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  1. #1

    Default Do we stink for the "outside"world?

    I'm certain most Basenote members on this board can apreciate a good quallity fragrance., but what if "normal "people , you know, the people we meet or hang around with at work, your girlfriend, wife etc... don't? Or maybe they think we have horrible taste in scents?

    For example, yesterday evening, I was shopping with my wife , and I was wearing Fou d'Absithe. She said that that fragrance I had on was way too strong! I was thinking; "TOO STRONG?, my god woman! It's a L'Artisaaaan!! and by the way, I thought FdA was not THAT strong in my opinion, in fact I had put it on that morning, so I thought it would be gone a long time ago". she didn't like it, anyway.

    Next, we were at the smelly shop and after the usual ritual of avoiding the nice SA's, I was testing Guerlain's Heritage , some Chanels etc. and was ignoring Kenneth Cole, Tommy 10 etc.Ofcourse I let wifey smell them. In short, she didn''t like the Heritage at all and she said she never, ever liked any Chanel. She said "most Chanels made me feel sick"On top of that,...my little daughter let her smell Kenneth Cole "Reaction" and they both thought that smelled great!! It's a conspiracy, I tell ya!! Get me a laywer!!

    Ofcourse I went for a new bottle of Chanels Anteus,( he, he,) cause I hadn't worn that since 1990. But still, it would have been nice if she liked it too.
    Made me wonder, if I wear a niche fragrance or Guerlain to work, do people think I smell horrible? Is the actual taste in fragrances of the outside world differend from ours, in this community?
    Last edited by eric; 10th November 2006 at 12:11 PM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Do we stink for the "outside"world?

    Interesting topic!
    Well yes, I do think that a lot of people are offended/confused by certain fragrances we wear, because they are unfamiliar with stuff that is a little outside the box. No person will be harmed by a mass-released, inoffensive scent, maybe even because they are taught that it's 'good' if they run into so many people wearing it? Society sometimes tells people to despise the unknown and love the common. I think that marketing plays a large role too.

    It probably also has to do with the fact that most people are not very connected to or concerned with fragranes. They think in terms of "that smells good" or "that smells bad", and they really won't be able to tell a Calvin Klein from a Lutens. Except that they'll probably think the latter is 'wrong'.

    However.. I've also met a lot of people who enjoy a nice, unique fragrance and who are sick and tired of the same old boring stuff. I guess it depends on your interests.
    "Perfume is the dream that carries me."

    There is always the sky to look at

  3. #3

    Default Re: Do we stink for the "outside"world?

    I agree wholeheartedly with BrothaG in that most people out there are -- like it or not -- lemmings who'll pretty "go along to get along," esp. when it comes to holding up bland, inoffensive, poorly made scents as the status quo.

    It's kind of hard to trust the average Joe in his opinion of Dzing! when he MIGHT have one dusty, unused bottle of Tommy sitting atop his toilet. It's equally difficult to put much faith in the average gal's assessment of Le Baiser du Dragon when she thinks that Heaven Sent (which she wears maybe twice a year) is just "the cat's pajamas."

    It's no different than asking an American brought up on Wonder Bread and pale, drip coffee to appreciate a true Parisian croissant and a tiny cup of great ristretto in the morning. Maybe one in ten will have the native taste required to appreciate the vast gulf of differences therein, but nine out of ten will toss the croissant, dump the ristretto, and loudly demand their Wonder Bread and brown water.

    The true aficionado says, "I know what I like -- and that's that." That's why a true scenthound can and will appreciate a cheap scent as well as a niche scent -- it's all about the quality and the construction and the complexity (or the stunning simplicity, as the case may be). The average Joe, on the other hand, will likely buy whatever his local SA has spritzed on a card and pushed hamfistedly in his general direction, or, more commonly yet, whatever swill someone has thoughtlessly purchased and dropped into his Christmas stocking.
    Last edited by tvlampboy; 10th November 2006 at 02:15 PM.

    Peggy: "Right now, we have to get to the mental institution. Something terrible has happened."
    Latrelle: "What?"
    Peggy: "Brother Boy has tried to kill himself. He jumped out of his bedroom window."
    Latrelle: "Isn't he only on the second floor?"
    Peggy: "Yes, but he hit his head on a lawn gnome."
    Fr. Sordid Lives: The Series
    *****
    "Live, live, live! Life is a banquet, and most poor suckers are starving to death."
    Auntie Mame
    [/B]

  4. #4

    Default Re: Do we stink for the "outside"world?

    Well............. I can think of several non-mainstream frags that bring me close to gagging; Passage de Enfer, Yatagan, Sables, Tam Dao, Ambre Sultan, etc. so I can understand non Basenoters turning their noses up at some of the scents we wear and love.

    Gotta agree with you on Fou de Absinthe. What a wonderful scent! IMO, your DW's comments would be grounds for divorce:brolly: !


    Dan
    [SIZE=3][SIZE=2]"We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission; which is the stage of the darkest periods of human history, the stage of rule by brute force." Ayn Rand...[/SIZE][/SIZE]

    "The essence of fascism is to make laws forbidding everything and then enforce them selectively against your enemies."
    [URL="http://www.basenotes.net/wardrobe/2755"][COLOR=green]
    [INDENT]Daily Wardrobe [/INDENT][/COLOR]
    [/URL]

  5. #5

    Default Re: Do we stink for the "outside"world?

    Quote Originally Posted by eric
    I'm certain most Basenote members on this board can apreciate a good quallity fragrance., but what if "normal "people , you know, the people we meet or hang around with at work, your girlfriend, wife etc... don't? Or maybe they think we have horrible taste in scents?
    Can't say, I am in the lucky position that my gf likes Kouros best on me with M7 Fresh and Le Male trailing closely. And she hates Boss Bottled and Acqua di Gio. God damn it, that means her taste is probably better than mine by Basenotes standards!

    Quote Originally Posted by eric
    For example, yesterday evening, I was shopping with my wife , and I was wearing Fou d'Absithe. She said that that fragrance I had on was way too strong! I was thinking; "TOO STRONG?, my god woman! It's a L'Artisaaaan!! and by the way, I thought FdA was not THAT strong in my opinion, in fact I had put it on that morning, so I thought it would be gone a long time ago". she didn't like it, anyway.
    Did she actually smell you or some oversprayed A*Men on another guy? I mean, if you put it on in the morning, why didn't she complain earlier?

    Quote Originally Posted by eric
    Is the actual taste in fragrances of the outside world differend from ours, in this community?
    YES.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Do we stink for the "outside"world?

    fakepurse, no , she hadn't smelled me yet that day , cause we both work. Seems your current gf has excelent taste.
    Lightninrod, LOL! as soon as I heave enough money for a laywer ,....well, I might just as well use that money on some good scents.

    Brotha G and tvlamp,I think you hit the nail on the head, could't agree with you guy's more. Brotha G, how nice to know people with similar taste in fragrances.
    I'm afraid I only work with average joe's , not much women unfortunately. They don't smell the difference between Aqua di Gio and Hermes .

    The cruelty...., sigh.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Do we stink for the "outside"world?

    I don't know why, but people around where I live don't like perfume, and liken it to radioactive contamination. about 60-70 percent of the offices I work in as a temp had banned frags. I always under apply lest I offend (and get frags banned in my current work). I guess it's just because I worked in the business offices in the healthcare sector, and I think they get freaked out about anything that could possibly set off peoples allergies and migraines. (except smoking. EVERYBODY smoked at those places...)

    As far as the GF goes, she thinks I'm in the closet because of my frag addiction, but she likes that I buy stuff for her. She has come to appreciate the good stuff, and what most people would consider strange. But she's always making strange connections like: "Gendarme smells like bowling ally shoe disinfectant." or "B-men smells like old deodorant mixed with bug spray" Grrr!

    Other than women I've dated, I have gotten 0 compliments in the year since I started doing this.
    24, San Francisco, California USA

  8. #8

    Default Re: Do we stink for the "outside"world?

    I think it's snobbish to assume that what you like is too good for "the lemmings". Yes, there are some who know nothing outside their world of Wonder Bread and reject anything else, but true quality makes itself evident by its nature, and most people know it when they experience it.

    I never worry about stinking; my usual application is one or two sprays to the chest, and if anything, my scent goes largely unnoticed. My sorta-girlfriend liked Ungaro III on me, though.. and when she smelled my Zino, she demanded some for herself and told me I wasn't allowed to wear it for anyone else because it smelled too good! *laughs*

  9. #9

    Default Re: Do we stink for the "outside"world?

    I wasn't being snobbish; I was merely pointing out that most people like what they like because they've been told to like it. The same is true in trivial stuff like clothing and landscaping, not to mention the "biggies" like religion and politics. Like it or not, most people out there hold opinions based upon what their families and peers have told them. "You need to wear Tommy. All the guys I know do." "Grandma gave me this Stetson in my Christmas stocking, and I wear it to please her."

    And no, most people DON'T have native noses -- hence the popularity of Riunite over that of top-rate Merlot, and the ubiquitousness of Aqua Velva over equally inexpensive but great scents (e.g., Caron Pour Un Homme, etc.). If this is "snobbish" of me, then let's just assume that the "art" of Thomas Kinkade equals that of Van Gogh, that Bentley cars equal Yugos, and so forth. And let's then assume that any art critic or automotive buff who says otherwise must be "snobbish."

    Most people neither know nor care about good scents. Once they've been exposed, the number who know and care may well go up significantly (hey, even that off-the-cuff estimate one in ten is significant in a nation of 300 million citizens). Then again, it may not in some areas/demographics. Just a fact, that's all. Political correctness aside, please.

    Now, if I suggested that all people out there save us scenthounds were/are lemmings by their very nature, that would be different -- THAT would be snobbish. But I'm not saying that, not by any means. I once thought that One Man Show was a great fragrance, and that it didn't get much better than a splash of bay rum at my grandfather's barber shop. (I also once thought Members Only jackets and mountains of viscous hair gel rendered me cool.) It's all a matter of exposure, desire to learn, and training (this almost invariably self-directed, and in spite of social stigma).

    Does that mean that I can now only appreciate Lutens and Montales and Creeds, and can only eschew Canoe and bay rum? By no means, nor do I condemn those who only know Canoe and bay rum. But, again, it's folly to suggest that everyone out there will know quality when they smell it. I know a great many people who've been exposed to vintage Baker furniture but who insist that Herculon recliners with built-in cupholders are "good furniture" and "the only way to go." If recognizing vintage Baker as the better designed and made furniture makes me a snob, then so be it. To suggest that everyone out there will instantly gravitate towards the vintage Baker over the Herculon just goes to show that you don't know the American public very well. It's no different with scent -- yesterday's Jade East is today's Tommy is tomorrow's who-knows-what in the pantheon of mass-marketed scents that most people buy without a second thought.
    Last edited by tvlampboy; 10th November 2006 at 05:53 PM.

    Peggy: "Right now, we have to get to the mental institution. Something terrible has happened."
    Latrelle: "What?"
    Peggy: "Brother Boy has tried to kill himself. He jumped out of his bedroom window."
    Latrelle: "Isn't he only on the second floor?"
    Peggy: "Yes, but he hit his head on a lawn gnome."
    Fr. Sordid Lives: The Series
    *****
    "Live, live, live! Life is a banquet, and most poor suckers are starving to death."
    Auntie Mame
    [/B]

  10. #10

    Default Re: Do we stink for the "outside"world?

    Quote Originally Posted by tvlampboy
    I wasn't being snobbish; I was merely pointing out that most people like what they like because they've been told to like it
    ...and that they lack the capability to recognize or appreciate anything better.

    Wear the shoe.

  11. #11

    Talking Re: Do we stink for the "outside"world?

    You have brought up an excellent topic for thought.

    Yes, I believe we do!

    What I have noticed:

    1)If we're talking about the smell of it only
    Most "normal" people (that is people who are not into perfume) like things that are familiar to them and that includes what is selling well at the particular time-frame, what they smell around them.
    In the 80s lots of people appreciated Kouros, because it was all the rage. Obsession too, Poison also. In the 90s lots of people became hooked on aquatics and everywhere you went there was some permutation of Aqua di Gio and Eau d'Issey. Although at the start of the trend people were jolted by the difference, with enough conditioning and maketing and actual use of the product by those more attuned to the market's call, they became the proper thing, the good smelling thing.
    Now the same is happening with the fruity florals and the gourmands, especially the easy vanillic ones.
    Poeple are just used to certain smells and not much else.
    I have a friend who is interested in perfume somwhat; and yet, goes for such insipid juices, always trying to find something exceptional, but never listening to anything I say actually. He tests what I give out, rejects it as weird, goes out to department stores to find something he likes, falls in love for the first 10ml and then wants something else again, not satisfied....you get the gist.

    I have never ever received any compliment on my niches (and I do have good ones, which I know smell good!!), but I do get lots of compliments on mainstream frags. It baffles me....
    Only SO who has some level of appreciation (otherwise, how could he be SO?)and is in close quarters has complimented more obscure things, but still not the very weird ones, however masterful.

    2)If we are talking about the perfume as a whole
    Most people if you talk to them about something that is outside the realm of Dior, Chanel, Calvin Klein etc, think the product is not very worth it, even if you say it is expensive and exclusive. If they don't see it advertised and lots of people going ahhhh over it, they do not give it the seal of approval. It's as if it is less desirable somehow. They see perfume as a status symbol. And that status symbol has to be recognisable by anyone. Same as someone who opts for Chanel sunglasses over Alain Mikli. Everyone will know Chanel sunglasses when they see them, not everyone will know Mikli, even if the man is THE master of glasses bar none.
    In fact they remain doubtful, even if they have liked the smell. This is especially true of low-end fragrances (Coty is a good example for those who don't know the history behind)
    Blind tests are very entertaining in this regard!
    Last edited by helg; 10th November 2006 at 10:18 PM.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Do we stink for the "outside"world?

    Today I said to one beautiful woman: I'll show you an alternative
    The name is - tea for two. she smelled.
    said: smells like dentists cabinet

    she herself wore something from Armani.
    She smelled very nice


    In the evening I was at the theatre with another nice girl.
    I wore Eau noire.
    She said- it's milk, dark chocolate and spices (pepper)
    "PLAIN LIVING, HIGH THINKING" O.W., De Profundis
    Real beauty: 1) Frederic Malle 1-20 2) Chanel Egoiste 3) YSL Opium pour Homme edp 4) TF Noir de Noir

    Noses: 1) Jacques Cavallier 2) Maurice Roucel

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Do we stink for the "outside"world?

    Quote Originally Posted by eric
    I'm certain most Basenote members on this board can apreciate a good quallity fragrance., but what if "normal "people , you know, the people we meet or hang around with at work, your girlfriend, wife etc... don't? Or maybe they think we have horrible taste in scents?

    For example, yesterday evening, I was shopping with my wife , and I was wearing Fou d'Absithe. She said that that fragrance I had on was way too strong! I was thinking; "TOO STRONG?, my god woman! It's a L'Artisaaaan!! and by the way, I thought FdA was not THAT strong in my opinion, in fact I had put it on that morning, so I thought it would be gone a long time ago". she didn't like it, anyway.

    Next, we were at the smelly shop and after the usual ritual of avoiding the nice SA's, I was testing Guerlain's Heritage , some Chanels etc. and was ignoring Kenneth Cole, Tommy 10 etc.Ofcourse I let wifey smell them. In short, she didn''t like the Heritage at all and she said she never, ever liked any Chanel. She said "most Chanels made me feel sick"On top of that,...my little daughter let her smell Kenneth Cole "Reaction" and they both thought that smelled great!! It's a conspiracy, I tell ya!! Get me a laywer!!

    Ofcourse I went for a new bottle of Chanels Anteus,( he, he,) cause I hadn't worn that since 1990. But still, it would have been nice if she liked it too.
    Made me wonder, if I wear a niche fragrance or Guerlain to work, do people think I smell horrible? Is the actual taste in fragrances of the outside world differend from ours, in this community?
    Some clever Roman once said "De gustibus non est disputandum," which roughly translates as "There's no point in arguing about taste."

    Of course, those of us who are sophisticated, which as far as I know, includes only me , know what's awesome and what's poop; those who don't agree with us have all their taste in their mouth, as the saying goes.

    OK, I'm taking my tongue out of my cheek now.
    Yr good bud,

    JaimeB

    "Why spend life seeking that which does not satisfy? Why remain a slave, when freedom waits? Let your life shine; illumine the world with your truth!"

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  14. #14

    Default Re: Do we stink for the "outside"world?

    Time and time again my fragrance experiences always come to one vanishing point:

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry B. Adams
    Everyone carries his own inch rule of taste, and amuse himself by applying it, triumphantly, wherever he travels.
    When it comes to other people enjoying your frags it is most often a gulf of difference in taste between two different people.
    I am willing to bet most twins would share different tastes in Perfumes. That is how much a matter of personal opinion frags are.

    Seasons Greetings


  15. #15

    Default Re: Do we stink for the "outside"world?

    I was told to "wear the shoe." Fine, then. Let's put exposure and training (however auto-didactic, or not) aside for the moment. Let's say it IS all about native taste and/or talent. (Just hypothetically, OK?)

    Well, some people have great voices and use them. Do we condemn them for singing well, and/or having a native sense of pitch? Some people have exceptional skills with color, and can tell pomegranate from magenta at fifty paces. Do we denounce them as "snobs" because they have a native eye for color?

    Sure, one can't be realistic and blithely factor out exposure, disposable income, and other factors in matters of selecting scent. But one CAN accurately say that a) having a "good nose" is something that -- like it or not -- not all people share, and b) most people DO really like what they've been told to like, and seldom use what olfactory abilities they MAY have to venture outside a safe little circle of smells.

    If THAT makes me a snob, then so be it -- I'll gladly wear the damn shoe. I've had a special connection to scents all my life, and I daresay that many of you here on the board have felt the same way about scents most -- if not all -- of your own lives. Again, we can't and shouldn't factor other considerations out of how we view scent in general, no. But to say that native talent has nothing to do with it? Never.

    The simple truth is that a combination of aggressive marketing, untrained noses, peer pressure, and, yes, many downright untalented schnozzes all combine to make discriminating scenthounds the exception, not the rule. (Hate to get all X-Men on yo' asses, but there ya have it.)
    Last edited by tvlampboy; 11th November 2006 at 12:12 AM.

    Peggy: "Right now, we have to get to the mental institution. Something terrible has happened."
    Latrelle: "What?"
    Peggy: "Brother Boy has tried to kill himself. He jumped out of his bedroom window."
    Latrelle: "Isn't he only on the second floor?"
    Peggy: "Yes, but he hit his head on a lawn gnome."
    Fr. Sordid Lives: The Series
    *****
    "Live, live, live! Life is a banquet, and most poor suckers are starving to death."
    Auntie Mame
    [/B]

  16. #16

    Default Re: Do we stink for the "outside"world?

    Helg, wow, thanks for the insightfull reply. It's true. The fragrance trends have certain time frames and people want to fit in the marketing visuals provided for us.Even me , I have to confess. Maybe some niche brands set the trends first and designer houses folow that trend later.
    I even think that "niche"is the new trend for designer houses now. Look at Armani and Estee Lauder (Donna Karen, Tom Ford) now, trying to seek their place in the niche market.
    Tell your friend he's a fool not too listen to your advice.

    Jaime B, LOL! We all have sophisticated taste here at Basenotes. Well, maybe some more than others. It all starts with posting here , e-bay and a paypall acount. There's no escape.

    TV lamp, I agree. If calling a snob means I enjoy good qualitty and taste in fragrances, than I will allow people to cal me a snob, although I prefer the word "conaiseur". I will wear that shoe...or clog,since I'm Dutch.

    However, this thread was not meant to stir up the ole niche-designer debates. I do wear and enjoy , at this moment, more of the mainstream brands , sold in a wider area. Only, what I meant was, within that area in which people can choose the "classics" like Habit Rouge , Anteus etc. people still go for , and like ,the "popular" ones more. You know, Boss, Keneth Cole , Cool Water etc. And I think Helgs post explained it perfectly.
    Last edited by eric; 11th November 2006 at 12:18 AM.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Do we stink for the "outside"world?

    [QUOTE=nicolastutor]

    As far as the GF goes, she thinks I'm in the closet because of my frag addiction, but she likes that I buy stuff for her. She has come to appreciate the good stuff, and what most people would consider strange. But she's always making strange connections like: "Gendarme smells like bowling ally shoe disinfectant." or "B-men smells like old deodorant mixed with bug spray" Grrr! QUOTE]

    Funny! Similarly (kind of :-) the BF of 8 years! has never complimented me on ANY of the ones I've got in the wardrobe, let alone the one I had on today especially! And we share them all, except the RL Safari which was his much wanted birthday present, and Scent Instense which is MINE. He likes Tommy, Aramis Life etc but seeing that I buy the perfume, it will never feature here!!

    I've had many compliments from the workplace though, male and female alike, on many of the ones I've got or used to have. Maybe it's the people we encounter - could be they can relate to it if one smells good...or they don't appreciate good fragrance like we do?

  18. #18

    Default Re: Do we stink for the "outside"world?

    I get many compliments on my more abnormal scent choices. I think it's a matter of how you handle yourself while wearing it. I use the fact (fact!) that most people cannot tell the difference, as many have said, between the collective AdGs and Tommys of the fragrance world from the Creeds and MPGs.

    If they don't know any better, they assume that you are wearing something mainstream, and hence that it is something that most people like. So, they convince themselves to like it also. That's why I don't tell people who makes the scent, what the notes are, etc until AFTER they have smelt it and formed their opinions without any knowledge of my or the scent's background.

    After they have determined that they like it (95% of the time, they do), I give them the horrible truth: it is not something most people have heard of. It isn't supposed to get chicks. The brand name isn't a status symbol. But you like it anyway, so HA! By that time, it's too late for them to backtrack and say it's weird. Works every time.
    "It's not what you look like when you're doing what you're doing; it's what you're doing when you're doing what you look like you're doing."

  19. #19

    Default Re: Do we stink for the "outside"world?

    Perhaps this group nurtures a bit of refinement through interest and learning, along with a pinch of snobbery? I know when I first experienced Creed GIT I knew I'd likely never wear Chaps or CK again. But I also am baffled how A*Men is chosen top fragrance several years on for its "uniqueness", since for me it stinks of cotton candy, cocoa, and burnt hair. Certainly personal taste and body chemistry are factors. But some of the review threads I read here remind me of the I Love Lucy episode in Paris where Lucy & Ethel were so desperate for designer clothes that they proudly wore burlap feed sacks when they were told they were haute couture. Even more telling was that days later all the women on the Paris street were wearing them. So really, there are Axe lemmings, and there are L'Artisan/Muggler/Creed lemmings. In the end, isn't it all just vanity and artifice, anyway?

  20. #20

    Default Re: Do we stink for the "outside"world?

    I agree that there are "Ethels and Lucys in Paris" out there, yes, but that doesn't mean that all scenthounds fall into that category -- not by a long shot. Furthermore, being a lemming becomes more and more unlikely the more exposure and training you have.

    I have to agree with you about A*men, yes, but everyone's body chemistry is so different that this scent (like so many others) varies wildly. My b.f. can carry it off; it's very chocolatey and musky on him. On me, it's all road tar and bile. You smell burnt hair on you. And so forth. I'm willing to grant that some people like anything "exclusive," yes, but not so many as you might ever think here on Basenotes.

    For most here, this is just a hobby, in all levels of seriousness. For others still yet, it's an actual profession (e.g., actual perfumery, retail, wholesale etc.). The dilettante types you disdain may be here, yes, but I don't think they're the type who'll stick around for very long.

    Peggy: "Right now, we have to get to the mental institution. Something terrible has happened."
    Latrelle: "What?"
    Peggy: "Brother Boy has tried to kill himself. He jumped out of his bedroom window."
    Latrelle: "Isn't he only on the second floor?"
    Peggy: "Yes, but he hit his head on a lawn gnome."
    Fr. Sordid Lives: The Series
    *****
    "Live, live, live! Life is a banquet, and most poor suckers are starving to death."
    Auntie Mame
    [/B]

  21. #21

    Default Re: Do we stink for the "outside"world?

    A simple answer.......Yes!!!!!!
    Gary

  22. #22

    Post Re: Do we stink for the "outside"world?

    Good job tvlampboy! I agree with your message, which is obviously quite the opposite to the general consensus out there.

    It seems to me, that our postmodern culture is actually there to destroy the concepts like good and beauty. Good is something that provides good financial income, or something that is trendy right now. There are just opinions, and so on. This attitude literally makes me sick - as if extreme form of relativism would equal true wisdom.

    This way of perceiving world - I believe - has alot to do with the fall of logical positivism as a leading theory in science, not just in philosophy, behaviorism for example is a form of similar thinking in psychology. All the enthusiasm towards logical positivism was due to wishful thinking that we might actually find a way to solve all the metaphysical problems. To be more precise, notice that there are no actual problems, just that our natural language isn't accurate enough to describe the world well enough. Anyhow, after base of all this crumbled, it seems, we lost our hope. There is no way of finding any reliable truth. Thus, opinions are all we have. You don't have to be a wittgenstein to understand that this leads to vacuum of all values. I will never ever accept the highly popular opinion, that every fragrance is just as valuable, everything is art and so on. Not many of us put it that way, but that's what we actually mean when we say that beauty is in the eye of beholder.

    Problem here obviously is, that there are - apparenty - no actual world of values. I have to accept that we will never find any way to scientifically, so to speak, do a research concerning ethical or aesthetical questions. So, it is true, that relativism in this sense is not theoretically wrong. The problem is, than in practice this does not seem to work. On the other hand we believe that beauty indeed is in the eye of the beholder, yet we read music, movie, book and fragrance reviews. We generally believe that our taste can evolve. In the world of relativism, this all is impossible.

    To make my point clear (or even more fuzzy), I would like to make a bad analogy. Question of free will is obviously very problematic. But I tend to think, that there is two categories of free will, the metaphysical one and the practical one. How can our will be truly free when it seems that our mind is so strongly related to matter, which follows basic laws of nature? Then there is free will in our daily lives, the strong feeling that we really can choose our own actions. This can be disturbed by addictions, obsessions, phobias, neuroses and various other mental disorders. The latter is what really counts. In my view, the case is somewhat similar in aesthetics. We can't find a world of ideas, where the true beauty lies. Yet it is present in our lives.

    My english is not good enough to discuss a subject like this the way I want to, but hopefully you got atleast some of my points.
    Last edited by Johnny_Ludlow; 11th November 2006 at 03:56 PM.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Do we stink for the "outside"world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny_Ludlow
    Good job tvlampboy! I agree with your message, which is obviously quite the opposite to the general consensus out there.

    It seems to me, that our postmodern culture is actually there to destroy the concepts like good and beauty. Good is something that provides good financial income, or something that is trendy right now. There are just opinions, and so on. This attitude literally makes me sick - as if extreme form of relativism would equal true wisdom.

    This way of perceiving world - I believe - has alot to do with the fall of logical positivism as a leading theory in science, not just in philosophy, behaviorism for example is a form of similar thinking in psychology. All the enthusiasm towards logical positivism was due to wishful thinking that we might actually find a way to solve all the metaphysical problems. To be more precise, notice that there are no actual problems, just that our natural language isn't accurate enough to describe the world well enough. Anyhow, after base of all this crumbled, it seems, we lost our hope. There is no way of finding any reliable truth. Thus, opinions are all we have. You don't have to be a wittgenstein to understand that this leads to vacuum of all values. I will never ever accept the highly popular opinion, that every fragrance is just as valuable, everything is art and so on. Not many of us put it that way, but that's what we actually mean when we say that beauty is in the eye of beholder.

    Problem here obviously is, that there are - apparenty - no actual world of values. I have to accept that we will never find any way to scientifically, so to speak, do a research concerning ethical or aesthetical questions. So, it is true, that relativism in this sense is not theoretically wrong. The problem is, than in practice this does not seem to work. On the other hand we believe that beauty indeed is in the eye of the beholder, yet we read music, movie, book and fragrance reviews. We generally believe that our taste can evolve. In the world of relativism, this all is impossible.

    To make my point clear (or even more fuzzy), I would like to make a bad analogy. Question of free will is obviously very problematic. But I tend to think, that there is two categories of free will, the metaphysical one and the practical one. How can our will be truly free when it seems that our mind is so strongly related to matter, which follows basic laws of nature? Then there is free will in our daily lives, the strong feeling that we really can choose our own actions. This can be disturbed by addictions, obsessions, phobias, neuroses and various other mental disorders. The latter is what really counts. In my view, the case is somewhat similar in aesthetics. We can't find a world of ideas, where the true beauty lies. Yet it is present in our lives.

    My english is not good enough to discuss a subject like this the way I want to, but hopefully you got atleast some of my points.
    Not sure , but I think G.303 said the same in way less words.

    Thanks for your philosophic ,scientific reply though, lol!

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Do we stink for the "outside"world?

    I'm chemically sensitive. I get crazy trying to sleep in a room that's just been painted or the floor urethaned. That said, I can't remember anyone stinking in a long time. I may find the scent to be not very interesting or applied with a paint roller. I also live in New Jersey so the percentages tend to be awfully skewed.

    Has anyone read Joseph Heller's sceamingly funny book of King David, the David who slew Goliath? The book title is "God Knows"

    He doesn't bathe, David that is, because he has naked women squirting precious oils and liquids on him basically 24/7/365. It's well written (Catch22 author) a riot (it's Heller) and I remember it described lovingly the lands and cultural practices. "Ancient Evenings" by Norman Mailer - similar vein - very few laughs.

    I'll take Jewish authors who grew up in Brooklyn for 2000 Alex

    Gary

  25. #25

    Post Re: Do we stink for the "outside"world?

    Yes, way less words. That's very effective; why didn't I figure that out?

  26. #26

    Default Re: Do we stink for the "outside"world?

    Quote Originally Posted by fredricktoo
    That said, I can't remember anyone stinking in a long time.
    Lucky man. Yesterday I went to the Jazz Festival in my town. The David Murray Quartet gave a fantastic concert. Except the fact that a homeless was somehow let in the hall, and he found the only free place beside me.

  27. #27

    Default Re: Do we stink for the "outside"world?

    [It seems to me, that our postmodern culture is actually there to destroy the concepts like good and beauty. Good is something that provides good financial income, or something that is trendy right now. There are just opinions, and so on. This attitude literally makes me sick - as if extreme form of relativism would equal true wisdom.]

    Hi Jonny - a thoughtful, well-constructed contribution - particularly when the posting is as lean and clearly expressed as yours.

    I agree that a rejection of ultra-relativism is necessary, and also that the only rational response is the one you propose: engagement.

    Keep up the good work!

    I can't access my notes for the quote that - kitsch is the modern world's refusal to accept that there is such a thing as bad taste. I think it's Milan Kundera - but I know I've had a load of kitsch scents over the years.

    So [whole post]- yes we smell different/unusual - that is their problem/privelege - that don't make us snobs

  28. #28

    Default Re: Do we stink for the "outside"world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandy
    Except the fact that a homeless was somehow let in the hall, and he found the only free place beside me.
    Maybe the homeless would like L'Anarchiste (Caron), but would never be able to buy it for himself. I think money makes a decisive difference in the choice of a fragrance. Some people just cannot afford the luxury of having a such elaborated wardrobe like many basenoters.

  29. #29

    Default Re: Do we stink for the "outside"world?

    What a delightful thread. We don't just smell good around here, we're incredibly intelligent (snobsnob).

    About the postmodernist problem. My take is: just because there isn't one singular truth, doesn't mean there aren't plenty of lies. Yes truths are conventions, but that does not mean they are arbitrary. The key is that they are intersubjective, i.e. a community of discutants researches, negotiates, comes to tentative conclusions which remain subject to constant questioning and revision. There will always be major field of consensus that establish relatively firm truths which come to be generally accepted (many Lutens perfumes are masterful creations - even those who don't like the frags would likely agree) as well as disagreements (Creed?). While anyone has the democratic right to any opinion ("Aspen Discovery is much better than Creed's Epicea) the weight that opinion carries will depend on whether the argument is presented within argumentative parameters the community has agreed upon. (To take a genuine & quite serious example from my work: any historian would seriously consider the thesis that the holocaust never ocurred IF any one holocaust denier EVER presented ANY form of evidence convincing according to the standards of scholarly historiography. But holocaust deniers cannot do this, because the evidence that it DID happen is simply too overwhelming to be countervailed. David Irving was doing unacceptably bad history when he argued differently from shoddy, easily refutable pieces of "evidence"). While perfume is an imminently more trivial affair, the issue is epistemologically the same. Your value judgement is subject to the criteria of the community you utter it in. And while the Aspen argument might work on yer high school buds, it would be effectively dismantled by the expertise of the present community. Which doesn't mean that the basenotes community in 2080 won't conclude that we really had it all wrong back in 2006, 'cos looking backward, those ozonic aquatics were really brilliant and how couldn't we recognize that at the time
    My Wardrobe
    II est de forts parfums pour qui toute matière/Est poreuse. On dirait qu'ils pénètrent le verre.

  30. #30

    Default Re: Do we stink for the "outside"world?

    Quote Originally Posted by DesGrieux
    Maybe the homeless would like L'Anarchiste (Caron), but would never be able to buy it for himself. I think money makes a decisive difference in the choice of a fragrance. Some people just cannot afford the luxury of having a such elaborated wardrobe like many basenoters.
    I've seen some good prices on e-bay for L'Anarchiste actually,, LOL! but I know what you mean.
    About the big wardrobe thing, I'm convinced most on this community haven't got the money either, but either got most ones on e-bay, or saved untill they got the money to buy them. At least I do. It's cheaper then collecting expensive watches or cars ( I think..)
    Last edited by eric; 16th November 2006 at 12:26 PM.

  31. #31

    Default Re: Do we stink for the "outside"world?

    Quote Originally Posted by the_good_life
    What a delightful thread. We don't just smell good around here, we're incredibly intelligent (snobsnob).

    About the postmodernist problem. My take is: just because there isn't one singular truth, doesn't mean there aren't plenty of lies. Yes truths are conventions, but that does not mean they are arbitrary. The key is that they are intersubjective, i.e. a community of discutants researches, negotiates, comes to tentative conclusions which remain subject to constant questioning and revision. There will always be major field of consensus that establish relatively firm truths which come to be generally accepted (many Lutens perfumes are masterful creations - even those who don't like the frags would likely agree) as well as disagreements (Creed?). While anyone has the democratic right to any opinion ("Aspen Discovery is much better than Creed's Epicea) the weight that opinion carries will depend on whether the argument is presented within argumentative parameters the community has agreed upon. (To take a genuine & quite serious example from my work: any historian would seriously consider the thesis that the holocaust never ocurred IF any one holocaust denier EVER presented ANY form of evidence convincing according to the standards of scholarly historiography. But holocaust deniers cannot do this, because the evidence that it DID happen is simply too overwhelming to be countervailed. David Irving was doing unacceptably bad history when he argued differently from shoddy, easily refutable pieces of "evidence"). While perfume is an imminently more trivial affair, the issue is epistemologically the same. Your value judgement is subject to the criteria of the community you utter it in. And while the Aspen argument might work on yer high school buds, it would be effectively dismantled by the expertise of the present community. Which doesn't mean that the basenotes community in 2080 won't conclude that we really had it all wrong back in 2006, 'cos looking backward, those ozonic aquatics were really brilliant and how couldn't we recognize that at the time
    I'm amazed how the original subject of this thread could evolve in all this deep thinking and explaining about "community behaviour" of human beings in general with wonderfull history facts and all. But all this wonderfull use of english grammar is rising above the borders of my intelligence level , so hard I hear my brains cracking.

    Yet, the last part of Goodlifes post maybe explaines it , our taste changes over time and snobs ( or connaiseurs) will always excist. And... there will always be people who tell us they don't like the way we smell.
    Last edited by eric; 16th November 2006 at 12:24 PM.

  32. #32

    Default The way I see it.

    I didn't have a real interest in fragrances except for my four I had at the time until I went to a friends house. He had about fifteen different fragrances, and I was AMAZED. Each scent was so unique and new, I was baffled at how I couldn't have noticed this wonderful world of fragrance before. Three years later, I realize that he had very mainstream scents, but to me at the time, they were gold. His Nautica, Bod, Abercrombie and Hollister were foreign to me, so they were unique. Now that I now a thing (or two), its different.
    Yes, I am a snob. I have a bottle of Hugo Boss (Which I wear rarely, despite how many compliments I get), and Domain by Mary Kay. I was furious when I found out Domain is almost an exact copy, and don't like it at all, but my friends think its golden. It really is a pleasant scent, but once you've heard "Last Resort" by Papa Roach, and all of its variants, the new variants get really boring. So, yes I am a snob, and I won't change, because I've now seen the light.

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