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  1. #151

    Default Re: Perfumed Court - Very Expensive !

    Yes, certainly a business is meant to make money, but not outrageously, especially when the authority is not stably built.

    Anyway, there are many alternative ways to obtain the same items. I do not necessarily buy from TPC. And as a consumer, I agree the topic the price is unreasonably expensive.
    Current favorites:

    Jicky, Mitsouko, Shiseido Susuro,Or et Noir

  2. #152

    Default Re: Perfumed Court - Very Expensive !

    Okay, here's an example: a Serge Lutens bell jar of XXX juice (30ml left) selling for $130!!! Doesn't it cost roughly $150 for the same thing BNIB (75ml)?!? Now, I know Americans may have problems getting hold of these but, surely, there are FAR BETTER alternatives? Even ebay is a better alternative...

    I still think Perfumed Court is great for getting rare or discontinued decants and samples but some of these prices are (to be blunt) a joke!
    Last edited by Trebor; 7th January 2008 at 09:19 AM.

  3. #153

    Default Re: Perfumed Court - Very Expensive !

    Quote Originally Posted by Trebor View Post
    I still think Perfumed Court is great for getting rare or discontinued decants and samples but some of these prices are (to be blunt) a joke!
    You took the words right out of my mouth.

  4. #154
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    Default Re: Perfumed Court - Very Expensive !

    I have to honest here; empty sample vials are not expensive, when I worked for Guerlain my rep used to pick them up for me, so I could sample some of our fragrances not generally sampled, i.e. Chant d'arome, Parure, and Nahema for instance. Now when you think of a bottle of say...Sous le vent, by Guerlain selling for $250 at Bergdorfs, in the 120ml size. Now when you do the math of a 2ml vial selling for around $6 or even more, you are making a nice profit. I personally think it is outrageous, and I know there are many people who enjoy their services, but I think it is a bit much. I used to give people samples all the time when I worked for different cosmetic companies. I received gratis, and if someone really wanted to try something, I would just make a small vial sample of say Metallica, or Guet-Apens...just so they could experience it. But then again, I adore fragrances for the sake of beauty. I know it is a business, but I still see the art of it, and when I could I enjoyed sharing. It is a shame I did not know about this site a couple of years ago, I would have been the good-fairy of samples. And just some food for thought; I used to have a vintage bottle of Ecusson, I ended up sampling it then giving the last 1/3 to a friend. I love to share fine fragrance, then again I am french...I love to share fine food, wine, and of course chocolate, with people. One time one of my customers told me she hoped to find a fragrance she could not find in the states any longer, I told her it was still available in France and I would bring her back a bottle. When I brought it back for her she tried to give me money for doing it, offered to give me a gift card etc... I told her "The joy on your face when I presented you this long lost treasure, it was worth more than rubies." That is what it is to me, to love fragrance, not crazy prices.
    Last edited by Brielle87; 8th January 2008 at 04:23 AM. Reason: forgot a word

  5. #155

    Default Re: Perfumed Court - Very Expensive !

    wow Brielle i wish the world had more people like you

  6. #156

    Default Re: Perfumed Court - Very Expensive !

    Quote Originally Posted by Brielle87 View Post
    Now when you think of a bottle of say...Sous le vent, by Guerlain selling for $250 at Bergdorfs, in the 120ml size. Now when you do the math of a 2ml vial selling for around $6 or even more, you are making a nice profit. I personally think it is outrageous, and I know there are many people who enjoy their services, but I think it is a bit much.
    This just from a business perspective, so please don't take this personally.

    Allright I will do the math with the figures you provided :

    Sous le vent, by Guerlain $ 250 (They are not buying wholesale, because they are not buying in bulk)

    Bottle size : 120 ml

    2 ml vial 120/2 = 60 vials

    2 ml vials sold for $ 6 each

    So the total they derived from the bottle 6 * 60 = $ 360

    This means they made a total of $ 110 on a $ 250 investment. If you want to ask me that is not enough ROI (return on investment) on the product. I have been in business myself, that is not enough to survive in business . True they sell a lot more products, but in business you have to see the ROI on each product. You make more on some products and less on some, to even out.

    I have not taken into account the cost of vials, time spent making samples. Spillage on some products while making the vials (Been there myself ). Driving to mail the products and time spent waiting in line to do that.

    I have also not taken into account if they sold all 60 vials of this product. I am sure they have to eat the cost, when they cannot sell all of it on a lot of products.

    Should I go on with the other costs associated with running a business, I don't think I will, because we have a lot of intelligent people on the forum, who will understand what I am driving at.

    Now, on a personal level, you did a great job satisfying your customers by providing a sample for something they wanted. That is part of customer service also. I did that too, when I had my store, because of the love of it, and the happiness you derive personally from making someone happy. I commend you on doing what you did for a customer, by bringing back a bottle from France and not charging her.
    Last edited by maisonstinky; 9th January 2008 at 01:47 AM.
    Vijay"Maisonstinky"

  7. #157
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    Default Re: Perfumed Court - Very Expensive !

    Well thank you maisonstinky for the breakdown. I happen to understand business quite well, and disdain it thoroughly (whole capitalistic thing and such) my grandfather owned a very successful business himself. I also happen to be quite intelligent, I am working on my second masters in foreign language acquisition. I am just saying that I, personally, would rather provide a service at a reasonable price, and garner many loyal clients; opposed to charging top dollar and having a limited group of clients. I think many people here can understand that, and how many more would be apt to try more fragrances if they were not out of the price range. All in all, ca m'est egal.

  8. #158

    Default Re: Perfumed Court - Very Expensive !

    Quote Originally Posted by Brielle87 View Post
    I think many people here can understand that, and how many more would be apt to try more fragrances if they were not out of the price range.
    I totally and wholeheartedly agree with you on this statement.

    By the way , I never questioned your intelligence, so please don't take this personally .
    Vijay"Maisonstinky"

  9. #159
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    Default Re: Perfumed Court - Very Expensive !

    Given Masonstinky's example as a representative sample of profit, the Perfumed Court, assuming a 100% sales rate and a 100% decanting success of 60 individual 2 ml samples @ $6 each from a 120 ml bottle that cost $250 dollars, and considering no other costs related to the sale (decant vial, misc. overhead etc), makes a ROI of about 44%.

    Hardly outrageous IMO. And viva (rational) capitalism, without which we would all be crushing flowers to wear as scent.
    Last edited by kbe; 9th January 2008 at 01:59 AM.
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  10. #160

    Default Re: Perfumed Court - Very Expensive !

    Quote Originally Posted by kbe View Post
    Given Masonstinky's example as a representative sample of profit, the Perfumed Court, assuming a 100% sales rate and a 100% decanting success of 60 individual 2 ml samples @ $6 each from a 120 ml bottle that cost $250 dollars, and considering no other costs related to the sale (decant vial, misc. overhead etc), makes a ROI of about 44%.

    Hardly outrageous IMO. And viva (rational) capitalism, without which we would all be crushing flowers to wear as scent.
    +1 to that last point. Funny how so many who benefit from capitalism are so quick to bash it. Anyway, to add to your point - as Maisonstinky pointed out - he's underestimating their costs. They do have to buy the vials, buy the padded envelopes to ship them in, and pay for the postage. On top of that, they have to pay for the website that everyone happily peruses. What about the cable or DSL service? How about the electric bill? Oh yeah, and when you're decanting hundreds of vials of perfume, there's going to be breakage and spillage. All of these are the fixed, non-labor costs. And they ought to charge something for their time and efforts (buying frags, vials, pipettes, padded envelopes, etc., maintaining the site, decanting, packaging, traveling to the PO, and other things I'm sure I'm not listing).

    Maybe some of their individual bottles or perfumes are priced on the high side, but on the whole, I don't think they're out of line. And if you can find better deals, then by all means use those and over time it will force TPC's prices to drop...on top of that, you have the option of offering them what you think is fair based on your research. It's not like they're the IRS (the US federal tax agency) or the like.

    I used to decant when it was allowed on BN. I charged about 2/3 what TPC charges, and when I factored in all my costs, I lost money. I did it to share and recoup some costs...but then again, I was not making a living and paying my bills with the decants I sold, so I didn't really care. I was just funding the purchase of other frags. I suspect these ladies are counting on their income to pay some bills, or they would not have gone to such lengths to set up a multi-person, interstate website business. I'm grateful they are taking the risk to buy all these weird frags that no 4 people could possibly ever use, and offering them to us in small amounts so that we can try them out.

  11. #161
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    Default Re: Perfumed Court - Very Expensive !

    I've used them a couple of times. I only order the samples because they're affordable and I think I get enough in the sample to determine whether the scent is bottle worthy or not. I've never had a problem with their service and would use them again... As for the prices, yes they're expensive but not outrageously so... I see no difference with what they do than when I go out to a club or a lounge here in NYC and they charge me $12-$14 for a Grey Goose on the rocks... Everyone knows you can get a whole bottle of Grey Goose for $30 or $35, but that doesn't stop people from buying...

  12. #162

    Default Re: Perfumed Court - Very Expensive !

    Quote Originally Posted by robyogi View Post
    I used to decant when it was allowed on BN. I charged about 2/3 what TPC charges, and when I factored in all my costs, I lost money. I did it to share and recoup some costs...but then again, I was not making a living and paying my bills with the decants I sold, so I didn't really care. I was just funding the purchase of other frags. I suspect these ladies are counting on their income to pay some bills, or they would not have gone to such lengths to set up a multi-person, interstate website business. I'm grateful they are taking the risk to buy all these weird frags that no 4 people could possibly ever use, and offering them to us in small amounts so that we can try them out.
    I always thought decanting was a side business for them, but maybe it was not correct to assume... Then just out of curiosity, do they pay tax on the profit?

  13. #163

    Default Re: Perfumed Court - Very Expensive !

    For me decanting is about releasing money from my collection to buy more frags as I can never use it all up anyway. On some things I make a slight monetary gain and other a slight loss. There is time and hassle involved but if I get a little in my paypal account to purchase a bottle every now and then, its all good. However, I am not trying to run a business.

    I can see from my own activity that if I was trying to run a business, that costs would mean prices would have to be high. For me, this takes things into a murky area.

    I question the morality of what they are doing. The same arguments that people are using to justify TPC prices, could surely be used for those making and bottling the frags in the first place. They invest a lot in getting the perfume in the bottle and marketed in the first place, so why should someone else be able to profit from their investment and labour? (unless the producers specifically agree to it - some small companies may benefit from the publicity).

    Those who support the capitalism of what TPC are doing must surely support the capitalism of what the perfume companies are doing for the same reasons. It must then be "their call" as to whether decanting is beneficial to their business or not.

    Personally I think decanting as a business in itself is immoral, it is different if decanting is a way of sharing with some remuneration going back the other way. The perfume companies already have a large markup on the actual cost of the fragrance. That is capitalism (like it or loathe it), TPC are making another. It is already bad enough paying £$200 for a bottle of Guerlain Double Vanille which probably costs £5 to make, TPC are tripple that again and charging $48 for 8ml.
    Last edited by hirch_duckfinder; 9th January 2008 at 10:15 AM.
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  14. #164

    Default Re: Perfumed Court - Very Expensive !

    Quote Originally Posted by hirch_duckfinder View Post
    For me decanting is about releasing money from my collection to buy more frags as I can never use it all up anyway. On some things I make a slight monetary gain and other a slight loss. There is time and hassle involved but if I get a little in my paypal account to purchase a bottle every now and then, its all good. However, I am not trying to run a business.

    I can see from my own activity that if I was trying to run a business, that costs would mean prices would have to be high. For me, this takes things into a murky area.

    I question the morality of what they are doing. The same arguments that people are using to justify TPC prices, could surely be used for those making and bottling the frags in the first place. They invest a lot in getting the perfume in the bottle and marketed in the first place, so why should someone else be able to profit from their investment and labour? (unless the producers specifically agree to it - some small companies may benefit from the publicity).

    Those who support the capitalism of what TPC are doing must surely support the capitalism of what the perfume companies are doing for the same reasons. It must then be "their call" as to whether decanting is beneficial to their business or not.

    Personally I think decanting as a business in itself is immoral, it is different if decanting is a way of sharing with some remuneration going back the other way. The perfume companies already have a large markup on the actual cost of the fragrance. That is capitalism (like it or loathe it), TPC are making another. It is already bad enough paying £$200 for a bottle of Guerlain Double Vanille which probably costs £5 to make, TPC are tripple that again and charging $48 for 8ml.
    I think you've hit the nail on the head here. The whole concept of decanting, as a business in itself, will never work unless Perfumed Court are able to obtain most of their bottles DIRECTLY from the perfume houses at a wholesale (or really low) price. But, then again, their independently run operation would quickly become an issue with these houses. Anyway, taking into account maisonstinky's post, until this happens (or Perfumed Court suddenly gets scores of new customers overnight) their prices aren't going to change.

  15. #165
    Dependent pluran's Avatar
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    Default Re: Perfumed Court - Very Expensive !

    There are thousands of variables involved with the success of a business, and all of this analysis has very little to do with it.
    Last edited by pluran; 10th January 2008 at 06:54 AM.

  16. #166
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    Default Re: Perfumed Court - Very Expensive !

    Quote Originally Posted by hirch_duckfinder View Post
    Personally I think decanting as a business in itself is immoral
    That is how I feel, too. (and I do hope it' s not just that I am jealous at the ladies..)
    Everything passes. Everything changes. Just do what you think you should do.
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  17. #167

    Default Re: Perfumed Court - Very Expensive !

    I just spend a good 30 minutes reading the entire thread...I had never thought that much about decanting before. As far as having "for profit" decanting....it is an interesting idea. I for one would love to try 'Le Labo Rose 31' or Black Aoud or other really nice but really expensive fragrances. I don't have a ton of disposable income to spend and the samples are pretty expensive...but where else can I get them? If there was a way to sample them I would gladly do that, but the closest department store is Macy's and is an 8+ hour drive away and they won't have any of the more niche fragrances. So I have to decide which decants to buy but that adds up really fast and then I can't ever decide which samples to buy so I end up buying nothing and just sitting at my computer wishing I tried a lot more frags than I do......my wife has called it the "Basenotes problem".....lots of desire, not lots of money or resources. :-)

  18. #168

    Default Re: Perfumed Court - Very Expensive !

    Quote Originally Posted by primetime34 View Post
    I just spend a good 30 minutes reading the entire thread...I had never thought that much about decanting before. As far as having "for profit" decanting....it is an interesting idea. I for one would love to try 'Le Labo Rose 31' or Black Aoud or other really nice but really expensive fragrances. I don't have a ton of disposable income to spend and the samples are pretty expensive...but where else can I get them? If there was a way to sample them I would gladly do that, but the closest department store is Macy's and is an 8+ hour drive away and they won't have any of the more niche fragrances. So I have to decide which decants to buy but that adds up really fast and then I can't ever decide which samples to buy so I end up buying nothing and just sitting at my computer wishing I tried a lot more frags than I do......my wife has called it the "Basenotes problem".....lots of desire, not lots of money or resources. :-)
    There are many websites from which you can buy samples - I am not familiar with the ones in the USA - someone else can fill you in. In europe there is "first in fragrance".
    "Donít try to be original. Be simple. Be good technically, and if there is something in you, it will come out. Ē - Henri Matisse.

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  19. #169
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    Default Re: Perfumed Court - Very Expensive !

    Just after I unsubscribe from this monotonous thread it gets interesting again. Now the morality of decanting and price is being questioned. So who here will be the first Carrie Nation going after decanters with their Bibles and hatchets? Morality of selling liquids to sniff? to quaff? to shove up our asses? This is deeply troubling when the question of price takes a left turn into morality. Wear cheaper fragrances and give the homeless larger portions of your lunch instead of treading over the backs of the bruised for the lastest piss from Guerlain. As long as the free world is ok with dropping white phosphorus on children in the Middle East, I'm going to keep decanting prices off my list of immoralities.

  20. #170

    Default Re: Perfumed Court - Very Expensive !

    I'm glad to be able to try many high dollar, exotic and niche frags without having to travel the world to buy full bottles (I'd love to do that too if I could) It's like a fragrance museum being delivered to your home. Too much fun!! Question: Do the any of the frag companies disagree with sales from The Perfumed Court? I think it would help sell to a much wider audience. Basenotes alone has incresed my knowledge and curiosity of frags and I've certainly bought my share of new stuff. Perfumed Court is furthering my lust into more exotic territory.

  21. #171

    Default Re: Perfumed Court - Very Expensive !

    I am also very pleased to be able to purchase samples from TPC. There is nowhere else that I could find so many fabulous fragrances in one place. I don't buy what I can't afford and don't see it as any different from buying samples from First in Fragrance, Les Senteurs or Lucky Scent - all of whom are presumably making some amount of profit on their sample sales.

    As for the morality of the matter - I find this a curious concept. If the objection is that TPC are adding an additional mark-up on top of what the perfume houses receive, well couldn't this objection be applied to any retailer selling the fragrance. I don't really understand the moral indignation about this - it's the service that you're paying for and one that is fairly unique.

    Some of the prices are beyond my means - but this usually applies to the very high end and/or difficult to obtain fragrances. When one also factors in the time spent tracking down the fragrances in the first place, I think that the price is probably justifiable to some degree.

    I think the terms and conditions of their business are fair - regarding items not arriving etc and their customer service is great. Personally I hope they remain in business.

  22. #172
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    Default Re: Perfumed Court - Very Expensive !

    It seems to have gone unnoticed, but the above comparison to paying 14-18 dollars for a drink of Grey Goose Vodka in a big city bar or fine resteraunt is no different than paying a premium for a draught of Spirituse Vanille. If you buy Guerlain or any other fine French houses fumes in Saks Fifth Avenue do you bellyache to them about their prices in the store where everyone can hear you? Of course not. No body make us shop at Saks or TPC. We do because we can afford it.

    Is it immoral to eat Chicken Kiev when others are eating chicken salad? Should the chickens of the world be more heavily compensated? Is it immoral to eat meat? To drink alchohol? To covet the wife of *_______* a few pews up and to the left?
    Last edited by fredricktoo; 11th January 2008 at 01:53 PM.

  23. #173

    Default Re: Perfumed Court - Very Expensive !

    Quote Originally Posted by maisonstinky View Post
    Allright I will do the math with the figures you provided :

    Sous le vent, by Guerlain $ 250 (They are not buying wholesale, because they are not buying in bulk)

    Bottle size : 120 ml

    1 ml vial 120/1 = 120 vials

    1 ml vials sold for $ 4 each

    So the total they derived from the bottle 4 * 120 = $ 480

    This means they made a total of $ 230 on a $ 250 investment.
    For the sake of correct figures, I changed the above calculation according to PC's real prices.

    Or, if you like:

    Bottle size : 120 ml

    2,5 ml spray vial 120/2,5 = 48 vials

    2,5 ml vials sold for $ 12 each => 12 * 48 = $ 576

    This means they made a total of $ 326 on a $ 250 investment.

    Anyhow, although by joining they have greatly reduced a healthy market competition, they don't force anybody to buy from them...in the end, it's always the buyer's choice.
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  24. #174
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    Default Re: Perfumed Court - Very Expensive !

    Quote Originally Posted by Lady_in_Black View Post
    For the sake of correct figures, I changed the above calculation according to PC's real prices.

    Or, if you like:

    Bottle size : 120 ml

    2,5 ml spray vial 120/2,5 = 48 vials

    2,5 ml vials sold for $ 12 each => 12 * 48 = $ 576

    This means they made a total of $ 326 on a $ 250 investment.

    Anyhow, although by joining they have greatly reduced a healthy market competition, they don't force anybody to buy from them...in the end, it's always the buyer's choice.
    you've quoted maisonstinky who has owned and operated a perfume store independently and can teach us the economics of it. Economics I'm fascinated by.

    There are other Basenoters who are "in the business" and sometimes leave comments. Sometimes they don't.

  25. #175

    Default Re: Perfumed Court - Very Expensive !

    Yes, fredricktoo, I have quoted him because his calculation was based on a price which he assumed was correct but wasn't. I thought it was clear from what I wrote.
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  26. #176
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    Default Re: Perfumed Court - Very Expensive !

    Quote Originally Posted by Lady_in_Black View Post
    Yes, fredricktoo, I have quoted him because his calculation was based on a price which he assumed was correct but wasn't. I thought it was clear from what I wrote.
    There's no such thing as a fixed price on Guerlain. If you buy it locally or have a friend buy it at an employee discount there are no two prices that are the same. For an American retailer to quote a price would probably be a mid-range or ballpark price. It would probably be a price calculated by averaging.

    ahhhh Iquote this from the post above maison's

    Sous le vent, by Guerlain selling for $250 at Bergdorfs

    if you spend enough in Bergdorfs and granted it's a lot but a lot of people who shop in Bergdorfs have a lot, then they Bergdorfs can afford to throw a bottle of Sous le vent in the bag, gratis. A lot of customers would be insulted if they didn't.
    Last edited by fredricktoo; 11th January 2008 at 02:37 PM.

  27. #177

    Default Re: Perfumed Court - Very Expensive !

    Fredricktoo, I was referring to The Perfumed Court prices and not to the price of the Sous le Vent bottle. The PC are not selling a 2ml sample for 6 $, but either the 1ml vial for 4 $ each or the 2,5 spray for 12 $ each. I hope it is clear now.
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  28. #178

    Default Re: Perfumed Court - Very Expensive !

    Quote Originally Posted by Leontion View Post
    I am also very pleased to be able to purchase samples from TPC. There is nowhere else that I could find so many fabulous fragrances in one place. I don't buy what I can't afford and don't see it as any different from buying samples from First in Fragrance, Les Senteurs or Lucky Scent - all of whom are presumably making some amount of profit on their sample sales.
    I think there's a lot of TPC supporters simply for the 'one-stop shop' experience. Well, I actually dislike shopping malls and prefer the time and effort usually spent searching for things in more than one location (it's something I'm used to and it also makes the quest all the more worthwhile). Apart from a few fragrances, most can be obtained in other ways without the need to purchase a full sized bottle.

    It's really funny how one of the main supporting arguments is based on the assumption that TPC could save you money from possible unwanted bottle purchases - surely EVEN MORE money can be saved by not expecting every sample and decant to obtained from the same source (like a bloody shopping mall).

    I love writing to houses, not knowing if they'll send me any free samples, and I much prefer ordering samples and decants from Basenoters who've always offered me a superb service at REASONABLE prices (you know who you are, guys!). Leontion, most of what you want I'm sure you can get in the UK (and if not, in Europe). Of course other places are making a tiny profit from selling samples - it's completely natural.

    Each to their own, I suppose...
    Last edited by Trebor; 11th January 2008 at 03:13 PM.

  29. #179
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    Default Re: Perfumed Court - Very Expensive !

    Quote Originally Posted by Lady_in_Black View Post
    Fredricktoo, I was referring to The Perfumed Court prices and not to the price of the Sous le Vent bottle. The PC are not selling a 2ml sample for 6 $, but either the 1ml vial for 4 $ each or the 2,5 spray for 12 $ each. I hope it is clear now.

    I am bowing as I apologize Lady. I'm sorry. The speed reading lessons I took were obviously worthless.

    The 2.5ml size would be $10.00 by Maison's calculations if they weren't putting it into a reusable atomizer which I would imagine makes up for the $2.00 difference. So we have 48 atomizers to calculate as well. And a spritz to test the atomizers worth?

  30. #180

    Default Re: Perfumed Court - Very Expensive !

    Quote Originally Posted by fredricktoo View Post
    Just after I unsubscribe from this monotonous thread it gets interesting again. Now the morality of decanting and price is being questioned. So who here will be the first Carrie Nation going after decanters with their Bibles and hatchets? Morality of selling liquids to sniff? to quaff? to shove up our asses? This is deeply troubling when the question of price takes a left turn into morality. Wear cheaper fragrances and give the homeless larger portions of your lunch instead of treading over the backs of the bruised for the lastest piss from Guerlain. As long as the free world is ok with dropping white phosphorus on children in the Middle East, I'm going to keep decanting prices off my list of immoralities.
    It is the hypocrisy that I don't like. They have presented themselves as having been wronged by the "nasty perfume giants" who tried to restrict their decant sales. They then invoke the same arguments used by those giants in order to justify their very high prices. I will address your political points elsewhere, if you like. Suffice it to say, I am no lover of capitalism.
    Last edited by hirch_duckfinder; 11th January 2008 at 05:21 PM.
    "Donít try to be original. Be simple. Be good technically, and if there is something in you, it will come out. Ē - Henri Matisse.

    "Wear R de Capucci" - Hirch Duckfinder

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