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  1. #1

    Default Decant Sales or Swaps no longer permitted on BN

    From Sunday 15th April 2007, Members will no longer be able to list decants in their items for swap or sale. Only manufacturer's standard bottles will be permitted.

    After this date, any post selling/trading decants will be deleted in their entirety.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Decant Sales or Swaps no longer permitted on BN

    Does this apply to discontinued fragrances as well?
    My Wardrobe
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  3. #3

    Default Re: Decant Sales or Swaps no longer permitted on BN

    Grant I think you are being very discourteous in the way you have announced this.

    Some explanation please?
    Last edited by hirch_duckfinder; 12th April 2007 at 10:51 AM.
    "Don’t try to be original. Be simple. Be good technically, and if there is something in you, it will come out. ” - Henri Matisse.

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  4. #4
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    Unhappy Re: Decant Sales or Swaps no longer permitted on BN

    Advertiser pressure to remove lower priced alternatives to full bottle sales? This seems a bit strange without any explaination as to the logic behind the decision.
    Last edited by kbe; 12th April 2007 at 11:43 AM.
    'Those who grow too big for their pants will be exposed in the end'--anon

  5. #5

    Default Re: Decant Sales or Swaps no longer permitted on BN

    Grant, I know your job is tough and that you have to make some difficult decisions, but this sort of blunt command is a little surprising, uncharacteristic, and (as Hirch noted) discourteous to the many members who pay the subscription fees and also list decants. For the majority of decanters, the purpose is simply to try new things and to spread around some of our favorites to our Bnotes friends, not to make a quick buck (in fact, I can think of only a few members that charge enough for their decants to actually make anything off of them).

    At the end of the day, it's your forum and you can do what you like, but I DO think that members are entitled to know the reasoning for such a sudden command.

    EDIT: Just read the "ebay discontinuing decants" thread and so I guess I understand the reasoning, though I'd like to hear it explained by Grant, too. My biggest concern with this is that often the decant buyers/sellers/traders were those with the largest collections and some of the most experience/knowledge on the forum. Taking away decants will thus perhaps push them away and things will become even more of a "Frangrance 101 for Newbies" with little incentive for older members to stay around who want to dive a little deeper and go beyond the same five threads repeated ad nauseum. I'm afraid that they will continue moving elsewhere.
    Last edited by rach2jlc; 12th April 2007 at 12:28 PM.
    Is there any point in saying everything? -Basho

  6. #6

    Default Re: Decant Sales or Swaps no longer permitted on BN

    My apologies for the bluntness of my initial announcement. I was due out, and wanted to post something earlier rather than later to give everybody more time to finalise their business. I realise it was (as has been noted) an uncharacteristicly short and formal post, and my note below would have been what was posted if I had had more time earlier.

    We've had a swap/sell board on Basenotes for almost seven years. The idea was so that the 20 members we had could swap the unwanted bottle of Curve they had just got for a bottle of XS.

    As the site grew, so did the popularity of the Marketplace. People were swapping home-made decants with other members to try new things. As more and more people joined, the greater range of fragrances were available to sample.

    A few years ago - one member, and I cant remember who, started decanting his fragrances specifically to sell. There was some discussion of this at the time in the Moderation board as we didnt think it seemed entirely okay. But it seemed a reasonable way to try a fragrance for a minimal cost. The website was pretty small in those days too.

    One thing that did concern me was the fact that a member could say that they were selling an Etro decant when really it was Old Spice. The recipient wouldn't know as they are obviously buying it to sample it, and probably wouldn't have a frame of reference.

    About a year ago, I started getting word of various companies contacting eBay and asking them to pull various decant sales. I can see the point of the companies involved - this isn't just about making money - it is the fact that they have no control over a product being sold with their name on it. These products could be diluted or could be another fragrance, which could damage their reputation.

    So why have I decided to no longer allow decants for sale/swap on BN? It is purely a pre-emptive move based on the fact that fragrance houses are clamping down on decant sales and eBay's likely decision. Ebay have legal teams and pots of cash, so if they have decided it can no longer happen then there is no doubt a very good legal basis for it.

    Without a legal team and just enough cash to afford Tesco Value tea bags, I'm not in a position to be able to "ride it out and see how it goes.". Basenotes is no longer a small site. We are on the radar of most of the big perfume houses - if they are going after eBay, its not unthinkable that they have a list which we may be on.

    Getting a decant is a great way to try a fragrance you are considering buying. Members are still able to list fragrances they are willing to share with others in their wardrobes.

    In response to some of the other issues that have come up. The Supporting membership isn't a "fee to list decants". You can also use the Marketplace if you have been a member for a year or have 500 posts. Which most older members would have anyway.

    I hope this helps explain the reasoning behind the decision.
    Last edited by Grant; 12th April 2007 at 02:11 PM.

  7. #7

    Thumbs down Re: Decant Sales or Swaps no longer permitted on BN

    I am really saddened by this news! One of my favorite Ebay decant sellers emailed me yesterday stating that they would no longer be selling on Ebay due to their new rules and my initial reaction was "This STINKS!! At least I still have Basenotes!!"

    Now the situation is back to just plain stinking

  8. #8

    Default Re: Decant Sales or Swaps no longer permitted on BN

    DISCLAIMER: I do not swap, nor do I buy or sell decants, ever, but I have been following this latest news about Ebay and BN on several sites.

    And I can't help thinking that if *I* were a decant seller, I would do the following: List only full bottles as directed by various sites new rules, then when contacted by potential buyers by email, let them know that I sell decants. Hell, I'd even put it in my email signature.

    What I'm saying is that while I understand why Cartier, for example, would not want decants they have no control over to be sold (as Grant said, who's to stop a bad seller from diluting or altering the juice?) this will not stop the sale of decants, it will just drive them underground.
    People will list their full bottles on Ebay and/or BN, then conduct their decant sales off site.
    I do not foresee that this latest move will curtail the making, selling or buying of decants in anyway.

    I could be wrong, of course.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Decant Sales or Swaps no longer permitted on BN

    Quote Originally Posted by sinij chas View Post
    I do not foresee that this latest move will curtail the making, selling or buying of decants in anyway.

    I could be wrong, of course.
    I certainly hope you aren't!

    If an underground "decant speakeasy" is created - I sure hope I find it and know the secret knock to get in the door..

  10. #10

    Default Re: Decant Sales or Swaps no longer permitted on BN

    "decant speakeasy"
    All you need to start any movement is a name and word of mouth to start traveling...

  11. #11

    Default Effect on sample sales?

    (This may have been addressed elsewhere; if so, please point me toward the thread.)

    I rely heavily on samples for deciding on purchases--I just won't do the blind buy thing--and Denmark is lousy with regard to fragrance selection, so there are serious limits as to what I can test in shops.

    Is it likely that the decision under discussion here will eventually affect the sale of samples from companies like LuckyScents? I just looked at their website, and everything seems as it was with regard to samples; I'm also thinking that they may have an arrangement with the manufacturers to buy larger bottles that are intended just for this purpose.

    Has anyone heard anything regarding this?

  12. #12

    Default Re: Decant Sales or Swaps no longer permitted on BN

    Thanks for the thorough explanation, Grant. I'm still sorry to see decants go and am afraid it will hurt Bnotes in the long run (perhaps not as much as lawsuit, but anyway!), but now that you've explained it, I feel a lot better. I just was a little broadsided initially by the blunt announcement, but of course we didn't know the whole story.

    Best of luck and thanks again,
    Is there any point in saying everything? -Basho

  13. #13

    Default Re: Decant Sales or Swaps no longer permitted on BN

    Quote Originally Posted by sinij chas View Post
    What I'm saying is that while I understand why Cartier, for example, would not want decants they have no control over to be sold (as Grant said, who's to stop a bad seller from diluting or altering the juice?) this will not stop the sale of decants, it will just drive them underground.
    Wow, this was a real surprise to me. At first I thought it was another April Fool's joke that I missed. And I love decants - I'm sitting amongst 7 of them right here.

    But then I read the fine print of Grant's explanation (thanks, Grant), and it started to make some sense. He is a "legal target", and we are not. And he does say that it's still OK to list sharable items in our wardrobes. I think this is a reasonable compromise, all things considered.

    As Sinji points out, this will drive decant sales underground. And this might not be that bad. (It sucks for Ebay sellers, of course). Obviously the fragrance companies can't prevent you and I from having a secret conversation and deciding to make our own decant or swap deal, and they know that. But they want to prevent large public areas that appear to promote decanting, and certainly Ebay fits that.

    Philosophically I'm against the fragrance companies doing this - in my mind, it's interference in free trade. And the case against swaps is even weaker. Ironically, I think this will reduce frag companies sales further(!) - it could eliminate the customer who likes a decant and decides to buy a full bottle. But despite my objections, practically speaking, I don't have a legal department to fight for my opinion.

    So where to go from here? I guess we'll just quietly notify each other. Or maybe "decant sigs" are OK, Grant could elaborate on that. Another idea that occurs would be to have a place for "members only", so to speak, who could make deals. But the question becomes, is that discrete enough for the frag companies, and would they send a mole in there? Maybe by invitation only or something. Just speculating.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Decant Sales or Swaps no longer permitted on BN

    Is it likely that the decision under discussion here will eventually affect the sale of samples from companies like LuckyScents?,
    It may be different in these cases as LuskyScent (et al) are authorised distributors of the items they sell. This is just a guess on my part and could be completely wrong

  15. #15

    Default Re: Decant Sales or Swaps no longer permitted on BN

    I am more than a little disappointed by this move at his time but respect that it is completely Grant's call.

    I do not agree with the assumption that "EBay have legal teams and pots of cash, so if they have decided it can no longer happen then there is no doubt a very good legal basis for it." Indeed they probably have scads of money and lawyers but fragrance sales are such a relatively small part of eBay, and decant sales an even smaller part, I would guess that eBay didn't even bother have their legal team research the issue - it was cheaper, time-wise, nuisance-wise and cash-wise for them to cave. Anyway, we don't know... at least I don't know. We also don't know which companies pressured eBay. But most importantly, we don't know how it may have played out legally. Obviously, this site doesn't have the resources to test the issue in court but I haven't heard that there has been any pressuring from any company to make Basenotes change anything.

    I do have a vague recollection of a news article some time back about an eBay seller receiving a threatening letter from a fragrance company that demanded she stop selling their products on eBay. The small series of letters was written up by the law firm the fragrance company had on retainer. The seller simply called their bluff because she knew of no valid legal basis for their demand, and the company ended up simply leaving her alone.

    If Basenotes had taken a route similar to the brave little eBay fragrance seller's, we would have better information. We'd know which companies were behind it and Grant could have requested them to explain what they perceived their legal basis to be before making a decision one way or another about changing an important aspect of this site. When I first heard about eBay's decision, I envisioned this site's paying membership ranks increasing significantly because decant buyers and sellers would want another venue for their habit. Then, if the issue of Decanters V Big Perfume Companies got a little press, hits on this site would have skyrocketed.

    Just my two cents.
    Last edited by socalwoman; 14th April 2007 at 05:04 AM. Reason: I put a space between the paragraphs

  16. #16

    Default Re: Decant Sales or Swaps no longer permitted on BN

    Grant,

    As a business person and as a member that loves basenotes and has high regards for you, please let me give my opinion on this.

    If you have not been contacted by anyone regarding pulling the sales of decants, delay your decision on this. I strongly agree with Socalwoman, this will bring more people here and increase the membership, I am sure of this. I am saying this for a business point of view

    When you do get contacted by anyone , then make a decision on this. All they can do is warn you to stop this, they won't take any legal action because you have not been told to stop it.

    Please please reconsider this.
    Vijay"Maisonstinky"

  17. #17

    Default Re: Decant Sales or Swaps no longer permitted on BN

    One of the companies that I'm pretty sure complained on ebay is Bond No 9. I've never bought any of their fragrances as they are not worth the inflated prices.
    Oriscent, AgarAura Pure Ouds, Creed, LIDGE, Patou Pour Homme, tons of niche and rare stuff for sale!
    http://www.basenotes.net/threads/253...er-100-items!!

  18. #18

    Default Re: Decant Sales or Swaps no longer permitted on BN

    Quote Originally Posted by maisonstinky View Post
    Grant,

    As a business person and as a member that loves basenotes and has high regards for you, please let me give my opinion on this.

    If you have not been contacted by anyone regarding pulling the sales of decants, delay your decision on this. I strongly agree with Socalwoman, this will bring more people here and increase the membership, I am sure of this. I am saying this for a business point of view

    When you do get contacted by anyone , then make a decision on this. All they can do is warn you to stop this, they won't take any legal action because you have not been told to stop it.

    Please please reconsider this.
    Vijay makes a good point here.
    "Don’t try to be original. Be simple. Be good technically, and if there is something in you, it will come out. ” - Henri Matisse.

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  19. #19

    Default Re: Decant Sales or Swaps no longer permitted on BN

    Quote Originally Posted by maisonstinky View Post
    Grant,

    As a business person and as a member that loves basenotes and has high regards for you, please let me give my opinion on this.

    If you have not been contacted by anyone regarding pulling the sales of decants, delay your decision on this. I strongly agree with Socalwoman, this will bring more people here and increase the membership, I am sure of this. I am saying this for a business point of view

    When you do get contacted by anyone , then make a decision on this. All they can do is warn you to stop this, they won't take any legal action because you have not been told to stop it.

    Please please reconsider this.
    My line of thinking exactly, Vijay. What harm would it do to wait and see if anyone contacts you before making such a rash decision? No one is going to outright sue you without first warning you to cease & desist. It is entirely possible that no such contact will ever be made and Basenotes could stand to gain signifigantly in the way of substantially increased supporting memberships.

    Just a thought. I would really hate to go down without a fight(so to speak.) I respect your decision either way....it is your site after all.
    Last edited by GraySwan; 12th April 2007 at 04:40 PM.

  20. #20

    Unhappy Re: Decant Sales or Swaps no longer permitted on BN

    WOW! I just happened to stumble across this thread, as I hardly ever read the announcements. I just usually go to the marketplace looking for decants of things I haven't tried.

    While I tend to agree with pre- emptive thinking, Vijay does have a point also. But, what is really striking me here is the greed of the un-named companies. I mean , it's not enough for them to make you jump through hoops just to carry their product, now they are dictating what you can do with it after you have purchased it. Does this mean they will be more FREE with their samples, I doubt it. Grant, I trust what you are doing is what's best for this site. There are ways around this, depending on how really private our private messages are. I view what's happening at the corporate level as greed cloaked in law suit paranoia............trickle down........trickle down.

  21. #21

    Default Re: Decant Sales or Swaps no longer permitted on BN

    Might I humbly suggest that decanters start a yahoogroups list and post their wares there?

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Decant Sales or Swaps no longer permitted on BN

    I can't imagine that swapping decants can be considered a possible violation of any law as no sale would be transacted. Regarding selling decants- I can imagine someone trying to get around the protocol saying that they will offer a decant for free if one pays the $25.00 shipping charge, similar to what people do when they run $.01 auctions on Ebay. BTW- Ebay runs the actual auction sale and profits from it, Basenotes does not. Although I will certainly support Grant's decision 100%, I believe that no legalities would be violated here.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Decant Sales or Swaps no longer permitted on BN

    Quote Originally Posted by Nutmeg View Post
    Might I humbly suggest that decanters start a yahoogroups list and post their wares there?

    Good idea, Nutmeg. I predict that once we all recover from being shell-shocked by this news, we will begin to mobilize and find some creative ways around these limitations. A Yahoo Group is one great alternative.
    Last edited by GraySwan; 12th April 2007 at 05:31 PM.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Decant Sales or Swaps no longer permitted on BN

    Quote Originally Posted by Basenotes Admin View Post
    Members are still able to list fragrances they are willing to share with others in their wardrobes.
    So what is the big deal again? Unless I'm missing something here, this just adds one more step in the purchasing/trading process. People can still list their items; they just can't specify whether it is a decant or a bottle.

    Private messages, everyone! Interested buyers will just have to contact the seller and specify that it is a decant they're after, and not a bottle.

    The Yahoo groups idea is wonderful as well.

    I almost feel guilty posting this...like i'm disrespecting Grant and undermining his decision here. That is not my intention. I do agree that it is risky for Basenotes to be flaunting its decant sales. Who's to say a company is going to warn us first if they do get wind of our activities? There is no legal reason for them not to take us straight to trial. I would never want that for Grant, and it would probably be the end of Basenotes.

    But in the end, we can't be expected to just stop. It seems to me that this is less a matter of what we do and more a matter of what fragrance companies can see us doing.

    So Grant, would it still be too risky for us to conduct our sales in the way I outlined above (with PMs), or would you prefer us to take it off the site?

    EDIT: Just to clarify the meaning of your "willing to share" comment above...does that mean that if we say we are "willing to share" something in our selling list, the tacit meaning could be that it's a decant? Or did you mean that in a more general sense, where it could mean either a bottle or a decant, and it's up to the individuals to specify?
    Last edited by LiveJazz; 12th April 2007 at 06:15 PM.
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  25. #25

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    Default Re: Decant Sales or Swaps no longer permitted on BN

    SocalWoman
    I could just hug you ~
    I couldn't have said it better myself!!!!

    Thank you!!!!

  26. #26

    Default Re: Decant Sales or Swaps no longer permitted on BN

    Nutmeg (and others),

    More than likely a Yahoo group will be the easiest solution and probably what will happen.

    But, again, it's Grant's decision to make and he is the one with everything at stake. It's easy for us members who have no legality involved to say what should be done; but nevertheless we do have some concern over what it may do to the site as a whole. I still think that, if this goes as stated, it will be just a matter of time until a lot of the older members move on elsewhere where they can swap/sell/discuss/etc.
    Last edited by rach2jlc; 12th April 2007 at 06:34 PM.
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  27. #27

    Default Re: Decant Sales or Swaps no longer permitted on BN

    I agree with Vijay and Socalwoman as well. yes, I sell decants, but I'd absolutely love to make those companies kicking up a stink have to come out publicly with who they are. At that point, people can just stop swapping/selling those brands... and buying them. Wallets talk, and my guess is they have no intention of going public other than harassing ebay.
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  28. #28

    Default Re: Decant Sales or Swaps no longer permitted on BN

    Quote Originally Posted by Basenotes Admin View Post
    Getting a decant is a great way to try a fragrance you are considering buying. Members are still able to list fragrances they are willing to share with others in their wardrobes.

    I understand your concern about selling decants via the marketplace forum on Basenotes but particularly since you will still allow people to list a fragrance as shareable do you really need to prohibit listing decants on the swap forum? There seems to be an inconstancy as to how you treat decants in different parts of the web site.
    In all matters of opinion, our adversaries are insane - Oscar Wilde

  29. #29

    Default Re: Decant Sales or Swaps no longer permitted on BN

    So why have I decided to no longer allow decants for sale/swap on BN? It is purely a pre-emptive move based on the fact that fragrance houses are clamping down on decant sales and eBay's likely decision. Ebay have legal teams and pots of cash, so if they have decided it can no longer happen then there is no doubt a very good legal basis for it.
    Admittedly I am not a lawyer but I cannot think of any legal basis for this (in the U.S.). I would guess that Ebay just doesn't care.

    If a a fragrance manufacturer does not like me selling decants of their products they have they right to refuse to sell to me but that is the extent of it.
    All these moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain.

  30. #30

    Default Re: Decant Sales or Swaps no longer permitted on BN

    I completely agree with what oolong posted before me.
    Another question comes to my mind: if swapping decants is no longer permitted, what about RAOKS? Will we be no longer allowed to post things like "if you want to try this fragrance, PM me and I will send a sample/decant to you"? I have a feeling all this could well harm Grant and Basenotes, but what enrages me is that it means implicitly that they (whoever "they" are) are trying to restrict our freedom as private citizens to do what we wish with a scent we already paid for in full. And I still don't think we would be infringing any rights. However, since Basenotes is based in the UK, it should be that legal system regulating the site. I think there is at least one UK lawyer among us (michael?), and it would be nice to hear his opinion.
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  31. #31
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    Default Re: Decant Sales or Swaps no longer permitted on BN

    Doesn't the anonymity of our party basher drive you guys crazy? If we could find out which companies put the squeeze on ebay, we could at least vent our hostilities against them.

    I'd write a letter of argument, if I only knew to whom to send it. I'd boycott the company(ies) who have fouled both our innocent fun and our stimulation of the fragrance marketplace as a whole. We should at least be able to get all of this information out in the open. I could believe it was Bond No. 9 and just a couple others who injured this previously joyous marketplace (I think it was Bond that began clubbing ebayer seller Lisa Law like she was a baby seal). If I knew for sure, I could erase any of my glowing reviews related to the offending companies at makeupalley and cease any further business with that company.

    Don't I remember something about one of the men who was an early member of Basenotes also being some kingpin at ebay? Could he give us any help in shining a light on the backroom dealings that have resulted in this huge ban?

    We may not be able to turn the tide, but I'd at least like to express my sentiments to the fragrance companies who burst our balloon and be given an informed choice as to which companies I will do business in the future.
    Last edited by Quarry; 12th April 2007 at 07:46 PM.
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  32. #32
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    Default Re: Decant Sales or Swaps no longer permitted on BN

    Quarry- you are referring to Griff.

  33. #33
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    Default Re: Decant Sales or Swaps no longer permitted on BN

    Quote Originally Posted by stuigi View Post
    Quarry- you are referring to Griff.
    Thanks, Stuigi. I've sent a PM to Griff. I'm suddenly feeling very investigative reportly.
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  34. #34
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    Default Re: Decant Sales or Swaps no longer permitted on BN

    [QUOTE=Basenotes Admin;1009809]

    One thing that did concern me was the fact that a member could say that they were selling an Etro decant when really it was Old Spice. The recipient wouldn't know as they are obviously buying it to sample it, and probably wouldn't have a frame of reference.

    About a year ago, I started getting word of various companies contacting eBay and asking them to pull various decant sales. I can see the point of the companies involved - this isn't just about making money - it is the fact that they have no control over a product being sold with their name on it. These products could be diluted or could be another fragrance, which could damage their reputation.

    So why have I decided to no longer allow decants for sale/swap on BN? It is purely a pre-emptive move based on the fact that fragrance houses are clamping down on decant sales and eBay's likely decision. Ebay have legal teams and pots of cash, so if they have decided it can no longer happen then there is no doubt a very good legal basis for it.

    Without a legal team and just enough cash to afford Tesco Value tea bags, I'm not in a position to be able to "ride it out and see how it goes.". Basenotes is no longer a small site. We are on the radar of most of the big perfume houses - if they are going after eBay, its not unthinkable that they have a list which we may be on.

    Getting a decant is a great way to try a fragrance you are considering buying. Members are still able to list fragrances they are willing to share with others in their wardrobes.

    QUOTE/l]
    I understand Grant's decision and the reasons he gave for it, and, like most Basenoters, am able to 'read between the lines'

    However, I would also venture to say that the overwhelming majority of dollars made by eBay from scent sales is from fees etc. from ('of course TOTALLY unknown to eBay as such') Perfumes, Edts, Colognes sold on eBay are from bottle sales. And I personally think a much greater majority of those scents sold by unscrupulous sellers are counterfeit/altered and unsophisticated/1st time buyers do not know the difference. I see no large attempt to quell those sales even when brought to eBay's attention, and I speak from personal experience. And from what I see being sold on eBay, other than lip service against it and an occasional closing down of a seller of such from eBay, it continues. They seem to me all bluster and BS about such things. There are many eBay sellers, IMO, selling all kinds of items that are unannounced knockoffs and counterfeits in most areas of eBay. Check the eBay selling prices vs the prices of the originals even in discount sale stores, either online or brick and mortar. IMO you would have to have stolen the items to sell legitimate items that inexpensively and make still make a profit.

    So, I take the position that in this decision eBay is 1. Either being paid sufficiently from outside sources to make up for lost sales in decants or 2). Making a 'token strike' for PR against counterfeit sales, picking the area where they make the least money from, decant sales, since bottle sales listing fees and sales income fees would seem to me to be much more than that coming in from decant sales.

    But that is only my opinion, and I could be wrong.
    'Those who grow too big for their pants will be exposed in the end'--anon

  35. #35

    Exclamation Re: Decant Sales or Swaps no longer permitted on BN

    Quote Originally Posted by maisonstinky View Post
    Grant,

    As a business person and as a member that loves basenotes and has high regards for you, please let me give my opinion on this.

    If you have not been contacted by anyone regarding pulling the sales of decants, delay your decision on this. I strongly agree with Socalwoman, this will bring more people here and increase the membership, I am sure of this. I am saying this for a business point of view

    When you do get contacted by anyone , then make a decision on this. All they can do is warn you to stop this, they won't take any legal action because you have not been told to stop it.

    Please please reconsider this.
    I was just about to post almost exactly what Vijay wrote. Grant, as you've written, the fragrance companies know about Basenotes. If they wanted us to stop decanting, they'd tell us. The worst thing you would expect initially is a "cease and desist" notice, which would give you time to respond. As long as you're willing to comply with such a request you won't need lawyers. For the fragrance companies to launch legal proceedings out of the blue without an effort to resolve the issue directly would be a stupid move for numerous reasons; it's something you don't need to fear.

    (Furthermore, Basenotes benefits the fragrance companies in a way eBay doesn't, and clearly they know that.)

    EDIT: I see GraySwan has pre-empted some of my observations as well:

    Quote Originally Posted by GraySwan View Post
    My line of thinking exactly, Vijay. What harm would it do to wait and see if anyone contacts you before making such a rash decision? No one is going to outright sue you without first warning you to cease & desist. It is entirely possible that no such contact will ever be made and Basenotes could stand to gain signifigantly in the way of substantially increased supporting memberships.
    Last edited by d4; 12th April 2007 at 09:19 PM.

  36. #36

    Default Re: Decant Sales or Swaps no longer permitted on BN

    Just a quick note to emphasize that BN is not being pressured by anyone into doing this, however I can completely understand why fragrance companies do not want their products being repackaged and distributed by unauthorised sellers. These are trademark and copyright issues that are causing the problems - nothing to do with the right to resell an item.

    Companies are very protective over their trademarks - they have to be - there is the potential to lose it. Many everyday items were once trademarks that belong(ed) to a company: Allen key, Asprin, Brassiere, Linoleum, Petrol.

    Companies aren't going to stand by and allow the unauthorised re-selling of their fragrances in different packaging, using their trademarks. Aside from trademark and copyright issues, you also have labelling laws covering which ingredients are in cosmetic products, which obviously wouldnt be on a decant.

    Its a question of when, rather than if.

    As I've said previously, members are still able to use the fragrance wardrobes to let other members know what they have. The wardrobe system will also be upgraded soon to make it easier to use and more functional.

  37. #37

    Default Re: Decant Sales or Swaps no longer permitted on BN

    Quote Originally Posted by Basenotes Admin View Post
    .................................................. ...................
    As I've said previously, members are still able to use the fragrance wardrobes to let other members know what they have. The wardrobe system will also be upgraded soon to make it easier to use and more functional.
    Glad to hear the wardrobe system is going to updated soon! Does this mean that any changes we make to our wardrobe will be seen more immediately by members searching the directory? I make frequent additions/revisions to my swap/ wish/decant lists and I've noticed that it can take weeks before these changes show up when a directory search is made for a specific fragrance. For example: I place fragrance x on my decant list but when I search the directory for fragrance x, I am not shown as being one of the members having it on my decant list(even though it has been there for a few weeks.) It would be great if these changes were more immediately updated in the directory, especially since many of us will now be relying much more heavily on our wardrobes as a result of these recent developments.

    Just my 2 cents. Thanks for keeping us informed, Grant
    Last edited by GraySwan; 12th April 2007 at 11:37 PM.

  38. #38

    Default Re: Decant Sales or Swaps no longer permitted on BN

    Will we still have the "decantable" feature in our wardrobe?
    Oriscent, AgarAura Pure Ouds, Creed, LIDGE, Patou Pour Homme, tons of niche and rare stuff for sale!
    http://www.basenotes.net/threads/253...er-100-items!!

  39. #39

    Default Re: Decant Sales or Swaps no longer permitted on BN

    Companies aren't going to stand by and allow the unauthorised re-selling of their fragrances in different packaging, using their trademarks.
    Where is the legal issue? Selling a vial with a label that says it contains Chanel #5 is not infringing on any trademark.
    All these moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain.

  40. #40

    Default Re: Decant Sales or Swaps no longer permitted on BN

    Quote Originally Posted by Lady_in_Black View Post
    but what enrages me is that it means implicitly that they (whoever "they" are) are trying to restrict our freedom as private citizens to do what we wish with a scent we already paid for in full. And I still don't think we would be infringing any rights. However, since Basenotes is based in the UK, it should be that legal system regulating the site. I think there is at least one UK lawyer among us (michael?), and it would be nice to hear his opinion.

    It is late and I'm tired and now I am also furious.

    I do not have the pleasure of being an intellectual property lawyer. I will ask a colleague for some informal advice but I suspect that there will just enough room for doubt as to the interpretation of the law, that scumbags in boardrooms feel able to harass consumers who do not act in accordance with the ridiculous pretensions of their 'brand vision'.

    The general picture of the law that I've picked up over the years of teaching other subjects is
    - UK IP law is derived from EC law. This is very similar to US IP law.
    - There is a doctrine of exhaustion. Once the trademark owner sells their product to a consumer, their right to control the use of the product is exhausted. This clearly applies to reselling of bottles.
    - Re-packaging the goods may mean that the trademark owners rights are not exhausted. The owner will need to show that the re-packaging tarnishes the trademark in some way. Any sensible interpretation of this would say that selling a decant of a perfume, clearly and accurately described, would not tarnish the trademark.
    - I vaguely recall reading that some US courts have been persuaded to give the concept of 'tarnishing' a pretty broad reading.

    That's as much as I can say off the top of my head, sorry.
    .
    .
    "The grand essentials of happiness are: something to do, something to love, and something to hope for", Allan Chalmers.

  41. #41

    Default Re: Decant Sales or Swaps no longer permitted on BN

    This is too bad. I made some of my favorite discoveries through decants here on BN. On the other hand, how hard do you think it would be to say "OK everyone, our yahoo group, only with private member access is where we do our business now."? Even another point I think: It's quite easy to take the atomizer off of a bottle, pour out the juice, put another juice in, and sell is as Gucci. Why don't they just ban all sales of purchased fragrances? That would seem more logical since fraud can happen with used bottles, and still tarnish the house's name.
    FOR EXAMPLE:
    I've noticed that LezNez sales are going through the roof, so I buy four bottles of L'Antimatière. I pour those bottles out into my own large bottle, fill the old bottles with alcohol, and proceed to sell these bottles as NIB on eBay. It's niche, so the people buying it will say it's art, so hard to understand. I just got 200ml of a niche fragrance for probably a two dollar profit. (If I sell at $5 less than MSRP, but I charge 8.50 for shipping, I make $3.50 on that bottle. Since I had them all shipped in the same package, I only got charged $6 total for shipping, or $1.50 per bottle. I make $2 per bottle, the consumer saves money, because they don't have to pay $6 extra for shipping, just $3.50 after my shipping charges recoup my discount on the bottle). Since L'Antimatière just smells like alcohol to me, this isn't inconceiveable. 200ml of alcohol is cheap cheap cheap at walmart, and the average consumer will not know the difference. It seems to me like they are going to start putting even more restrictions on sale of perfumes, and this is only the tip of the proverbial iceberg. Give an inch people...
    This kind of reflects what is happening in the US right now. We are slowly releasing our rights one by one because we assume that the government has the right to take away one or two once in a while. Well, if we lose one right every year from the Bill of Rights, in 10 years, those are all gone. It's easier to ease citizens into this idea, instead of yanking them away all at once.
    I'm done. Perhaps I'll look into the Yahoo! group already.
    - Rich

    PS -
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BN_Underground/. I got this cool name reserved in case this don't work out so well here. I'm making membership + posting private, so you'll have to ask to be allowed. Please use your Basenotes UserID so it'll be easier for me to filter out the stiffs (perfume big wigs). Also, feel free to include anything to confirm your identity, I will be polishing this up later, but for now, just request to be a member, message me with some phrase (Example: "This is CothukoB: Ad astra per aspera."), and post that very same phrase in this thread \/ five minutes later. This is a way of keeping the industry out, and I know it isn't perfect, and probably not 100% effective, but bear with me.
    http://community.basenotes.net/showt...84#post1010184
    Last edited by _R$_; 13th April 2007 at 01:13 AM.
    As always, disregard most of what I say. It's not worth your heart health to actually worry about what a 23 year old guy from Kansas thinks. Even if he is really ridiculously good looking.

  42. #42

    Question Re: Decant Sales or Swaps no longer permitted on BN

    Quote Originally Posted by rach2jlc View Post
    Grant, I know your job is tough and that you have to make some difficult decisions, but this sort of blunt command is a little surprising, uncharacteristic, and (as Hirch noted) discourteous to the many members who pay the subscription fees and also list decants. For the majority of decanters, the purpose is simply to try new things and to spread around some of our favorites to our Bnotes friends, not to make a quick buck (in fact, I can think of only a few members that charge enough for their decants to actually make anything off of them).

    At the end of the day, it's your forum and you can do what you like, but I DO think that members are entitled to know the reasoning for such a sudden command.

    EDIT: Just read the "ebay discontinuing decants" thread and so I guess I understand the reasoning, though I'd like to hear it explained by Grant, too. My biggest concern with this is that often the decant buyers/sellers/traders were those with the largest collections and some of the most experience/knowledge on the forum. Taking away decants will thus perhaps push them away and things will become even more of a "Frangrance 101 for Newbies" with little incentive for older members to stay around who want to dive a little deeper and go beyond the same five threads repeated ad nauseum. I'm afraid that they will continue moving elsewhere.
    Could you name some other sites that go deeper? Or other sites that discuss colognes, etc? Thanks

  43. #43

    Default Re: Decant Sales or Swaps no longer permitted on BN

    Quote Originally Posted by socalwoman View Post
    I would guess that eBay didn't even bother have their legal team research the issue - it was cheaper, time-wise, nuisance-wise and cash-wise for them to cave. Anyway, we don't know... at least I don't know. We also don't know which companies pressured eBay. But most importantly, we don't know how it may have played out legally. Obviously, this site doesn't have the resources to test the issue in court but I haven't heard that there has been any pressuring from any company to make Basenotes change anything.
    Socalwoman makes some excellent points! (BTW, I will take a second to give her a plug - she's GREAT - something worth remembering!)

    I wish we could be privy to exactly what the Ebay seller was told. I imagine that it's super-easy for Ebay to scan their database for a particular word, say, "decant", and then send threatening emails to those vendors. Similar to the RIAA sending threatening letters, no doubt with scary legal firm letterheads, to senior citizens and children to stop the evil practice of music downloading. Even with their massive resources and legal teams, they are counting on the seller being afraid and simply stopping, which means they've very cheaply induced compliance!

    It's true, companies are zealous about defending their trademarks, and maybe rightly so. But IMHO, the decant business is miniscule, largely limited to hobbyists like us. I tend to agree with SoCal... beyond a sternly-worded letter or email, I doubt they'd even bother to pursue it - despite their perceived power, they have to weigh cost and time vs. benefit. And it's a shame that we're that docile. Just my opinion.

  44. #44
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    Default Re: Decant Sales or Swaps no longer permitted on BN

    I appreciate reading everyone's take on this development.

    One of the problems with having to use an underground system is that it isn't easily accessible to new visitors (which any website needs for continued existence).

    For a site to be successful, it has to provide value for its audience. There is every possibility that the new site being developed by the decanting queens of ebay (expected to surface in about two months according to Buffalo_Gals) will be the latest, greatest fragrance hang-out yet. If, as is now rumored, these extraordinary women combine their fragrance and internet savvy, they will be able to dispense advice and products unparalleled. Many of us will simply drift to where the action is, despite an affection for old Basenotes here. Such is the nature of evolution and competition. We live in interesting times.
    In a world where 6 million people are added each month, every landscape matters.

  45. #45

    Default Re: Decant Sales or Swaps no longer permitted on BN

    What i'd like to see???? Perfumers/Houses who have no problem with decanters - coming out and saying so. I'd more likely consider buying from/supporting them than the ones who get their knickers in a twist over intelekshal propitty....
    Last edited by jaelynn; 13th April 2007 at 04:39 PM.
    We make a living by what we get. We make a life by what we give - W. Churchill

  46. #46
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    Default Re: Decant Sales or Swaps no longer permitted on BN

    Sign up here to stay in touch with some of our major ebay decantresses:

    http://perfumeposse.com/resoures-for...s-and-samples/
    In a world where 6 million people are added each month, every landscape matters.

  47. #47

    Default Re: Decant Sales or Swaps no longer permitted on BN

    Quote Originally Posted by Quarry View Post
    Sign up here to stay in touch with some of our major ebay decantresses:

    http://perfumeposse.com/resoures-for...s-and-samples/
    Wow quarry that really looks like it has some momentum. It looks like it is largely orientated towards women and their scents. Is that correct?
    "Don’t try to be original. Be simple. Be good technically, and if there is something in you, it will come out. ” - Henri Matisse.

    "Wear R de Capucci" - Hirch Duckfinder

    reviews

  48. #48

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    Default Re: Decant Sales or Swaps no longer permitted on BN

    Quote Originally Posted by _R$_ View Post
    PS -
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BN_Underground/. I got this cool name reserved in case this don't work out so well here. I'm making membership + posting private, so you'll have to ask to be allowed. Please use your Basenotes UserID so it'll be easier for me to filter out the stiffs (perfume big wigs).
    http://community.basenotes.net/showt...84#post1010184

    Uhm, speaking of intellectual property, did you clear this with the King of Basenotes???? It's a very clear filter extension separated by a few clicks and even using 'BN' in the name.
    It strikes me as way not right.
    Please, spritz responsibly.

  49. #49

    Default Re: Decant Sales or Swaps no longer permitted on BN

    If selling decants is outlawed, only outlaws will sell decants!

    Yee haw, circle the wagons!

  50. #50

    Default Re: Decant Sales or Swaps no longer permitted on BN

    I have thought long and hard about posting this (it may not even remain up for long after Grant has read it) but I have to add my thoughts to this thread.

    For those of you who do not know me I occasionally contribute news/articles (under the name Danielle Osborne) and I organised the Basenotes lunch, as well as helping out with some of the behind the scenes data entry and admin that is necessary for the day to day running of the site (and most of it is carried out by Grant). I became involved in Basenotes when I met, dated and then married Grant so obviously from the very beginning of this post I will not even pretend that I am impartial/unbiased. I am not a very regular poster but I am a regular reader and I have been following this subject across the various threads here and at MUA, POL and Now Smell This with growing interest and, then, I have to say it, a little consternation.

    As a lot of you will know Grant started this site seven years ago when nothing like this existed. There was nowhere on the web at that time that people with a passion and desire to learn more about fragrance could get industry info and discuss with like-minded people. Grant had previously worked on a fragrance counter and was interested in furthering his knowledge. He decided to make a site with the info and tips he had already learnt. In the first four years the site was small, the entire period saw the site grow from 1 to 2000 members. Advertising has always been the main source of support for the site but during those four years there were times that the advertising revenue didn't even cover running costs.

    Grant had all of the usual family and social commitments during this time as well as his full-time job. People always wanted to know why he carried on with something that not only sometimes cost him money, but also cost him so much time. He had indulged his hobby and now could get on with his other favourite past time - beer, so why not? He didn't stop because he realised the value of the project he had started. Not monetary value - of course it is always a dream that basenotes will become a profitable enough concern that we can both live on full-time, I won't pretend otherwise - but if that had been Grant's only motivation he would have shut down years ago and started a loan rates comparison site or a second-hand music exchange. Grant knew that he had brought a group of people together and it was important to him that they continued to have somewhere to meet and learn, based on the original basenotes model. The long hours that he has dedicated to this website were rewarded with an evergrowing membership and now he tells people with pride of the 10,000 registered members that have been part of basenotes.

    Yes the advertising revenue is increasing and supporting members have shown their appreciation for the many new features that Grant has devised but the site is still a labour of love and there are still plenty of other online concerns that would be much less labour intensive for the same or higher income. Grant will not consider them because basenotes is about his passion as well as yours. Basenotes is not a major company, it does not employ a large staff and Grant is not based in an office. This whole thing is designed and coded from the corner of one man's living room. The valuable back-up and assistance from the six mods (which cannot be under-estimated) and the contributions from writers (who all started out as fans of the site) are all the help that he has - everything else you see is Grant. I have rambled on and veered seemingly completely off-topic, but I have a point so please bear with me.

    I can fully understand the anger that has been expressed on the subject of the removal of the selling and swapping of decants from Basenotes. It is a great way to learn more, try more and share experience. It is helpful to people who cannot access large stores/niche perfumers. I can also understand the necessity for perfumers to protect their trademark and retain quality control. We are not just talking about people like (PURELY EXAMPLE) Chanel, we are also talking about individuals who have single handedly built an amazing brand (again purely example) such as Linda Pilkington at Ormonde Jayne. I can understand that this is a complex issue and that both sides have a lot of valid points to make. I am sure that decanting will continue and I wish the best of luck to all of the people that are venturing into new websites and new affliations.

    My point (at last!) is that basenotes is a multi-faceted site that Grant has designed to include the sharing of information, the posting of industry news, the directory, the boards, the reviews, the wardrobes, the world exclusives, the competitions, the awards and now the blogs - I am sure I have missed a few. Because Grant has decided that it is no longer practicable to include the facilty to sell and swap decants, people here are proclaiming the site as finished, that the supporting fee is now a waste of money and that they will be posting elsewhere. It is hurtful for me personally when I see how much time and effort goes into this site, often at the expense of family engagements/quality time, that people are prepared to cast Basenotes off and damn Grant as weak and as bowing down to corporate pressure (especially as he has not been contacted by anyone from any of the perfume companies). He has not received a single email or pm in which any of the, understandably, upset members attempt to discuss their thoughts and feelings or question him more closely. The only communication anyone has offered is what has been posted and much of it is negative, there has been very little defence of Grant and few attempts to try to understand his situation. I relaise that a lot of people that use this site have been doing so for many years and have contributed much to the community but I can assure you, no matter how much you feel you have contributed to the site or how important it is to you as a place to carry out your fragrance related activites that will never compare to the heart and soul that Grant pours into it and the importance of this site to him. Sorry to go on but I felt very strongly that someone should try to present an alternative point of view and explain a little more to those who might think that this is a huge company or is run by someone who doesn't care. Nothing is further from the truth.

    Dani

  51. #51

    Default Re: Decant Sales or Swaps no longer permitted on BN

    Thanks Dani. It is very obvious that what you wrote came from the very core of your heart.

    I never doubted Grant's enormous effort in creating and getting Basenotes this far, and I know the majority of the members here feel this way. If something negative came out in the posts in this thread, it was basically because of anger and frustation at the situation.

    I don't think the negativity was directed at Grant or at Basenotes, at least that is my point of view, and I hope other members can voice their opinion on this.

    By the way love your articles and please keep up the good work .

    Cheers to both you and Grant.
    Vijay"Maisonstinky"

  52. #52

    Default Re: Decant Sales or Swaps no longer permitted on BN

    Quote Originally Posted by kissandmakeup View Post
    My point (at last!) is that basenotes is a multi-faceted site that Grant has designed to include the sharing of information, the posting of industry news, the directory, the boards, the reviews, the wardrobes, the world exclusives, the competitions, the awards and now the blogs - I am sure I have missed a few. Because Grant has decided that it is no longer practicable to include the facilty to sell and swap decants, people here are proclaiming the site as finished, that the supporting fee is now a waste of money and that they will be posting elsewhere. It is hurtful for me personally when I see how much time and effort goes into this site, often at the expense of family engagements/quality time, that people are prepared to cast Basenotes off and damn Grant as weak and as bowing down to corporate pressure (especially as he has not been contacted by anyone from any of the perfume companies). He has not received a single email or pm in which any of the, understandably, upset members attempt to discuss their thoughts and feelings or question him more closely. The only communication anyone has offered is what has been posted and much of it is negative, there has been very little defence of Grant and few attempts to try to understand his situation. I relaise that a lot of people that use this site have been doing so for many years and have contributed much to the community but I can assure you, no matter how much you feel you have contributed to the site or how important it is to you as a place to carry out your fragrance related activites that will never compare to the heart and soul that Grant pours into it and the importance of this site to him. Sorry to go on but I felt very strongly that someone should try to present an alternative point of view and explain a little more to those who might think that this is a huge company or is run by someone who doesn't care. Nothing is further from the truth.

    Dani

    True Dani, the heart of the site are the boards - I can look up reviews and get decants at any other perfume site too, but I have more fun being part of a community at basenotes than conversing at the other sites.
    -

  53. #53
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    Default Re: Decant Sales or Swaps no longer permitted on BN

    Kudos to you both. This is an extraordinary site and one I fully enjoy visiting almost daily.

    My ire is directed at the cave-in of eBay, who were in the best of financial and power positions to resist the attempt, and the forces that directed that cave in. But then, I don't hold eBay in high regard so it isn't too surprising.

    Long Live Basenotes! And thanks again to Grant for his incredible efforts and foresight.

    kbe
    'Those who grow too big for their pants will be exposed in the end'--anon

  54. #54

    Default Re: Decant Sales or Swaps no longer permitted on BN

    I just wanted to express my gratitude to Grant and Danielle for having managed to take Basenotes to where it is today; a totally unique community, IMHO.
    Of course many of us feel frustration because of this decant issue, but personally I fully support Grant on his decision.
    As said before, this site belongs to Grant, and nobody else, and I´m quite sure he knows what he´s doing!

    Keep up the good work, Grant!
    Everything passes. Everything changes. Just do what you think you should do.
    --Bob Dylan

  55. #55

    Default Re: Decant Sales or Swaps no longer permitted on BN

    Danielle,
    I'm sorry that this storm of opinion has made you feel badly. Grant has done a tremendous amount of work, and we love him for it!!!

    As a software person, I'm all-too-aware that when you remove a feature that people use, even for a good reason, you will get roasted. So in that sense, it's not personal, if that helps any.

    I suppose that it might have gone down a little easier if perhaps Grant had explained in a little more detail first. In my opinion, whatever we are, we feel like a community, and since Grant is part of the community, I daresay that we crave knowing the full story (whether or not it can be told), else it feels like a family member hatching a surprise. So in a way, we may have taken it personally, and reacted strongly.

    The headline was a bit strong, maybe, and that can also get people on the defensive or angry rapidly... something like Change in Decant Policy might have gone down easier without being false or misleading.

    I'm pretty sure we'll get through this intact, and we'll calm down. Thanks again for your candor and thoughts, and I look forward to hearing from you again on the forum!

    Best Wishes, Dave

  56. #56
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    Default Re: Decant Sales or Swaps no longer permitted on BN

    I'll quote myself from earlier: I don't blame Grant at all for the changes at BN. I never sold anything here and bought only one thing. I became a paying supporter for all the other features. I'm ticked off at the frag lawyers who put the squeeze on ebay, and I'd like to have real company names toward which to shake my fist and send curt letters.

    Those who think a sell-and-swap board is worthwhile (and probably legal) can go ahead and set one up, invest in the software and time, and watch their own mailbox for the possibility of cease-and-desist letters. I'm sure Grant will be happy to post a link to your site .
    In a world where 6 million people are added each month, every landscape matters.

  57. #57

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    Default Re: Decant Sales or Swaps no longer permitted on BN

    Wow! kissandmakeup is the Queen of Basenotes!!! My head must be in the sand--I had no idea! I read the articles, of course, and figured out Danielle was the wife of Grant, but writing a few articles seemed a bit distant. I do remember when Grant posted a picture of his computer in the corner of his living room, with a stray bottle and a diaper or two hanging around. I thought of his wife's position at the time--with wonder and a bit of pity (please take no offence, I was a computer widow to a zero income software company for a space of time when my two boys were 0 and 2 years old. My husband quit his job though, to do it for three years. It was not a happy time. )

    But now, I don't feel so bad! I'm sorry---I'm just so happy basenotes has a Queen!
    Please, spritz responsibly.

  58. #58

    Default Re: Decant Sales or Swaps no longer permitted on BN

    I've only just read this thread...yes, I guess it's upsetting for some people that there won't be any sales/swaps of decants anymore, but do we want Grant to get into trouble with fragrance companies & their lawyers just because some people want to keep going?

    This site is a fantastic resource, and the forum's so much fun to be a part of!! I've met a whole lot of great people who are nice and always willing to offer advice and a helping hand. I hope to make more friends on this site, coz the people here are fantastic!!! Remember, the forum is here so we can socialise and get to know each other, as well as everything to do with the world of fragrance.

    I'd like to thank Grant & Danielle for all the hard work they put into making Basenotes a fantastic site, and the forums a great place to be!!!

  59. #59

    Default Re: Decant Sales or Swaps no longer permitted on BN

    Wow, I've a number of replies.

    FIrst off: sucks. a real kick in the teeth. For me, the decanting game, with all the back and forth, the longstanding relationships you develop (I can call stuigi's address from my mind as quickly as my own) and the initiation of newbies (I always loved adding lotsa surprises when lurkers placed orders) was an integral thread knitting this community together. For some of us, the "hobbyist decanters", its just a bother (ED Luce's discontinuation of my weapon of choice, the frosted 10 ml, has made me pretty much fold up my tent anyway). For someone like Buffalo_Gals, who sells decants as at least a part-time job, it's a body blow (my heart goes out to you Diane). It's gonna take some readjusting for sure.

    Secondly: to Vijay, Socal and GreySwan and others who raised objections, I think the thing to do here is cede the decision-making to Grant. I couldn't have said it better than John:
    Quote Originally Posted by rach2jlc View Post
    But, again, it's Grant's decision to make and he is the one with everything at stake.
    We're all essentially houseguests here, and if Grant doesn't want the potential grief of a threatening lawyer, I think its only right for us to comply. While some objections are well-taken, people goading Grant to "have some balls" is just really rude. And while Stu has a good point in that Ebay takes a cut of the sales and Grant doesn't (making Grant less culpable), I believe the laws in the UK are different than the US w/r/t websites and messageboards. In the states, Grant would be just hosting, and would have no more responsibility than Craig does over craigslist. In the UK, Grant is regarded more like a publisher, and is thus answerable for what goes on here. Furtermore, if you read Grant's second, explanatory post carefully, and watch for italics, I'm sure we'll find a way to deal

    Lastly, to Dani: it's an enormous pleasure to meet you. Thanks for your generosity to us, as I know Grant spends loads of time keeping this place alive for us. My girlfriend complains I spend too much time in front of the computer, and not enough with her. I can only imagine the sacrifice you've made.

    -Phil
    Last edited by Joel_Cairo; 14th April 2007 at 05:16 AM.

  60. #60

    Default Re: Decant Sales or Swaps no longer permitted on BN

    I have not taken part in the discussion (since most of it sickens me) but I will now, thanks to Dani and her post.

    I have never been an active user of the marketplace, but I have swapped decants with some BN members. All these transactions took place outside the marketplace.

    I couldn't believe my eyes when I read that some people felt they were wasting their money on being supporters if the option of selling decants on the BN marketplace was going to be taken away or that a huge number of people would leave (or according to some people join) BN because of it.

    Is that really the most important feature on BN? The only reason to be a member (supportive or not)? I don't think so, and I believe I'm not alone with my thoughts.

    Last but certainly not least: Hats off to Grant and a HUGE Thank You for Basenotes! Keep up the good work.
    "Wovon man nicht lesen kann, darüber muss man schreiben."

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