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  1. #1

    Default Perfume culture = gay culture ?

    I just read this hilarious writeup by Luca Turin:

    "Obviously, perfume culture itself is to a great degree gay culture, though some people think you're not supposed to say it. Gay guys were bored with all these stupid hairy-chested male fragrances and went out and bought Alpona, by Caron, which is wonderful. Actually, there aren't many gay perfumers. It's weird. Jean Guerlain said, 'I composed Chamade for my then girlfriend,' and I thought, 'Right.' Turned out it was true. I mean, it's not weird in that the Grasse milieu is still completely homophobic-I know one young guy who was not taken in perfume school simply because he was gay. Mind you, he was also a raging pain in the ass, but so what? The thing is, all their customers are gay, and you'd think it would be to their advantage to have a few around 'in house.' But instead they get Englishmen. Fashion is gay. We're living under a gay dictatorship; I'm sick of it. Look at that vile Gaultier's Le Male, what do I care about that stuff? Put it this way: I love Old Spice-you go back to the time of freshly shaven Daddy. What's wrong with that?"

    If I understand correctly, is Luca Turin implying that being gay promotes creativity in perfumery? Are there any gay perfumers?

    The full article, where Turin compares French and English perfumery, and looks down on italian perfumery amongst other things, is at :

    http://www.chandlerburr.com/newsite/...excerpts/5.php
    Last edited by zztopp; 1st September 2007 at 05:47 AM.
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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Perfume culture = gay culture ?

    So, if this is all true, what does it make Luca Turin, who famously rhapsodizes about perfume?
    Yr good bud,

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  3. #3

    Thumbs down Re: Perfume culture = gay culture ?

    I just finished his book - The Secret Of Scent - this morning! I must say I enjoyed this a little less.
    After reading the quote a couple times, I seem to get:

    1. Gays have good taste in perfume.

    2. Perfumers aren't gay, but should be, because fashion - and thus perfume - is gay.

    3. It's a bad thing that fashion is gay.

    A contradictory, stereotyping, and possibly homophobic message.
    I hope he sticks to writing about perfume chemistry rather than perfume sociology in future...

  4. #4

    Default Re: Perfume culture = gay culture ?

    I don't think discussing gayness would belong to the discussion of scents. I don't care if any of you are gay, and also, do hope that you are not interested in my sexual orientation.

    As to Luca Turin, he should push up his article.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Perfume culture = gay culture ?

    Luca Turin, simply put, is an ASS!

  6. #6

    Default Re: Perfume culture = gay culture ?

    Quote Originally Posted by zztopp View Post
    I just read this hilarious writeup by Luca Turin:....
    (yawning a big yawn...) Good Morning to you, zztopp! If you find this writeup hilarious, I recommend reading

    Chandler Burr / The Emperor of Scent, Random House 2002.

    This is fairly old stuff, and the author is not Turin but Chandler Burr. He has obviously been quoting himself from one of the last chapters, "VII Russia", of his own book - a good book, if I may add.
    Last edited by narcus; 1st September 2007 at 09:07 AM.
    'Il mondo dei profumi č un universo senza limiti: una fraganza puo rievocare sensazioni, luoghi, persone o ancora condurre in uno spazio di nuove dimensioni emozionali' L. V.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Perfume culture = gay culture ?

    Parfume can´t judged by gayness hahaha...maybe gay people got another feeling to parfum or fashion...is like you sayin a white man can jump...the black people got the longest d... !!!
    It depends on a person how creativ he or she is (he can be hetro, gay, black or white, rich or poor).

  8. #8

    Default Re: Perfume culture = gay culture ?

    "All their customers are gay." ???? I beg to differ!

    Also, what is that stuff about Old Spice and Le Male at the end supposed to mean? The whole thing was poorly written and unclear, whether you agree or not. I've never been impressed with any Turin writings, actually, and this just cements my view.
    Last edited by LiveJazz; 1st September 2007 at 09:02 AM.
    "It's not what you look like when you're doing what you're doing; it's what you're doing when you're doing what you look like you're doing."

  9. #9

    Default Re: Perfume culture = gay culture ?

    I´m so glad that Bois du Portugal was created from a real man (Mr. Creed) :-)

  10. #10

    Default Re: Perfume culture = gay culture ?

    Quote Originally Posted by LiveJazz View Post
    "All their customers are gay." ???? I beg to differ! ...The whole thing was poorly written and unclear, whether you agree or not. I've never been impressed with any Turin writings, actually, and this just cements my view.
    Please get it out of your heads, men. Turin has not written such a thing ! Burr is the author, and he wrote that in 2002 at the latest. That becomes evident, if you go to the source quoted. The link itself refers to 'Emperor / excerpt...' A lot of changes have happened, and have been published since then including new kinds of perfumes worn by men. Burr has not been clear where and when Turin may have spoken about the subject, probably in the late nineties (98, if I try to pin it down), and that is about ten years ago. This century, I believe, has different subjects to get excited about. None of the critics here seem to know much about Turin's (first) Perfume Guide. Read a couple of his own recommendations from 1990-91 and you will learn how relaxed he approached perfume and gender questions already then.
    Last edited by narcus; 1st September 2007 at 11:02 AM. Reason: I include including
    'Il mondo dei profumi č un universo senza limiti: una fraganza puo rievocare sensazioni, luoghi, persone o ancora condurre in uno spazio di nuove dimensioni emozionali' L. V.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Perfume culture = gay culture ?

    Quote Originally Posted by narcus View Post
    Please get it out of your heads, men, that Turin should have written that - Burr is the author!
    But the words he's quoting are supposedly Turin's: see the rest of the article the OP linked to.
    Are you saying Burr made these quotes up? If so, has Turin commented on this falsification?

  12. #12

    Default Re: Perfume culture = gay culture ?

    Quote Originally Posted by narcus View Post
    Please get it out of your heads, men, that Turin should have written that - Burr is the author!
    Oh, well I still never liked Turin all that much. As for Burr, I read about 3 of his reviews and never bothered again. I find that I get more out of the excellent reviews on this site. And isn't that Burr quoting Turin? Either way...
    Last edited by LiveJazz; 1st September 2007 at 09:05 AM.
    "It's not what you look like when you're doing what you're doing; it's what you're doing when you're doing what you look like you're doing."

  13. #13

    Default Re: Perfume culture = gay culture ?

    what does wanting to smell good have to do with sexual preference?

  14. #14

    Default Re: Perfume culture = gay culture ?

    "Re: Perfume culture = gay culture ?"

    i'm afraid this is utter rubbish

  15. #15

    Cool Re: Perfume culture = gay culture ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandy View Post
    I don't think discussing gayness would belong to the discussion of scents. I don't care if any of you are gay, and also, do hope that you are not interested in my sexual orientation.

    As to Luca Turin, he should push up his article.
    Very much agree.
    We had somy threads like this, and to be gay doesn´t have nothing to do with perfumes or such.
    I'm gay and I love perfumes, but my partner doesn´t use it at all.
    I pass this thread as in the past everything went sharp, and it's actually unconfortable,as usual, because so many people talk about that they doesn't know about.

    Luis Miranda
    Read my perfume reviews at: http://perfumenoparatodos.blogspot.com/

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  16. #16

    Default Re: Perfume culture = gay culture ?

    I don't know who's gay and who's not. (I am, and that's all I need to know.)

    Can you imagine Burr writing something such as "We're suffering a black dictatorship in the world of jazz music?" Why should this be any different, then?

    Last time I checked, a lot of straight guys I know (and no, I don't mean Basenotes aficionados -- we're a rare breed, we Basenoters, no matter the orientation) like scents but can't admit it, least of all in Oklahoma City or Dallas or Birmingham or other "red state" places like this.

    Gay guys (outside Basenotes, that is) just tend to be more honest/up-front about this stuff. We should ALL be more like Basenoters, no matter our preference, be it chickies or dickies or both.
    Last edited by tvlampboy; 1st September 2007 at 10:15 PM.

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  17. #17

    Default Re: Perfume culture = gay culture ?

    Having read the whole article- these are my thoughts:

    At the moment described, Turin is full of himself - his perfumes are being launched. As a critic it is his job to have opinions and these may be flowing even more than usual. He is clearly very passionate about perfume. He is speaking with Burr, who is gay. He has been working closely with Burr for some time.

    He is busily making generalisations about various nationalities. He also makes generalisations about the perfume industry and gay people. It is stream-of-consciousness stuff and full of contradictions.

    I detect no malice, no homophobia in this. He is speaking openly about sexuality and fashion/perfume.I find it stimulating, engaging and interesting as most of Turins output (not Burr's which I find to be mostly mainstream journo rubbish).
    "Don’t try to be original. Be simple. Be good technically, and if there is something in you, it will come out. ” - Henri Matisse.

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  18. #18
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    Default Re: Perfume culture = gay culture ?

    Quote Originally Posted by zztopp View Post
    I just read this hilarious writeup by Luca Turin:

    "Obviously, perfume culture itself is to a great degree gay culture, though some people think you're not supposed to say it. Gay guys were bored with all these stupid hairy-chested male fragrances and went out and bought Alpona, by Caron, which is wonderful. Actually, there aren't many gay perfumers. It's weird. Jean Guerlain said, 'I composed Chamade for my then girlfriend,' and I thought, 'Right.' Turned out it was true. I mean, it's not weird in that the Grasse milieu is still completely homophobic-I know one young guy who was not taken in perfume school simply because he was gay. Mind you, he was also a raging pain in the ass, but so what? The thing is, all their customers are gay, and you'd think it would be to their advantage to have a few around 'in house.' But instead they get Englishmen. Fashion is gay. We're living under a gay dictatorship; I'm sick of it. Look at that vile Gaultier's Le Male, what do I care about that stuff? Put it this way: I love Old Spice-you go back to the time of freshly shaven Daddy. What's wrong with that?"

    If I understand correctly, is Luca Turin implying that being gay promotes creativity in perfumery? Are there any gay perfumers?

    The full article, where Turin compares French and English perfumery, and looks down on italian perfumery amongst other things, is at :

    http://www.chandlerburr.com/newsite/...excerpts/5.php
    The topic of gay culture and perfume culture has been discussed a few times here on Basenotes - each time we get wildly different viewpoints from everyone (which, is one reason why I love Basenotes...) along with highly charged, sometimes controversial (sometimes immature and childish) replies. So, I will try not to add 'fuel to the fire' in my reply. Perhaps everyone else participating in this thread could exercise some restraint also - so as not to offend other Basenoters. Sound good to you? Great!

    To address zztopp's original first question at the top of this thread: 'If I understand correctly, is Luca Turin implying that being gay promotes creativity in perfumery?' My answer is: maybe, he is. I read The Emperor of Scent last month, where zztopp's quote is taken from. Neither Luca Turin (nor its openly gay author Chandler Burr) come across, to me, as homophobic, in the leastl. On the contrary, Turin seems extremely comfortable with his sexuality (From the Emperor of the Scent Page 12, fourth sentence down - mid paragraph: 'When I wrote the perfume guide, most of my readers were gay men, and most of my acquaintances assumed I was gay, which I'm not, not that I gave a damn.') I think Turin sees that in some way, perfume/scents are popular with gay men. I think he is right. Of course, perfume/scents are also popular with non-gay men - but not the majority of non-gay men. So, IMO, Turin is saying: Hey, perfume companies - hire some gay perfumers (not just non-gay perfumers) to create some of your colognes. Perhaps the perfume companies might not get more creative perfumers if they hire a gay perfumer solely based upon his sexuality, but it would give the companies a different 'perspective'. Let's face it, being gay and being creative are not one-and-the-same...I can attest to this personally. However, gay men and non-gay men (generally) have different approaches towards many creative things, perfumery included.

    Zztopp's second question was, 'Are there any gay perfumers?' Well, of course, there are. There are gay teachers, gay senators (smile), gay firefighters - so of course there are gay perfumers. There are lesbian perfumers too! I am sure there are transsexual perfumers. Many gays/lesbians//transsexuals are 'in the closet' just like many Hollywood actors who are extremely popular, are 'in the closet' - but this does not change the fact that they exist. Andy Tauer is gay; Christophe Laudamiel and Christoph Hornetz [the ones that did that Perfume the Movie coffret by Thierry Mugler], are gay and furthermore, so is Thierry Mugler, the man himself; Christopher Brosius [owner of CBIHP line] is gay; Marc Jacobs, Helmut Lang, Hedi Slimane, Narciso Rodriguez, Calvin Klein and Tom Ford are all gay [although technically, they're not perfumers - but they have a lot to do with the scents that they helped create]. If I had to guess, I would think Serge Lutens and Edouard and Fabrice (the Le Labo founders) are gay (from the various articles and pictures I've read of them). What is my point: There are gay perfumers and Turin was openly discussing that in his view, some perfume companies want to ignore this fact and avoid hiring openly gay perfumers, because of stupidity and homophobia.

    One more thing guys:

    I'm gay (whether you give a damn, or not) and I love and hate many different scents. Whether a transsexual created them, or whether a heterosexual man created them, or whether....well, you get my drift.

    I think Turin feels the same way.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Perfume culture = gay culture ?

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeperez23 View Post
    ...I think Turin feels the same way.
    Are you sure? I have read more than a few ironical comments about Turins preference for perfumes by Miss Becker, like Tommy Girl and Beyond Paradise.

    Kidding aside - to me, your thoughtful post is informative, and invites to enter into a discussion of a more mature nature. I agree with a few important things you said. I also see inconsistencies in the material quoted by the OP. Within the context of the book these matters are rather unimportant. I never had second thoughts about this particular chapter, but it seems that these final pages are loaded with bits and pieces, material CB had collected during months or years, and now just dumped, to bring it all to an end. - - - However I wonder whether this is the ideal forum to pursue subject questions much longer. Discussing ways of living, and people from the fashion and perfume industries, seems a bit off topic for the men's fragrance board.
    Last edited by narcus; 1st September 2007 at 03:28 PM.
    'Il mondo dei profumi č un universo senza limiti: una fraganza puo rievocare sensazioni, luoghi, persone o ancora condurre in uno spazio di nuove dimensioni emozionali' L. V.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Perfume culture = gay culture ?

    --

    Thanks for your post mikeperez!
    Last edited by zztopp; 1st September 2007 at 05:27 PM.
    -

  21. #21

    Default Re: Perfume culture = gay culture ?

    I don't like the dichotomic approach: GAY - NOT GAY
    BLACK - WHITE
    True - Lie
    Life - Death

    It's not true-life categories. In real, there are lots of shades, lots of feelings..And it's natural.
    F.e. Madonna. When she was younger, her sexuality was more colorful. At one period of her life she did one things now she is happily married mother..

    Why gay culter is connected with creativity? Because they break rules.
    What is creation? It is breaking the rules, breaking what has been already created.
    They cross one boundary (homo-hetero), and it's easier to cross this boundary in other spheres f.e. creating perfumes
    Last edited by DreamerII; 1st September 2007 at 05:30 PM.
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  22. #22

    Default Re: Perfume culture = gay culture ?

    this will come as a surprise to the generations of Indian Muslims, especially the ones Luca prostrated himself to.
    I have their webpage somewhere.

    which culture is he refering to? White European culture? It's not the fans of P Diddy.

    as applied by neo-cons to entertainers I'll add Luca, shut up and sniff.
    Last edited by fredricktoo; 1st September 2007 at 05:36 PM.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Perfume culture = gay culture ?

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeperez23 View Post
    The topic of gay culture and perfume culture has been discussed a few times here on Basenotes - each time we get wildly different viewpoints from everyone (which, is one reason why I love Basenotes...) along with highly charged, sometimes controversial (sometimes immature and childish) replies. So, I will try not to add 'fuel to the fire' in my reply. Perhaps everyone else participating in this thread could exercise some restraint also - so as not to offend other Basenoters. Sound good to you? Great!

    To address zztopp's original first question at the top of this thread: 'If I understand correctly, is Luca Turin implying that being gay promotes creativity in perfumery?' My answer is: maybe, he is. I read The Emperor of Scent last month, where zztopp's quote is taken from. Neither Luca Turin (nor its openly gay author Chandler Burr) come across, to me, as homophobic, in the leastl. On the contrary, Turin seems extremely comfortable with his sexuality (From the Emperor of the Scent Page 12, fourth sentence down - mid paragraph: 'When I wrote the perfume guide, most of my readers were gay men, and most of my acquaintances assumed I was gay, which I'm not, not that I gave a damn.') I think Turin sees that in some way, perfume/scents are popular with gay men. I think he is right. Of course, perfume/scents are also popular with non-gay men - but not the majority of non-gay men. So, IMO, Turin is saying: Hey, perfume companies - hire some gay perfumers (not just non-gay perfumers) to create some of your colognes. Perhaps the perfume companies might not get more creative perfumers if they hire a gay perfumer solely based upon his sexuality, but it would give the companies a different 'perspective'. Let's face it, being gay and being creative are not one-and-the-same...I can attest to this personally. However, gay men and non-gay men (generally) have different approaches towards many creative things, perfumery included.

    Zztopp's second question was, 'Are there any gay perfumers?' Well, of course, there are. There are gay teachers, gay senators (smile), gay firefighters - so of course there are gay perfumers. There are lesbian perfumers too! I am sure there are transsexual perfumers. Many gays/lesbians//transsexuals are 'in the closet' just like many Hollywood actors who are extremely popular, are 'in the closet' - but this does not change the fact that they exist. Andy Tauer is gay; Christophe Laudamiel and Christoph Hornetz [the ones that did that Perfume the Movie coffret by Thierry Mugler], are gay and furthermore, so is Thierry Mugler, the man himself; Christopher Brosius [owner of CBIHP line] is gay; Marc Jacobs, Helmut Lang, Hedi Slimane, Narciso Rodriguez, Calvin Klein and Tom Ford are all gay [although technically, they're not perfumers - but they have a lot to do with the scents that they helped create]. If I had to guess, I would think Serge Lutens and Edouard and Fabrice (the Le Labo founders) are gay (from the various articles and pictures I've read of them). What is my point: There are gay perfumers and Turin was openly discussing that in his view, some perfume companies want to ignore this fact and avoid hiring openly gay perfumers, because of stupidity and homophobia.

    One more thing guys:

    I'm gay (whether you give a damn, or not) and I love and hate many different scents. Whether a transsexual created them, or whether a heterosexual man created them, or whether....well, you get my drift.

    I think Turin feels the same way.
    I couldn 't agree more with you!
    homophobia and strong resentment against homosexuality are a sign of repressed homosexual tendencies.
    homophobia here should be censored! we live in a world of hypocrisy! my best friend who 's gay wouldn 't be able to count the times he 's committed homosexual acts with supposedly straight guys or married men! people hate openly gay men and transgenders, in psychology it 's the "mirror effect".
    --------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by zztopp View Post
    I just read this hilarious writeup by Luca Turin:

    We're living under a gay dictatorship; I'm sick of it
    aren 't these kind of homophobic comments against the rules here?
    Last edited by Aline et Valcour; 1st September 2007 at 05:44 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  24. #24

    Default Re: Perfume culture = gay culture ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aline et Valcour View Post
    aren 't these kind of homophobic comments against the rules here?
    This type of quoted comment is not against the rules, no.
    That girl, that bottle, that mattress and me.

  25. #25

    Default Re: Perfume culture = gay culture ?

    Quote Originally Posted by DustB View Post
    This type of quoted comment is not against the rules, no.
    freedom of expression, I m fine with that but don 't hate me and stop threatening to ban me by private messages if I expose what you call quoted comments as homophobic, have a good long weekend!
    Last edited by Aline et Valcour; 1st September 2007 at 06:05 PM.

  26. #26

    Default Re: Perfume culture = gay culture ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aline et Valcour View Post
    freedom of expression, I m fine with that but don 't hate me if I expose what you call quoted comments as homophobic, have a good long weekend!
    I think members and readers will consider the source when you do.
    That girl, that bottle, that mattress and me.

  27. #27

    Default Re: Perfume culture = gay culture ?

    Quote Originally Posted by DustB View Post
    I think members and readers will consider the source when you do.
    finally we agree because they should, they shouldn 't rely on biased moderation or me to have an idea of what is what.



    EDIT: I re-read ZZ 's post, the whole context was NOT homophobic, I apologize but man DustB and ZZ it 's solid, you two...uh? lol
    Last edited by Aline et Valcour; 1st September 2007 at 06:26 PM.

  28. #28
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    Default Re: Perfume culture = gay culture ?

    Luca Turin likes gay people and has spent massive amounts of time working around them. The quote from the book, while verbatim, is actually fragmented and ultimately taken out of context if you understand the bigger picture. If you asked Turin what he actually meant you'd get something extremely different. I see no purpose in perpetuating this kind of thread (they never amount to anything) but I'm sure people will.

  29. #29

    Default Re: Perfume culture = gay culture ?

    Well, to label ZZ as homophobic is a little hypocritical if you ask me. Perhaps I am wrong, but I think ZZ was QUESTIONING the logic in the referenced article. I read his questions to be sarcastic, not literal.

    TNMA
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  30. #30

    Default Re: Perfume culture = gay culture ?

    Quote Originally Posted by pluran View Post
    Luca Turin likes gay people and has spent massive amounts of time working around them. The quote from the book, while verbatim, is actually fragmented and ultimately taken out of context if you understand the bigger picture. If you asked Turin what he actually meant you'd get something extremely different. I see no purpose in perpetuating this kind of thread (they never amount to anything) but I'm sure people will.
    There is a link to the whole page to get the whole context. You have read the book so perhaps you can tell us whether Luca Turin means differently or not.

    This thread is about two distinct questions: Does being gay promotes creativity in perfumery? & Are there any gay perfumers?. Nothing more, nothing less . Only mikeperez and a few others answered with a modicum of understanding of the issue at hand. Mikeperez's indepth answer provided a lot of insight (for me atleast) as did Luca Turins' original comments, which when stripped of their biting humor, states the discrimination which gay perfumers faced in the french perfume industry and actually advocates their creativity. My own personal opinion is that sometimes gay perfumers can bring an "outside the box" thinking which can create disruptive change in the industry. I have known for a long time that Tom Ford is gay, and I sure as hell enjoy almost all the perfumes he has directed. Ofcourse perfumers dont have to be gay to be creative .. a "hetero" perfumer who is very much intune with current trends and has inculcated a creative bend within himself or his team can bring drastic change and innovation to the industry.

    Aline et Valcour, or should I say bois et musc/voyegueruse imaginaire, the only homophobia going on is (was?) in the perfume industry of the land of the Les Bleus. I appreciate your incessant quoting of mikeperez's half page answer .. as always, your posts are a pleasure to read and promote discussion :wave:
    Last edited by zztopp; 1st September 2007 at 06:29 PM.
    -

  31. #31

    Default Re: Perfume culture = gay culture ?

    Quote Originally Posted by thenmarcher View Post
    Well, to label ZZ as homophobic is a little hypocritical if you ask me. Perhaps I am wrong, but I think ZZ was QUESTIONING the logic in the referenced article. I read his questions to be sarcastic, not literal.

    TNMA
    I already apologized! I made the mistake to partially read his post.
    --------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by zztopp View Post
    There is a link to the whole page to get the whole context. You have read the book so perhaps you can tell us whether Luca Turin means differently or not.

    This thread is about two distinct questions: Does being gay promotes creativity in perfumery? & Are there any gay perfumers?. Nothing more, nothing less . Only mikeperez and a few others answered with a modicum of understanding of the issue at hand. Mikeperez's indepth answer provided a lot of insight (for me atleast) as did Luca Turins' original comments, which when stripped of their biting humor, states the discrimination which gay perfumers faced in the french perfume industry and actually advocates their creativity. My own personal opinion is that sometimes gay perfumers can bring an "outside the box" thinking which can create disruptive change in the industry. I have known for a long time that Tom Ford is gay, and I sure as hell enjoy almost all the perfumes he has directed. Ofcourse perfumers dont have to be gay to be creative .. a "hetero" perfumer who is very much intune with current trends and has inculcated a creative bend within himself or his team can bring drastic change and innovation to the industry.

    Aline et Valcour, or should I say bois et musc/voyegueruse imaginaire, the only homophobia going on is (was?) in the perfume industry of the land of the Les Bleus. I appreciate your incessant quoting of mikeperez's half page answer .. as always, your posts are a pleasure to read and promote discussion :wave:

    I 'll answer that too then! it doesn 't mean anything to label people as gay perfumer. what does it mean? you hang out to gay bars and clubs or that you commit homosexual acts with men, so many men have different definitions of what they do is "gay" or "straight".

    ZZ it 's not voyegueruse[/I] imaginaire but Voyageuse Imaginaire
    Last edited by DustB; 1st September 2007 at 07:34 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  32. #32
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    Default Re: Perfume culture = gay culture ?

    Quote Originally Posted by zztopp View Post
    You have read the book so perhaps you can tell us whether Luca Turin means differently or not.
    I like the passage you used. It's provocative and I couldn't figure it out myself when I first read it. Typical of his genius mentality he says all sorts of stuff that will be misunderstood. Reading the book (and even moreso his reviews from the last twenty years) just provides clarity that he's a highly evolved guy who understands that the mass mind needs its Faustian introverts, its oddballs, kooks, and deviants; its internationalists, cross-cultural floaters, homosexuals, cosmopolitans, explorers, and imagineers, those who extend their reach beyond old boundaries and open new frontiers. I'm definitely not part of the mainstream, and while what he said is interesting, I just don't care what he thinks about gay people and their influence on the perfume industry. I only care about reading his unique perceptions of fragrances. It's like anything of quality, I often don't care where it came from as long as it's what I want.

    For what it's worth, I believe Chandler Burr (Turin's friend, and the author of the book) is gay.
    Last edited by pluran; 1st September 2007 at 09:57 PM.

  33. #33

    Default Re: Perfume culture = gay culture ?

    Oh shit, I'm gay! How am I going to tell my dad?
    - Rich
    As always, disregard most of what I say. It's not worth your heart health to actually worry about what a 23 year old guy from Kansas thinks. Even if he is really ridiculously good looking.

  34. #34

    Default Re: Perfume culture = gay culture ?

    Perfume is mostly gay, i totally agree with this article.

    -The nicknames of Basenoters are set to be pink by the admin.
    The bag i get, when i buy perfume in a shop, is always pink. (Ici Paris XL)
    Now don't say pink isn't gay.
    Most straight guys will quickly smell some perfumes in a shop, and rush out to not get seen. This is no joke and a real phenomena. I guess they don't want people to think they are gay...

    -Whenever you mention that you want a manly perfume on this forum, you are guaranteed to get a bad reaction. (check my topic "Hard choice to make..")
    It's a fact to me that most Basenoters here are gay or at least fashion freak weirdos, with the exception of some guys.

    -Some perfume names really scream gay to me. Angel Men? Lolita Empicka? Enough said. Also most of the not-niche perfumes are way to floral and not manly at all.
    The best example in this category is Fleur Du Male.
    To me, Angel Men even smells like old women, but that can be just me.

    As a straight guy, i would never ever tell my friends i like perfumes and own some bottles of it. I wouldn't mention this forum for sure. What does that say about perfume? This is ofcourse more personal so dont say now im homophobe or something like that. I'm sure some straight guys don't make a secret out of it. But i'm sure i'm not the only guy like this.

    To make things short: Everyone who denies that fashion and perfume are mostly gay, is either gay or brainwashed.

    There should be an option on Basenotes where you can pick your sexuality, so it can be seen in your profile. I am very sure that you would see differences between what gays like and what straight people like.

  35. #35
    DON'T DRINK AND DRESS

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    Default Re: Perfume culture = gay culture ?

    Yeah..how 'bout them Chicago Bears, eh?
    'Those who grow too big for their pants will be exposed in the end'--anon

  36. #36

    Default Re: Perfume culture = gay culture ?

    Quote Originally Posted by JBL View Post
    Perfume is mostly gay, i totally agree with this article.

    -The nicknames of Basenoters are set to be pink by the admin.
    The bag i get, when i buy perfume in a shop, is always pink. (Ici Paris XL)
    Now don't say pink isn't gay.
    Most straight guys will quickly smell some perfumes in a shop, and rush out to not get seen. This is no joke and a real phenomena. I guess they don't want people to think they are gay...

    -Whenever you mention that you want a manly perfume on this forum, you are guaranteed to get a bad reaction. (check my topic "Hard choice to make..")
    It's a fact to me that most Basenoters here are gay or at least fashion freak weirdos, with the exception of some guys.

    -Some perfume names really scream gay to me. Angel Men? Lolita Empicka? Enough said. Also most of the not-niche perfumes are way to floral and not manly at all.
    The best example in this category is Fleur Du Male.
    To me, Angel Men even smells like old women, but that can be just me.

    As a straight guy, i would never ever tell my friends i like perfumes and own some bottles of it. I wouldn't mention this forum for sure. What does that say about perfume? This is ofcourse more personal so dont say now im homophobe or something like that. I'm sure some straight guys don't make a secret out of it. But i'm sure i'm not the only guy like this.

    To make things short: Everyone who denies that fashion and perfume are mostly gay, is either gay or brainwashed.

    There should be an option on Basenotes where you can pick your sexuality, so it can be seen in your profile. I am very sure that you would see differences between what gays like and what straight people like.
    Hey, maybe you get a pink bag because the sales assistant thinks your gay. Mine are always blue or red .
    Seriously, I do hope you're just young and still have a lot to learn about the world, because your reasoning is based on rather uninformed generalizations with very little empirical foundation.

    bag color - that would depend on the store you buy at.

    pink for supporters - aw, get serious.

    men rushing in and out - well, there may be certain societies and sub-cultures within them that consider perfume effeminate. Maybe your average Larry Craig voter in Idaho (just kidding) has a problem hanging around the Sephora, but this is certainly not true, say for, German-Turkish macho youths in Germany, who love to hang around the perfumery and check out manly scents. Region, class, culture can all play into this.

    manly scent discussions. I think the issue here tends to be that of smugly sticking scents into compartments at a loss of appreciating them as individual creations. Plus the fact that labels such a manly, despite certain traditions etc., are subject to highly divergent interpretations.

    most basenoters gay. Because of discussions like this, some members come around to pointing out that they are gay in the context of an argument, while straight BNers rarely make a point of their heterosexuality. You're turning this into a gay BN majority because...well, why? do you feel uncomfortable about a gay presence here, perhaps?

    florals, unmanly perfumes. Well, maybe you should just forget about these arbitrary categories of yours and try to broaden your horizon a little. Perfume has a history. Men have traditionally worn florals, e.g. rose, classic colognes were never gendered, you are suffering from tunnel vision. You're entitled to that, but don't mistake your prejudices for universal maxims.

    If you have a problem with talkin about your love of perfume because of fear of being branded as gay, you/you're environment is homophobe, that's what the word means.

    There are many gay designers. There are also many black athletes. What conclusions do you draw from this? It's easy to fall into the trap of essentializing such observations (all gay people have an artistic sense, all blacks have strong bodies, all jews are good with money etc. pp.). That's the road to bigotry. Please remember: sexual preference or skin color or gender does not determine your entire identity. Guess what: You can be gay and hate Le Male. You can be straight and love Le Male. I've got to get some sleep now.
    My Wardrobe
    II est de forts parfums pour qui toute matičre/Est poreuse. On dirait qu'ils pénčtrent le verre.

  37. #37

    Default Re: Perfume culture = gay culture ?

    Quote Originally Posted by JBL View Post
    Perfume is mostly gay, i totally agree with this article.

    -The nicknames of Basenoters are set to be pink by the admin.
    The bag i get, when i buy perfume in a shop, is always pink. (Ici Paris XL)
    Now don't say pink isn't gay.
    Most straight guys will quickly smell some perfumes in a shop, and rush out to not get seen. This is no joke and a real phenomena. I guess they don't want people to think they are gay...

    -Whenever you mention that you want a manly perfume on this forum, you are guaranteed to get a bad reaction. (check my topic "Hard choice to make..")
    It's a fact to me that most Basenoters here are gay or at least fashion freak weirdos, with the exception of some guys.

    -Some perfume names really scream gay to me. Angel Men? Lolita Empicka? Enough said. Also most of the not-niche perfumes are way to floral and not manly at all.
    The best example in this category is Fleur Du Male.
    To me, Angel Men even smells like old women, but that can be just me.

    As a straight guy, i would never ever tell my friends i like perfumes and own some bottles of it. I wouldn't mention this forum for sure. What does that say about perfume? This is ofcourse more personal so dont say now im homophobe or something like that. I'm sure some straight guys don't make a secret out of it. But i'm sure i'm not the only guy like this.

    To make things short: Everyone who denies that fashion and perfume are mostly gay, is either gay or brainwashed.

    There should be an option on Basenotes where you can pick your sexuality, so it can be seen in your profile. I am very sure that you would see differences between what gays like and what straight people like.
    Good satire. I especially love how you so closely followed the close mindedness of the stereotypical jock/overly masculine male.

    Seriously, WHAT DOES IT MATTER IF YOU ARE GAY OR STRAIGHT?
    I'm personally still going to buy it in the end, even if the perfumer was straight, bi, or gay. Shoot, I'd buy perfume from an orangutan if it smelled good. As long as he was straight. I don't mix with gay orangutans. No way, no how.
    - Rich
    As always, disregard most of what I say. It's not worth your heart health to actually worry about what a 23 year old guy from Kansas thinks. Even if he is really ridiculously good looking.

  38. #38

    Default Re: Perfume culture = gay culture ?

    edited by Paul G

    No politics
    Last edited by Paul G; 2nd September 2007 at 03:40 PM.
    "Don’t try to be original. Be simple. Be good technically, and if there is something in you, it will come out. ” - Henri Matisse.

    "Wear R de Capucci" - Hirch Duckfinder

    reviews

  39. #39

    Default Re: Perfume culture = gay culture ?

    Originally Posted by JBL
    Perfume is mostly gay, i totally agree with this article.

    "The nicknames of Basenoters are set to be pink by the admin."

    the effin nicknames are magenta. do a google search for elvis's pink cadillac if you don't believe me.

    we're all pink inside. look closely

    Last edited by fredricktoo; 2nd September 2007 at 08:42 AM.

  40. #40

    Default Re: Perfume culture = gay culture ?

    Pink (T-) shirts were something new when first worn by young gay men. That happened together with the European coming out- and Pride movements in Europe. Ever heard of Rosa von Praunheim ? He was one of the motivators and organizers of the militant protesters in the 80s & 90s, and serious matters were at the bottom of this. Until 1970-80..., gays have been criminals officially, but - within limits - homosexual acts between consenting adults were tolerated in most of Europe. The Hitler era was a period of re-armament and war. Tolerance was next to zero. Gay inmates of the infamous Nazi Konzentrationslager were specially marked with a triangular pink piece of cloth on their uniforms. The present suggestion to set basenoters' aka's (all, or selected ones ?) in pink, ridiculous as it is, recalls those shadows of the past, including forced coming-outs (denunciations) later. I really thought that door had been shut forever, except in eastern Europe and Russia. Pink has become a general trend in 2005-06, and has also been absorbed by the public now. Even girls wear pink again...
    Are there still people who never saw a single sequence of modern American TV series? In less than ten years 'Sex in the City' or 'Queer Eye for the Straight Guy' (plus the internet!) have caused more changes in our various societies than the end of the Cold War !

    Turin didn't like Gaultier' s Male? Well, he too may have changed over time - he wrote a very friendly review about Fleurs du Male recently. If he found it worth discussing in the nineties that gay fashion designers are mainly responsible for styles we wear - well, that at least is a fact! I don't know who inspires Boss' suits, shoes etc. - but I really know of no leading fashion house in Europe, which became successful without their well known (gay) designers. Versace himself became a wanted export - and got killed (the darker aspect of the package). All of this seems to be have ultimately been accepted by society. D & G are extremely successful with the young crowd here and everywhere. And that usually extends to colognes people choose. Whoever may have actually designed those - it remains to be a decision of the house (directors, chief designers) what will be released, and what not. I myself am an ordinary person and wear Diors and Armanis via their frags mostly. But I have no problems finding my (nameless) clothes, usually more than I have time to wear. I feel nothing like a 'dictatorship' here, and I cannot imagine Turin really meant that.

    Why did nobody prefer to discuss Alpona, or the perfumes Turin was to present to the public? They are in that same excerpt, but for whatever reason nobody is inclined to talk perfume here. In comparison to what LT may have said about it, Alpona isn't just underrated by the gay crowd of our days, it's almost ignored by basenoters of any color! Fine exceptions are manifest within those seven reviews of the directory.
    Last edited by narcus; 2nd September 2007 at 03:21 PM.
    'Il mondo dei profumi č un universo senza limiti: una fraganza puo rievocare sensazioni, luoghi, persone o ancora condurre in uno spazio di nuove dimensioni emozionali' L. V.

  41. #41

    Default Re: Perfume culture = gay culture ?

    I'm straight and I love perfume.

    I also love cars, soccer, beer, wristwatches and... women( in all sorts and sizes, niche and designer)

    Oh, and I love Pink!! I think she's a great performer.

    Pheww! That felt good...guess I'm out of the closet now.
    Last edited by eric; 2nd September 2007 at 01:18 PM.

  42. #42

    Default Re: Perfume culture = gay culture ?

    We've had one banning and a few irate PMs from people. Sorry this thread has run its course.

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