bar, the landlord records all of your conversations, transcribes them and publishes them in a daily newspaper, which then gets distributed to everyone in the town.

    You and I can have a nice little conversation in a bar with no problem. When the converstaion is published it is subject to a whole bunch of different laws. Like Libel. In the US forums, such have Basenotes, have a certain degree of protection against what is said on them. They are viewed as the "carrier", like the bar we spoke of earlier. The barman isn't held responsible for conversations held within. In the UK things are different, an Internet forum is a publisher, like a newspaper. In Basenotes case, I am the publisher.

    Here is a recent UK case where a forum is threatened with closure because of what members have said about the work of an author: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/st...839313,00.html

    What has this got to do with posting negative details about eBay sellers? Well it is very easy to get the wrong end of the stick. I've been asked countless times to remove feedback on Basenotes when a member has posted negative feedback in haste, and later realised that they were in the wrong.

    No-one likes being ripped off. And the scum on eBay which do so are the lowest of the low. But my argument is one of fairness. There are two sides to every story and I believe that people should have the chance to tell both sides. JohnnyX may post on Basenotes that eBay user JennyZ is a cheating scumbag as they sent you an empty bottle. Turns out that JohhnyX didn't read the description properly, and JohnnyX was actually in the wrong. Too late now though, JennyZ has been outed on Basenotes as a bad seller. Or maybe SallyM posts on Basenotes that FreddyPumpo took seven weeks to deliver. FreddyPumpo though, had just had his internet connection cut off and cannot get in touch.

    Alternatively maybe you ordered some Chergui but what you actually got was a jam jar full of orange juice.
    The thing is - we (as in me) have no way of telling what the situation is. There is no reasonable way we could police an eBay feedback system on Basenotes without personally investigating into each case. Luckily, eBay has its own feedback system where if you feel you have been wronged you can leave bad feedback. If a seller wants to respond to your negative feedback to voice their opinion they can.

    Its about fairness. Praising someone is different to bashing someone. They aren't equal-opposites (if that makes sense). If someone was bashing you on a website, wouldn't you like to at least be able to respond?
    I hope I'm making sense here. I'm not promoting bad eBay sellers here, but fairness. As well as a keen desire to not get the website shut down!

    I'm going to answer a few of the other points raised here.

    I'm just wondering if the Moderator will take a similar hand with those threads where members are discussing their experiences with other retail establishments, both brick and morter and internet as surely the same fundemental values apply? (Unfairness to reply, etc.)

    I'm not overly keen on bashing of b&m vendors either for the same reasons as mentioned above, but I do allow some give and take on this as while eBay has its own feedback system - other places invariably do not.

    Could we have some better catagories in the buying guides section please? maybe stickies on ebay in usa, europe, asia or something. one thread for bad experiences and one for good so we could just search them before using a particular seller?
    what do you think?

    I really like the idea of this. In fact in an ideal world I could write a program where members could enter the name of a bad ebay seller, or good ebay seller. When the seller gets (say) five votes the name could be published. The trouble is, it could be easily abused and there would be no way for us to police this. It would open us up to all sorts of legal problems, plus - as I've seen on other websites - eBay would ask us to delete the lists.

    If I know that there is a seller distributing obvious fakes, I'm going to do everything in my power to make sure they don't succeed, and I'd ask that everyone else do the same. I, for one, am not going to go around kicking dirt at people in a public forum because I had a bad experience, but when someone is obviously ripping people off, I think it is in my own, your, and basenote's best interest to combat this in one way or another.

    Surely it is more beneficial for you to leave bad feedback on eBay where all potential buyers can see it? We've had a case here on the Basenotes Marketplace (on more than one occaision) where a seller was accused of selling an obvious fake. Turned out it wasn't. We (basenotes) can't know the situation in all cases so how would be decide if this was the case.


    I'm happy to respond to any queries and comments.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Negative eBay Feedback Threads

    I will say that there is adequate info on this site to help people not get ripped off on ebay, aside from the red flags raised over particular sellers. And it amazes me that people on here persist in being tempted when I can only imagine they've seen the posts relevant to this problem.

    I am waiting for a package from a much vaunted ebay seller I got much reassurance about here. Positive feedback from other buyers participating in the same auction is listed with a date of Sept 2 so I am really getting nervous about where my frags are....!! I know from here and ebay the seller is not good about communication, and in fact I've emailed and gotten no response 2x. So I'm forced to do nothing but just go to my mailbox day after day . . . sigh. . . at least the 411 from here gives me some hope in this situation!

    (In fact the reason I have not quite gone away like I said I would is cause I am so frustrated waiting for stuff. Have had a string of really really really slow fullfillments. . . all of stuff I'm positively dying to wear! what does come somehow arrives in reverse order of how desperate I am to use it!)
    Last edited by supermarky; 12th September 2006 at 09:54 AM.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Negative eBay Feedback Threads

    obviously you have to put those legal issues first grant, no problem. shame though, as the ebay feedback system is not a very reliable one (oops, hope that doesn't cause writs to come flying...delete me quick.....).

    so can we have threads where we are allowed to post strictly posative experiences only and encourage everyone to do so?? surely you can't be sued for omission from that??

    cheers,
    Jeff.
    "Don’t try to be original. Be simple. Be good technically, and if there is something in you, it will come out. ” - Henri Matisse.

    "Wear R de Capucci" - Hirch Duckfinder

    reviews

  14. #14

    Default Re: Negative eBay Feedback Threads

    Quote Originally Posted by hirch_duckfinder
    obviously you have to put those legal issues first grant, no problem. shame though, as the ebay feedback system is not a very reliable one (oops, hope that doesn't cause writs to come flying...delete me quick.....).

    so can we have threads where we are allowed to post strictly posative experiences only and encourage everyone to do so?? surely you can't be sued for omission from that??

    cheers,
    Jeff.
    One would hope not. Something for me to think about and look into

  15. #15
    Dependent pluran's Avatar
    Join Date
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    Default Re: Negative eBay Feedback Threads

    I've never been ripped off on ebay. If I do get ripped off, I'm going to take it up with ebay, not spend time talking about it on Basenotes.
    Last edited by pluran; 13th September 2006 at 01:15 AM.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Negative eBay Feedback Threads

    Quote Originally Posted by Basenotes Admin
    Thanks to Chris for bringing this up.

    In January, a thread was posted entitled "Post eBay Fragrance Seller Feedback here!". From the start, I thought that the thread could get nasty and almost deleted it - but decided to see how it went. Lately we have seen a glut of "I've been shafted on eBay" type posts.

    Here's how I see it. We like to think of Basenotes as akin to a friendly bar, where we can stroll in and chat to our buddies - maybe rant and rave about the latest Hermès or recommend a niche boutique we've found. In most cases, the bar analogy works quite well.

    The "internet" bar is a little different from your local watering hole. In this bar, the landlord records all of your conversations, transcribes them and publishes them in a daily newspaper, which then gets distributed to everyone in the town.

    You and I can have a nice little conversation in a bar with no problem. When the converstaion is published it is subject to a whole bunch of different laws. Like Libel. In the US forums, such have Basenotes, have a certain degree of protection against what is said on them. They are viewed as the "carrier", like the bar we spoke of earlier. The barman isn't held responsible for conversations held within. In the UK things are different, an Internet forum is a publisher, like a newspaper. In Basenotes case, I am the publisher.

    Here is a recent UK case where a forum is threatened with closure because of what members have said about the work of an author: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/st...839313,00.html

    What has this got to do with posting negative details about eBay sellers? Well it is very easy to get the wrong end of the stick. I've been asked countless times to remove feedback on Basenotes when a member has posted negative feedback in haste, and later realised that they were in the wrong.

    No-one likes being ripped off. And the scum on eBay which do so are the lowest of the low. But my argument is one of fairness. There are two sides to every story and I believe that people should have the chance to tell both sides. JohnnyX may post on Basenotes that eBay user JennyZ is a cheating scumbag as they sent you an empty bottle. Turns out that JohhnyX didn't read the description properly, and JohnnyX was actually in the wrong. Too late now though, JennyZ has been outed on Basenotes as a bad seller. Or maybe SallyM posts on Basenotes that FreddyPumpo took seven weeks to deliver. FreddyPumpo though, had just had his internet connection cut off and cannot get in touch.

    Alternatively maybe you ordered some Chergui but what you actually got was a jam jar full of orange juice.
    The thing is - we (as in me) have no way of telling what the situation is. There is no reasonable way we could police an eBay feedback system on Basenotes without personally investigating into each case. Luckily, eBay has its own feedback system where if you feel you have been wronged you can leave bad feedback. If a seller wants to respond to your negative feedback to voice their opinion they can.

    Its about fairness. Praising someone is different to bashing someone. They aren't equal-opposites (if that makes sense). If someone was bashing you on a website, wouldn't you like to at least be able to respond?
    I hope I'm making sense here. I'm not promoting bad eBay sellers here, but fairness. As well as a keen desire to not get the website shut down!

    I'm going to answer a few of the other points raised here.

    I'm just wondering if the Moderator will take a similar hand with those threads where members are discussing their experiences with other retail establishments, both brick and morter and internet as surely the same fundemental values apply? (Unfairness to reply, etc.)

    I'm not overly keen on bashing of b&m vendors either for the same reasons as mentioned above, but I do allow some give and take on this as while eBay has its own feedback system - other places invariably do not.

    Could we have some better catagories in the buying guides section please? maybe stickies on ebay in usa, europe, asia or something. one thread for bad experiences and one for good so we could just search them before using a particular seller?
    what do you think?

    I really like the idea of this. In fact in an ideal world I could write a program where members could enter the name of a bad ebay seller, or good ebay seller. When the seller gets (say) five votes the name could be published. The trouble is, it could be easily abused and there would be no way for us to police this. It would open us up to all sorts of legal problems, plus - as I've seen on other websites - eBay would ask us to delete the lists.

    If I know that there is a seller distributing obvious fakes, I'm going to do everything in my power to make sure they don't succeed, and I'd ask that everyone else do the same. I, for one, am not going to go around kicking dirt at people in a public forum because I had a bad experience, but when someone is obviously ripping people off, I think it is in my own, your, and basenote's best interest to combat this in one way or another.

    Surely it is more beneficial for you to leave bad feedback on eBay where all potential buyers can see it? We've had a case here on the Basenotes Marketplace (on more than one occaision) where a seller was accused of selling an obvious fake. Turned out it wasn't. We (basenotes) can't know the situation in all cases so how would be decide if this was the case.


    I'm happy to respond to any queries and comments.
    I've had nothing but good experiences buying from FreddyPumpo on ebay. A+++

  17. #17

    Default Re: Negative eBay Feedback Threads

    I am aware of legal ramifications of libelous posts. I have seen the same scenario on other boards of entirely different topic, and people are always frustrated when good retailers/auctioneers are lauded and the bad ones must simply be...ignored. We bash fragrances themselves left and right. Praise others. If we didn't have this ability, there wouldn't be a board.

    Obviously there have been a rash of fakes or fake suspicion- notably Creed. I think for many here- and I definitely speak for myself- trust our community here far more than ebay feedback. Feedback that can be ill-gotten or just plain uninformed.

    If nothing else, is a list of vendors that members have used -with no postive or negative indication- safe? This would allow users to contact other users via PM to trade notes on ebay seller "gr8creeddeal4u" and totally keep these things off the board. I personally feel the door has to swing both ways- and if there is no bad commentary there can be no good. I really don't prescribe to the "if you can't say anything good don't say anything at all" when it comes to unscruplulous business practices.
    Last edited by Dayknight; 12th September 2006 at 01:46 PM.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Negative eBay Feedback Threads

    Quote Originally Posted by Dayknight
    If nothing else, is a list of vendors that members have used -with no postive or negative indication- safe? This would allow users to contact other users via PM to trade notes on ebay seller "gr8creeddeal4u" and totally keep these things off the board
    now that sounds like a really good idea!
    "Don’t try to be original. Be simple. Be good technically, and if there is something in you, it will come out. ” - Henri Matisse.

    "Wear R de Capucci" - Hirch Duckfinder

    reviews

  19. #19

    Default Re: Negative eBay Feedback Threads

    I agree entirely with Grant. Pirot.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Negative eBay Feedback Threads

    So can YSL sue a bunch of people here for saying Kouros smells like piss?

  21. #21

    Default Re: Negative eBay Feedback Threads

    I can certainly understand not wanting to go up against eBay in a dispute over things written here...but I will mourn the resource this board has been for me in avoiding some of the deplorable selling practices of some vendors there. If eBay would spend some of their considerable resource there we wouldn't have much of the problem....so yes, they do have feedback there but the whole feedback system there is a bit weak. I trust the members here more than there feedback and I am sad I cannot have the trusted opinions here to rely on.

    I still love this place!

  22. #22

    Default Re: Negative eBay Feedback Threads

    I dont know how this thread has gone on to over 3 pages.

    As Chris and Grant mentioned, the Basenotes rules dont allow such threads; it should have ended there (especially when one of the members mentioned a thread specifically devoted to Ebay mishaps).

    As Ebay is not affiliated with Basenotes, and has a track record of controversial dealings when it comes to perfume, starting multiple threads on Ebay dealings would detract from the main focus of the "Male Fragrance" discussion board (as well as other reasons already mentioned my the moderators).

    I agree that such Ebay information is very useful - however if discussed in the forum/thread specifically allocated for it, it would be better.
    -

  23. #23

    Default Re: Negative eBay Feedback Threads

    Quote Originally Posted by zztopp
    I agree that such Ebay information is very useful - however if discussed in the forum/thread specifically allocated for it, it would be better.
    Perhaps but after reading Grant's thread it didn't sound like that was going to be permitted...

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