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  1. #1

    Default Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    Is the name Heritage a direct reference to this fragrance's shared notes of Jicky and MdM? What a magnificent Guerlain!

  2. #2

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    I have never had the slightest interest in "Heritage", then I read your post. I must smell it now. How fabulous it must be if you can relate it to "Jicky" and "Mochoir de Monsieur"!

  3. #3

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    Quote Originally Posted by fraddicted View Post
    I have never had the slightest interest in "Heritage", then I read your post. I must smell it now. How fabulous it must be if you can relate it to "Jicky" and "Mochoir de Monsieur"!
    Also, unlike Jicky and MdM, the EdT is available, heavily discounted, from many on-line stores.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    I think the name has to do with their tag line: "Héritage, composed by a man of today, inspired by the men of the past and dedicated to the men of the future - marking a whole new stage in man's desire to write his own history" and alludes to the heritage embodied in the great Frenchmen of the past (who certainly would have worn Jicky and Mouchoir!).

  5. #5

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    I think it just means that it harkens back to classic men's fragrances.

    I can't see it relating to Mouchior or Jicky since it doesn't have that nauseating ingredient civet.

  6. #6

    Smile Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeFromManhattan View Post
    I think it just means that it harkens back to classic men's fragrances.

    I can't see it relating to Mouchior or Jicky since it doesn't have that nauseating ingredient civet.
    OK, I agree, no civet in Heritage. But these notes are shared by Jicky, MdM and Heritage in a very similiar, very Guerlain way: Bergamot oil, Lemon, Mandarin, Jasmin, Orris, Rose, Amber, Tonka - minus the baby vomit!

  7. #7

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    A Guerlinade by any other name smells just as sweet...

  8. #8

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    For me the uniting element in Mouchoir and Jicky is the anise. I know the two share other elements, and their bases are the same similar dense blend, with Mouchoir being a little bit more open.

    I've been wearing Jicky for two days now, thinking about this thread, and with a shot of Heritage edp on my wrist tonight it does seem close in construction to Mouchoir, but less to Jicky. More wood to Heritage, but it's also got the same kind of elongated smell--part of the smell at the top of your breath and another part of the smell at the bottom--that Mouchoir masters. Heritage seems so much more sweetness, and to turn on that sweetness, where Mouchoir and Jicky seem to turn on that off-putting almost sour barbed fish hook of a smell, anise.

    I know Ruggles isn't suggesting that they're the same, or belong together in a scent category, so I naturally agree with him, but I'm not quite sure if I can see a heritage of Jicky and Mouchoir in Heritage either. Heritage seems warm and wholesome in a way that Jicky and Mouchoir don't. They seem to offer distance, and introspection.

    Love 'em all three I say.
    --Chris
    That girl, that bottle, that mattress and me.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?


    Lavender connects all three, civet and the stronger animalic base as a result of it and other ambery components separate Jicky and Mouchoir de Monsieur definitively from Héritage’s minimal ambery elements, which have hardly any salience aromatically speaking. While Héritage is often classified as a Oriental Ambery fragrance, I think, and many would agree, that Oriental, Woody, Spicy is a better, more multi-dimensional classification.


    I've seen Mouchoir de Monsieur categorized as an Aromatic Fougère, but I don't really see the interplay and direct and salient connection between lavender and oakmoss in it. In fact, what Héritage and Mouchoir de Monsieur share is the short duration of the lavender note that doesn't really carry and integrate wholly with the basenote accord and there is certainly no prominence of oakmoss that would really, wholly justify the categorical categorization of Mouchoir de Monsieur as an Aromatic Fougère. As many have noted, Jicky tends to be heavier on the masculine lavender than its brother the Monsieur. The same tendency towards categorical categorization leads many to question, indeed, whether Héritage itself is an Aromatic Fougère or an Oriental when they consider its lavender note. It's oriental in its sweetness (tonka) and spiciness (coriander, pepper, and patchouli), and woody because of the prominence of cedar and patchouli. There's oakmoss is there, but the main interplay is not between lavender and oakmoss; it's between the spicy heart notes and the rich warm vanillic woody base once the quick clarion cry of the lavender is over. The spicy piquancy of the patchouli and the cedar also reiterate the spice notes at the same time that they abate them and smooth them out reinforcing the woody spiceness in an obverse way. This is very, very different to how Jicky and Mouchoir de Monsieur work their magic.

    In the final analysis one could split hairs all night long, but I think Chris got it exactly right--as usual--when he spoke about the difference in terms of feel.

    If I may be allowed a flight of fancy in taking that difference in feel one step further: I would say that the enveloping warmth of Héritage is the end point and assuredness of substantive bourgeois success and prominence (hence the name Héritage); whereas, the cold distancing feel of Jicky and Mouchoir de Monsieur is the product of the uncertainty of bourgeois success in the tenuous aristocratic fin de siècle world of the late 1800s and early 1900s. Maybe this is the real connection between the three?

    scentemental

    Last edited by scentemental; 16th March 2007 at 04:23 AM.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    Quote Originally Posted by scentemental View Post
    If I may be allowed a flight of fancy in taking that difference in feel one step further: I would say that the enveloping warmth of Héritage is the end point and assuredness of substantive bourgeois success and prominence (hence the name Héritage); whereas, the cold distancing feel of Jicky and Mouchoir de Monsieur is the product of the uncertainty of bourgeois success in the tenuous aristocratic fin de siècle world of the late 1800s and early 1900s. Maybe this is the real connection between the three?
    This is a very interesting point, a "cultural" interpretation of a fragrance. I'm very fond of reviews trying not only to analize the way a scent is made but to link this way of composition to phenomena going beyond that (e.g. to cultural or social backgrounds, as done here).

    Once I read Jicky was a perfume used by "dandies" of the Fin de siècle. I would rather claim them to be "aristocratics"(type of Des Esseintes in "A rebours" or Andrea Sperelli in "Il piacere"). I doubt that people with "new money", belonging to the bourgeois class, would have worn such an "eccentric" perfume.

    But, of course, the difference between Jicky and Mouchoir on the one hand side, and Héritage on the other hand remains. Héritage without a doubt is less experimental - and "self assured" is the right word to describe it. Maybe it (Héritage) symbolizes the switch that has happened in society: "Audacious" (does this word exist) people, "dandies" are no more considerable part of society (now that's an exaggeration, I know). The house of Guerlain "just" made a fragrance for its contemporary clients.

    I'd therefore suggest that Héritage - in its idea - isn't a descendant of Jicky and Mouchoir. I'm quite sure that at the moment other houses produce more provocative, "isolating" (from the rest of society), "dandy-style" fragrances. (Certainly some of Serge Lutens and Frédéric Malle. Creed, as much as I love them, seems to be too "established".)

    However, I don't have a solution for all that, but I'm very thankful for the previous "postwriters" that have guided my attention to this aspect.

    Steffen
    Last edited by DesGrieux; 16th March 2007 at 10:43 AM. Reason: Spelling - Forgive me, I'm German...

  11. #11

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    I'm still quite new here and haven't even really gotten my feet wet. The above three posts may be a sample of some of the finest writing on the internet. I'll leave it at that. I've felt better but discussion of this type is soothing and educational. Do any of you teach?

    must maintain thread consistency so I'm wearing Heritage and will try to find the different notes discussed,

  12. #12

    Wink Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    I think that it's impossible to separate the olfactory tradition of a house like Guerlain from its social tradition of catering to the ever evolving nouveau-riche. I find most of Guerlain's creations, up until the LVMH takeover at least, to be steeped in that wonderfully French intellectual/sensual/social conundrum. Jicky and MdM were both products of the new industrial era, its visual symbol being the Eiffel Tower - at once a machine and at the same time art, that created new affluence and new demand for luxury goods.
    Fast forward to the recent past: French intellectual thought of the 80's and 90's was steeped in semiotics, post-modernism and deconstruction.
    I feel, the aptly named masterpiece Heritage, which was created during the apex of this movement, is a post-modernist riff on the house of Guerlain. The name, Heritage, can be seen as an acknowledgment of its origin, but at the same time a striving to be something new, hence the idea of evolution from Jicky to MdM to Heritage.
    To me, Basenotes is certainly a product of the French intellectual movement of post-modernism and deconstruction of tradition. As members of this forum we are involved in the deconstruction of the products of modern society, but at the same time we are also consumers of these products. It's like the hall of mirrors at Versailles.
    Thank you Chris for explaining the "almost sour barbed fish hook" scent as anise. I, for one, among many others, have always thought it was the civet and thank you to all the Basenote members for an intellectual workout!
    Last edited by Kevin Guyer; 16th March 2007 at 01:48 PM.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruggles View Post
    I think that it's impossible to separate the olfactory tradition of a house like Guerlain from its social tradition of catering to the ever evolving nouveau-riche. I find most of Guerlain's creations, up until the LVMH takeover at least, to be steeped in that wonderfully French intellectual/sensual/social conundrum. Jicky and MdM were both products of the new industrial era, its visual symbol being the Eiffel Tower - at once a machine and at the same time art, that created new affluence and new demand for luxury goods.
    Fast forward to the recent past: French intellectual thought of the 80's and 90's was steeped in semiotics, post-modernism and deconstruction.
    I feel, the aptly named masterpiece Heritage, which was created during the apex of this movement, is a post-modernist riff on the house of Guerlain. The name, Heritage, can be seen as an acknowledgment of its origin, but at the same time a striving to be something new, hence the idea of evolution from Jicky to MdM to Heritage.
    I’m aware that we are not mereley talking about “a fragrance” anymore but I hope I’m allowed to oppose.

    I think that from the beginning the house of Guerlain has proved economical cleverness to produce fragrances not only aimed at a rising bourgeois public but also to start an “olfactory partnership” with the crown: Think of Eau de Cologne impériale and many others, for example. As a sidenote: It always reminds me a bit of German conductor Herbert von Karajan, who was able to record for the three major companies of his time (EMI, Decca, Deutsche Grammophon), whereas other artists (think of Maria Callas) were strictly limited to one company.

    I agree that the uniqueness of French intellectual production, starting from the sixties, is remarkable and has influenced cultural theories as a whole. But: I don’t believe that disciplines (or let’s say: methods) like deconstruction, intertextuality or analysis of discourses (the Foucault-thing) would be equalled by a fragrance like Héritage. Just to add a bit of irony: Would Roland Barthes or Jaques Derrida have worn Héritage? I personally consider Jicky to be way more modern, more “avantgarde” like than Héritage. I even believe Habit Rouge to be more daring, adventurous. My impression of “self-assuredness” regarding Héritage, which scentemental has described to the point, doesn’t leave me…

    Steffen

  14. #14

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    Quote Originally Posted by DesGrieux View Post
    I’m aware that we are not mereley talking about “a fragrance” anymore but I hope I’m allowed to oppose.

    Just to add a bit of irony: Would Roland Barthes or Jaques Derrida have worn Héritage? I personally consider Jicky to be way more modern, more “avantgarde” like than Héritage. I even believe Habit Rouge to be more daring, adventurous. My impression of “self-assuredness” regarding Héritage, which scentemental has described to the point, doesn’t leave me…

    Steffen
    A wonderful question about Barthes and Derrida.
    Somehow, I think, residing deep inside all revolutionary thinkers, is a classicist. As the saying goes, "each man kills the thing he loves". So, yes, it is more likely that Barthes and Derrida would sport the originally revolutionary, but now, dare I say, classic, Jicky or MdM over the somewhat hackneyed Heritage.
    Upon its release, in the early 90's, Heritage must have appeared as a reactionary attempt, by an aging luxury house, to capture refinement, status and good taste. Today, after world history and politics have been de-constructed, Heritage can stand on its own merits as a superb fragrance.
    Last edited by Kevin Guyer; 16th March 2007 at 05:32 PM.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    I'd love to hear the definitions as you understand them of the word bourgeois, those who used it.
    As a member of the bourgeois I appreciate the efforts of Guerlain and wear Heritage with pride.
    It will be my SOTD tomorrow.

    bourgeois
    Last edited by fredricktoo; 16th March 2007 at 07:22 PM.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    Quote Originally Posted by fredricktoo View Post
    I'd love to here the definitions as you understand them of the word bourgeois, those who used it.
    As a member of the bourgeois I appreciate the efforts of Guerlain and wear Heritage with pride.
    It will be my SOTD tomorrow.

    bourgeois
    I'm not sure that I used the word bourgeois in my postings, but I hold the meaning to be the "comfortable, middle class".

  17. #17

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    Quote Originally Posted by scentemental View Post
    [If I may be allowed a flight of fancy in taking that difference in feel one step further: I would say that the enveloping warmth of Héritage is the end point and assuredness of substantive bourgeois success and prominence (hence the name Héritage); whereas, the cold distancing feel of Jicky and Mouchoir de Monsieur is the product of the uncertainty of bourgeois success in the tenuous aristocratic fin de siècle world of the late 1800s and early 1900s. Maybe this is the real connection between the three?

    scentemental

    I too love this great observation, DesGrieux and gang, and I'll take a stab at what it makes me think and also at answering Fredricktoo's query on what's bourgeois.

    I love Scentemental's observation, but it occurs to me that the flaw is that really, all applied fragrance products, Guerlain or otherwise, and of any period, can be called bourgeois. Isn't applied fragrance one of the adopted status claims inherent in what's bourgeois? Doesn't fragrance work as a signal to say "see, I'm special, and not of the brutes, I'm classy."

    The bourgeoisie has sure been associated with the middle classes and before that the rise of merchants and guild/crafts/artisan economies, but it doesn't just define a class, bourgeois defines some aspirations of those who are part of those social classes. And most simply put, and thus open to huge and multiple qualifications, what is bourgeois is something or someone that has enough status to try to demonstrate how socially high one has gotten, and mostly in the form of imitation. Table manners--look how classy I've taught myself to eat with my utensils--I'm just like aristocrats in the movies! Violence in movies--oh! I'm so offended by these vulgar images, I'm made so virtuous by my disdain for violent things (this cloak of virtue is one of my pet-peeves). And a variety of similar things, often to manufacture virtue or cleanliness being close to godliness or something. Bourgeois is settled and deciding what is the decent thing and doing it. And then moralizing about it. Something pretty much all of us do.

    There are specialists in intellectual history on this board and I encourage them to correct me.

    Scentemental's post is beautifully fun in how it posits, as a fun line of thought and a great chuckle of insight late in the night for me, that in the stability or standoffishness of scents of different eras, we can come to a conclusion on the state of the bourgeoisie in those eras. Heritage, coming at the end of the century that had the greatest expansion of the bourgeoisie ever known, shows wholehearted contentment. Smell it and smell the leather chair, the wood fire, the brandy snifter (brandy snifter--classy special glass unique to certain beverage, illustration of classiness and dealing with the good things in life just the proper way--very bourgeois. Brandy is a liquid. Put it in any old glass. Just as much fun), the wool sweater and the warm pile lined slippers. Heritage is the arrived and solid bourgeoisie. Trust grandpa, the system surely works if you play by all the decent rules.

    But Scentemental suggests that Jicky and Mouchoir represent the disquiet of the bourgeoisie at the beginning of the century that would expand the middle classes so. The end of the monarchies, the Boer War, the breaking down of the Nineteenth century's belief in ever rising moral standards. Conrad's Heart of Darkness, in which Kurtz's last words were "the horror, the horror," and later, when Marlow goes to see Kurtz's sister or cousin or whatever she was, she's dainty and refined and loaded with table manners, and she weeps at Kurtz's death and asks Marlow what his last words were. "Your name," Marlow replies, which comforts her greatly. The name for her and her world were "the horror," I'd argue was Marlow's point, and the horror of the brushing away or hiding the heart of darkness in living and in all of us.

    Well, anyway, Scentemental posits the bourgeoisie before the Great War as being quite unsettled. Yup. What happened, but total war came. And social order revolutions like the Russian Revolution, which took itself as a way to get beyond and put behind bourgeois stability (this is complicated and I'm being too quick). So the bourgeoisie wasn't in a Heritage-smell frame of mind. Hahaha! Smelling good then was off kilter, and weird. Hence Jicky/Mouchoir.

    That's all fun and games though. Fun with scent games and fun thinking about scent as art that reflects its time and the aspirations of the artists who create it. Oh peace and justice on earth will indeed come if we can just get the right scent out there.

    The problem is that applied scent itself strikes me as inherently bourgeois. One could argue that Emperor Napoleon's taste for scent was different because he was a great and powerful leader of armies and a nation, not of the middle class, but he was also a soldier from the provinces in his beginning. Thus, despite his high social status, one could argue his taste for smells and making his Empress smell great was bourgeois.

    I tried thinking if there are any scents out there that are avant garde enough not to be bourgeois, and I don't think there are any. The CdG Odeurs have pretensions to that title, but they are inherently an aspiration to reflect the world as we've really chosen it to smell. Very insightful, but they're within the camp that believe smell is a way to represent what is. They are less bourgeois than all the "pastoral pretty landscape off in la-la land the way decent folk of yore smelled" scents. But as a piece of representation, and aspiration to so much as smell nice, fragrance products are bourgeois.

    That's not a bad thing. People often use the term bourgeois to mean conformity and unthinking social adaptation conformity at that, but what bourgeois is is something that makes the world fascinating, and people fascinating. In the West, all we life in is pretty bourgeois, so all commentary on it, like mine, is bourgeois of its own. So it's hard to learn directly from it. It's something that just keeps turning in the mind, like how we turn scents over and over for their meaning and our meaning and find ourselves mentally enriched by doing so.

    All mistakes in this post are my own.
    --Chris
    That girl, that bottle, that mattress and me.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    thanks for that wonderful and extensive post, Chris. The definition of the term 'bourgeois' can indeed be stretched in different ways, and I think that your interpretation is widespread nowadays, particularly in the US.

    Quote Originally Posted by DustB View Post
    I love Scentemental's observation, but it occurs to me that the flaw is that really, all applied fragrance products, Guerlain or otherwise, and of any period, can be called bourgeois. Isn't applied fragrance one of the adopted status claims inherent in what's bourgeois? Doesn't fragrance work as a signal to say "see, I'm special, and not of the brutes, I'm classy."
    It's my understanding, however, that in the French fin de siècle 'bourgeoisie' and 'aristocracy' were sharply distinct categories. At the time they were not defined by qualities such as 'style' or 'good taste', nor by class distinction per se. Aristocrats held hereditary titles (Héritage!), while members of the bourgeois elite were 'self-made'. That alone made them two completely different social groups.

    Of course there's a long history of tensions between aristocrats and bourgeois, but by the late 19th century, aristocrats had become more or less socially marginalized, at least in France. (I assume France is relevant here, since we're talking about Guerlain and Jicky). Dandies represented an oppositional group within the "aristocracy camp", and they were fiercely holding on to very specific values (think of the fictional character Des Esseintes mentioned earlier in this thread). Those values were categorically rejected by the contemporary bourgeois elite. There's an excellent study on dandyism in literature called The Aristocrat as Art that illustrates this last form of 'resistence' against what had become mainstream (bourgeois) culture.

    As they gradually lost their political and economical power, many members of the European aristocracy started to blend in with the new elites. That means they also adopted new sets of values, while they distanced themselves from many of their own old traditions. I believe that the use of perfume represented the antithesis of new bourgeois values (at least until the turn of the century), seeing that members of the bourgeoisie had a profound dislike for "wasteful frivolities" in general. Men were supposed to invest in solid assets, serious things, not to scatter their money to the wind with a bottle of perfume. Besides, the use of perfume was one of the distict traits of past monarchs, which they deeply despised. Of course, the term 'bourgeois' acquired new meaning later in the 20th century, as aptly described by Chris.

    I'd love to find out who the actual consumers of Jicky and MdM were in the early days. I think they were dandies and artists indeed, but it would be interesting to see actual documentation on this matter.

    sorry if my post looks like a mess
    Marcello
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  19. #19

    Smile Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    It seems more likely that the original consumer of Jicky was closer to Louise de Vilmorin’s Madame de.. than Oscar Wilde. At least that's my guess.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?



    Who would have thought that an off-hand whimsical comment would solicit so much interesting posting. I am very glad for it, though.

    Having spent a good part of half a decade researching relations between the aristocracy and the middle class--among other things--in graduate school, fellow Basenoters will allow me I hope to make a couple of rusty observations based on those years of research and thinking. Please forgive the very general nature of this post. It was written quickly and off the top of my head and without reference to anything but what was very close to hand on the net. It’s mostly the workings of my fervid imagination, and I apologize in advance for that.

    The larger movements from the aristocratic world of the Ancien Régime to the modern world of representative democracies took place within the context of the fall of the economic and political preeminence of the aristocracy and secondly within the slower and certainly not total loss of its social and cultural preeminence. In fact, the social and cultural preeminence of the aristocracy in England during the Victorian period ensured that it had a large share of political power in parliament out of proportion to its already waning economic influence. As Arno Mayer notes in his lucid and elegant book The Persistence of the Old Regime: Europe to the Great War, it wasn’t until the debacle of the First World War in the twentieth century that most of Europe’s monarchies lost the political preeminence that keep that last vestiges of the hierarchical Ancien Régime in place and it was only then that modern democratic societies were able to rethink the political hierarchy that had the aristocracy, naturally, at the top.

    It’s no less complicated and anfractuous a matter in the cultural sphere. The history of the lineages of the modern democratic state, at least on the cultural level, is the complicated history of the coextensive aristocratization of the bourgeoisie, to a certain extent, and the eventual embourgeoisement of the aristocracy, to a certain extent. (I put in the caveat “to a certain extent”, because obviously I am painting in large strokes here, and clearly I am leaving out a lot of detail.) Ever since the late 1700s, the bourgeoisie sought to augment its increasing political and economic prominence on the social level with a distinct and austere moral code that contradistinguished it from the profligate aristocracy, the horizon of culture and the cultural symbols within which it sought to give credence to its new won status at the cultural level were in large part at least initially and for a very long time aristocratic. Even as the bourgeoisie developed its own culture and the preeminence of aristocratic culture receded, potent symbols of that culture have nevertheless always been appropriated and continue to this day to be appropriated in order to position oneself with in an aristocratic tradition and also in opposition to that tradition.

    Aristocratic symbols still remain potent and are easily reconstituted as I hope to show. The house of Guerlain in terms of its own symbolic practices is an interesting case itself. Let me illustrate these last two claims with a specific example with regard to the house of Guerlain. What follows is the opening paragraph from one of the most thorough and informative of all blogs on fragrance Bois de Jasmin. It’s a description (written December 23, 2005) of a tour of the recently renovated Guerlain flagship boutique at 68, Avenue des Champs-Elysées, Paris. It’s title is “La Maison Guerlain: Perfumery and Museum”:
    Entering the gilded interior of the Guerlain flagship boutique at 68, Avenue des Champs-Elysées one already feels the vivid contrast between the cold, grey Paris in winter and the sparkling Second Empire décor of the ground level. Yet, it is only by ascending the stairs that the contrast is brought to a climax. Spiral staircase, its dark wood sprinkled with golden squares, opens into a cavernous hall with rounded walls covered with spectacular gold mosaic. Unlike the more traditionally decorated ground level, it is at once retro and baroque, modern and futuristic—a luxurious setting befitting the fragrances and a self-help venue for a no-nonsense shopper, a rather curious juxtaposition. Created by a famous interior designer Andrée Putnam who is responsible for some of the most prominent fashion boutiques, La Maison Guerlain can rightly be listed among the haute perfumeries of Paris. If there ever existed the Guerlain perfume museum, 68, Champs-Elysées is the one.
    Nice isn’t it that on entering the Guerlain boutique the first impression is of the architectural and cultural symbols of the Second Empire. As one ascends the various floors, the building reads like a twentieth century palimpsest of styles and “retro and baroque, modern and futuristic”. A house built on an aristocratic foundation, Guerlain positioned within the aristocratic tradition that goes back to the Second Empire; the other floors one-by-one defining it as a departure from that tradition. The powers that be at LVMH know instinctively that to have refitted the Guerlain flagship store only in the mode of the “modern and futuristic” would be to jettison its most potent symbols and what in terms of tradition--and a long one at that--contradistinguishes the house of Guerlain from all the other upstarts.

    A few facts about the Second Empire for the purpose of conciseness from the Wikipedia:
    Although the machinery of government was almost the same under the Second Empire as it had been under the First, its founding principles were different. The function of the Empire, as Emperor Napoleon III often repeated, was to guide the people internally towards justice and externally towards perpetual peace. Holding his power by universal suffrage, and having frequently, from his prison or in exile, reproached previous oligarchical governments with neglecting social questions, he set out to solve them by organising a system of government based on the principles of the "Napoleonic Idea", i.e. of the emperor, the elect of the people as the representative of the democracy, and as such supreme; and of himself, the representative of the great Napoleon I of France, "who had sprung armed from the French Revolution like Minerva from the head of Jove," as the guardian of the social gains of the revolutionary period.
    What the Second Empire represents, at least in its ideal aspects is democracy by monarchy? Again, what we see here is the essentially inseparable interconnections between bourgeois ideals and the aristocratic ideals which frequently underpin them. The Guerlain flagship first floor is not in the style of the monarch Louis XVI, whose form of absolutist monarchy allowed no real representative prominence for the bourgeoisie and its ideals; it’s in the style of the Second Empire, already an accommodation of bourgeois ideals within the foundation of aristocracy, kingship.

    About the bee and its connection to the Second Empire. You know, the famous Guerlain bees on the bottles in which Guerlain offers many of its re-released classics, and if you’re one of the lucky few who can afford the money for a 500ml bottle, you’ll also get a large bee bottle for your half liter. The bee as a symbol derives from Napoleon I’s coat of arms and was a potent emblem of the First and Second Empires. Here is its symbolic meaning taken verbatim from napoleon.org:
    Symbol of immortality and resurrection, the bee was chosen so as to link the new dynasty to the very origins of France. Golden bees (in fact, cicadas) were discovered in 1653 in Tournai in the tomb of Childeric I, founder in 457 of the Merovingian dynasty and father of Clovis. They were considered as the oldest emblem of the sovereigns of France.
    The bee gives validation to Napoleon I's and to Guerlain’s connection with aristocratic tradition at the deepest level, all the way back to its very origins, but, as Napoleon understood, and as the house of Guerlain understands, the bee is also at the same time a potent symbol of the resurrection of something new within the old. This is the dynamic I’ve been trying to get at. Innovation within tradition; tradition within innovation. That’s the bourgeois heritage of Héritage, and that’s one connection, at least, it has to Jicky and Mouchoir de Monsieur.

    scentemental

    Last edited by scentemental; 17th March 2007 at 02:44 PM.

  21. #21

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    Yeah...what he said!

    God, I wish I were smarter...

  22. #22

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    scentemental
    Thank you. Your last post was to say the very least, enlightening. Do I call you Dr. scentemental yet? Bravo, on some very fine writing. Bravo to all who contributed on this excellent thread.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    College credit will be given for participation in this thread.
    But seriously, a little query has certainly elicited some truly gargantuan responses. Thanks to all.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    I wish I had you guys in my courses instead of so many braindead students.

    Actually, there is a good deal to be written about the cultural history of perfume. The few things I've come across in academic journals were rather thin.
    Farina claims to have one the most complete historical business archives in Europe - correspondence, account and order books all the way back to the early 18th century.
    My Wardrobe
    II est de forts parfums pour qui toute matière/Est poreuse. On dirait qu'ils pénètrent le verre.

  25. #25

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    I'm way backed up on my reading of the rec.mensa newsgroup and the participants there are concerned for me. Thought provoking stuff here, truly.

  26. #26

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    I think Heritage is the Classy and Sophisticated cousin of Kouros. Heritage always reminds me of Kouros.
    "...but I also can't prove that mushrooms could not be intergalactic spaceships spying on us." Daniel C. Dennett

    Top 5
    1.
    Heritage 2. Antaeus3.Kouros 4. Drakkar Noir 5. Montana PDH

  27. #27

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    Jicky, MdM and Heritage share that Guerlainade of Earl Grey tea with sugar and cream, that someone accidently squeezed a lemon into, mixed with the rancid smell that fills the air every-time an old Aristocrat opens their mouth.

  28. #28

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruggles View Post
    Jicky, MdM and Heritage share that Guerlainade of Earl Grey tea with sugar and cream, that someone accidently squeezed a lemon into, mixed with the rancid smell that fills the air every-time an old Aristocrat opens their mouth.

    Now that's definitely the best thing written in this thread.

    I love descriptions like these.

    Well done Ruggles.

    scentemental

  29. #29

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    After all the talk: What then is L'instant pour homme? Someone who has forgotten his Héritage, for having instant success? Some "bastard"? I think we had some discussion on this (wether L'instant is a sign for "The fall of the house of Guerlain" or not) some time ago... However, if allowed to stretch the thread's name: Is there any connection between older fragrances of Guerlain and L'instant?

    Steffen

  30. #30

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    L'Instant is how long it lasts that's if you even get a chance to sniff it. The slightest interruption.

  31. #31

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    Quote Originally Posted by DesGrieux View Post
    After all the talk: What then is L'instant pour homme? Someone who has forgotten his Héritage, for having instant success? Some "bastard"? I think we had some discussion on this (wether L'instant is a sign for "The fall of the house of Guerlain" or not) some time ago... However, if allowed to stretch the thread's name: Is there any connection between older fragrances of Guerlain and L'instant?

    Steffen
    All the creations, post-1994/LVMH, that bear the Guerlain family name are not bâtards, but adoptives. L'Instant de Guerlain pour Homme is a Guerlain in name only. Created by Béatrice Piquet and Sylvaine Delacourte, in vitro no doubt, it bears none of the Guerlain genes. So, it has no relationship to Jicky, Mouchoir de Monsieur or Héritage, no matter who the DNA on Monsieur's handkerchief belongs too!
    As far as the name goes, it would have been more aptly named if it was called Guerlain Instantané. As they say, "just add water".
    Last edited by Kevin Guyer; 18th March 2007 at 09:58 PM. Reason: Home improvement

  32. #32

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    Chris, Marcello, and Scentamental, those long posts were a delight to read.

    But I just want to add my 2 cents in on the place of Héritage in all of this.

    I don't think Guerlain was at any point influenced by Deconstuctionism or Structuralism. So there is nothing ironical or distanced about Héritage. Héritage is the work of a house that is appealing to the bourgeoise and self-consciously aristocratic component of French society that is tired of revolutions, tired of protests in the street, tired of punk and anarchy as cultural symbols, tired of cultural decline, tired of left-wing rancour. In 1989 this must have seemed a potent call for tradition and standards — for Racine and Moliere over Plastic Bertrand. This is the House of Guerlain tieing its colours to the mast and declaring what it is for. They are for the aspiring stable middle class. And how does one appeal to that class?: one presents it with an image of an aristocratic world that has all but disappeared. A world that the bourgeois film star, merchant, politician, housewife, wants to inhabit — filling up the want with themselves. (It is interesting that there is such a strongly Anglophile element in Habit Rouge, and one can detect it in Héritage as well.)

    This doesn't say anything at all about who was wearing Jicky or Mouchier de Monsieur at the end of the Nineteenth Century, but I suspect that Guerlain would claim that it was the same clientele as now.

    (Scentemental: how did cicadas get confused with bees? I'm quite fascinated by that story!)
    Last edited by Eluard; 18th March 2007 at 11:54 PM.
    There are people to whom the truth of language does not matter — they are known as liars.

  33. #33

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eluard View Post
    Chris, Marcello, and Scentamental, those long posts were a delight to read.

    But I just want to add my 2 cents in on the place of Héritage in all of this.

    I don't think Guerlain was at any point influenced by Deconstuctionism or Structuralism. So there is nothing ironical or distanced about Héritage. Héritage is the work of a house that is appealing to the bourgeoise and self-consciously aristocratic component of French society that is tired of revolutions, tired of protests in the street, tired of punk and anarchy as cultural symbols, tired of cultural decline, tired of left-wing rancour. In 1989 this must have seemed a potent call for tradition and standards — for Racine and Moliere over Plastic Bertrand. This is the House of Guerlain tieing its colours to the mast and declaring what it is for. They are for the aspiring stable middle class. And how does one appeal to that class?: one presents it with an image of an aristocratic world that has all but disappeared. A world that the bourgeois film star, merchant, politician, housewife, wants to inhabit — filling up the want with themselves. (It is interesting that there is such a strongly Anglophile element in Habit Rouge, and one can detect it in Héritage as well.)

    This doesn't say anything at all about who was wearing Jicky or Mouchier de Monsieur at the end of the Nineteenth Century, but I suspect that Guerlain would claim that it was the same clientele as now.

    (Scentemental: how did cicadas get confused with bees? I'm quite fascinated by that story!)
    Eluard,

    Glad you've enjoyed the post in this thread.

    I really like your characterization of the prevailing ethos of 1980s France and its connection to its heritage and to Héritage itself. It makes a lot of sense.

    The cicadas to bees story is fascinating, isn't it?

    There are two possible answers that I can think of:

    To quote Samuel Johnson--who was assailed by a rather haughty, supercilious member of the aristocracy and grilled about the fact that in his dictionary (the first English dictionary, which he single handedly edited himself, BTW) he mistakenly defined the word pastern as the hoof of a horse, when, as she reminded Johnson, every one knew it was the knee joint of a horse, to which he then disarmingly replied--"Ignorance Madam, sheer ignorance."

    Another possible answer might be that the bee with its reputation of industriousness and the ability to build became and insect that accorded more symbolically with the empire building industriousness of Napoleon or even earlier with the absolutism of the French monarchy. This, of course, is mere speculation, but, hey, at least I tried.

    Best regards,

    scentemental
    Last edited by scentemental; 19th March 2007 at 12:50 AM.

  34. #34

    Wink Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eluard View Post
    Chris, Marcello, and Scentamental, those long posts were a delight to read.

    But I just want to add my 2 cents in on the place of Héritage in all of this.

    I don't think Guerlain was at any point influenced by Deconstuctionism or Structuralism. So there is nothing ironical or distanced about Héritage. Héritage is the work of a house that is appealing to the bourgeoise and self-consciously aristocratic component of French society that is tired of revolutions, tired of protests in the street, tired of punk and anarchy as cultural symbols, tired of cultural decline, tired of left-wing rancour. In 1989 this must have seemed a potent call for tradition and standards — for Racine and Moliere over Plastic Bertrand. This is the House of Guerlain tieing its colours to the mast and declaring what it is for. They are for the aspiring stable middle class. And how does one appeal to that class?: one presents it with an image of an aristocratic world that has all but disappeared. A world that the bourgeois film star, merchant, politician, housewife, wants to inhabit — filling up the want with themselves. (It is interesting that there is such a strongly Anglophile element in Habit Rouge, and one can detect it in Héritage as well.)

    This doesn't say anything at all about who was wearing Jicky or Mouchier de Monsieur at the end of the Nineteenth Century, but I suspect that Guerlain would claim that it was the same clientele as now.

    (Scentemental: how did cicadas get confused with bees? I'm quite fascinated by that story!)
    Of course Guerlain didn't intend the name Heritage to be a post-modernist construct, they were too busy looking after their bourgeoise! But they did come up with a loaded name at the apex of the post-modernist period. As as result, I think that they're an open target for a de-constructive critique.
    When someone buys an object from a bourgeois institution, one is not beholden to that seller's bourgeois politics or intentions.
    As far as your Guerlain/Anglophile statement, are you saying that Gallic Guerlain was trying to connect to the British monarchy to appeal to the dreams of France's aristorcratic wannabes? What's next for Guerlain? A celebrity fragrance?
    Last edited by Kevin Guyer; 19th March 2007 at 12:25 PM. Reason: Capriciousness!

  35. #35

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruggles View Post
    All the creations, post-1994/LVMH, that bear the Guerlain family name are not bâtards, but adoptives. L'Instant de Guerlain pour Homme is a Guerlain in name only. Created by Béatrice Piquet and Sylvaine Delacourte, in vitro no doubt, it bears none of the Guerlain genes. So, it has no relationship to Jicky, Mouchoir de Monsieur or Héritage, no matter who the DNA on Monsieur's handkerchief belongs too!
    As far as the name goes, it would have been more aptly named if it was called Guerlain Instantané. As they say, "just add water".
    I think there's a lot of truth it what you say Ruggles. The Guerlinade drydown in its various modulations is nowhere to be found in L'Instant de Guerlain Pour Homme; instead, we have the ubiquitous white musk basenote drydown, which definitely, at least for me, makes it very un-Guerlain like and decidedly modern with no appreciable connection to the Guerlain tradition. L'Instant (the moment) is definitely a new moment for Guerlain, or to put it another way with the idea of tradition in mind: the momentum of tradition has been stopped and a new momentum has been given to another tradition. It remains to be seen where this momentum will take Guerlain and whether its subsequent creations can create an endurance as impressive as the older tradition.

    This is no judgment of the relative merits of the fragrance or the new direction; it's more of contrastive observation designed to show why I agree with Ruggles.

    scentemental

  36. #36

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    Great stuff, I enjoyed reading scentemental's (and others) detailed and indepth posts (I will hopefully be back soon to post more in the forum)
    -

  37. #37

    wicozani's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    Bravo! [claps and whistles]

    This thread certainly ranks among the best of the very best, exemplifying the truly impressive knowledge and acumen that members of this forum can occasionally bring to bear!

  38. #38

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    We all, more or less, agree that Jicky was a true revolutionary fragrance and that Mouchier de Monsieur continued to blaze new trails begun by that masterpiece. It's been suggested that Habit Rouge was an appeal to Anglophiles and that perhaps Héritage continued this trend by targeting the nouveau-riche who wanted to affiliate themselves with something aristoratic. This leads us to 1999's creation, Coriolan, named after the 5th Century B.C. Roman General. The fragrance was discontinued, or perhaps assassinated by LVMH. It was the last men's fragrance created by Jean Paul Guerlain.
    Considering its creation followed the LVMH take-over of Guerlain, was it an act of war declared by Monsieur Guerlain on Monsieur Arnault? Or was it just a bad scent?
    I've never sampled Coriolan before, but a bottle is on its way to my home. Will I smell blood mixed in with its Guerlinade?

  39. #39

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruggles View Post
    Of course Guerlain didn't intend the name Heritage to be a post-modernist construct, they were too busy looking after their bourgeoise! But they did come up with a loaded name at the apex of the post-modernist period. As as result, I think that they're an open target for a de-constructive critique.
    Just a question: would they not be a target if they had chosen the name at some other moment? After all, what importance does deconstruction have if it was irrelevant to Guerlain? I'm just not sure I see the justification here.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ruggles View Post
    When someone buys an object from a bourgeois institution, one is not beholden to that seller's bourgeois politics or intentions.
    As far as your Guerlain/Anglophile statement, are you saying that Gallic Guerlain was trying to connect to the British monarchy to appeal to the dreams of France's aristorcratic wannabes? What's next for Guerlain? A celebrity fragrance?
    The problem for France and its image of an aristocratic clientele is that France doesn't really have one. They executed their aristocrats some time ago. So all they have is the bourgeoise who replaced them. Thus if Guerlain wants images of an unbroken chain of aristocracy they have to look elsewhere, and my suggestion is that they are looking to the British aristocracy. Habit Rouge is a direct reference to the hunting jackets worn by the British fox hunting class. So when you say "As far as your Guerlain/Anglophile statement, are you saying that Gallic Guerlain was trying to connect to the British monarchy to appeal to the dreams of France's aristorcratic wannabes?" Yes, that is what i am saying.

    (I didn't want my post to come across as terribly argumentative: I mostly agree with what you are pointing out here.)
    Last edited by Eluard; 20th March 2007 at 10:08 AM.
    There are people to whom the truth of language does not matter — they are known as liars.

  40. #40

    Thumbs up Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    [QUOTE=Eluard;998750]Just a question: would they not be a target if they had chosen the name at some other moment? After all, what importance does deconstruction have if it was irrelevant to Guerlain? I'm just not sure I see the justification here.
    "
    Hello Eluard. It's my personal choice to use a "Post-Modern" argument to explore the highly artificial language of Guerlain. A company that gives "concrete names" to abstract ideas and creates formulas based on those abstract ideas is tailor-made for a school of thinking that explores the use of symbols and their signifiers.
    From what you have written, I guess you don't think that Habit Bleu would have sounded as good as Habit Rouge?
    So what about Derby? Should they have named it Bonnie Prince Charlie and stopped "futzing" around? Also, please respond to my Coriolan query.
    I do not have a problem with your rigorous tone. I like it.
    Last edited by Kevin Guyer; 20th March 2007 at 12:09 PM. Reason: capriciousness!

  41. #41

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruggles View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Eluard View Post
    Just a question: would they not be a target if they had chosen the name at some other moment? After all, what importance does deconstruction have if it was irrelevant to Guerlain? I'm just not sure I see the justification here.
    "
    Hello Eluard. It's my personal choice to use a "Post-Modern" argument to explore the highly artificial language of Guerlain. A company that gives "concrete names" to abstract ideas and creates formulas based on those abstract ideas is tailor-made for a school of thinking that explores the use of symbols and their signifiers.
    From what you have written, I guess you don't think that Habit Bleu would have sounded as good as Habit Rouge?
    Are there any blue riding jackets? The jackets are red btw so that the blood doesn't show up.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ruggles View Post
    So what about Derby? Should they have named it Bonnie Prince Charlie and stopped "futzing" around? Also, please respond to my Coriolan query.
    I do not have a problem with your rigorous tone. I like it.
    Well Bonnie Prince Charlie was the would-be King of England/Scotland in the 18th Century. I assume you mean Prince Charles, the current one. I don't think that English royalty is being referenced so much as the Dukes and Baronets — but yes, Derby is a hat worn by the English more than the French, and English aristocrats at that. It goes with saville Row tailoring and John Steed of The Avengers.

    Coriolan is a rather weak, woody fragrance that is too weak for me to detect much of the traditional Guerlainade. But it is certainly more Guerlain-like than L'Instant.
    There are people to whom the truth of language does not matter — they are known as liars.

  42. #42

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    My 2ps worth:

    Surely true aristocrats of any era would have been buying bespoke fragrance? Guerlain's clientelle (for production perfumes) would thus always have been aspirational bourgoise in their different incarnations through the ages?

    I think that Heritage was (and still is) a statement of learned quality over zeitgeist, for me this makes it the polar opposite of the post modern, post stucturalist, post anything else myth. It is constructed on solid and well tried foundations. It sticks out like a bastion of concrete rational constructivism among the feather-weight self-agrandisers who justify deconstruction with semantic trickery.

    As far as I know, Guerlain has never made an aquatic fragrance.
    Last edited by hirch_duckfinder; 20th March 2007 at 04:11 PM.
    "Don’t try to be original. Be simple. Be good technically, and if there is something in you, it will come out. ” - Henri Matisse.

    "Wear R de Capucci" - Hirch Duckfinder

    reviews

  43. #43
    Dependent pluran's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    Whew.....

    Jicky, Mouchoir de Monsieur, Derby, and Héritage are all amazing but I still prefer Mitsouko (pre-EU regulations) and the original Habit Rouge EDC.

  44. #44

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    and now with quivering, bebunnyslippered feet I lay down and bask in the glory of .....

    Creed

    nice footwork duckmeister

    I like cologne
    Last edited by fredricktoo; 20th March 2007 at 04:40 PM.

  45. #45

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    [QUOTE=Eluard;998814]Are there any blue riding jackets? The jackets are red btw so that the blood doesn't show up.

    RUGGLES: Yes, as a matter of fact, the French habit de cheval for the stag hunt is a dark blue redingote. There are no foxes involved in the French hunt, only wild boars and stags. Unlike the English, at the end of the hunt, the French actually eat what they've hunted.

    (QUOTE=Eluard) Well Bonnie Prince Charlie was the would-be King of England/Scotland in the 18th Century. I assume you mean Prince Charles, the current one. I don't think that English royalty is being referenced so much as the Dukes and Baronets — but yes, Derby is a hat worn by the English more than the French, and English aristocrats at that. It goes with saville Row tailoring and John Steed of The Avengers.

    RUGGLES: My Bonnie Prince Charlie connection with Derby is this: the Catholic Prince Regent rode into the town of Derby, England in 1745 upon his horse while leading the insurgency of the Jacobites. He spent much of his life in France living in exile.
    The trio of Habit Rouge, Derby (think Epsom Downs and Kentucky, not the hat), Heritage and Coriolan reference France's equestrian tradition and are not about Anglo mania at all.
    They are also Guerlain's direct response to the increasing competition from the number of men's fragrances being produced by very horsey house of Hermes.
    Last edited by Kevin Guyer; 20th March 2007 at 09:04 PM. Reason: capriciousness!

  46. #46

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    Quote Originally Posted by hirch_duckfinder View Post
    Surely true aristocrats of any era would have been buying bespoke fragrance? Guerlain's clientelle (for production perfumes) would thus always have been aspirational bourgoise in their different incarnations through the ages? . . .
    Quoted directly from the official Guerlain website:
    Inspired by the beauty and elegance of the Empress Eugénie [wife of Napoleon III], Pierre François-Pascal Guerlain [founder of the house of Guerlain] created EAU DE COLOGNE IMPERIAL in her honour. Seduced by his refined EAU, the Empress conferred upon Guerlain the title of Her Majesty’s Official Perfumer, the very pinnacle of imperial ranking.
    Guerlain, I believe, also created fragrances for other European houses and even bespoke fragrances for some individual royal personages.

    Floris, the oldest English perfume house in existence (begun in 1730), was granted its first Royal Warrant in 1820, and since then has held no less than sixteen royal warrants from the British monarchy. Currently, it holds two royal warrants: as the official perfumer of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II and as the official supplier of toiletries to the Prince of Wales.

    Indeed, the very first customers of the purveyors of perfumed products were the aristocracy. Modern perfumery has it origins in scented gloves created for the aristocracy of Europe in the 1500s based on the need to give the leather a more agreeable smell but more increasingly as a means of staving off the bad smells rampant in European cities of the time. Gloves were usually worn or carried to be sniffed when one come into contact with noisome odors. Specifically, Catherine de Medici introduced the practice of wearing and also carrying scented gloves when she came to France in 1533 to marry the then Duke of Orleans, who was later to become Henry II of France. The practice of wearing and carrying scented gloves was adopted wholesale by the British aristocracy, with Queen Elizabeth I its greatest adherent.

    Grasse, for example, began as a center which tanned leather, and then turned into a center which concerned itself with the perfuming of leather gloves and even eventually become of the world’s great centers for the production and processing of quality natural perfume ingredients. Perfumers in the sixteenth and seventeenth century were almost always members of the glovers guilds. The current niche company Maître Parfumeur et Gantier (translated as Master Perfumer and Glover), in fact, carries on this dual tradition by producing both fragrances and gloves.


    Whatever its current trajectory, perfumery has always been and much of it--particularly historical French houses--continues to be intimately connected with the aristocracy, aristocratic traditions, and aristocratic values. I am sure there have always been middle class buyers of fragrances and in large numbers, but that's not the whole story.

    scentemental
    Last edited by scentemental; 21st March 2007 at 02:19 PM.

  47. #47

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    An older perfume house in Italy, probably the oldest in the world:

    Officina Profumi-Farmaceutica di Santa Maria Novella, no. 16, Via della Scala, FIRENZE - since 1612 (official) .

    According to less certain records, the story of this house seems to have been traced back to the 13th century. Books of accounts seem to still exist containing records of the year 1542. http://www.smnovella.it/

    The original Eau de Cologne factory of Farina was finished in 1709. http://www.farina-haus.de/
    Last edited by narcus; 21st March 2007 at 02:20 PM.
    'Il mondo dei profumi è un universo senza limiti: una fraganza puo rievocare sensazioni, luoghi, persone o ancora condurre in uno spazio di nuove dimensioni emozionali' L. V.

  48. #48

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?


    Correction to my above post duly noted and made. Thanks Narcus.

    scentemental


  49. #49

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    Quote Originally Posted by scentemental View Post
    Quoted directly from the official Guerlain website:
    Inspired by the beauty and elegance of the Empress Eugénie [wife of Napoleon III], Pierre François-Pascal Guerlain [founder of the house of Guerlain] created EAU DE COLOGNE IMPERIAL in her honour. Seduced by his refined EAU, the Empress conferred upon Guerlain the title of Her Majesty’s Official Perfumer, the very pinnacle of imperial ranking.
    Guerlain, I believe, also created fragrances for other European houses and even bespoke fragrances for some individual royal personages.

    Floris, the oldest English perfume house in existence (begun in 1730), was granted its first Royal Warrant in 1820, and since then has held no less than sixteen royal warrants from the British monarchy. Currently, it holds two royal warrants: as the official perfumer of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II and as the official supplier of toiletries to the Prince of Wales.

    Indeed, the very first customers of the purveyors of perfumed products were the aristocracy. Modern perfumery has it origins in scented gloves created for the aristocracy of Europe in the 1500s based on the need to give the leather a more agreeable smell but more increasingly as a means of staving off the bad smells rampant in European cities of the time. Gloves were usually worn or carried to be sniffed when one come into contact with noisome odors. Specifically, Catherine de Medici introduced the practice of wearing and also carrying scented gloves when she came to France in 1533 to marry the then Duke of Orleans, who was later to become Henry II of France. The practice of wearing and carrying scented gloves was adopted wholesale by the British aristocracy, with Queen Elizabeth I its greatest adherent.

    Grasse, for example, began as a center which tanned leather, and then turned into a center which concerned itself with the perfuming of leather gloves and even eventually become of the world’s great centers for the production and processing of quality natural perfume ingredients. Perfumers in the sixteenth and seventeenth century were almost always members of the glovers guilds. The current niche company Maître Parfumeur et Gantier (translated as Master Perfumer and Glover), in fact, carries on this dual tradition by producing both fragrances and gloves.


    Whatever its current trajectory, perfumery has always been and much of it--particularly historical French houses--continues to be intimately connected with the aristocracy, aristocratic traditions, and aristocratic values. I am sure there have always been middle class buyers of fragrances and in large numbers, but that's not the whole story.

    scentemental
    Scentemental, I believe you have endorsed my point. I wrote that (snip)... guerlain's clientelle for production perfumes...(snip). Guerlain made bespoke perfumes for aristocracy, then used the gravitas attained doing this to sell to middle class buyers who aspired to be like the true old-moneyed aristocrats whose families had been educated for centuries.

    Middle class buyers are certainly not the whole story, but I bet bet they have had a more significant impact on the accounts than the aristocracy.
    "Don’t try to be original. Be simple. Be good technically, and if there is something in you, it will come out. ” - Henri Matisse.

    "Wear R de Capucci" - Hirch Duckfinder

    reviews

  50. #50

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    Quote Originally Posted by narcus View Post
    An older perfume house in Italy, probably the oldest in the world:

    Officina Profumi-Farmaceutica di Santa Maria Novella, no. 16, Via della Scala, FIRENZE - since 1612 (official) .

    According to less certain records, the story of this house seems to have been traced back to the 13th century. Books of accounts seem to still exist containing records of the year 1542. http://www.smnovella.it/

    The original Eau de Cologne factory of Farina was finished in 1709. http://www.farina-haus.de/
    Didnt SMN start off as a pharmacy?

    Floris was initiated as a barbershop in 1730 but their first cologne was released in 1786.

    SMN was initiated as a pharmacy in the 15th century but their first cologne was released in 1828.

    Creed was initiated as a saddle maker (?) in 1760 but their first cologne was released in 1780.

    The oldest french perfume house proper might be Galimard, established in 1747 as a perfume house, but as narcus mentions, the oldest in the world might be Farina.
    -

  51. #51

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    Quote Originally Posted by zztopp View Post
    SMN was initiated as a pharmacy in the 15th century but their first cologne was released in 1828....
    In case you do not say this because Garofano is the oldest perfume listed in BN’s directory, where is this information from, zztopp? Everybody has heard of Catarina di Medici and her (in)famous perfumers she brought with her to France. In all likelihood SMN made one 'Eau de La Reine' for her which can possibly still be purchased. I see it nowhere listed. Here is more: http://historicalperfumes.chez-alice...TAMARIANOVELLA

    Back to Guerlain, and without reference to any post in particular - I read the whole five pages of this unusual discussion yesterday - I would like to add a few things that might be worth recalling: The 19th century has brought a lot of of changes to continental Europe and the world. Imperialism and Colonialism came to a peak, and oriental influence as well as advanced fragrance chemistry didn’t stop before the gates of Paris and Guerlain. Politically, it not only involved ambitious leaders, but challenged the entire population to fight internal (social) battles following the Bastille storm for more than a lifetime. There were several Kings (re-) installed and forced to flee again, ‘aristocratic’ ones and others. There was a young upshot, self made consul who imitated some of what he had despised in beheaded rulers - and created a new dynasty of his own!

    Yes, also perfume goes where the money is, but the French local market was not to be ignored. Substantial demand from abroad made the French perfume and fashion industries grow fast (Worth (!); E. Zola: Au Bonheur des Dames, 1883). Major demand came from Russia and North America, and also of course from Britain where some French nobility and politicians traditionally sought refuge, including the last French emperor, Napoleon III with his wife, Eugenie de Montijo, daughter of a Spanish fruit merchant.

    At the same time, most of the important liberty movements which shattered old orders in Europe have started from Paris. The capital had not become the manifestation of urban beauty only, and a model city for much of the world, it was the place to be for French intellectuals and artists, and many other nationalities as well. 1889 hasn’t been just another year for Paris as it celebrated the 100th anniversary of the revolution. France was a prosperous, liberal republic at last! This was also the year when the Tour Eiffel was completed - not just by coincidence. I see it as an almost religious commitment of the people to the goals of liberty and equality. The republic had demonstrated the same attitude once before when the French people donated the Statue of Liberty to the American people in 1886. More down to earth: the Moulin Rouge opens it’s doors in this year 1989, one year after the Olympia music hall, and three years after the Folies Bergère.

    A bit of all that is contained in the bouquet of
    Jicky!
    But you have to appreciate her as a daughter of her time, comparable to similarly old perfumes. Jicky breaks with all royal tributes Guerlain had paid to Napoleon III and his Lady before they sought exile in England (The BN directory 1863’c’ series, like Bouquet Napoleon, Bouquet de L’Imperatrice, Delice du Prince). I have read no document hinting to it, but as Jicky has been designed for women, it must have been for the modern, emancipated woman (womens lib began to gain shape at the time). Ironically throughout its own past, Jicky seems to have been less popular with women.

    I keep hearing that many men wore it from the beginning, but I have my doubts concerning the character of masculine preferences during the 19th century. Mouchoir de Monsieur , is almost a next generation scent. And there is indeed some affinity to Jicky. I take MdM as a hint on what men may generally have preferred around 1900. Some novel contained a passage whereby Jicky was popular among young lieutenants. This may have been the case in Austria before WW1, and I wonder if the young men wore it on home visits. Is it just me who believes to detect historical demi-monde in Jicky? This perfume seems to laugh aristocratic ambitions away, and I find the direct sensuality rather captivating. Whatever - a certain elegance can also not be denied.
    Last edited by narcus; 21st April 2007 at 09:58 AM.
    'Il mondo dei profumi è un universo senza limiti: una fraganza puo rievocare sensazioni, luoghi, persone o ancora condurre in uno spazio di nuove dimensioni emozionali' L. V.

  52. #52

    Wink Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    Quote Originally Posted by narcus View Post
    I keep hearing that many men wore it from the beginning, but I have my doubts concerning the character of masculine preferences during the 19th century. Mouchoir de Monsieur , is almost a next generation scent. And there is indeed some affinity to Jicky. I take MdM as a hint on what men may generally have preferred around 1900. Some novel contained a passage whereby Jicky was popular among young lieutenants. This may have been the case in Austria before WW1, and I wonder if the young men wore it on home visits. Is it just me who believes to detect historical demi-monde in Jicky? This perfume seems to laugh aristocratic ambitions away, and I find the direct sensuality rather captivating. Whatever - a certain elegance can also not be ignored.
    Perhaps the soldiers wore Jicky as a simulation of that after sex smell. Sort of like not washing one's fingers after a night of passion, so one can savor the memory until it fades away. A most brilliant post Narcus!

  53. #53

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    Quote Originally Posted by narcus View Post
    An older perfume house in Italy, probably the oldest in the world:

    Officina Profumi-Farmaceutica di Santa Maria Novella, no. 16, Via della Scala, FIRENZE - since 1612 (official) .

    According to less certain records, the story of this house seems to have been traced back to the 13th century. Books of accounts seem to still exist containing records of the year 1542. http://www.smnovella.it/
    C.J.S. Thompson writes 'The [Venetian] fashion soon spread south to Florence, for as early as 1508 a laboratory for the manufacture of perfumes was founded in the monastery of Santa Maria Novella in that city', (The Mystery and Lure of Perfume, Bodley Head, 1927).
    Last edited by michaeld39; 22nd March 2007 at 04:28 PM. Reason: bad spellin!
    .
    .
    "The grand essentials of happiness are: something to do, something to love, and something to hope for", Allan Chalmers.

  54. #54

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    Quote Originally Posted by hirch_duckfinder View Post
    I think that Heritage was (and still is) a statement of learned quality over zeitgeist, for me this makes it the polar opposite of the post modern, post stucturalist, post anything else myth. It is constructed on solid and well tried foundations. It sticks out like a bastion of concrete rational constructivism among the feather-weight self-agrandisers who justify deconstruction with semantic trickery.

    As far as I know, Guerlain has never made an aquatic fragrance.
    With the recently deceased Arthur Schlesinger Jr. one might say that Héritage embodies a fragrant vital center, avoiding the flights of fancy of postmodern Zeitgeist as well as the aristocratic daring of breaking the rules you know too well.

    I agree that Guerlain presents itself as a stalwart of continuity, of héritage, even if economically, they are now part of LVMH's late (late late etc.) capitalism. PoMo is something for niches to do, or avant-garde fashion houses, and I believe Comme des Garcons is (or was) the quintessential postmodern fragrance brand, deconstructing the very idea of perfume with the likes of Odeur 53, but (more subtly) really in all their products.

    But what then is the héritage Guerlain embodies? Purely in metaphorical, rather than historical or sociological terms, Héritage seems to smooth and perfect for me to be considered aristocratic. The aristocrat affords himself jouissance, he is, in Tocqueville's words, a true individual who will stand by himself, while the democratic bourgeois is a conformist. In terms of fragrance the nobleman can be risqué, he can play with stink, for his status is beyond question, that means civet, heavy leather, edgy musk. MKK is in this sense an aristocratic fragrance. On the other hand you have the bourgeois "deviants" rebelling against the order that produced them, or toying with rebellion at least, by wearing Jicky (1890s) or Patchouli (1960s) or Odeur 53 (1990s). Héritage on the other hand is the smooth, quality conscious perfection of the haute bourgeoisie at a point where it has not been infected with the decadence of a long entrenched ruling elite, brims with self-confidence, confidently looks down upon the dregs of the earth, whom it shall reform at pleasure...a nice memory to be wearing in a time when cultural leadership emanates from...Paris Hilton. Of course we all know that this bourgeois self-image is only half the story (cf. Luis Bunuel, or Marcus' The other Victorians). But it makes for a great perfume.
    My Wardrobe
    II est de forts parfums pour qui toute matière/Est poreuse. On dirait qu'ils pénètrent le verre.

  55. #55

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    ***
    Last edited by scentemental; 22nd March 2007 at 09:22 PM.

  56. #56

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    I believe the essential paradigm of Guerlain is creating partially situated identities out of actual or potential social reality in terms of canonical forms of human contact, thus renormalizing the phenomenology of narrative space and requiring the naturalization of the intersubjective cognitive strategy, and thereby resolving the dialectics of metaphorical thoughts, each problematic to the other, collectively redefining and reifying the paradigm of the parable of the model of the metaphor.

  57. #57

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    Quote Originally Posted by fredricktoo View Post
    I believe the essential paradigm of Guerlain is creating partially situated identities out of actual or potential social reality in terms of canonical forms of human contact, thus renormalizing the phenomenology of narrative space and requiring the naturalization of the intersubjective cognitive strategy, and thereby resolving the dialectics of metaphorical thoughts, each problematic to the other, collectively redefining and reifying the paradigm of the parable of the model of the metaphor.
    Couldn't have put it better myself.

    Say goodnight Gracie.

  58. #58
    DON'T DRINK AND DRESS

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    Cool Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    Yeah...what Fredricktoo said.
    'Those who grow too big for their pants will be exposed in the end'--anon

  59. #59

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    I am left with a bad feeling from this.
    "Don’t try to be original. Be simple. Be good technically, and if there is something in you, it will come out. ” - Henri Matisse.

    "Wear R de Capucci" - Hirch Duckfinder

    reviews

  60. #60

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    good night gracie

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