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  1. #31

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    Quote Originally Posted by DesGrieux View Post
    After all the talk: What then is L'instant pour homme? Someone who has forgotten his Héritage, for having instant success? Some "bastard"? I think we had some discussion on this (wether L'instant is a sign for "The fall of the house of Guerlain" or not) some time ago... However, if allowed to stretch the thread's name: Is there any connection between older fragrances of Guerlain and L'instant?

    Steffen
    All the creations, post-1994/LVMH, that bear the Guerlain family name are not bâtards, but adoptives. L'Instant de Guerlain pour Homme is a Guerlain in name only. Created by Béatrice Piquet and Sylvaine Delacourte, in vitro no doubt, it bears none of the Guerlain genes. So, it has no relationship to Jicky, Mouchoir de Monsieur or Héritage, no matter who the DNA on Monsieur's handkerchief belongs too!
    As far as the name goes, it would have been more aptly named if it was called Guerlain Instantané. As they say, "just add water".
    Last edited by Kevin Guyer; 18th March 2007 at 09:58 PM. Reason: Home improvement

  2. #32

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    Chris, Marcello, and Scentamental, those long posts were a delight to read.

    But I just want to add my 2 cents in on the place of Héritage in all of this.

    I don't think Guerlain was at any point influenced by Deconstuctionism or Structuralism. So there is nothing ironical or distanced about Héritage. Héritage is the work of a house that is appealing to the bourgeoise and self-consciously aristocratic component of French society that is tired of revolutions, tired of protests in the street, tired of punk and anarchy as cultural symbols, tired of cultural decline, tired of left-wing rancour. In 1989 this must have seemed a potent call for tradition and standards — for Racine and Moliere over Plastic Bertrand. This is the House of Guerlain tieing its colours to the mast and declaring what it is for. They are for the aspiring stable middle class. And how does one appeal to that class?: one presents it with an image of an aristocratic world that has all but disappeared. A world that the bourgeois film star, merchant, politician, housewife, wants to inhabit — filling up the want with themselves. (It is interesting that there is such a strongly Anglophile element in Habit Rouge, and one can detect it in Héritage as well.)

    This doesn't say anything at all about who was wearing Jicky or Mouchier de Monsieur at the end of the Nineteenth Century, but I suspect that Guerlain would claim that it was the same clientele as now.

    (Scentemental: how did cicadas get confused with bees? I'm quite fascinated by that story!)
    Last edited by Eluard; 18th March 2007 at 11:54 PM.
    There are people to whom the truth of language does not matter — they are known as liars.

  3. #33

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eluard View Post
    Chris, Marcello, and Scentamental, those long posts were a delight to read.

    But I just want to add my 2 cents in on the place of Héritage in all of this.

    I don't think Guerlain was at any point influenced by Deconstuctionism or Structuralism. So there is nothing ironical or distanced about Héritage. Héritage is the work of a house that is appealing to the bourgeoise and self-consciously aristocratic component of French society that is tired of revolutions, tired of protests in the street, tired of punk and anarchy as cultural symbols, tired of cultural decline, tired of left-wing rancour. In 1989 this must have seemed a potent call for tradition and standards — for Racine and Moliere over Plastic Bertrand. This is the House of Guerlain tieing its colours to the mast and declaring what it is for. They are for the aspiring stable middle class. And how does one appeal to that class?: one presents it with an image of an aristocratic world that has all but disappeared. A world that the bourgeois film star, merchant, politician, housewife, wants to inhabit — filling up the want with themselves. (It is interesting that there is such a strongly Anglophile element in Habit Rouge, and one can detect it in Héritage as well.)

    This doesn't say anything at all about who was wearing Jicky or Mouchier de Monsieur at the end of the Nineteenth Century, but I suspect that Guerlain would claim that it was the same clientele as now.

    (Scentemental: how did cicadas get confused with bees? I'm quite fascinated by that story!)
    Eluard,

    Glad you've enjoyed the post in this thread.

    I really like your characterization of the prevailing ethos of 1980s France and its connection to its heritage and to Héritage itself. It makes a lot of sense.

    The cicadas to bees story is fascinating, isn't it?

    There are two possible answers that I can think of:

    To quote Samuel Johnson--who was assailed by a rather haughty, supercilious member of the aristocracy and grilled about the fact that in his dictionary (the first English dictionary, which he single handedly edited himself, BTW) he mistakenly defined the word pastern as the hoof of a horse, when, as she reminded Johnson, every one knew it was the knee joint of a horse, to which he then disarmingly replied--"Ignorance Madam, sheer ignorance."

    Another possible answer might be that the bee with its reputation of industriousness and the ability to build became and insect that accorded more symbolically with the empire building industriousness of Napoleon or even earlier with the absolutism of the French monarchy. This, of course, is mere speculation, but, hey, at least I tried.

    Best regards,

    scentemental
    Last edited by scentemental; 19th March 2007 at 12:50 AM.

  4. #34

    Wink Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eluard View Post
    Chris, Marcello, and Scentamental, those long posts were a delight to read.

    But I just want to add my 2 cents in on the place of Héritage in all of this.

    I don't think Guerlain was at any point influenced by Deconstuctionism or Structuralism. So there is nothing ironical or distanced about Héritage. Héritage is the work of a house that is appealing to the bourgeoise and self-consciously aristocratic component of French society that is tired of revolutions, tired of protests in the street, tired of punk and anarchy as cultural symbols, tired of cultural decline, tired of left-wing rancour. In 1989 this must have seemed a potent call for tradition and standards — for Racine and Moliere over Plastic Bertrand. This is the House of Guerlain tieing its colours to the mast and declaring what it is for. They are for the aspiring stable middle class. And how does one appeal to that class?: one presents it with an image of an aristocratic world that has all but disappeared. A world that the bourgeois film star, merchant, politician, housewife, wants to inhabit — filling up the want with themselves. (It is interesting that there is such a strongly Anglophile element in Habit Rouge, and one can detect it in Héritage as well.)

    This doesn't say anything at all about who was wearing Jicky or Mouchier de Monsieur at the end of the Nineteenth Century, but I suspect that Guerlain would claim that it was the same clientele as now.

    (Scentemental: how did cicadas get confused with bees? I'm quite fascinated by that story!)
    Of course Guerlain didn't intend the name Heritage to be a post-modernist construct, they were too busy looking after their bourgeoise! But they did come up with a loaded name at the apex of the post-modernist period. As as result, I think that they're an open target for a de-constructive critique.
    When someone buys an object from a bourgeois institution, one is not beholden to that seller's bourgeois politics or intentions.
    As far as your Guerlain/Anglophile statement, are you saying that Gallic Guerlain was trying to connect to the British monarchy to appeal to the dreams of France's aristorcratic wannabes? What's next for Guerlain? A celebrity fragrance?
    Last edited by Kevin Guyer; 19th March 2007 at 12:25 PM. Reason: Capriciousness!

  5. #35

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruggles View Post
    All the creations, post-1994/LVMH, that bear the Guerlain family name are not bâtards, but adoptives. L'Instant de Guerlain pour Homme is a Guerlain in name only. Created by Béatrice Piquet and Sylvaine Delacourte, in vitro no doubt, it bears none of the Guerlain genes. So, it has no relationship to Jicky, Mouchoir de Monsieur or Héritage, no matter who the DNA on Monsieur's handkerchief belongs too!
    As far as the name goes, it would have been more aptly named if it was called Guerlain Instantané. As they say, "just add water".
    I think there's a lot of truth it what you say Ruggles. The Guerlinade drydown in its various modulations is nowhere to be found in L'Instant de Guerlain Pour Homme; instead, we have the ubiquitous white musk basenote drydown, which definitely, at least for me, makes it very un-Guerlain like and decidedly modern with no appreciable connection to the Guerlain tradition. L'Instant (the moment) is definitely a new moment for Guerlain, or to put it another way with the idea of tradition in mind: the momentum of tradition has been stopped and a new momentum has been given to another tradition. It remains to be seen where this momentum will take Guerlain and whether its subsequent creations can create an endurance as impressive as the older tradition.

    This is no judgment of the relative merits of the fragrance or the new direction; it's more of contrastive observation designed to show why I agree with Ruggles.

    scentemental

  6. #36
    zztopp's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    Great stuff, I enjoyed reading scentemental's (and others) detailed and indepth posts (I will hopefully be back soon to post more in the forum)
    -

  7. #37

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    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    Bravo! [claps and whistles]

    This thread certainly ranks among the best of the very best, exemplifying the truly impressive knowledge and acumen that members of this forum can occasionally bring to bear!

  8. #38

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    We all, more or less, agree that Jicky was a true revolutionary fragrance and that Mouchier de Monsieur continued to blaze new trails begun by that masterpiece. It's been suggested that Habit Rouge was an appeal to Anglophiles and that perhaps Héritage continued this trend by targeting the nouveau-riche who wanted to affiliate themselves with something aristoratic. This leads us to 1999's creation, Coriolan, named after the 5th Century B.C. Roman General. The fragrance was discontinued, or perhaps assassinated by LVMH. It was the last men's fragrance created by Jean Paul Guerlain.
    Considering its creation followed the LVMH take-over of Guerlain, was it an act of war declared by Monsieur Guerlain on Monsieur Arnault? Or was it just a bad scent?
    I've never sampled Coriolan before, but a bottle is on its way to my home. Will I smell blood mixed in with its Guerlinade?

  9. #39

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruggles View Post
    Of course Guerlain didn't intend the name Heritage to be a post-modernist construct, they were too busy looking after their bourgeoise! But they did come up with a loaded name at the apex of the post-modernist period. As as result, I think that they're an open target for a de-constructive critique.
    Just a question: would they not be a target if they had chosen the name at some other moment? After all, what importance does deconstruction have if it was irrelevant to Guerlain? I'm just not sure I see the justification here.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ruggles View Post
    When someone buys an object from a bourgeois institution, one is not beholden to that seller's bourgeois politics or intentions.
    As far as your Guerlain/Anglophile statement, are you saying that Gallic Guerlain was trying to connect to the British monarchy to appeal to the dreams of France's aristorcratic wannabes? What's next for Guerlain? A celebrity fragrance?
    The problem for France and its image of an aristocratic clientele is that France doesn't really have one. They executed their aristocrats some time ago. So all they have is the bourgeoise who replaced them. Thus if Guerlain wants images of an unbroken chain of aristocracy they have to look elsewhere, and my suggestion is that they are looking to the British aristocracy. Habit Rouge is a direct reference to the hunting jackets worn by the British fox hunting class. So when you say "As far as your Guerlain/Anglophile statement, are you saying that Gallic Guerlain was trying to connect to the British monarchy to appeal to the dreams of France's aristorcratic wannabes?" Yes, that is what i am saying.

    (I didn't want my post to come across as terribly argumentative: I mostly agree with what you are pointing out here.)
    Last edited by Eluard; 20th March 2007 at 10:08 AM.
    There are people to whom the truth of language does not matter — they are known as liars.

  10. #40

    Thumbs up Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    [QUOTE=Eluard;998750]Just a question: would they not be a target if they had chosen the name at some other moment? After all, what importance does deconstruction have if it was irrelevant to Guerlain? I'm just not sure I see the justification here.
    "
    Hello Eluard. It's my personal choice to use a "Post-Modern" argument to explore the highly artificial language of Guerlain. A company that gives "concrete names" to abstract ideas and creates formulas based on those abstract ideas is tailor-made for a school of thinking that explores the use of symbols and their signifiers.
    From what you have written, I guess you don't think that Habit Bleu would have sounded as good as Habit Rouge?
    So what about Derby? Should they have named it Bonnie Prince Charlie and stopped "futzing" around? Also, please respond to my Coriolan query.
    I do not have a problem with your rigorous tone. I like it.
    Last edited by Kevin Guyer; 20th March 2007 at 12:09 PM. Reason: capriciousness!

  11. #41

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruggles View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Eluard View Post
    Just a question: would they not be a target if they had chosen the name at some other moment? After all, what importance does deconstruction have if it was irrelevant to Guerlain? I'm just not sure I see the justification here.
    "
    Hello Eluard. It's my personal choice to use a "Post-Modern" argument to explore the highly artificial language of Guerlain. A company that gives "concrete names" to abstract ideas and creates formulas based on those abstract ideas is tailor-made for a school of thinking that explores the use of symbols and their signifiers.
    From what you have written, I guess you don't think that Habit Bleu would have sounded as good as Habit Rouge?
    Are there any blue riding jackets? The jackets are red btw so that the blood doesn't show up.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ruggles View Post
    So what about Derby? Should they have named it Bonnie Prince Charlie and stopped "futzing" around? Also, please respond to my Coriolan query.
    I do not have a problem with your rigorous tone. I like it.
    Well Bonnie Prince Charlie was the would-be King of England/Scotland in the 18th Century. I assume you mean Prince Charles, the current one. I don't think that English royalty is being referenced so much as the Dukes and Baronets — but yes, Derby is a hat worn by the English more than the French, and English aristocrats at that. It goes with saville Row tailoring and John Steed of The Avengers.

    Coriolan is a rather weak, woody fragrance that is too weak for me to detect much of the traditional Guerlainade. But it is certainly more Guerlain-like than L'Instant.
    There are people to whom the truth of language does not matter — they are known as liars.

  12. #42

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    My 2ps worth:

    Surely true aristocrats of any era would have been buying bespoke fragrance? Guerlain's clientelle (for production perfumes) would thus always have been aspirational bourgoise in their different incarnations through the ages?

    I think that Heritage was (and still is) a statement of learned quality over zeitgeist, for me this makes it the polar opposite of the post modern, post stucturalist, post anything else myth. It is constructed on solid and well tried foundations. It sticks out like a bastion of concrete rational constructivism among the feather-weight self-agrandisers who justify deconstruction with semantic trickery.

    As far as I know, Guerlain has never made an aquatic fragrance.
    Last edited by hirch_duckfinder; 20th March 2007 at 04:11 PM.
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  13. #43
    Dependent pluran's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    Whew.....

    Jicky, Mouchoir de Monsieur, Derby, and Héritage are all amazing but I still prefer Mitsouko (pre-EU regulations) and the original Habit Rouge EDC.

  14. #44
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    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    and now with quivering, bebunnyslippered feet I lay down and bask in the glory of .....

    Creed

    nice footwork duckmeister

    I like cologne
    Last edited by fredricktoo; 20th March 2007 at 04:40 PM.

  15. #45

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    [QUOTE=Eluard;998814]Are there any blue riding jackets? The jackets are red btw so that the blood doesn't show up.

    RUGGLES: Yes, as a matter of fact, the French habit de cheval for the stag hunt is a dark blue redingote. There are no foxes involved in the French hunt, only wild boars and stags. Unlike the English, at the end of the hunt, the French actually eat what they've hunted.

    (QUOTE=Eluard) Well Bonnie Prince Charlie was the would-be King of England/Scotland in the 18th Century. I assume you mean Prince Charles, the current one. I don't think that English royalty is being referenced so much as the Dukes and Baronets — but yes, Derby is a hat worn by the English more than the French, and English aristocrats at that. It goes with saville Row tailoring and John Steed of The Avengers.

    RUGGLES: My Bonnie Prince Charlie connection with Derby is this: the Catholic Prince Regent rode into the town of Derby, England in 1745 upon his horse while leading the insurgency of the Jacobites. He spent much of his life in France living in exile.
    The trio of Habit Rouge, Derby (think Epsom Downs and Kentucky, not the hat), Heritage and Coriolan reference France's equestrian tradition and are not about Anglo mania at all.
    They are also Guerlain's direct response to the increasing competition from the number of men's fragrances being produced by very horsey house of Hermes.
    Last edited by Kevin Guyer; 20th March 2007 at 09:04 PM. Reason: capriciousness!

  16. #46

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    Quote Originally Posted by hirch_duckfinder View Post
    Surely true aristocrats of any era would have been buying bespoke fragrance? Guerlain's clientelle (for production perfumes) would thus always have been aspirational bourgoise in their different incarnations through the ages? . . .
    Quoted directly from the official Guerlain website:
    Inspired by the beauty and elegance of the Empress Eugénie [wife of Napoleon III], Pierre François-Pascal Guerlain [founder of the house of Guerlain] created EAU DE COLOGNE IMPERIAL in her honour. Seduced by his refined EAU, the Empress conferred upon Guerlain the title of Her Majesty’s Official Perfumer, the very pinnacle of imperial ranking.
    Guerlain, I believe, also created fragrances for other European houses and even bespoke fragrances for some individual royal personages.

    Floris, the oldest English perfume house in existence (begun in 1730), was granted its first Royal Warrant in 1820, and since then has held no less than sixteen royal warrants from the British monarchy. Currently, it holds two royal warrants: as the official perfumer of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II and as the official supplier of toiletries to the Prince of Wales.

    Indeed, the very first customers of the purveyors of perfumed products were the aristocracy. Modern perfumery has it origins in scented gloves created for the aristocracy of Europe in the 1500s based on the need to give the leather a more agreeable smell but more increasingly as a means of staving off the bad smells rampant in European cities of the time. Gloves were usually worn or carried to be sniffed when one come into contact with noisome odors. Specifically, Catherine de Medici introduced the practice of wearing and also carrying scented gloves when she came to France in 1533 to marry the then Duke of Orleans, who was later to become Henry II of France. The practice of wearing and carrying scented gloves was adopted wholesale by the British aristocracy, with Queen Elizabeth I its greatest adherent.

    Grasse, for example, began as a center which tanned leather, and then turned into a center which concerned itself with the perfuming of leather gloves and even eventually become of the world’s great centers for the production and processing of quality natural perfume ingredients. Perfumers in the sixteenth and seventeenth century were almost always members of the glovers guilds. The current niche company Maître Parfumeur et Gantier (translated as Master Perfumer and Glover), in fact, carries on this dual tradition by producing both fragrances and gloves.


    Whatever its current trajectory, perfumery has always been and much of it--particularly historical French houses--continues to be intimately connected with the aristocracy, aristocratic traditions, and aristocratic values. I am sure there have always been middle class buyers of fragrances and in large numbers, but that's not the whole story.

    scentemental
    Last edited by scentemental; 21st March 2007 at 02:19 PM.

  17. #47

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    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    An older perfume house in Italy, probably the oldest in the world:

    Officina Profumi-Farmaceutica di Santa Maria Novella, no. 16, Via della Scala, FIRENZE - since 1612 (official) .

    According to less certain records, the story of this house seems to have been traced back to the 13th century. Books of accounts seem to still exist containing records of the year 1542. http://www.smnovella.it/

    The original Eau de Cologne factory of Farina was finished in 1709. http://www.farina-haus.de/
    Last edited by narcus; 21st March 2007 at 02:20 PM.
    'Il mondo dei profumi è un universo senza limiti: una fraganza puo rievocare sensazioni, luoghi, persone o ancora condurre in uno spazio di nuove dimensioni emozionali' L. V.

  18. #48

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?


    Correction to my above post duly noted and made. Thanks Narcus.

    scentemental


  19. #49

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    Quote Originally Posted by scentemental View Post
    Quoted directly from the official Guerlain website:
    Inspired by the beauty and elegance of the Empress Eugénie [wife of Napoleon III], Pierre François-Pascal Guerlain [founder of the house of Guerlain] created EAU DE COLOGNE IMPERIAL in her honour. Seduced by his refined EAU, the Empress conferred upon Guerlain the title of Her Majesty’s Official Perfumer, the very pinnacle of imperial ranking.
    Guerlain, I believe, also created fragrances for other European houses and even bespoke fragrances for some individual royal personages.

    Floris, the oldest English perfume house in existence (begun in 1730), was granted its first Royal Warrant in 1820, and since then has held no less than sixteen royal warrants from the British monarchy. Currently, it holds two royal warrants: as the official perfumer of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II and as the official supplier of toiletries to the Prince of Wales.

    Indeed, the very first customers of the purveyors of perfumed products were the aristocracy. Modern perfumery has it origins in scented gloves created for the aristocracy of Europe in the 1500s based on the need to give the leather a more agreeable smell but more increasingly as a means of staving off the bad smells rampant in European cities of the time. Gloves were usually worn or carried to be sniffed when one come into contact with noisome odors. Specifically, Catherine de Medici introduced the practice of wearing and also carrying scented gloves when she came to France in 1533 to marry the then Duke of Orleans, who was later to become Henry II of France. The practice of wearing and carrying scented gloves was adopted wholesale by the British aristocracy, with Queen Elizabeth I its greatest adherent.

    Grasse, for example, began as a center which tanned leather, and then turned into a center which concerned itself with the perfuming of leather gloves and even eventually become of the world’s great centers for the production and processing of quality natural perfume ingredients. Perfumers in the sixteenth and seventeenth century were almost always members of the glovers guilds. The current niche company Maître Parfumeur et Gantier (translated as Master Perfumer and Glover), in fact, carries on this dual tradition by producing both fragrances and gloves.


    Whatever its current trajectory, perfumery has always been and much of it--particularly historical French houses--continues to be intimately connected with the aristocracy, aristocratic traditions, and aristocratic values. I am sure there have always been middle class buyers of fragrances and in large numbers, but that's not the whole story.

    scentemental
    Scentemental, I believe you have endorsed my point. I wrote that (snip)... guerlain's clientelle for production perfumes...(snip). Guerlain made bespoke perfumes for aristocracy, then used the gravitas attained doing this to sell to middle class buyers who aspired to be like the true old-moneyed aristocrats whose families had been educated for centuries.

    Middle class buyers are certainly not the whole story, but I bet bet they have had a more significant impact on the accounts than the aristocracy.
    "Don’t try to be original. Be simple. Be good technically, and if there is something in you, it will come out. ” - Henri Matisse.

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  20. #50
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    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    Quote Originally Posted by narcus View Post
    An older perfume house in Italy, probably the oldest in the world:

    Officina Profumi-Farmaceutica di Santa Maria Novella, no. 16, Via della Scala, FIRENZE - since 1612 (official) .

    According to less certain records, the story of this house seems to have been traced back to the 13th century. Books of accounts seem to still exist containing records of the year 1542. http://www.smnovella.it/

    The original Eau de Cologne factory of Farina was finished in 1709. http://www.farina-haus.de/
    Didnt SMN start off as a pharmacy?

    Floris was initiated as a barbershop in 1730 but their first cologne was released in 1786.

    SMN was initiated as a pharmacy in the 15th century but their first cologne was released in 1828.

    Creed was initiated as a saddle maker (?) in 1760 but their first cologne was released in 1780.

    The oldest french perfume house proper might be Galimard, established in 1747 as a perfume house, but as narcus mentions, the oldest in the world might be Farina.
    -

  21. #51

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    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    Quote Originally Posted by zztopp View Post
    SMN was initiated as a pharmacy in the 15th century but their first cologne was released in 1828....
    In case you do not say this because Garofano is the oldest perfume listed in BN’s directory, where is this information from, zztopp? Everybody has heard of Catarina di Medici and her (in)famous perfumers she brought with her to France. In all likelihood SMN made one 'Eau de La Reine' for her which can possibly still be purchased. I see it nowhere listed. Here is more: http://historicalperfumes.chez-alice...TAMARIANOVELLA

    Back to Guerlain, and without reference to any post in particular - I read the whole five pages of this unusual discussion yesterday - I would like to add a few things that might be worth recalling: The 19th century has brought a lot of of changes to continental Europe and the world. Imperialism and Colonialism came to a peak, and oriental influence as well as advanced fragrance chemistry didn’t stop before the gates of Paris and Guerlain. Politically, it not only involved ambitious leaders, but challenged the entire population to fight internal (social) battles following the Bastille storm for more than a lifetime. There were several Kings (re-) installed and forced to flee again, ‘aristocratic’ ones and others. There was a young upshot, self made consul who imitated some of what he had despised in beheaded rulers - and created a new dynasty of his own!

    Yes, also perfume goes where the money is, but the French local market was not to be ignored. Substantial demand from abroad made the French perfume and fashion industries grow fast (Worth (!); E. Zola: Au Bonheur des Dames, 1883). Major demand came from Russia and North America, and also of course from Britain where some French nobility and politicians traditionally sought refuge, including the last French emperor, Napoleon III with his wife, Eugenie de Montijo, daughter of a Spanish fruit merchant.

    At the same time, most of the important liberty movements which shattered old orders in Europe have started from Paris. The capital had not become the manifestation of urban beauty only, and a model city for much of the world, it was the place to be for French intellectuals and artists, and many other nationalities as well. 1889 hasn’t been just another year for Paris as it celebrated the 100th anniversary of the revolution. France was a prosperous, liberal republic at last! This was also the year when the Tour Eiffel was completed - not just by coincidence. I see it as an almost religious commitment of the people to the goals of liberty and equality. The republic had demonstrated the same attitude once before when the French people donated the Statue of Liberty to the American people in 1886. More down to earth: the Moulin Rouge opens it’s doors in this year 1989, one year after the Olympia music hall, and three years after the Folies Bergère.

    A bit of all that is contained in the bouquet of
    Jicky!
    But you have to appreciate her as a daughter of her time, comparable to similarly old perfumes. Jicky breaks with all royal tributes Guerlain had paid to Napoleon III and his Lady before they sought exile in England (The BN directory 1863’c’ series, like Bouquet Napoleon, Bouquet de L’Imperatrice, Delice du Prince). I have read no document hinting to it, but as Jicky has been designed for women, it must have been for the modern, emancipated woman (womens lib began to gain shape at the time). Ironically throughout its own past, Jicky seems to have been less popular with women.

    I keep hearing that many men wore it from the beginning, but I have my doubts concerning the character of masculine preferences during the 19th century. Mouchoir de Monsieur , is almost a next generation scent. And there is indeed some affinity to Jicky. I take MdM as a hint on what men may generally have preferred around 1900. Some novel contained a passage whereby Jicky was popular among young lieutenants. This may have been the case in Austria before WW1, and I wonder if the young men wore it on home visits. Is it just me who believes to detect historical demi-monde in Jicky? This perfume seems to laugh aristocratic ambitions away, and I find the direct sensuality rather captivating. Whatever - a certain elegance can also not be denied.
    Last edited by narcus; 21st April 2007 at 09:58 AM.
    'Il mondo dei profumi è un universo senza limiti: una fraganza puo rievocare sensazioni, luoghi, persone o ancora condurre in uno spazio di nuove dimensioni emozionali' L. V.

  22. #52

    Wink Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    Quote Originally Posted by narcus View Post
    I keep hearing that many men wore it from the beginning, but I have my doubts concerning the character of masculine preferences during the 19th century. Mouchoir de Monsieur , is almost a next generation scent. And there is indeed some affinity to Jicky. I take MdM as a hint on what men may generally have preferred around 1900. Some novel contained a passage whereby Jicky was popular among young lieutenants. This may have been the case in Austria before WW1, and I wonder if the young men wore it on home visits. Is it just me who believes to detect historical demi-monde in Jicky? This perfume seems to laugh aristocratic ambitions away, and I find the direct sensuality rather captivating. Whatever - a certain elegance can also not be ignored.
    Perhaps the soldiers wore Jicky as a simulation of that after sex smell. Sort of like not washing one's fingers after a night of passion, so one can savor the memory until it fades away. A most brilliant post Narcus!

  23. #53
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    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    Quote Originally Posted by narcus View Post
    An older perfume house in Italy, probably the oldest in the world:

    Officina Profumi-Farmaceutica di Santa Maria Novella, no. 16, Via della Scala, FIRENZE - since 1612 (official) .

    According to less certain records, the story of this house seems to have been traced back to the 13th century. Books of accounts seem to still exist containing records of the year 1542. http://www.smnovella.it/
    C.J.S. Thompson writes 'The [Venetian] fashion soon spread south to Florence, for as early as 1508 a laboratory for the manufacture of perfumes was founded in the monastery of Santa Maria Novella in that city', (The Mystery and Lure of Perfume, Bodley Head, 1927).
    Last edited by michaeld39; 22nd March 2007 at 04:28 PM. Reason: bad spellin!
    .
    .
    "The grand essentials of happiness are: something to do, something to love, and something to hope for", Allan Chalmers.

  24. #54

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    Quote Originally Posted by hirch_duckfinder View Post
    I think that Heritage was (and still is) a statement of learned quality over zeitgeist, for me this makes it the polar opposite of the post modern, post stucturalist, post anything else myth. It is constructed on solid and well tried foundations. It sticks out like a bastion of concrete rational constructivism among the feather-weight self-agrandisers who justify deconstruction with semantic trickery.

    As far as I know, Guerlain has never made an aquatic fragrance.
    With the recently deceased Arthur Schlesinger Jr. one might say that Héritage embodies a fragrant vital center, avoiding the flights of fancy of postmodern Zeitgeist as well as the aristocratic daring of breaking the rules you know too well.

    I agree that Guerlain presents itself as a stalwart of continuity, of héritage, even if economically, they are now part of LVMH's late (late late etc.) capitalism. PoMo is something for niches to do, or avant-garde fashion houses, and I believe Comme des Garcons is (or was) the quintessential postmodern fragrance brand, deconstructing the very idea of perfume with the likes of Odeur 53, but (more subtly) really in all their products.

    But what then is the héritage Guerlain embodies? Purely in metaphorical, rather than historical or sociological terms, Héritage seems to smooth and perfect for me to be considered aristocratic. The aristocrat affords himself jouissance, he is, in Tocqueville's words, a true individual who will stand by himself, while the democratic bourgeois is a conformist. In terms of fragrance the nobleman can be risqué, he can play with stink, for his status is beyond question, that means civet, heavy leather, edgy musk. MKK is in this sense an aristocratic fragrance. On the other hand you have the bourgeois "deviants" rebelling against the order that produced them, or toying with rebellion at least, by wearing Jicky (1890s) or Patchouli (1960s) or Odeur 53 (1990s). Héritage on the other hand is the smooth, quality conscious perfection of the haute bourgeoisie at a point where it has not been infected with the decadence of a long entrenched ruling elite, brims with self-confidence, confidently looks down upon the dregs of the earth, whom it shall reform at pleasure...a nice memory to be wearing in a time when cultural leadership emanates from...Paris Hilton. Of course we all know that this bourgeois self-image is only half the story (cf. Luis Bunuel, or Marcus' The other Victorians). But it makes for a great perfume.
    My Wardrobe
    II est de forts parfums pour qui toute matière/Est poreuse. On dirait qu'ils pénètrent le verre.

  25. #55

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    ***
    Last edited by scentemental; 22nd March 2007 at 09:22 PM.

  26. #56
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    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    I believe the essential paradigm of Guerlain is creating partially situated identities out of actual or potential social reality in terms of canonical forms of human contact, thus renormalizing the phenomenology of narrative space and requiring the naturalization of the intersubjective cognitive strategy, and thereby resolving the dialectics of metaphorical thoughts, each problematic to the other, collectively redefining and reifying the paradigm of the parable of the model of the metaphor.

  27. #57

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    Quote Originally Posted by fredricktoo View Post
    I believe the essential paradigm of Guerlain is creating partially situated identities out of actual or potential social reality in terms of canonical forms of human contact, thus renormalizing the phenomenology of narrative space and requiring the naturalization of the intersubjective cognitive strategy, and thereby resolving the dialectics of metaphorical thoughts, each problematic to the other, collectively redefining and reifying the paradigm of the parable of the model of the metaphor.
    Couldn't have put it better myself.

    Say goodnight Gracie.

  28. #58
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    Cool Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    Yeah...what Fredricktoo said.
    These things cannot be long hidden: the Sun, the Moon, the Truth--Buddha
    Currently wearing: Yatagan by Caron

  29. #59

    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    I am left with a bad feeling from this.
    "Don’t try to be original. Be simple. Be good technically, and if there is something in you, it will come out. ” - Henri Matisse.

    "Wear R de Capucci" - Hirch Duckfinder

    reviews

  30. #60
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    Default Re: Is Heritage the great grandchild of Jicky and Mouchier de Monsieur?

    good night gracie

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