Code of Conduct
Results 1 to 6 of 6
  1. #1

    Thumbs up Rose Barbare, Cedre list evernia prunastri (Oakmoss) and Coumarin

    I was just reading the ingredients labels of Cedre by Serge Lutens and Rose Barbare by Guerlain listed on their boxes. Both list evernia prunastri or oakmoss extract and Rose Barbare also lists coumarin, (coumarin and oakmoss both Mitsouko 's condemned ingredients according to Luca Turin) ingredients I thought had been definitely banned by the EU.

    also found an interesting article in french Elle of last year, Jean Kerleo (former Jean Patou in-house nose and actual Osmotheque director) claims that these are only recommandations made by the EU, there 's NO BAN but perfumers chose to go along with these regulations avoiding confrontations with anti-perfume lobbies and that also gave them an opportunity to reformulate perfumes with cheaper synthetic substitutes. ** link

    it looks like exclusive perfumers like Serge Lutens, Guerlain niche perfumes and hopefully others still use rare and 'unrecommended" natural oakmoss and coumarin regardless, what a relief!



    ** 'Elle' article:

    http://www.amabilia.com/cgi-bin/nonc...02.html#000000

  2. #2

    Default Re: Rose Barbare, Cedre list evernia prunastri (Oakmoss) and Coumarin

    I have noticed several new fragrances coming out with these ingredients, ambrette seed, and some other 'bad' notes. So I decided to enjoy.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Rose Barbare, Cedre list evernia prunastri (Oakmoss) and Coumarin

    Jasmin, the oakmoss is listed on very many frags, be it Jovan's Musk or some Lutens' - like you've quoted here

    Jean Kerleo (former Jean Patou in-house nose and actual Osmotheque director) claims that these are only recommandations made by the EU, there 's NO BAN but perfumers chose to go along with these regulations avoiding confrontations with anti-perfume lobbies and that also gave them an opportunity to reformulate perfumes with cheaper synthetic substitutes.
    I think this is actually the real point and it's been overhyped in the direction that people think the ingredients are forbidden which is not the fact: oakmoss isn't forbidden or anything, it just has to be listed on the product so people that are allergic to it can chose whether they use it or not. It's more the policy of perfume houses that they don't want to list it for the fear of losing some customers, so they'd rather reformulate.
    But it is true that companies that are IFRA members must fulfill the regulations - concerning oakmoss it means not using more than the recommended level and listing.

    Kasae, could it be you mix up ambrette seed ( a harmless hibiscus seed essence) with the definitely forbidden "Musk Ambrette", a synthetical musk compound which is a health hazard?

  4. #4

    Default Re: Rose Barbare, Cedre list evernia prunastri (Oakmoss) and Coumarin

    Oakmoss is not banned, but the quantity used is very strictly limited.

    Let us get this straight - in Europe, by law, certain fragrance allergens must be listed on the label if they are present in the fragrance. These allergens are present in both natural and synthetic fragrance materials. They must be listed by law; it is nothing to do with membership of IFRA, it is not voluntary, it is simply the law, and has been in effect for a few years now. It applies to all cosmetic and toiletry items sold or distributed within the EU, whether or not they are manufactured there. The fragrance allergens may or may not be also limited or restricted by IFRA; in fact most of them are not restricted. The two things, the labelling, and IFRA recommendations are not the same thing, and not the same law. The labelling law exists purely to allow people who are allergic to certain ingredients to be able to identify products that contain them, and if they wish keep away from them.

    As a comparable example, in my country, the UK, all food items that contain nuts, or may be contaminated by nuts, are labelled "contains nuts" or "manufactured in an environment where nut products are also handled" or similar. There is no implication that nuts are poisonous or bad, nor does it imply that nuts should only be used in restricted quantities - it simply allows someone to whom even a micro-small piece of a nut may mean death by allergy to avoid those products.

    Many IFRA recommendations on allowed/banned and restricted fragrance compounds have also been incorporated into EU law. They have been for ages. Whether or not a fragrance house in Europe is a member of IFRA makes no difference; if it is incorporated into law then they must comply. It is also important to understand that fragrance houses join IFRA because they have a very real interest in presenting their own data about the safety or otherwise of fragrance compounds. It is not the case that IFRA sits in isolation making nasty growling noises at the poor little perfume houses. It is they who *ARE* IFRA.

    IFRA recommendations that have not yet been made law also tend to be adhered to by fragrance houses. Not because they are members, but because they - also strictly by law in the EU, but I would like to think by inclination as well - have a duty to demonstrate that any product they put on the market will not harm their customers. This means taking into consideration any and all information relating to the safety of the ingredients that they are using. Perhaps someone who is not a member of IFRA elsewhere in the world can ignore this, or can afford to have 'opinions' about it, but if they are in the EU they cannot. Legally they cannot. If, for example, they disagree that oakmoss is a sensitizer, or believe that it they can use a greater amount than IFRA recommends, then they must provide scientific data to back this up. This data would also have to be sufficient to convince a jury if a consumer sued the fragrance house.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Rose Barbare, Cedre list evernia prunastri (Oakmoss) and Coumarin

    What you probably don't know is that Evernia Prunastri has been limited to 0.1% in any formula.
    Which means they still list it as included in the formula, yet the amount is not equal to the original formula which skews the whole composition as the change in smell directs the noses into changing the ratio of other ingredients as well.

    I agree with Jazztweety that you are probably thinking of quite harmful Musk Ambrette.

    Amabilia is a nice forum, huh? ;-)

  6. #6

    Default Re: Rose Barbare, Cedre list evernia prunastri (Oakmoss) and Coumarin

    I 'm just relieved we 're talking about recommendations more than actual bans, so many alarming drama threads on POL led to confusion.

    my older Lutens boxes have no labels, they 're not that old I think the oldest is three or four years old. My Musc Ravageur by Malle bought two years ago at Barneys has no label, same for Debut by Delrae from last year, I also just purchased Cristalle in eau de toilette online lately, no label either.
    I guess my unlabeled boxes have already become collectors! lol

    the allergens labeling in the industry must be obviously something recent only concerning perfumers wishing to keep a certain authenticity.
    Guerlain only list allergens when it come to their exclusive perfumes but reformulate the whole regular fragrance line to avoid it?

    oakmoss a sensitizer? anyone knows how harmful this is?
    --------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by helg
    Amabilia is a nice forum, huh? ;-)

    I don 't think there 's anything worse than amab (a french canadian board) or aufeminin, the thing is in France perfume is so much part of everyday life, with only 65 millions people, France is still and by far the first world market for perfumes.

    I always say that but regardless of how prestigious houses like Guerlain are, perfume is not wine.
    Wine is Christ 's blood, it does have a more noble and serious image than perfume, it 's more rooted in french history too.
    there are many great perfume critics in France like Annick le Guerrer (the french Luca Turin), Guy Gilly an expert who extensively wrote about the perfume industry in Grasse etc. but sadly none of them use internet communication, so there 's no french Luca Turin effect online, I regret this in terms of how we all miss out on diversity as their point of view holds a different vision, another truth of course, a counterpoint to anglo-american culture specially when it comes to the subjectivity of olfactory senses, the way each culture understands, appreciates and interprets things.
    Last edited by Jasmin de Grasse; 10th March 2007 at 07:21 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

Similar Threads

  1. ...
    By pluran in forum Male Fragrance Discussion
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: 13th October 2006, 08:04 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •