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  1. #31

    Default Re: Look at what these anti-Angel scare artists are up to now...

    The plot thickens... Turns out that in January of this year, the NTEF was ordered to pay Clarins USA $77,581 in legal fees and costs after a court found the NTEF's original claims (where the plantiff claimed to have been permanently disabled by Angel). The court also ruled that the allegations were without merit. (You can read more here.)

    But the NTEF isn't done yet... they're going to release "the real reason" they're exclusively targeting Clarins "within the next 120 days". I'll be interested to see what kind of hogwash they pump out then...
    "It always seems impossible until it's done." -Nelson Mandela

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  2. #32

    Default Re: Look at what these anti-Angel scare artists are up to now...

    Well, that organization's website looks really dodgy - not just the bad design, and the seeming obsession with Clarins, and the hysterical erratic tone of many of the commentaries, but there's no "About Us" page!

    However, I'm always really surprised at how so many of you guys/gals are ready to just laugh off any concern about ingredients in perfumes. How many of you who laughed off the whole subject even looked at that website first, or even looked at any of the articles about Coumarin?

    Some of the articles are just hysterics, but some are links to more reputable websites, science magazines, news articles etc. One of the articles linked to on the site is titled "Even Very Low Levels Of Lead Cause Brain Damage In Children. The toxicity of lead isn't controversial anymore, and I wouldn't imagine any of you dismissing it, but I can just imagine if there had been internet forums in 500 B.C. alot of you would have guffawing and laughing it up about the wacky claims that lead-lining in wine carafes is causing retardation in children, chronic fatigue and and premature death in adults, and complaining at how these crazy anti-lead maniacs just want to steal all our life's pleasures!

    There's another article linked to on that site " L’Oreal High On Leaded Lipstick List. " about there being 5 times as much lead in many women's lipsticks as is allowed by the FDA. Is that something to laugh off also? Companies tend to be allowed to put toxic crap in products like lipstick or toothpaste which are not meant to be eaten, even though, especially with lipstick, for practical purposes people are basically eating them - since most of it gets licked off.

    The fact is that we live in a world where most of what we buy comes from giant corporations who do not give a labratory rat's crap about our health. They'll put whatever they can get away with in their products. Alot of these chemicals have not been tested in depth, and no one knows their effects in small amounts. I use all the same perfumees as the rest of you, but given the corproate environment we live in, to me the basic stance I take is that I take it seriously if a consumer rights organization or independent scientists make claims against them,

    And that wikipedia article on Coumarin doesn't make it sound particularly safe - just that it's less dangerous than wafarin! It even says " OSHA considers this compound to be only a lung-specific carcinogen..." and that it's been banned for all kinds of uses! I mean frankly, I have no idea whether it's dangerous or not in perfumes, but why just laugh everything off automatically?

    Again, I don't have much faith in what that woman's website says (that organization is just one woman by the way) but still, I don't understand why people so automatically dismiss the slightest suggestions that all these weird chemicals we use every day might be dangerous,
    CAESAR SEEKS:
    Parfums d'Empire: Fougére Bengale

    CAESAR SWAPS/SELLS:
    Sa Majesté La Rose


    Currently wearing: Yatagan by Caron

  3. #33

    Default Re: Look at what these anti-Angel scare artists are up to now...

    Quote Originally Posted by GAIVS IVLIVS CAESAR View Post
    However, I'm always really surprised at how so many of you guys/gals are ready to just laugh off any concern about ingredients in perfumes. How many of you who laughed off the whole subject even looked at that website first, or even looked at any of the articles about Coumarin?

    Some of the articles are just hysterics, but some are links to more reputable websites, science magazines, news articles etc. One of the articles linked to on the site is titled "Even Very Low Levels Of Lead Cause Brain Damage In Children. The toxicity of lead isn't controversial anymore, and I wouldn't imagine any of you dismissing it, but I can just imagine if there had been internet forums in 500 B.C. alot of you would have guffawing and laughing it up about the wacky claims that lead-lining in wine carafes is causing retardation in children, chronic fatigue and and premature death in adults, and complaining at how these crazy anti-lead maniacs just want to steal all our life's pleasures!
    Whether lead is dangerous is irrelevant to whether coumarin is dangerous. For what it is worth, however, the lead-poisoning-led-to-the-fall-of-Rome theory is not universally accepted. Apparently, contemporary sources knew that lead was dangerous. See, for example, http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/...poisoning.html

    A premise of basic logic is that the person who is propounding an argument has the burden to prove his or her proposition. In this case, the propounder has produced no evidence that coumarin, in the amounts used in perfumes, used as perfumes are used, is sufficiently dangerous to be banned. For my part, I did do research on coumarin when the issue first came up, and made an informed decision to laugh off this idiotic concern.

  4. #34

    Default Re: Look at what these anti-Angel scare artists are up to now...

    Hey Advocate - do people really think lead caused the fall of Rome? I've never actually heard that! I know that lead lining was used in wine carafes in ancient greece.

    I was just using that as an analogy because people seem to react with mocking derision whenever anyone mentions a possible health hazard in perfume ingredients, before even looking at the evidence or arguments.

    Like I said, I don't take that woman's website seriously either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Advocate View Post
    Whether lead is dangerous is irrelevant to whether coumarin is dangerous. For what it is worth, however, the lead-poisoning-led-to-the-fall-of-Rome theory is not universally accepted. Apparently, contemporary sources knew that lead was dangerous. See, for example, http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/...poisoning.html

    A premise of basic logic is that the person who is propounding an argument has the burden to prove his or her proposition. In this case, the propounder has produced no evidence that coumarin, in the amounts used in perfumes, used as perfumes are used, is sufficiently dangerous to be banned. For my part, I did do research on coumarin when the issue first came up, and made an informed decision to laugh off this idiotic concern.
    CAESAR SEEKS:
    Parfums d'Empire: Fougére Bengale

    CAESAR SWAPS/SELLS:
    Sa Majesté La Rose


    Currently wearing: Yatagan by Caron

  5. #35
    Cow Tipper Extraordinaire

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    Default Re: Look at what these anti-Angel scare artists are up to now...

    Legume Family: Fabaceae

    Tonka Beans (Dipteryx odorata)

    Tonka beans: Dark, wrinkled seeds from Dipteryx odorata, a large tree from the rain forests of Brazil, Colombia and Venezuela. The seeds contain the fragrant phenolic compound coumarin which is used in perfumes and as a vanilla-like flavoring in ice creams, candy and pipe tobaccos. Coumarin is a double-ring phenolic compound that imparts the distinctive sweet smell to newly-mown hay. Although it enhances the flavor and aroma of tobaccos, coumarin has been shown to be carcinogenic when burned. Coumarin is also an anticoagulant that represses the synthesis of the protein prothrombin in the presence of vitamin K.
    These things cannot be long hidden: the Sun, the Moon, the Truth--Buddha

  6. #36

    Default Re: Look at what these anti-Angel scare artists are up to now...

    I recall back in the late 90's this same crap was happening to Eternity. People that don't like strong perfume make a vendetta against it. The sad part is it’s the people that take a mega bath in these fragrances that stir the pot. Point in case a woman in my office must jump into a big vat of Angel and take a bath in it. The entire building just reeks once she steps in the door once can just imagine the amount of money it must cost her in the bottle she must go through– it’s hideous and sad at the same time!

  7. #37

    Default Re: Look at what these anti-Angel scare artists are up to now...

    Quote Originally Posted by kbe View Post
    Legume Family: Fabaceae

    Tonka Beans (Dipteryx odorata)

    Tonka beans: Dark, wrinkled seeds from Dipteryx odorata, a large tree from the rain forests of Brazil, Colombia and Venezuela. The seeds contain the fragrant phenolic compound coumarin which is used in perfumes and as a vanilla-like flavoring in ice creams, candy and pipe tobaccos. Coumarin is a double-ring phenolic compound that imparts the distinctive sweet smell to newly-mown hay. Although it enhances the flavor and aroma of tobaccos, coumarin has been shown to be carcinogenic when burned. Coumarin is also an anticoagulant that represses the synthesis of the protein prothrombin in the presence of vitamin K.
    I have never burned my perfumes, not even Angel.

    These hysterical people with fax machines give themselves a concerned sounding or scienticic name and send out authoritative proclamations to the papers. I try to avoid worrying about crap like this and wish these people would stop trying to save me from everything I enjoy.

    I googled the chick who started this BS and it seems she also tried to blame the formaldehyde in the science class cadavers for her permanent disablity, and she is refusing to pay off her student loans. Seems she is a professional plaintiff.
    Last edited by Zibeline; 15th January 2008 at 04:30 AM.

  8. #38

    Default Re: Look at what these anti-Angel scare artists are up to now...

    Zibeline, your post intrigued me, so I did some more research.

    The President of the National Toxic Encephalopathy Foundation is Angel De Fazio, also known as Michelle De Fazio. http://www.cosmeticsdesign.com/news/...ins-ntef-legal

    In October, 2004, she filed suit against Clarins, claiming that a single spray of Angel left her permanently disabled. The court dismissed her case in 2007, found her guilty of bad faith, and ordered to pay over $77,000 to Clarins in costs, fees, and sanctions. http://www.cosmeticsdesign.com/news/...ins-ntef-legal

    Also, in 2006, she publicized her intent to name Clarins and Nordstrom's in a divorce action, claiming $15,000,000 damages. I can not tell from her press release whether this is a separate lawsuit from the one above, or whether she ever actually filed it, or how she calculated her damages at fifteen million dollars. http://pressreleasesonline.biz/pr/Cl...rce_Action.php

    You are correct that this is not the first time that she has claimed that someone has left her disabled. Before the spray heard 'round the world, she claimed that her school "poisoned" her because she inhaled formalin. http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:Me90P_QiDVIJ:www.accert.org/Angel,%2520President%2520of%2520NTEF,%2520Pariah%2 520Interview.pdf+national+toxic+encephalopathy+fou ndation+%22angel+de+fazio%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=8&gl =us&client=firefox-a

    Yet the edifice continues to crumble. She claimed that the school "poisoned" her in 1996. She claimed that Clarins and Nordstrom's "assaulted" her some point after that. But, she claims that her toxic encephalopathy was diagnosed in 1991 -- before either alleged causation event! http://www.anma.com/underfir.html

    Finally, I was intrigued that she signs her press releases as "Angel De Fazio, B.Sc., A.T." http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache...ient=firefox-a

    Wow, what could that obscure honorific after her name possibly mean? She sure must be qualified, musn't she? Well, it means Bachelor of Science in Athletic Training. http://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/BSAT

    Incidentally, Cropwatch has this to say about Angel De Fazio: "It gets worse. The article further treats us to listings of fragrance chemicals supposedly contained in Angel perfume with their alleged health risks, but the author does not seem to understand the difference between hazard and risk, or that toxicity is dose-related. In this context a clear cut case of health risk from Angel perfume has not been presented, period. Further, many of the substances mentioned above are common ingredients of perfumes and/or essential oils, and are not unique to Angel perfume." It would appear to me that Cropwatch would have a vested interest in joining a crusade to ban something if a straight-faced argument could possibly be made. http://www.aromaconnection.org/2007/...n-ntef-an.html
    Last edited by Advocate; 15th January 2008 at 10:34 PM. Reason: Additional citations

  9. #39
    Brielle87's Avatar
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    Default Re: Look at what these anti-Angel scare artists are up to now...

    Well here is the "science for laypeople" description of coumarin:
    Coumarin is often found in tobacco products and artificial vanilla substitutes, though it has been banned as a food additive in numerous countries since the mid-20th century because it is moderately toxic to the liver and kidneys, with an LD50 of 275 mg/kg - low compared to related compounds. Although only somewhat dangerous to humans, coumarin is a potent rodenticide: rats and other rodents largely metabolize it to 3,4-coumarin epoxide, a toxic compound that can cause internal hemorrhage and death. Humans largely metabolize it to 7-hydroxycoumarin, a compound of lower toxicity.


    It does not phase me; I would feel safer soaking in a vat of ANGEL for 3 days, than breathing the air around me. I feel I would fare better with ANGEL, than with the overall air quality.
    I am so sickened by all of these crusaders, I can hardly wait till they find their next cause.

    Before anyone gets all upset about coumarin, they should look up most of the ingredients and preservatives in their food.
    I have terrible asthma, and sodium-metabithsulfite (a common preservative) can bring on a deadly asthma attack. You don't see anyone suing all the major food-producers to have this ingredient removed, nor do you see anyone raising the roof over MSG (mono-sodium glutamate) which also causes issues.

    Lets not be fussy about what can kill us, most things in the modern world could cause health problems.
    Quand on boit l'eau, il faut penser à sa source

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