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  1. #1
    rosbergs3's Avatar
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    Default My dad just told me...

    A couple of weeks ago my dad was down house sitting for me while i was out of town on business. I keep my scent collection in my medicine cabinet and i knew he was going to see it. I wear all types of scents regardless if they are marketed to men or women so i took the obviously feminine bottles out of my cabinet before i left on my trip and hid them very well. When i got back my dad said he really like the "perfumes" i had. He's from Sweden and the word "cologne" is not in his vocabulary. He asked me if he could have one of my bottles since i had so many. I gave him "Winter Delice" by Guerlain. He really enjoys wearing it. Anyway, my point of this thread is he recently told me that many, many years ago he used to wear a scent called "4711". He said it was really popular when he was young. He's 68 now. Also, he said it was from Germany and that it was "made for either men or women".....his exact words. I've never heard of a cologne called "4711". Have any basenoters heard of it? If so, what is it like? I was shocked when my dad said he actually used to wear a "perfume" and could recall its name.
    Awesomeguy

  2. #2
    Thrax
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    Default Re: My dad just told me...

    Its a extremely short-lasting, very very cheap, citrus-y frag. Can be bought for extrememly cheap in monsterous bottles on ebay. I believe it was recently discontinued.

  3. #3

    Default Re: My dad just told me...

    I thought everone's heard of it! Very famous and old. You can find it everywhere on the cheap.

  4. #4

    Default Re: My dad just told me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrax
    Its a extremely short-lasting, very very cheap, citrus-y frag. Can be bought for extrememly cheap in monsterous bottles on ebay. I believe it was recently discontinued.
    the company was recently sold, but not liquidated... it'll be around...

  5. #5

    Default Re: My dad just told me...

    For sure! 4711 is in the Basenotes Directory. I have some, and I've even decanted it for other Basenoters.

  6. #6
    Renato's Avatar
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    Default Re: My dad just told me...

    I think it's the oldest cologne in the world that is still in production.
    It's very good for cleaning one's glasses.
    You've probably smelled it in the little refresher towelettes they give out in airplanes.
    It's mainly used for smelling good between the time you apply it and the time that you are walking out of your house to your car. By the time you've put your seat belt on, it has usually disappeared.
    Renato

  7. #7

    Default Re: My dad just told me...

    INterstesting story because I remember my dad also had a bottle of 4711. I believe they came from Germany? I used to see them at the local drugstores. I'm sure you can still find them where you live. Good story, btw.
    "A great perfume is a work of art, it can lift our days, haunt our nights and create the milestones of our memories. Fragrance is liquid emotion. And that never goes out of fashion. " MICHAEL EDWARDS

  8. #8

    narcus's Avatar
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    Default Re: My dad just told me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Renato
    I think it's the oldest cologne in the world that is still in production....
    It is not. FARINA is older by 100 years, also in the German city called Cologne.

    Quote Originally Posted by barfbarf
    the company was recently sold, but not liquidated... it'll be around...
    Who was it sold to, you happen to remember?
    Last edited by narcus; 8th November 2006 at 08:41 AM.
    'Il mondo dei profumi č un universo senza limiti: una fraganza puo rievocare sensazioni, luoghi, persone o ancora condurre in uno spazio di nuove dimensioni emozionali' L. V.

  9. #9

    Default Re: My dad just told me...

    Its a classic Eau de cologne. There is a thread about these at the moment, if he likes them and you want to get him a gift, you may find some ideas there.
    "Don’t try to be original. Be simple. Be good technically, and if there is something in you, it will come out. ” - Henri Matisse.

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  10. #10

    Default Re: My dad just told me...

    4711 is the most well known German cologne - unfortunately IMO, as it is a cheap smelling imitation of a good quality Eau de Cologne with (more) natural ingredients. It was the most popular of its kind since the late 19th century in the context of new middle class consumer demands for affordable fragrances and their ready vailability due to quasi-industrial production techniques. I think every American tourist in Cologne winds up at the incredibly schticky 4711 "museum" and store, where they reproduce the marketing myths invented during the 1880s about a monk giving a member of the Muehlens family the secret recipe as a wedding gift etc. pp. Actually Muehlens started out as one of the imitators of the genuine Farina Cologne manufacture, buying the name off some unrelated Mr. Farina in order to pose as the real thing. Roger et Gallet, which had acquired a French Farina branch in th 1850s (ehich is why their Extra vielle bears the name) sucessfully sued this Farina-Muehlens in the 1880s over name rights, after which the company changed its name to 4711. 4711 is the signature fragrance of the stuffy postwar 1950s&1960s, of the (from a present perspective) tacky signs of returining prosperity during the Wirtschaftswunder, of German "Spießertum" and structural conservatism despised by the rebelling youth, of (lower) middle class aunties and grannies freshening up after devouring Schnitzelsandwiches on the train. I suppose to foreign visitors it is the fragrant contribution to the pantheon of black forest cuckoo clock, Bratwurst, Lederhosen, Oktoberfest and Rhine castle clichés.
    The Muehlens family sold out to German cosmetics giant Wella in the 1990s which in turn was acquired by Procter & Gamble who are trying to sell off 4711 (doesn't suit their portfolio) and cancelled any PR and advertising activity (4711 used to have an elaborate and utterly corny Christmas campaign). As a culturally refined snob and political lefty (hey, I'm a reincarnation of Dwight MacDonald) I personally detest everything 4711 stands for in the context of fragrance culture, taste culture and German culture and society. Its (unlikely) disappearance would not be mourned. I wish more people were interested in the few good perfumes Germany has to offer (it's debatable how German these are, of course but let's mention Jil Sander Man Pure & Background, Etienne Aigner No. 2, René Lezard Identité and the original Farina EdC - I hear the drugstore frag Tabac Original is valued as well). Just my two Pfennigs.
    Last edited by the_good_life; 8th November 2006 at 10:12 AM.
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  11. #11

    Default Re: My dad just told me...

    Good post Good Life. You and narcus are really putting out some great information about this classic eau de cologne.

    I have odd/fond memories of 4711 because my Grandmother wore it all the time. So any Christmas where I had to buy her a present, 4711 was the reliable gift — I think I was around 7 when I first became aware of it. But I never liked the smell of it, and in England at the time it was very definitely not a unisex fragrance. It was solely for older women. It was meant to have a cooling effect, so women would dab it on their handkerchiefs and wipe their brow or neck with it. Later she thought that it had been changed and refused to wear it anymore. So the presents languished on her dressing table.

    Amazing, my grandmother was in India during WWII but she didn't seem to discover any of the incredible fragrances from that continent — or if she did, she didn't take them home with her. Sad and fond.

    Eluard

  12. #12

    Default Re: My dad just told me...

    Both 4711 and Farina colognes are nephews of the mithycal "Aqua Admirabilis" created by the italian perfumer Giampaolo Feminis.

  13. #13
    apekrul's Avatar
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    Default Re: My dad just told me...

    Here in Belgium, 4711 is really a monument of perfumery! Grandmothers (including mine) used it for almost everything from adding a few shots to the laundry to using it instead of Vicks Vaporub when I had a cold.
    Nothing beats 4711 when it comes to feeling fresh and getting that out-of-the-shower feeling.

    We recently found a small stash of about 4 bottles at a friend's house and we were actually planning on using it over the next couple of weeks, just to get the people warmed up again for this milestone in perfume-history. Aaaah... the memories


  14. #14
    Scentronic's Avatar
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    Default Re: My dad just told me...

    I really like this one, from what I can remember. It is very cheap, but don't let that scare you away from trying it at least.
    Lately I've been wearing:
    Windsor, Bois de Santal, Original Santal, Elixir, Douro, Endymion, Reflection, Arcus, Marwah

  15. #15
    Renato's Avatar
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    Default Re: My dad just told me...

    Quote Originally Posted by narcus
    It is not. FARINA is older by 100 years, also in the German city called Cologne.
    Well, how about
    "It's the oldest cologne you are likely to find in typical stores around the world that is still in production".
    Renato

  16. #16

    Default Re: My dad just told me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Renato
    Well, how about
    "It's the oldest cologne you are likely to find in typical stores around the world that is still in production".
    Renato
    No With a name change in the 1880s and what probably amounts to several (cost and quality-reducing) massive reformulations I don't believe it fairly deserves this noble title. I concede that this could be said about virtually every "old" fragrance - the much vaunted "traditions" invoked by so many houses are ever so often after-the-fact inventions and pure PR-driven mythology. I would like to know if there are any fragrances that have been made genuinely and without interruption according to an original recipe dating back to at least the 18th century? Even the original Farina belonged to R&G and was only reacquired by the family in 1999 after Gallet was swallowed (by Gucci, was it)
    My Wardrobe
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  17. #17

    Default Re: My dad just told me...

    I can report that I saw several bottles, ranging in size from 50 ml to 1 L (!) at perfumania. The biggest bottle cost around $46, just to give you an idea of cost. I'm not sure if they have a website or anything. I was kind of kicking myself for not testing it while I was there, but my brain was fried at that point from an entire day of sampling.


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  18. #18

    narcus's Avatar
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    Default Re: My dad just told me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Magnifiscent
    Both 4711 and Farina colognes are nephews of the mithycal "Aqua Admirabilis" created by the italian perfumer Giampaolo Feminis.
    In essence I agree: aqua mirabilis! It is only that 4711 was a shameless steal from the Farinas. It all goes back to the fundamental discovery of ethanol, I think. Ethanol based aquae were widely established in Italy when the Farinas started their buisiness as immigrants in Coelln (Cologne). The Cologne was not that much a matter of formulas but (1) the traditional (Italian) know-how of citrus scent extracting (2) Well organized import of suitable fruits and herbs. Unfortunately, I have no access to Italian sources of texts on profumo making in your country (lamentable latin knowledge, and I know of no translations). I wouldn't be surprised if several very old aqua producers could still be traced in Italy (SMN!).

    Quote Originally Posted by the_good_life
    4711 is the most well known German cologne - unfortunately IMO, as it is a cheap smelling imitation of a good quality Eau de Cologne with (more) natural ingredients. It was the most popular of its kind since the late 19th century in the context of new middle class consumer demands for affordable fragrances and their ready vailability due to quasi-industrial production techniques. I think every American tourist in Cologne winds up at the incredibly schticky 4711 "museum" and store....
    I am glad you and I are on the same path here! From the first days on BN, I have tried my best to reinstall some truths about Farina, and it's successors. There is little that one can do against a century of shameles propaganda on the part of Muelhens heirs first, and Procter and Gamble later. Are you sure it was R & G Paris wo sued 4711 and not the (German) Cologne House JM Farina? I never saw your version of the story written anywhere, not even in Wikipedia

    In Germany 4711 was not all that popular until maybe 1960. Muelhens gained market shares by establishing it (and Tosca for the ladies, 'Sir' for gents) under the Christmas trees! They really made beautiful, seasonal advertising and packaging, something others (Farina, Mouson, Uralt Lavendel) failed to do. The competitors lost much of their home market that way. All these waters grew popular with the democratization of cosmetics and fragrance after, say 1950. It was more of an elitist thing before, but names like D'Orsay and Houbigant were not forgotten just because of Hitler and Stalin. There had always been a German society and tradition where French and Italian perfumes were for perfuming, and watery cologne, or lavendar (often no name bottles) for various other purposes.

    Tabac Original was Germanys (late) response to Old Spice in 1959. The After Shave and Deo is also sold in drugstores here. But you find the EDP and EDT still at the cologne counter. A German classic for 47 years now, and excellent. Others: I agree, we better just pretend Joop has never existed! I think we would all be surprised if we knew which brands are in fact made in Germany (H&R, Symrise etc.). But ignoring Hugo Boss would almost be like America ignoring Calvin Klein. And how about Lagerfeld, or Bogner for men my friend? (The laurel for Helmut Lang goes to Austria, I believe...grossdeutsch! .
    edit: Lang added, 'Aigner' deleted.

    http://www.farina1709.com/
    Last edited by narcus; 9th November 2006 at 02:22 PM.
    'Il mondo dei profumi č un universo senza limiti: una fraganza puo rievocare sensazioni, luoghi, persone o ancora condurre in uno spazio di nuove dimensioni emozionali' L. V.

  19. #19

    Default Re: My dad just told me...

    Narcus,
    you're right about the other Germans of course, didn't think of them off the cuff. I was imprecise about the lawsuit against Muehlens. Gallet sued&won in 1880 about Farina name rights in France, the Farina site states that thewy lost the right in Germany one year later, but not whether thss resulted from the French case or a separate German lawsuit. Fascinating history, I would like to interview Mr. Farina some time.
    My Wardrobe
    II est de forts parfums pour qui toute matičre/Est poreuse. On dirait qu'ils pénčtrent le verre.

  20. #20

    Default Re: My dad just told me...

    Yes, the ever reasonable (and utterly classic) Tabac is worlds, worlds, worlds, WORLDS superior to 4711 (a.k.a. Furniture Stripper Residue "R" Us).

    Peggy: "Right now, we have to get to the mental institution. Something terrible has happened."
    Latrelle: "What?"
    Peggy: "Brother Boy has tried to kill himself. He jumped out of his bedroom window."
    Latrelle: "Isn't he only on the second floor?"
    Peggy: "Yes, but he hit his head on a lawn gnome."
    Fr. Sordid Lives: The Series
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  21. #21
    Joel_Cairo's Avatar
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    Default Re: My dad just told me...

    Quote Originally Posted by the_good_life
    Actually Muehlens started out as one of the imitators of the genuine Farina Cologne manufacture, buying the name off some unrelated Mr. Farina in order to pose as the real thing.
    Hence the nervous insistence behind the label "Echt Kolnisch Wasser"

  22. #22

    narcus's Avatar
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    Default Re: My dad just told me...

    Quote Originally Posted by the_good_life
    Narcus,
    ....I was imprecise about the lawsuit against Muehlens. Gallet sued&won in 1880 about Farina name rights in France, the Farina site states that they lost the right in Germany one year later, but not whether this resulted from the French case or a separate German lawsuit. Fascinating history, I would like to interview Mr. Farina some time.
    Is this the source you used (?) : 'Nachdem Roger & Gallet in Paris in einem Prozess Mülhens 1880 verbieten ließ, in Frankreich den Namen Farina zu benutzen, musste er 1881 auch in Deutschland den Firmenname Franz Maria Farina ablegen. Er stellte die Hausnummer 4711 , die 1794 bei der Durchnummerierung seinem späteren Hause zugeteilt worden war, in den Vordergrund.....'
    http://www.eau-de-cologne.com/

    (details here also on chemical versus natural ingredients towards the end of the nineteenth century). Other details
    related to the Italian (Veneto?) origin, however, remain nebulous, also exact details concerning Farina Paris and R & G later. The biggest myth is their present status. Can you buy Farina anywhere between Kassel and Frankfurt? I only found R & G's Farina in the directory, not the one in Cologne.

    To my knowledge Farina (F) and 4711 are still both in the hands of Procter & Gamble (Wella-Cosmopolitan) now. It may be their cemetery. Farina would go into 300 years of existence in 2009! Does anybody know how The Roger & Gallet Farina compares to their Extra Vieille? Theoretically they should both be the same cologne.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farina_gegen%C3%BCber

    Last edited by narcus; 8th November 2006 at 06:14 PM.
    'Il mondo dei profumi č un universo senza limiti: una fraganza puo rievocare sensazioni, luoghi, persone o ancora condurre in uno spazio di nuove dimensioni emozionali' L. V.

  23. #23

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    Default Re: My dad just told me...

    I used to have a big bottle of 4711. Eckard's drugstore sells it and so does Dillard's dept. store.
    I used to bathe in this stuff during the heat of summer. I also used to freshen up the house with it. My grandmother has a small old bottle of in her antique bottle collection.

    Great stuff! I may go out and grab some this week.

    S

  24. #24

    Default Re: My dad just told me...

    What a sweet story about your Dad. I remember the 4711 cologne from the local "Rexall" Drugstore. I think I must have bought a bottle for my own Dad at some point. Alternating that with English Leather and Old Spice under the Christmas tree!
    "Like a lobster with a pearl in its claw, the beet held the jasmine firmly without crushing or obscuring it. Beet lifted jasmine, the way a bullnecked partner lifts a ballerina, and the pair came on stage on citron's fluty cue. As if jasmine were a collection of beautiful paintings, beet hung it in the galleries of the nose, insured it against fire or theft, threw a party to celebrate it. Citron mailed the invitations." Jitterbug Perfume by Tom Robbins p. 189

    What I am loving right now: Shalimar vintage extrait, Chanel Bois des Iles, Chanel no. 22, Le Labo Iris 39, Guerlain Iris Ganache

  25. #25

    narcus's Avatar
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    Default Re: My dad just told me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Joel_Cairo
    Hence the nervous insistence behind the label "Echt Kolnisch Wasser"
    True, but actually 'echt'(genuine) and 'original' are protected terms within the patent rights law.
    'Il mondo dei profumi č un universo senza limiti: una fraganza puo rievocare sensazioni, luoghi, persone o ancora condurre in uno spazio di nuove dimensioni emozionali' L. V.

  26. #26

    Default Re: My dad just told me...

    Quote Originally Posted by narcus
    Is this the source you used (?) : [COLOR=#000000]'Nachdem Roger & Gallet in Paris in einem Prozess Mülhens 1880 verbieten ließ, in Frankreich den Namen Farina zu benutzen, [U]musste (details here also on chemical versus natural ingredients towards the end of the nineteenth century)
    Yes

    Quote Originally Posted by narcus
    The biggest myth is their present status. Can you buy Farina anywhere between Kassel and Frankfurt? I only found R & G's Farina in the directory, not the one in Cologne.
    No, but my perfume store in Frankfurt is trying to make a deal, since they pride themselves on carrying small craft-based brands, so they're in touch.

    Quote Originally Posted by narcus
    To my knowledge Farina (F) and 4711 are still both in the hands of Procter & Gamble (Wella-Cosmopolitan) now. It may be their cemetery. Farina would go into 300 years of existence in 2009! Does anybody know how The Roger & Gallet Farina compares to their Extra Vieille? Theoretically they should both be the same cologne.
    My bottle says "Extra Vieille -Jean Marie Farina," i.e. EV is JMF. Do not know whether JMF name only was an older labeling or a different product or whether the JMF name is used on any other RG products.

    Mr. Farina contacted me (his name is Johann Maria btw. ) after I put a Farina EdC bottle on ebay which I thought was genuine, but was actually a fake. I thanked him for the info but haven't communicated with him since. I will ask him 1. to what extent they deliver outside Cologne or whether they have any distribution going on. 2. whether he might not be interested in giving an e-mail interview on the past&present of his company, which would be interesting to basenoters, no? I also have friends in Cologne who could probably pick some up, but it's so damn expensive - the price of authenticity, I suppose.

    If I weren't so preoccupied with my habilitation, I would ask for permission to rummage through the archives that still exist to write a paper on the Farina history. The libel cases would be particularly interesting, as well as the trade connections to Italy and France in terms of acquiring superior raw materials for the cologne production.
    My Wardrobe
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  27. #27

    narcus's Avatar
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    Default Re: My dad just told me...

    enjoy the pictures !

    http://duftwaesserchen.wb4.de/index.html?NoFrame=1

    ...and this is more myth around bottles, dedicated to our Italian friends
    Giampaolo Feminis / Venezia-Colonia was my motive. Does anybody know this Lorenzo?
    I never got a reply from him.
    http://www.lorenzodanteferro.com/italiano/history.html




    Last edited by narcus; 9th November 2006 at 01:52 PM.
    'Il mondo dei profumi č un universo senza limiti: una fraganza puo rievocare sensazioni, luoghi, persone o ancora condurre in uno spazio di nuove dimensioni emozionali' L. V.

  28. #28

    Default Re: My dad just told me...

    Quote Originally Posted by narcus
    enjoy the pictures !

    http://duftwaesserchen.wb4.de/index.html?NoFrame=1

    ...and this is more myth around bottles, dedicated to our Italian friends
    Giampaolo Feminis / Venezia-Colonia was my motive. Does anybody know this Lorenzo?
    I never got a reply from him.
    http://www.lorenzodanteferro.com/italiano/history.html





  29. #29

    Default Re: My dad just told me...

    Thank you so much for the links narcus!
    I am a big fan of 4711 BTW.

  30. #30

    Default Re: My dad just told me...

    And another story: at the perfume museum in Winkel they have the original tubeshaped bottles of 4711 the soldiers of Napoleon (so they claim) were wearing in their riding boots. Someone injured? Splash of 4711 to disinfect the wound. Someone ill? A liberal dose of 4711 was poured into the mouth of the soldier. It seemed to help Mind you, I don't think I would feel any better when someone forced 4711 down my throat, but as a remedy for cleaning wounds it is not such a bad idea
    The bird of paradise alights only upon the hand that does not grasp

  31. #31
    apekrul's Avatar
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    Default Re: My dad just told me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Riannon
    Someone ill? A liberal dose of 4711 was poured into the mouth of the soldier.
    Let's hope they used ethanol in those days

  32. #32
    Bakerloo Line's Avatar
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    Default Re: My dad just told me...

    Quote Originally Posted by apekrul
    Let's hope they used ethanol in those days
    I'm sure I read this on Basenotes somewhere, but in "the old days" the alcohol used in EdT was grape spirit - I'm guessing a kind of tasteless, colorless grape vodka or grappa.

    If you remember Gone with the Wind, Scarlett gargles with perfume to mask the scent of liquor on her breath.


  33. #33

    Default Re: My dad just told me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bakerloo Line
    I'm sure I read this on Basenotes somewhere, but in "the old days" the alcohol used in EdT was grape spirit - I'm guessing a kind of tasteless, colorless grape vodka or grappa.

    If you remember Gone with the Wind, Scarlett gargles with perfume to mask the scent of liquor on her breath.
    Probably grappa... after all the venitian region is still nowadays one of the greatest producer of grappa and it makes no wonder that at that time it would have used also for making scents...

  34. #34

    Default Re: My dad just told me...

    Grappa I can deal with -- but 4711 poured down my throat? Death seems far preferable.

    Peggy: "Right now, we have to get to the mental institution. Something terrible has happened."
    Latrelle: "What?"
    Peggy: "Brother Boy has tried to kill himself. He jumped out of his bedroom window."
    Latrelle: "Isn't he only on the second floor?"
    Peggy: "Yes, but he hit his head on a lawn gnome."
    Fr. Sordid Lives: The Series
    *****
    "Live, live, live! Life is a banquet, and most poor suckers are starving to death."
    Auntie Mame
    [/B]

  35. #35

    Default Re: My dad just told me...

    Quote Originally Posted by the_good_life
    4711 is the most well known German cologne - unfortunately IMO, as it is a cheap smelling imitation of a good quality Eau de Cologne with (more) natural ingredients....I wish more people were interested in the few good perfumes Germany has to offer (it's debatable how German these are, of course but let's mention Jil Sander Man Pure & Background, Etienne Aigner No. 2, René Lezard Identité and the original Farina EdC - I hear the drugstore frag Tabac Original is valued as well). Just my two Pfennigs.
    Only good thing about 4711 is that it inspired Mugler Cologne.

    Don't forget Jil Sander Feeling Man. One day I hope to smell it again.
    "I exist for myself, and for those to whom my unquenchable thirst for freedom gives everything, but also for everyone, since insofar as I am able to love - I love everyone. Of noble hearts, I am the noblest - and the most generous of those that yearn to give love in return. - I am a human being, I love death and I love life."

    Egon Schiele - Self-Potrait


    My classics: Dior Homme EdT, YSL Rive Gauche PH, Helmut Lang Cuiron, L'Occitane Neroli (vintage), Davidoff Zino, L'Occitane Eau des Baux

    http://www.basenotes.net/wardrobe/2976

  36. #36
    zztopp's Avatar
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    Default Re: My dad just told me...

    Quote Originally Posted by manicboy
    Only good thing about 4711 is that it inspired Mugler Cologne.

    Don't forget Jil Sander Feeling Man. One day I hope to smell it again.
    4711 isnt THAT bad - its short on longevity, but it is a decent lemony citrus which is good for freshening up. Maybe you guys had experience with old stock...
    -

  37. #37

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    Thumbs up Re: My dad just told me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Riannon
    And another story: at the perfume museum in Winkel they have the original tubeshaped bottles of 4711 the soldiers of Napoleon (so they claim) were wearing in their riding boots. Someone injured? Splash of 4711 to disinfect the wound. Someone ill? A liberal dose of 4711 was poured into the mouth of the soldier. It seemed to help Mind you, I don't think I would feel any better when someone forced 4711 down my throat, but as a remedy for cleaning wounds it is not such a bad idea
    An army equipped with 4711 - that was the real cause for the battle of Waterloo! If Rumsfeld had learned his historical lessons well, he might still be in office.
    (once more: it was Farina, guys , not Muelhens' 4711! One of the recent links has shown those vials*). And the novelty of the Cologne was in fact ethanol, and the small vials were in fact given by Napoleon to his officers. This was a novelty and it may dawn on you also, that this must be looked at as a mile stone in modern, masculine perfumery).
    *= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farina_gegen%C3%BCber

    http://images.google.ch/imgres?imgurl=http://www.farina1709.com/farinagegenueber.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.farina1709.com/&h=188&w=567&sz=32&hl=de&start=16&tbnid=WtMEiifdsL _KOM:&tbnh=44&tbnw=134&prev=/images%3Fq%3DRosoli%2Bflacon%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Dd e%26lr%3D%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-USfficial%26sa%3DN
    Last edited by narcus; 12th November 2006 at 07:27 AM.
    'Il mondo dei profumi č un universo senza limiti: una fraganza puo rievocare sensazioni, luoghi, persone o ancora condurre in uno spazio di nuove dimensioni emozionali' L. V.

  38. #38

    Default Re: My dad just told me...

    Sorry about the mix up. I think indeed it were the officers this was presented to and not the 'common soldier'. But is it possible that Muelhens 'borrowed' the idea? I have looked at the sites you have given. The bottles in the perfumemuseum had remains of colours like the Muelhens bottles and also a different shape. Like a tube but wider at the top and small at the end.
    The bird of paradise alights only upon the hand that does not grasp

  39. #39

    narcus's Avatar
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    Default Re: My dad just told me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Riannon
    Sorry about the mix up. I think indeed it were the officers this was presented to and not the 'common soldier'. But is it possible that Muelhens 'borrowed' the idea? I have looked at the sites you have given. The bottles in the perfumemuseum had remains of colours like the Muelhens bottles and also a different shape. Like a tube but wider at the top and small at the end.
    http:
    Even the 4711 website shows the Rosoli Flacon. But it's blurred enough, so you cannot recognize which one that might be. Around 1800 there were many Farina copies around, and I do not know since when those bottles were produced. As 4711 didn't produce Cologne until after the turn of the century (and had the nerve to even use the Farina name), why should their flacons not be a 'Chinese copy' also? Things were so bad that J.M.Farina signed his production by hand (bottle by bottle).

    Remains to wonder which of the 'Cologne Museums' was first, Farina, or Muelhens/4711 - grotesque!

    http://www.4711.com/de/click_history.php


    http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:18...oli-Flacon.jpg
    Last edited by narcus; 13th November 2006 at 09:02 AM.
    'Il mondo dei profumi č un universo senza limiti: una fraganza puo rievocare sensazioni, luoghi, persone o ancora condurre in uno spazio di nuove dimensioni emozionali' L. V.

  40. #40

    Default Re: My dad just told me...

    Quote Originally Posted by narcus
    http:
    .....why should their flacons not be a 'Chinese copy' also? Things were so bad that J.M.Farina signed his production by hand (bottle by bottle).
    Thank you for all the links. Now I will have to return to that perfume museum to scrutinize that bottle, even if I have to break the glass of the cabinet They told the story, well, let them prove it is the right story.
    I think we have enough material here to write a novel like Suskind
    The bird of paradise alights only upon the hand that does not grasp

  41. #41

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    Default Re: My dad just told me...

    As far as I have heard, Süskind used many a detail from Cologne archives to picture Paris and some people there. I've always imagined the Antonia episode in The Tales of Hoffmann with those flacons. One hears them clearly through the music when that Mephisto-Doctor kills Antonia. It's set at the beginning of the 19th century also.
    'Il mondo dei profumi č un universo senza limiti: una fraganza puo rievocare sensazioni, luoghi, persone o ancora condurre in uno spazio di nuove dimensioni emozionali' L. V.

  42. #42

    Default Re: My dad just told me...

    Thank you! I just love your fountain of knowledge! Maybe a thought to start a new thread about this subject? Who knows what else can be unearthed. Hmm, I am a very curious person, I suppose
    The bird of paradise alights only upon the hand that does not grasp

  43. #43

    CologneJunkie's Avatar
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    Default Re: My dad just told me...

    This thread inspired me to seek this out. I KNEW my Bruce Smith Drug would carry this, & sure enough. I actually bought a box of three 4711 bar soaps instead of the cologne. I may go back & pick some of the cologne up, though. I can't really see myself wearing it (based on what the soaps smell like) as a fragrance, but I like the idea of adding some to a load of laundry!
    "Wait...is David Bowie really God?" - Penelope Garcia

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