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  1. #31

    Default Re: Mitsouko Lovers will either love me or hate me for this...

    Quote Originally Posted by mastorer View Post
    There is one small problem with a true return to classic chypre perfumes, purplebird 7. A defining note in any classic chypre is oakmoss absolute. Perfumers have their hands tied when it comes to using this delightful ingredient. The Powers That Be have declared it taboo for being an allergen to some people. One more time the masses of people who have absolutely NO problems with it must bend to those few who do. The same is true for orris absolute. Wouldn't a sane person think that simply a statement of contents would suffice? But no, everyone must pay. Even though our grandparents did just fine with oakmoss, orris and many other wonderful things in both men's and women's fragrances. As a perfumer, this pisses me off. We do have synthetic oakmoss, but it really doesn't hold a candle to the real thing. I hope that this collaboration of Molinard with Aedes is blatantly breaking the "rules."
    Put me down as a great fan of Mitsouko, btw ;-)
    ...Michael Storer


    Michael, do you happen to know how or whether the regulation of oakmoss is enforced? I've heard that oakmoss of a certain percentage is still acceptable and also that compliance with the ban is voluntary. The recently released Lubin and Miller Harris' L'Air de Rien contain oakmoss, so it seems like niche lines are still doing their own thing to a certain extent.

    The regulations are so bizarre. I can understand how frustrating it would be for a perfumer.

    (I'm looking forward to trying your fragrances, by the way : ). And I'm very excited about this new Mitsouko-like fragrance.

  2. #32
    mastorer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mitsouko Lovers will either love me or hate me for this...

    Dear Minou2 et al,

    A very good question. Actually, except for ever more complex European Common Market labeling laws, to my knowledge most all of the 'rules' of what is allowed and what isn't are dictated by IFRA (International Fragrance Association), which is a self-governing body. Since most (or all) small niche houses are not members of IFRA, our usage (or levels of usage) of IFRA restricted substances is on our own shoulders. For instance, I have no one looking over my compounding ready to penalize me for using a ton of oakmoss or orris root, or whatever else I choose. IFRA studies such things as number of incidents of allergic reaction among the population in general and makes recommendations or rulings on "safe usage levels" as to percentage of the material allowed in the fragrance concentrate (if at all). We non-member niche perfumers try to follow those guidelines, too, as we have no statistics to dispute their findings. Having said that, many perfumers complain that IFRA has grown rabidly cautious in the last ten years or so and runs frightened because their idea is to self-govern to keep the law-makers from stepping in and perhaps exerting even tighter controls.

    If I overstep the bounds of IFRA I'm taking a risk that I will run into allergic reactions among my customers. Since I have no statistics to follow, I have no idea how big that risk would be. Having said that, our parents consumed a lot of oakmoss, etc. in fragrances of old, so I suspect the risk is not really that high. In fact, I may come out with a fragrance using real oakmoss, perhaps judiciously mixed 50% with synthetic. This is actually a great advantage that niche perfumers have. We haven't taken an oath to uphold IFRA's rules so have the leeway to reintroduce more of the fragrance notes of yesteryear. One's own conscience as an artisan selling to the public is the only limit-setter, but it's a responsibility I for one take seriously. If you're interested, IFRA has a website. There is some information you can read without being a member. Go to: http://www.ifraorg.org
    MICHAEL STORER fine niche perfumery for the individualist
    www.michaelstorer.com

  3. #33
    Dependent pluran's Avatar
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    Exclamation Re: Mitsouko Lovers will either love me or hate me for this...

    According to Luca Turin it's actually tree moss, not oakmoss, that is responsible for most of the allergies.

    See the third paragraph:

    http://www.nzzfolio.ch/www/21b625ad-...672b2bac9.aspx

    ----------------------

    Many designer and niche houses as well as individual perfumers still use all the oakmoss they need. There is no such thing as synthetic oakmoss.

    Last edited by pluran; 18th December 2007 at 07:34 AM.

  4. #34

    Default Re: Mitsouko Lovers will either love me or hate me for this...

    Quote Originally Posted by mastorer View Post
    Dear Minou2 et al,

    A very good question. Actually, except for ever more complex European Common Market labeling laws, to my knowledge most all of the 'rules' of what is allowed and what isn't are dictated by IFRA (International Fragrance Association), which is a self-governing body. Since most (or all) small niche houses are not members of IFRA, our usage (or levels of usage) of IFRA restricted substances is on our own shoulders. For instance, I have no one looking over my compounding ready to penalize me for using a ton of oakmoss or orris root, or whatever else I choose. IFRA studies such things as number of incidents of allergic reaction among the population in general and makes recommendations or rulings on "safe usage levels" as to percentage of the material allowed in the fragrance concentrate (if at all). We non-member niche perfumers try to follow those guidelines, too, as we have no statistics to dispute their findings. Having said that, many perfumers complain that IFRA has grown rabidly cautious in the last ten years or so and runs frightened because their idea is to self-govern to keep the law-makers from stepping in and perhaps exerting even tighter controls.

    If I overstep the bounds of IFRA I'm taking a risk that I will run into allergic reactions among my customers. Since I have no statistics to follow, I have no idea how big that risk would be. Having said that, our parents consumed a lot of oakmoss, etc. in fragrances of old, so I suspect the risk is not really that high. In fact, I may come out with a fragrance using real oakmoss, perhaps judiciously mixed 50% with synthetic. This is actually a great advantage that niche perfumers have. We haven't taken an oath to uphold IFRA's rules so have the leeway to reintroduce more of the fragrance notes of yesteryear. One's own conscience as an artisan selling to the public is the only limit-setter, but it's a responsibility I for one take seriously. If you're interested, IFRA has a website. There is some information you can read without being a member. Go to: http://www.ifraorg.org


    Michael, thank you for taking the time to explain this and for the ifraorg link. It really helps clarify the issue for me. I agree it's a possible opportunity for niche perfumers, which I think is great.

  5. #35

    Default Re: Mitsouko Lovers will either love me or hate me for this...

    I cannot stand the nanny state world we now live in, where something that causes an allergy is taken out of everything, rather than people being clearly warned, and it being left at that. If it makes you itch, avoid it, use something else. That would be simpler and far less restrictive to everyone not affected. I know this isn't terribly PC of me, but I really have had a gutful of being told not to do this, eat that, touch that, walk there, in case some terrible harm may befall me and the Corporation responsible be sued. Why does everything have to be dumbed down, diluted, cushioned and cocooned? What a boring world this is turning into.
    "I don't know the key to success,
    but the key to failure is trying to please everybody."
    Bill Cosby

  6. #36

    Default Re: Mitsouko Lovers will either love me or hate me for this...

    Quote Originally Posted by mastorer View Post
    Dear Minou2 et al,
    IFRA (International Fragrance Association), which is a self-governing body....
    If I overstep the bounds of IFRA I'm taking a risk that I will run into allergic reactions among my customers....I may come out with a fragrance using real oakmoss, perhaps judiciously mixed 50% with synthetic.
    Whatever happened to the option of putting a warning label on the perfume that it contains allergens? Would that remove your liability for a reaction?
    I hate to see a 50/50 product when the inclusion of any oakmoss would "violate" the safety requirement. Might as well use the real thing all the way.
    I believe that you are correct in assuming that oakmoss as safe as other ingredients. The IFRA is also trying to regulate citrus, and we peel oranges and lemons every day with our hands. Grocery stores are not frightened of lawsuits because the owners and managers are completely unaware of the "danger" of citrus peels.
    One more issue, and I will drop the natural vs synthetic topic because it can be a hot button for people: allergies are not the only risk with aromachemicals, many chemicals can expose the wearer to other problems, and it is impossible to test everything for every adverse reaction. Hair dye is a case in point, and it is booming in popularity.

  7. #37

    Wink Re: Mitsouko Lovers will either love me or hate me for this...

    Quote Originally Posted by purplebird7 View Post
    Whatever happened to the option of putting a warning label on the perfume that it contains allergens? Would that remove your liability for a reaction?
    I hate to see a 50/50 product when the inclusion of any oakmoss would "violate" the safety requirement. Might as well use the real thing all the way.
    I believe that you are correct in assuming that oakmoss as safe as other ingredients. The IFRA is also trying to regulate citrus, and we peel oranges and lemons every day with our hands. Grocery stores are not frightened of lawsuits because the owners and managers are completely unaware of the "danger" of citrus peels.
    One more issue, and I will drop the natural vs synthetic topic because it can be a hot button for people: allergies are not the only risk with aromachemicals, many chemicals can expose the wearer to other problems, and it is impossible to test everything for every adverse reaction. Hair dye is a case in point, and it is booming in popularity.
    It can be a hot button and I want to apologise if my earlier rant about such things offended anyone. Most of the time, I let these things ride over me, but I was having a frustrating day at work and took it out on the perfume industry and the 'nanny' world as a whole. I'm *much* calmer now, and I intend to dye my hair this evening, with a dye that's probably full of very very dangerous chemicals. :-)
    "I don't know the key to success,
    but the key to failure is trying to please everybody."
    Bill Cosby

  8. #38

    Default Re: Mitsouko Lovers will either love me or hate me for this...

    Clemmine, no offense taken. None at all.
    I didn't even think of that.
    Hair dye packaging includes clear instructions to test the product on one's skin before using a full application. And none of the manufacturers seems the least bit afraid to sell its products.
    By the way, I tried hair dye, and the peroxide and chemicals caused my scalp to feel like it was on fire. I do not dye my hair.
    But why don't perfumers use the same tactics?
    Clearly label their products as containing all-natural oakmoss and include instructions to skin test first. It seems to keep the hair-dye manufacturers safe from liability, and their sales certainly aren't suffering.

  9. #39
    zatarain's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mitsouko Lovers will either love me or hate me for this...

    It has been suggested, and seems likely, that there is financial incentive for the large corporations (stares at LVMH) to use synthetics. Of course it sounds better for them to say they are doing it for health and safety reasons.

    Don't mind me though, I'm a cynic.

    Will continue to "test" Mitsouko on my skin today.
    Behemoth cut a slice of pineapple, salted it, peppered it, ate it, and then tossed off a second glass of alcohol so dashingly that everyone applauded.

  10. #40

    Default Re: Mitsouko Lovers will either love me or hate me for this...

    Oh sure, that's the real reason. You bet.
    $$$$$
    That's one reason why I buy perfumes with natural ingredients.
    I want to support agricultural cultivation of perfume ingredients, not chemicals.

  11. #41

    Default Re: Mitsouko Lovers will either love me or hate me for this...

    Is it still possible to get in on this split? I am most interested!!!

  12. #42

    Default Re: Mitsouko Lovers will either love me or hate me for this...

    P.S.-
    Ths broad is HOT STUFF.
    And she's NICE...smart.
    [and a great hugger]
    Knows her frags !

  13. #43
    Kyra's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mitsouko Lovers will either love me or hate me for this...

    Bet you can all guess what I'll be up to tomorrow!

    Cheers!
    Sending BEMs scuttling back to Betelgeuse with my fierce fumage!
    http://community.basenotes.net/showthread.php?t=200749

  14. #44

    Default Re: Mitsouko Lovers will either love me or hate me for this...

    Oh please, report back immediately.

  15. #45

    Therese's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mitsouko Lovers will either love me or hate me for this...

    Wow. I haven't checked this thread since the initial excitement and Kyra's kind offer to mastermind the split. So much has happened. Bring on the oakmoss. Yes, Clemmie, I agree, print warnings. I cannot wait to try Un Histoire.

  16. #46

    Default Re: Mitsouko Lovers will either love me or hate me for this...

    A detail, Ladies, I realize now that Karl and Robert posted the release of this scent online, that my orginal spelling of Une (not Un) is correct.
    Silly me. Sorry.
    here's the link:


    http://www.aedes.com/product.php?product_id=2238
    "Like a lobster with a pearl in its claw, the beet held the jasmine firmly without crushing or obscuring it. Beet lifted jasmine, the way a bullnecked partner lifts a ballerina, and the pair came on stage on citron's fluty cue. As if jasmine were a collection of beautiful paintings, beet hung it in the galleries of the nose, insured it against fire or theft, threw a party to celebrate it. Citron mailed the invitations." Jitterbug Perfume by Tom Robbins p. 189

    What I am loving right now: Shalimar vintage extrait, Chanel Bois des Iles, Chanel no. 22, Le Labo Iris 39, Guerlain Iris Ganache

  17. #47
    Kyra's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mitsouko Lovers will either love me or hate me for this...

    For the lucky eleven waiting to hear, I don't think anyone will be dissapointed. Very much in the style of the virtually unobtainable Quadrille! Ur Chypre! And because I'm dearly fond of you all- I was able to overcome the temptation to take the most expensive bath of my life and enter a witness protection program.
    Sending BEMs scuttling back to Betelgeuse with my fierce fumage!
    http://community.basenotes.net/showthread.php?t=200749

  18. #48
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    Default Re: Mitsouko Lovers will either love me or hate me for this...



    Hmmm...whats that I sniff upon the winds from the West?
    The fragrance of flowers spreads only in the direction of the wind. But the goodness of a person spreads in all directions.
    Chanakya

  19. #49

    Default Re: Mitsouko Lovers will either love me or hate me for this...

    Yes indeed...they're quite happy to print warnings on cigarettes and products containing nuts...
    Personally I'm also sick of this nanny state - Britain sucks for that right now.
    My other interest is thrill rides and rollercoasters and the restrictions are getting ridiculous now. I was on holiday in Scandinavia this summer and in Denmark there was one park, aimed at families, that had this huge assault course-style treasure trail, mostly for kids, which was terrific fun. But you wouldn't get that in the UK because of stupid health and safety rules. When I was a kid, if we fell over or hurt ourselves we got a plaster and maybe a sweet to cheer us up, and no one looked for the nearest lawyer. Bah!

  20. #50

    Default Re: Mitsouko Lovers will either love me or hate me for this...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyra View Post
    For the lucky eleven waiting to hear, I don't think anyone will be dissapointed. Very much in the style of the virtually unobtainable Quadrille! Ur Chypre! And because I'm dearly fond of you all- I was able to overcome the temptation to take the most expensive bath of my life and enter a witness protection program.
    Need more description!
    What are dominant notes?
    Sweet/sour?
    Salty?
    Spicy?
    Dry/wet?
    Woody?
    Ambery?
    Mossy/Musty?
    Say more, dear woman.
    Last edited by purplebird7; 24th December 2007 at 01:42 PM.

  21. #51

    Default Re: Mitsouko Lovers will either love me or hate me for this...

    I won't hate you!
    And thank you for mentioning the scent, it sounds very interesting. I prefer the newer Mitsouko but i respect the older one too.

  22. #52

    Default Re: Mitsouko Lovers will either love me or hate me for this...

    Wow, that Kyra is FAAAASSSSST. I mean that in the best possible way, too. :-)

    My Ur Chypre arrived back here on the East Coast today! It is very potent, and very high quality. Lucky for me, the galbanum is a bit too much for me, so it will NOT replace Mitsouko in my affections (and will save me from pining further after a 'fume that is a very expensive limited edition, to boot -- that's the lucky part!)

    I will wear it and love it, but this split will be enough for me.

    Thanks so much for doing all the hack work, Kyra!!!

  23. #53
    DeeOlive's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mitsouko Lovers will either love me or hate me for this...

    my mailman won't be here till 4:30PM - and since rural delivery is sloooooooowwww - I prolly won't get my package till next week.
    The fragrance of flowers spreads only in the direction of the wind. But the goodness of a person spreads in all directions.
    Chanakya

  24. #54

    Default Re: Mitsouko Lovers will either love me or hate me for this...

    I so excited also, Rubele...
    It CAME !
    ME LIKEY !
    I'm a galbanum fool, what can I say.

    Kyra ROCKS in a SOCK !

    [BTW- Rubes- you and I should TALK about being fast....hehehe]

  25. #55
    DeeOlive's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mitsouko Lovers will either love me or hate me for this...

    Update - mailman arrived at 4:05 bearing a package!!!
    Thank you Kyra for the careful packaging, and the lovely presentation too.

    (And to Renee - for getting us hooked into this in the first place)

    Oh this is lush! Will now be silent and appreciate the scent wafting around me .
    The fragrance of flowers spreads only in the direction of the wind. But the goodness of a person spreads in all directions.
    Chanakya

  26. #56

    Therese's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mitsouko Lovers will either love me or hate me for this...

    Yes, my package awaited me after a hard work day. Oh, what delight! I cannot seem to pry my nose from my wrist! Kyra, thank you so very much for your hard work and difficult math! I am so happy!

  27. #57

    Default Re: Mitsouko Lovers will either love me or hate me for this...

    Whoa....amazing consistency from the USPS!!

  28. #58
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    Default Re: Mitsouko Lovers will either love me or hate me for this...

    The Force was with us today
    The fragrance of flowers spreads only in the direction of the wind. But the goodness of a person spreads in all directions.
    Chanakya

  29. #59

    Default Re: Mitsouko Lovers will either love me or hate me for this...

    Mine arrived today also, carefully packaged. Thank you Kyra. I hope that the recipients will post impressions to this thread. I hope you are as impressed as I was at first sniff. It's quite a beauty.
    "Like a lobster with a pearl in its claw, the beet held the jasmine firmly without crushing or obscuring it. Beet lifted jasmine, the way a bullnecked partner lifts a ballerina, and the pair came on stage on citron's fluty cue. As if jasmine were a collection of beautiful paintings, beet hung it in the galleries of the nose, insured it against fire or theft, threw a party to celebrate it. Citron mailed the invitations." Jitterbug Perfume by Tom Robbins p. 189

    What I am loving right now: Shalimar vintage extrait, Chanel Bois des Iles, Chanel no. 22, Le Labo Iris 39, Guerlain Iris Ganache

  30. #60
    zatarain's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mitsouko Lovers will either love me or hate me for this...

    + 1 arrived home to find a devastatingly nice USPS box from Kyra... you rock in a sock, indeed, though I'm not sure what that means.

    Will definitely post impressions once I have conducted a proper wearing.

    And thank you Renee, for getting this rolling, and Mia (where are you?) for signing me up.
    Behemoth cut a slice of pineapple, salted it, peppered it, ate it, and then tossed off a second glass of alcohol so dashingly that everyone applauded.

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