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  1. #1

    Default Female Fragrances "wafting" ability

    I have always wondered why when you pass a female wearing perfume, her smell seems to remain in the air for much longer than a man's. Or you can smell her perfume in the air after she has left. I can't seem to replicate this effect with cologne.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Female Fragrances "wafting" ability

    Floral fragrances often have high substantivity. (e.g they are reasonably though not excessivly volatile *and* have a low odor threshold)

  3. #3

    Default Re: Female Fragrances "wafting" ability

    Quote Originally Posted by vickbains View Post
    I have always wondered why when you pass a female wearing perfume, her smell seems to remain in the air for much longer than a man's. Or you can smell her perfume in the air after she has left. I can't seem to replicate this effect with cologne.
    Excellent question for your first post mate...

    I too have always wondered why can i always smell female scents when a female just crosses me? I mean their scents have such amazing 'sillage'.
    I have tried spraying over 10-12 times but i haven't been able to replicate that.

    The only explanation that comes to my mind is that perhaps the women respray themselves all the time and that 'florals' generally last longer.
    The only cologne that made me think that maybe i had found a male scent that could make people turn around when i cross them was Antaeus. When i wore it the first time, i remember i said to myself...that yeah this is the one that will be as noticeable as most women fragrances.

    gupts

  4. #4

    Default Re: Female Fragrances "wafting" ability


    There are a number of reasons, but a very important one is the ubiquitous presence of the aromachemical Hedione, which has the ability to intensify other notes, lift and brighten them, and to "waft" them. Arcadi Boix Camps, doyen nose and expert on the use and development of aromachemicals, classifies the last 40 years, since the introduction of Hedione, as the Hedione era given its ubiquitous presence and centrality to so many women's perfumes.

    scentemental


    Last edited by scentemental; 4th January 2008 at 01:03 PM.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Female Fragrances "wafting" ability

    Is the presence of Hedione strictly in women's perfumes? Are there any notable men's fragrances with this aromachemical?

  6. #6

    Default Re: Female Fragrances "wafting" ability

    Eau Sauvage Has Also Hedione But Does Not Have The Same Effect.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Female Fragrances "wafting" ability

    I have not tried Eau Sauvage, but I read on Bois de Jasmin blog that there was a significant amount.

    http://boisdejasmin.typepad.com/_/20...nce_ingre.html

  8. #8

    Default Re: Female Fragrances "wafting" ability

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisW View Post
    I have not tried Eau Sauvage, but I read on Bois de Jasmin blog that there was a significant amount.

    http://boisdejasmin.typepad.com/_/20...nce_ingre.html

    Significant only in the sense that it was the first use of Hedione at that level in perfumery. How insignificant it really is can be seen when one considers that in some women's perfumes, Hedione was subsequently used at levels as high as 25% of the perfume oils. Roudnitska himself downplayed the importance of Hedione in Eau Sauvage.

    I am sure it's present in more men's fragrances than we imagine, especially since the 1990s when the more diffusive fresh trend began, but other chemicals along similar lines of diffusivity were developed and used instead of Hedione because it has a tendency to act as a floralizer and so was probably avoided to a certain extent in men's fragrances. If I have time, I'll try to post something on these other Hedione like aromachemicals used in men's fragrance and see if I can confirm which men's fragrances have Hedione in them. That's not a easy task given there's a dearth of writing on men's fragrances by industry experts.

    scentemental



    scentemental


    Last edited by scentemental; 4th January 2008 at 02:00 PM.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Female Fragrances "wafting" ability

    Interesting what Scentemental says about Hedione giving this effect to perfumes. When I'm building fragrances at home, I tend to reach for the hedione often-- I love its effects. Ever since I became aware of its importance to the composition of Comme des Garçons Odeur 53, I've been intrigued by hedione.

    I initially used hedione when I was working on making a womens' floral scent, but have since experimented with using it in many different types of scents across the gender spectrum, including masculine fragrances. The best description of the effect of hedione is that of "a ray of sunlight"-- pretty accurate. It's like an inner radiance that comes from the fragrance/skin. A lyric from the Sugarcubes always dances into my head when I pick up my bottle of hedione-- "Gold is the sweat, of the sun."

    One recent scent that I think I detect a very prominent hedione note is Bulgari's Au Thé Rouge (Red Tea). Au Thé Rouge smells like a sunkissed tanic red wine/apple-skin on the hayride in the last days of September. The hedione gives it that sunkissed note.

    I think womens' scents may "waft" better for many of the legitmate reasons mentioned-- however it could also be that as men, our noses may be more tuned to pick up the smell of women-- while we may tune out mens' fragrances (especially since so many men don't wear fragrance at all). At the same time, women are probably better at smelling mens' colognes-- because that's what they're looking for.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Female Fragrances "wafting" ability

    I notice mostly male fragrances around me and rarely female fragrances. Whoever made me got my wires crossed obviously.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Female Fragrances "wafting" ability

    I smell scents 'wafting' off of men all the time!

    I don't know if this is specific to Miami, but tons of guys over apply very strong fragrances (D&G PH, Acqua di Gio...do I really need to list the rest...you know what I'm going to say) and these fragrances also have the ability to fill up an entire room with their scent. Just yesterday our office intern (who BTW is from France) walked by and I could smell his SOTD very clearly as he walked by.

    It was Eau Savage. No kidding.

    Of course I smell fragrances 'wafting' from women also (one of the ladies in my office fills the room with the smell of Aromatics Elixir when she walks in...it smells so sexy on her). But, I think that I notice it on men just as much as I do women.

    On a side note: I remember Luca Turin (and Chandler Burr for that matter) suggesting that men shouldn't leave a trail of scent behind them, like women do. I have always followed this advice myself.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Female Fragrances "wafting" ability

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeperez23 View Post
    I smell scents 'wafting' off of men all the time!

    I don't know if this is specific to Miami, but tons of guys over apply very strong fragrances (D&G PH, Acqua di Gio...do I really need to list the rest...you know what I'm going to say) and these fragrances also have the ability to fill up an entire room with their scent . . .
    Mike,

    Three of the most important and ubiquitous aromachemicals that account for most aquatic, ozonic, marine type accords and that explain the Acqua di Gio PH diffusion phenomenon you allude to are: Calone®, Helional®, and Precyclemone B®.

    There are a number of woody tobacco aromachemical odorants that account for the powerfully diffusive nature of fragrances like D&G Pour Homme. The names at the moment escape my memory, and I am not in a position to reference my notes.

    scentemental
    Last edited by scentemental; 4th January 2008 at 03:29 PM.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Female Fragrances "wafting" ability

    There's an interesting read of hedione and jasmine here:
    http://perfumeshrine.blogspot.com/20...f-jasmine.html

    There's some history and they said hedione adds a 'green floral note' and 'revolutionized men's scents.'

    If all that is true, then there probably are a TON of men's fragrances with hedione (or at least a chemical with similar attributes but without adding a 'green floral note'). Especially with the fresh fragrances trend in the 1990s. (All of which Scentemental noted.)

    What Indie_Guy said was interesting too, the psychological 'notice what you are looking for' gender distinction. I was in the mall last night and I noticed a woman's perfume at a restaurant because it seemed to smack me in the nose and was very powerful. It was like she just sprayed it in the air (who knows, she may have). I also noticed a men's perfume later on as I was walking. The men's perfume that I detected was because it was oversprayed, but the women's seemed more 'natural' in the respect that I wasn't detecting excessive quantity but more 'wafting'.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Female Fragrances "wafting" ability

    I am anxious to read scentemental's further comments, I do hope you have time to expand my friend!

    I absolutely never come across anyone else's scent in my daily life. I stand out like a sore thumb if I leave any sillage and I almost always receive a comment/compliment if someone notices my scent.
    Even my wife and daughter have an extremely light hand when using fragrance.
    I am jealous of those who are lucky enough to experience these "wafts" of scent every day!

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Female Fragrances "wafting" ability

    Quote Originally Posted by scentemental View Post
    Mike,

    Three of the most important and ubiquitous aromachemicals that account for most aquatic, ozonic, marine type accords and that explain the Acqua di Gio PH diffusion phenomenon you allude to are: Calone®, Helional®, and Precyclemone B®.

    There are a number of woody tobacco aromachemical odorants that account for the powerfully diffusive nature of fragrances like D&G Pour Homme. The names at the moment escape my memory, and I am not in a position to reference my notes.

    scentemental
    I'm just guessing, but I would imagine these same chemicals could be found in those AXE body spray/deodorants that are wildly popular also. Everytime someone sprays one in my locker room the scent lingers atleast for a few minutes - long after the sprayer has left the room. Coupled with the fact that the marketing of these products practically suggests that it be overapplied...the 'wafting' quotient just keeps going up and up!

  16. #16

    Default Re: Female Fragrances "wafting" ability

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisW View Post
    There's an interesting read of hedione and jasmine here:
    http://perfumeshrine.blogspot.com/20...f-jasmine.html

    There's some history and they said hedione adds a 'green floral note' and 'revolutionized men's scents.'

    If all that is true, then there probably are a TON of men's fragrances with hedione (or at least a chemical with similar attributes but without adding a 'green floral note'). Especially with the fresh fragrances trend in the 1990s. (All of which Scentemental noted.)

    What Indie_Guy said was interesting too, the psychological 'notice what you are looking for' gender distinction. I was in the mall last night and I noticed a woman's perfume at a restaurant because it seemed to smack me in the nose and was very powerful. It was like she just sprayed it in the air (who knows, she may have). I also noticed a men's perfume later on as I was walking. The men's perfume that I detected was because it was oversprayed, but the women's seemed more 'natural' in the respect that I wasn't detecting excessive quantity but more 'wafting'.
    Interesting and thoughtful observations Chris. I am actually researching the use of all these kind of aromachemicals in modern perfumery for my book. I will try to post a thread with a synopsis of the chapter when it's somewhat done as there seems to be some interest for that kind of stuff here.

    Best regards,

    scentemental

    P.S. I am sure there are indeed a ton of men's fragrances with hedione, and in retrospect, I don' t think its floralizing tendencies exclude it from being used in men's fragrances. It's such a chameleon ingredient that it tends to take on the character of whatever it's mixed with and turns up the tonality and the radiance. I suspect, though, that we can safely say that it's not used in the same quantities as it is in women's fragrances. I seem to recall that it's used in Marc Jacobs for Men and that makes sense since it's a fragrance built around a jasmonic gardenia heart.

    Of course, thanks to Indie_Guy for his always interesting reflections and for reminding us that GdG's Odeur 53 is built around Hedione.



    --------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by mikeperez23 View Post
    I'm just guessing, but I would imagine these same chemicals could be found in those AXE body spray/deodorants that are wildly popular also. Everytime someone sprays one in my locker room the scent lingers atleast for a few minutes - long after the sprayer has left the room. Coupled with the fact that the marketing of these products practically suggests that it be overapplied...the 'wafting' quotient just keeps going up and up!
    No doubt Mike and an excellent observation to boot. We forget how often fine perfumery trickles down to mass market. Chanel No. 5, for example has ushered in, over the years, a slew of formulas used for scenting all kinds functional products.

    scentemental

    --------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by evogel View Post
    I am anxious to read scentemental's further comments, I do hope you have time to expand my friend!

    I absolutely never come across anyone else's scent in my daily life. I stand out like a sore thumb if I leave any sillage and I almost always receive a comment/compliment if someone notices my scent.
    Even my wife and daughter have an extremely light hand when using fragrance.
    I am jealous of those who are lucky enough to experience these "wafts" of scent every day!
    E.! So good to see you back and posting my friend! The board is a richer place when you share your thoughts with us.

    I am sorry you don't have a lot of contact with fragrance in your daily life outside your own practices. It's pretty much the same where I live. I have over 50 colleagues at work and only an older women in her early sixties consistently wears fragrance. Giorgio Beverly Hill Red is her signature fragrance, which smells so good on her that I bought myself a bottle. It's excellent stuff.

    Again, wonderful to have you back, and I promise to post more of my research as it progresses.

    Best regards and a happy new year to you,

    scentemental
    Last edited by scentemental; 4th January 2008 at 03:51 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  17. #17

    Default Re: Female Fragrances "wafting" ability

    In no way do I want to contradict anything written above on this thread, and my explanation is thus nothing that excludes the above, but:

    I was super pissed off when my old girlfriend wore my Habit Rouge, Fragonard Vetyver, and CdG 2 (not CdG2Man) and gave of huge amounts of fantastic sillage and easily had 24 hour wearings of each. Damn, how do you do that, I'd ask, I can smell you all over this restaurant tonight and I saw you put it on this morning! I can never get duration and power like that, I'd tell her. Her answer: "you just have a supremely sensitive nose."

    Maybe. But I also noticed that when she got out of the shower she oiled herself up every morning with skin softening lotions. I joked that showers for her were to wash oils off, the lotions were to put it back on again. I think all the skin care and lotion product purchasing she did extended her sillage and duration of the scents that she picked off my shelf.
    --Chris
    That girl, that bottle, that mattress and me.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Female Fragrances "wafting" ability

    I think women move about ten times as much air as men when they walk. Not only because of the nature of the clothes they wear (skirts, robes, loose fit, fluffy texture, etc) but also because of their longer hair, and maybe even because of the shape of their body's.

    My two cents
    Last edited by Domingo; 4th January 2008 at 07:15 PM.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Female Fragrances "wafting" ability

    Quote Originally Posted by Domingo View Post
    I think women move about ten times as much air as men when they walk. Not only because of the nature of the clothes they wear (skirts, robes, loose fit, fluffy texture, etc) but also because of their longer hair, and maybe even because of the shape of their body's.

    My two cents

    No that's a really interesting and original thought Domingo. It makes a lot of sense to. I am sure the movement of the body and the clothes has something to do with the sillage. It makes perfect sense.


    --------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by DustB View Post
    In no way do I want to contradict anything written above on this thread, and my explanation is thus nothing that excludes the above, but:

    I was super pissed off when my old girlfriend wore my Habit Rouge, Fragonard Vetyver, and CdG 2 (not CdG2Man) and gave of huge amounts of fantastic sillage and easily had 24 hour wearings of each. Damn, how do you do that, I'd ask, I can smell you all over this restaurant tonight and I saw you put it on this morning! I can never get duration and power like that, I'd tell her. Her answer: "you just have a supremely sensitive nose."

    Maybe. But I also noticed that when she got out of the shower she oiled herself up every morning with skin softening lotions. I joked that showers for her were to wash oils off, the lotions were to put it back on again. I think all the skin care and lotion product purchasing she did extended her sillage and duration of the scents that she picked off my shelf.
    --Chris
    Certainly another astute observation on the difference between the sexes and its relation to sillage.

    scentemental


    Last edited by scentemental; 4th January 2008 at 07:45 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  20. #20

    Default Re: Female Fragrances "wafting" ability

    Absolutely excellent thread, please continue!!

  21. #21

    Default Re: Female Fragrances "wafting" ability

    Interesting thread. I also think that we experience our own fragrances less due to olfactory habituation. People detect my fragrances long after I think they're gone. And I notice that after I eat strong smelling food my SOTD suddenly returns in much greater strength because I have "reset" my nose just like those cans of coffee beans at the fragrance counter.

    I also think that what you are experiencing is just one of those mysteries of women that shall never be revealed. Or maybe it is the lotion.

    Scentemental, so glad to see your postings over the last couple of days. Educational and thoughtful as always. A rich counterpoint to the sideways turn the board had taken recently.

    -Slim
    Haikus are easy
    But do not always make sense
    Refrigerator

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  22. #22

    Default Re: Female Fragrances "wafting" ability

    I have always though that a gender will smell stronger the fragrances of his counterpart because those scents are somewhat strange for him/her. I often wear female scents, and when I do, I ask my girl friends, if they like it. They usually say that I just smell "clean" or that they can barely detect the scent I am using.

    Now the hair. It is amazing how much scent it can hold, even if it is only the scent of shampoo. And oh yes, Women are usually less afraid about spaying a bit more than men.

    About Axe: the way those deodorants work is by using volatile, very aromatic fragrances that will fill up a room in 4 seconds but will only last ten minutes. spray axe and observe the particles. They are not as heavy and dense as the EDT. That is why they are so annoying.
    Last edited by irish; 21st September 2008 at 09:27 PM.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Female Fragrances "wafting" ability

    In a PM yesterday, I was asked what I thought about Parfum d'Habit's sillage as opposed to Kolnisch Juchten's.

    I know that sillage is described as the 'wake' left by a person's fragrance after that person has left the room.

    I am more interested in the specific fragrance notes that cause or enhance sillage. I started looking on the internet but didn't find anything useful - just more definitions of 'sillage'.

    I should have checked Basenotes first, as this thread is the best I have found. It hasn't given me a complete answer but it has provided me with enough information and direction to focus my search.

    Any thoughts on notes that are either sillage monsters themselves or that enhance the sillage of other notes? Any guidance and insight would be greatly appreciated!
    Two roads diverged in a yellow wood, and sorry I could not travel both and be one traveler, long I stood and looked down one as far as I could to where it bent in the undergrowth; Then took the other, as just as fair, ...... I shall be telling this with a sigh somewhere ages and ages hence: Two roads diverged in a wood, and I -- I took the one less traveled by, and that has made all the difference. - Robert Frost

  24. #24

    Default Re: Female Fragrances "wafting" ability

    TwoRoads, the ones that spring to mind within my own personal experience, are notes like:

    Oud
    Vanilla

    Both (IMO of course) seem to imbue all the air around me with scented molecules. I guess much of it also has to do with the quantity of essential oil used in the fragrance.
    (Not a very scientific answer, I know, merely an observation)
    Last edited by Sorcery of Scent; 21st September 2008 at 05:03 PM.

  25. #25

    Default Re: Female Fragrances "wafting" ability

    Bumping up threads more than six months old is against the etiquette guidelines of the Forum Rules.
    Renato

  26. #26

    Default Re: Female Fragrances "wafting" ability

    Renato, are you serious?
    Is so, then Im sure TwoRoads and I are both oblivious to this rule (?)
    I think you're pulling our leg!

    Kids, don't listen to him (No wonder the newcomers to the forums are confused as to what they ought and ought not to post)...

  27. #27

    Default Re: Female Fragrances "wafting" ability

    Quote Originally Posted by Dimitri View Post
    Renato, are you serious?
    Is so, then Im sure TwoRoads and I are both oblivious to this rule (?)
    I think you're pulling our leg!

    Kids, don't listen to him (No wonder the newcomers to the forums are confused as to what they ought and ought not to post)...
    Here are the Guidelines, straight from the Forum Rules.
    The fifth one is the applicable one. I guess it stops the resurrection of departed members, and the predisposition of some members to engage in the conservation of new threads.

    I find them annoying, especially the one's that I've already responded to, and those that semi-worship departed members.
    Renato


    Etiquette Guidelines

    These are suggestions to help make every one's experience more enjoyable. These are not rules per se but suggestions. However, consistently displaying bad etiquette may be considered a breach of the spirit of the rules.

    If you are new to fragrances, you are recommended to post in the Just Starting Out forum. This forum is designed to help people who are new to fragrances. You shouldn't be afraid to ask a question there, no matter how silly it seems. We aim to provide a friendly area where people can come and learn.
    Welcome newcomers - if you are an 'old-timer', try to think back to when you first joined and how daunting it may have been. A new member shouldn't be made to feel stupid for asking what you may see as a stupid question
    Before you post, make sure that you do a quick search to make sure that your question or subject has not been recently covered. It can be frustrating to see the same question posted each week.
    Try to avoid replying to threads that are over six months old. Information may be outdated, so it is best to start a new thread in these cases.
    Members should avoid the posting in all CAPS LOCK, using 'leet' speak or using 'u' for you etc as this can make posts difficult to read. It is worth remembering that English may not be the first language of other members.
    If you have nothing of use to add to a thread, then there is no need to post to it.
    Refrain from making negative comments about a another member's thread - you are more than welcome to start a new thread on something you find more interesting!
    If your thread is not answered, avoid getting angry or constantly bumping it. Members will answer questions if they are able to and if they want to.
    Last edited by Renato; 21st September 2008 at 05:46 PM.

  28. #28

    Default Re: Female Fragrances "wafting" ability

    I know about those guidelines, and now that it's really become a question here, I've got to say that I think there's a risk to following them. The risk being a loss of the information on this thread. Why wouldn't a member who finds it, reads it, enjoys it, and wants to interact with its information, not want to be a part of the thread?

    There are times for avoiding bumping old threads, but there are times also for the value of vintage. If things become a problem that'll be clear quickly and something to do something about.

    If the principle of bumps really offends a member, I urge that member to drop me a note by PM.

    Also, now that we've had this issue come up out in the open on this fine thread, I'd really rather the thread not become a discussion of the etiquette requests the site makes. I'd really like it if discussions of wafting and ingredients with staying power, and pretty women's delcious sillage can remain and not become about bumping pros and cons.

    I thank everyone and assure you all that I'm happy to consider thoughts about this by PM.
    Thanks!
    --Chris
    That girl, that bottle, that mattress and me.

  29. #29

    Default Re: Female Fragrances "wafting" ability

    I find the ' use the search function' and the ' do not resurrect old threads' a bit contradictory in a way, but that might just be me.

    And Renato it sounds like you have a bigger problem with the infamous posters in the resurrected threads than with the actual resurrected content.
    But once you get locked into a serious perfume collection, the tendency is to push it as far as you can.

  30. #30

    Default Re: Female Fragrances "wafting" ability

    If we can bring this thread back on topic, I would really appreciate it.

    I am very interested in furthering my education and gaining a better understanding of the specific notes that cause or enhance the sillage of a fragrance.

    Thanks!
    Two roads diverged in a yellow wood, and sorry I could not travel both and be one traveler, long I stood and looked down one as far as I could to where it bent in the undergrowth; Then took the other, as just as fair, ...... I shall be telling this with a sigh somewhere ages and ages hence: Two roads diverged in a wood, and I -- I took the one less traveled by, and that has made all the difference. - Robert Frost

  31. #31

    Default Re: Female Fragrances "wafting" ability

    I agree and I can mention one male fragrance that wafts and it's John Varvatos (spelling, too lazy to look it up in the directory). But this was in the morning, it didn't waft later in the day. Could it be that the strength itself of the male fragrances are lower than the womens?

    And what about uni sex fragrances?

    I think sillage can be improved if you spray in your hair, in the back of your neck and lotion up.
    But once you get locked into a serious perfume collection, the tendency is to push it as far as you can.

  32. #32

    Default Re: Female Fragrances "wafting" ability

    Quote Originally Posted by Indie_Guy View Post

    One recent scent that I think I detect a very prominent hedione note is Bulgari's Au Thé Rouge (Red Tea). Au Thé Rouge smells like a sunkissed tanic red wine/apple-skin on the hayride in the last days of September. The hedione gives it that sunkissed note.
    Very interesing: that may explain why Au Thé Rouge has such impressive sillage and longevity. In fact, I sometimes find it a bit cloying, outstaying its welcome.

  33. #33

    Default Re: Female Fragrances "wafting" ability

    This is a great thread... It's made me really really curious as to other fragrance components. Is there any directory listing the information and qualities of all the fragrance chemicals/oils/components?

    I hope I'm not derailing this thread by asking this.

  34. #34

    Default Re: Female Fragrances "wafting" ability

    I actually find an about 50/50 spread - about half the women who wear perfume and about half the men who wear fragrance leave a trail. (Unfortunately, the ickier the scent, the longer the trail, but that's besides the point.)

    Perhaps it's because fewer men wear fragrance than women (present company excluded, of course); but I've walked into more than one elevator after a gentleman exits and the scent stayed.

    On one specific occasion, I was working late one night and so was another young man (on different projects, but in about the same area); he eventually left a couple of hours before I did, and for those two hours I could distinctly smell his fragrance in the area (which I left several times and could still smell it on return).

    Which reminds me, I have to ask him what he was wearing, it's a gorgeous scent (if I can remember what he looks like, heh).

    So I'd say it's about half an half. Plus, in most cases, men don't have the option of layering (fragrance over body lotion, for example) - that certainly enhances the scent (don't try this with Prada, though - their body lotion and body wash to my nose was totally different from the fragrance itself and really did not smell good at all).

    On another note - I find that some of those after-shave balms tend to have better sillage; perhaps the reason is that when you Gentlemen shave, you also exfoliate, so the fragrance clings closer. We Ladies exfoliate all the time, so that might be a contributing factor as well.
    Veni, Vidi, Visa.

  35. #35

    Default Re: Female Fragrances "wafting" ability

    Hey Lian, I too notice the wafting of John Varvatos. I keep getting whiffs of it when I don't expect it, but do not detect it otherwise. I do have a stuffy nose today though!

    And I agree with Dimitri on the Vanilla. I always seem to detect Vanilla in public from others and myself.

  36. #36

    Default Re: Female Fragrances "wafting" ability

    I definitely think Obsession for Men has some crazy "wafting" power. I can tell if someone was previously in a room, if they were wearing it. I wonder if *it* has hedione in it.
    Last edited by Aiona; 21st September 2008 at 07:54 PM.

  37. #37

    Default Re: Female Fragrances "wafting" ability

    Interesting article on hedione from Bois de Jasmin's blog:

    "October 26, 2005

    Fragrance Ingredient: Hedione

    What makes a perfect jasmine perfume? Jasmine absolute contains more than 300 different components, and traditionally, inspiration comes from the constituents identified. The aromachemicals would be combined in such a way as to replicate the fruity, flowery and animalic facets of jasmine, with additional green notes for capturing jasmine sambac. The effect of hedione (Firmenich tradename, also known as methyl dihydrojasmonate) on jasmine notes can be compared to a sunray hitting a flower. Given its ability to lend a radiant, warm quality to the floral notes, the perfume history of the last thirty years is incomplete without a discussion of hedione.

    Hedione combines remarkably well with various perfumery materials, and its first significant usage of 2% was seen in Christian Dior Eau Sauvage, created by Edmond Roudnitska in 1966. A layer of luminous jasmine against the backdrop of herbs, patchouli, woods and coumarin makes Eau Sauvage revolutionary in its ability to interpret floral notes in the domain of masculine perfumery. ...

    The influence of Eau Sauvage was felt in the coming years, with fragrances like Eau de Rochas and Ô de Lancôme, among many others, deriving inspiration from its refined aura.

    Another Roudnitska’s fragrance that heavily relied on hedione was Christian Dior Diorella (1972), an elegant composition pairing a peachy quality of aldehyde C14 (same one as was used in Guerlain Mitsouko) against a veil of diffusive green jasmine, with the entire arrangement supported by a chypre base of patchouli, oakmoss and vetiver. Dominated by floral and patchouli notes, Diorella almost begets a category of its own, despite the fact that it is often classified as chypre. Clinique Aromatics Elixir launched in the same year as Diorella explores a similar combination of hedione and patchouli, adding a heavier touch of rose and lily of the valley to the arrangement.

    In 1976, Jean-Claude Ellena’s beautiful floral bouquet, First by Van Cleef&Arpels incorporated an even larger of percentage of hedione in its formula, lending a radiant shimmering quality to the composition that almost makes it seem as if flowers unfold slowly on the skin. Finally, in 1998, Martine Pallix created Comme de Garçons Odeur 53, which contains the highest percentage of hedione on the market, making up more than half of the formula.

    Hedione, like another larger molecule material Iso E Super, possesses not only high diffusion, but also tenacity. As it evaporates, hedione seems to remain in the air, which is an important quality, making it one of the most popular perfume materials. It is used to accent many compositions, therefore it is next to impossible to list all of the fragrances containing hedione. Interestingly enough, some marketing descriptions tend to include it among the notes, such as Kenzo Flower (wild hawthorn, Bulgarian rose, parma violet, cassia, hedione, white musk and vanilla), Pure Perfume by Jil Sander (hedione, wild cyclamens and green notes), Lauren Style by Ralph Lauren, and Gai Mattiolo Uomo, to name a few.

    References: Calkin, Robert and J. Stephan Jellinek. Perfumery: Practice and Principles. John Wiley & Sons, Inc., New York, 1994. Kraft, P.; Bajgrowicz, J. A.; Denis, C.; Fráter, G. Odds and Trends: Recent Developments in the Chemistry of Odorants, Angew. Chem. Int. Ed. 2000, 39, 2980–3010."
    Two roads diverged in a yellow wood, and sorry I could not travel both and be one traveler, long I stood and looked down one as far as I could to where it bent in the undergrowth; Then took the other, as just as fair, ...... I shall be telling this with a sigh somewhere ages and ages hence: Two roads diverged in a wood, and I -- I took the one less traveled by, and that has made all the difference. - Robert Frost

  38. #38

    Default Re: Female Fragrances "wafting" ability

    Hehe, I linked to the blog in the beginning of the thread

    I think there was another link toward the beginning of the thread too. Both were good reads, and even better re-reads.

  39. #39

    Default Re: Female Fragrances "wafting" ability

    OK what is the name of Scentemental Book?

  40. #40

    Default Re: Female Fragrances "wafting" ability

    Quote Originally Posted by Lian View Post
    I find the ' use the search function' and the ' do not resurrect old threads' a bit contradictory in a way, but that might just be me.

    And Renato it sounds like you have a bigger problem with the infamous posters in the resurrected threads than with the actual resurrected content.
    Anyone can open a new thread with references to and/or links to old threads, an be in accord with the explicit guidelines.

    It's Grant's Forum and they are his guidelines.
    The onus is not on me to either justify or defend those guidelines.
    Renato

  41. #41

    Default Re: Female Fragrances "wafting" ability

    Quote Originally Posted by Renato View Post
    Anyone can open a new thread with references to and/or links to old threads, an be in accord with the explicit guidelines.

    It's Grant's Forum and they are his guidelines.
    The onus is not on me to either justify or defend those guidelines.
    Renato
    The onus is not on you to enforce them either. Please see DustB's comments above. It seems to me to be a personal issue between you and scentemental, please take care of it in private.

    I am not sure what your motives are, but I am trying to learn something here.
    Two roads diverged in a yellow wood, and sorry I could not travel both and be one traveler, long I stood and looked down one as far as I could to where it bent in the undergrowth; Then took the other, as just as fair, ...... I shall be telling this with a sigh somewhere ages and ages hence: Two roads diverged in a wood, and I -- I took the one less traveled by, and that has made all the difference. - Robert Frost

  42. #42

    Default Re: Female Fragrances "wafting" ability

    Quote Originally Posted by TwoRoads View Post
    The onus is not on you to enforce them either. Please see DustB's comments above. It seems to me to be a personal issue between you and scentemental, please take care of it in private.

    I am not sure what your motives are, but I am trying to learn something here.
    If people wish to flout the guidelines I cannot stop them bumping up old threads or enforce anything.
    However, if I wish to post about those guidelines when they are relevant to the thread, then that is my prerogative.
    Renato
    Last edited by Renato; 22nd September 2008 at 12:11 AM.

  43. #43


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    Default Re: Female Fragrances "wafting" ability

    Quote Originally Posted by Renato View Post
    If people wish to flout the guidelines I cannot stop them bumping up old threads or enforce anything.
    However, if I wish to post about those guidelines when they are relevant to the thread, then that is my prerogative.
    Renato
    Ok cool, now I am going to exercise my right, lets keep it on topic, this is a good thread; 3-4 posts on this "grudge" issue is clearly inappropriate:

    2.3 Airing of moderating grievances

    If you feel you or someone else has been moderated unfairly do not air your grievances on the board. Instead take it up with the moderator involved, or if this does not provide a satisfactory outcome, contact the website administrator with full details.

    ---

    When I smell this wafting on a pretty woman it is really a turn on, I remember when I went on a date with this very pretty woman in law school she was wearing Coco by Chanel and it had that wafting effect and it hooked me from the moment the date started. It made her much more attractive, we dated for a while after that. I think that some women are able to do this because a lot of women's scents are EDPs as opposed to EDTs which are the primary power of most men's scents.
    Last edited by TheAttorney; 22nd September 2008 at 12:23 AM.

  44. #44

    Default Re: Female Fragrances "wafting" ability

    Quote Originally Posted by Renato View Post
    If people wish to flout the guidelines I cannot stop them bumping up old threads or enforce anything.
    However, if I wish to post about those guidelines when they are relevant to the thread, then that is my prerogative.
    Renato
    The key word here is 'relevant'.

    When this thread died in January, there was a lot of unfinished business. Neither scentemental nor anyone else updated or completed the discussion of the specific aromachemicals that cause or enhance sillage in fragrances.

    As I said earlier, I am trying to educate myself on this subject so that I can answer someone else's questions. Since January, we have a number of technically-oriented new members. I was hoping that they and others could move this discussion forward.

    You, Renato, for reasons that I think are not related to fragrance, decided that we should discuss forum etiquette instead. You seem very happy to have tainted another classic thread.

    -----------------------------------------------------------

    I just saw TheAttorney's comments.

    I too think this is a good thread and is still salvageable.

    Thanks for putting us back on topic.
    Last edited by TwoRoads; 22nd September 2008 at 12:35 AM.
    Two roads diverged in a yellow wood, and sorry I could not travel both and be one traveler, long I stood and looked down one as far as I could to where it bent in the undergrowth; Then took the other, as just as fair, ...... I shall be telling this with a sigh somewhere ages and ages hence: Two roads diverged in a wood, and I -- I took the one less traveled by, and that has made all the difference. - Robert Frost

  45. #45

    Default Re: Female Fragrances "wafting" ability

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisW View Post
    Hehe, I linked to the blog in the beginning of the thread

    I think there was another link toward the beginning of the thread too. Both were good reads, and even better re-reads.
    You're right, I should have acknowledged that!
    Two roads diverged in a yellow wood, and sorry I could not travel both and be one traveler, long I stood and looked down one as far as I could to where it bent in the undergrowth; Then took the other, as just as fair, ...... I shall be telling this with a sigh somewhere ages and ages hence: Two roads diverged in a wood, and I -- I took the one less traveled by, and that has made all the difference. - Robert Frost

  46. #46

    Default Re: Female Fragrances "wafting" ability

    I remember the 80's power scents...several are men's, and they have incredible sillage. Two that come to mind are Ralph Lauren Polo and Paco Rabanne.

    I think fragrances which behave more like traditional cologne are not really meant to have sillage. They are more of an after-bath or after-shave fragrance that is supposed to be light and bracing, without sillage or longevity. I am not saying this justifies anything, but rather, explains the traditional approach for men's scents.

    I am sure the secret to sillage is synthetic

  47. #47

    Question Re: Female Fragrances "wafting" ability

    I can apply 8 sprays of most of my EDT's, stand two feet away from a co-worker and ask them if they can detect anything, and they always say "no."

    I don't understand it either.

  48. #48

    Default Re: Female Fragrances "wafting" ability

    I think the idea of sillage has been seen to be more popular for women's fragrances than men's historically and this is why there are more of these so-called "sillage enhancers" used in high concentrations in feminine perfumery. Things have been changing though and we are seeing (smelling) more and more monster sillage fragrances for men every year.

  49. #49

    Default Re: Female Fragrances "wafting" ability

    Quote Originally Posted by mrclmind View Post
    I think the idea of sillage has been seen to be more popular for women's fragrances than men's historically and this is why there are more of these so-called "sillage enhancers" used in high concentrations in feminine perfumery. Things have been changing though and we are seeing (smelling) more and more monster sillage fragrances for men every year.
    Hedione was mentioned earlier in this thread.

    Are there any other notes that are particularly known to cause sillage themselves or that are used to enhance the sillage of other notes in a fragrance?
    Last edited by TwoRoads; 22nd September 2008 at 02:18 AM.
    Two roads diverged in a yellow wood, and sorry I could not travel both and be one traveler, long I stood and looked down one as far as I could to where it bent in the undergrowth; Then took the other, as just as fair, ...... I shall be telling this with a sigh somewhere ages and ages hence: Two roads diverged in a wood, and I -- I took the one less traveled by, and that has made all the difference. - Robert Frost

  50. #50
    Moderator

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    Default Re: Female Fragrances "wafting" ability

    Quote Originally Posted by TwoRoads View Post
    Hedione was mentioned earlier in this thread.

    Are there any other notes that are particularly known to cause sillage themselves or that are used to enhance the sillage of other notes in a fragrance?
    I'm looking through my books and other reference materials right now, trying to answer this question, particularly in reference to Scentemental's second post, in which he mentions the existence of other such substances. Coming up with very little, I am beginning to appreciate the importance of Hedione. I had once thought that the revolutionary nature of this molecule was a little "overplayed", as we like to say about finished fragrances, but the fact that so few other molecules are mentioned as having strong enhancing properties is starting to make me a believer.

    Quoting from Charles Sell's chapter in The Chemistry of Fragrances (pg. 128):

    "The most important of these is methyl dihydrojasmonate, methyl 2-(2-pentylcyclopentan-3-on-1-yl)acetate [Hedione]. This material differs from methyl jasmonate, the natural jasmine component, in that its side chain is saturated whereas the natural material has a cis-double bond between the second and third carbon atoms of the chain. Both compounds have similar jasmine odours. The odour is percieved as weak when a fresh sample of material is smelt. However, if the sample is left in a room, the whole room is filled with its delicate floral scent. In perfume compositions, methyl dihydrojasmonate [Hedione] has a blending, fixing, and enhancing effect on the other components. These properties have made it one of the most important of fragrance ingredients."
    In the literature from Perfumer's Apprentice, the aromachemicals descriptions don't have anything special to say about Hedione: "heard/mid note - floral oily jasmin green lactonic - CAS # 24851-98-7 can use up to 35% of total concentrate". Several other components are mentioned as blending well with other components, or other types of components. Only a few are mentioned as enhancing or boosting others. One, Exaltenone, is described as a musk which "can be used as a booster with other musks, or to increase substantivity in a composition. It also gives a more natural animal-musk connotation to other musks present in the composition."

    Beyond that, there are some other materials listed which seem like they could be used to influence sillage/wafting/persistence. Oriniff - a "floral, violet, orris leather" component, is said to "give compounds volume". Additionally, the natural chemical phytol (Z+E isomers) is said to improve diffusion. It is also noted that Rosalva (9-decen-1-ol) "maintains a constancy of odor strength". However, from what I'm reading, none of these appears to come close to the general boosting ability of Hedione, IMO.

    On a separate point related to the wafting of scents, I think that Chris (DustB) made a critical observation earlier in the thread. The use of lotions by his lady friend is - in my opinion - exactly how our fellow member Divatologist is able to so reliably overcome longevity problems and maintain effective and noticeable sillage all day - which I take to be "wafting". The physical chemistry of application and whatnot in relation to longevity and sillage is actually discussed in The Chemistry of Fragrances, and this observation makes lots of sense relative to that. So I believe that the answer to the male/female wafting difference also has a significant application component. The readiness of women to effectively use flanker skin products, or even unrelated ones which have significant effects on retention of scent, in contrast to the male tendency to simply shower, spray, and forget, is something that I am quite sure plays into this whole thing.

    I will keep looking at this question. It's definitely fascinating.
    * * * *

  51. #51

    Default Re: Female Fragrances "wafting" ability

    In addition to Hedione, of the aromachemicals I have smelled recently I've noticed that Calone (heavily used in 1990s "aquatic" fragrances and smells kind of watery and melon-y) is VERY strong - mixing it with other chemicals can totally overpower everything else and may contribute to this. Also finding Velvione (floral musk, suitable replacement for the banned nitro-musks) rather strong - scented my room for days!

    I'm also rather curious about what notes/chemicals may improve sillage. Keep the posts coming!

  52. #52

    Default Re: Female Fragrances "wafting" ability

    Quote Originally Posted by TwoRoads View Post
    The key word here is 'relevant'.

    When this thread died in January, there was a lot of unfinished business. Neither scentemental nor anyone else updated or completed the discussion of the specific aromachemicals that cause or enhance sillage in fragrances.

    As I said earlier, I am trying to educate myself on this subject so that I can answer someone else's questions. Since January, we have a number of technically-oriented new members. I was hoping that they and others could move this discussion forward.

    You, Renato, for reasons that I think are not related to fragrance, decided that we should discuss forum etiquette instead. You seem very happy to have tainted another classic thread.

    -----------------------------------------------------------

    I just saw TheAttorney's comments.

    I too think this is a good thread and is still salvageable.

    Thanks for putting us back on topic.
    Lots of red herrings here today.

    The guideline states,

    These are not rules per se but suggestions. However, consistently displaying bad etiquette may be considered a breach of the spirit of the rules.

    Try to avoid replying to threads that are over six months old. Information may be outdated, so it is best to start a new thread in these cases
    .

    Any other discussion trying to circumvent or avoid the guidelines is nugatory in my opinion.
    Renato
    Last edited by Renato; 22nd September 2008 at 09:20 AM.

  53. #53

    Default Re: Female Fragrances "wafting" ability

    Renato, are you still on about the rules despite the efforts of many to pull this thread back on course!?

    Much in the same way you've taken it upon yourself to police the content of this thread, I might do the same, and remind you that a forum moderator has already expressed his desire that you CEASE turning this thread into a discussion of site etiquette.

    Let it go, or take it to PM champ!

  54. #54

    Default Re: Female Fragrances "wafting" ability

    Quote Originally Posted by Dimitri View Post
    Renato, are you still on about the rules despite the efforts of many to pull this thread back on course!?

    Much in the same way you've taken it upon yourself to police the content of this thread, I might do the same, and remind you that a forum moderator has already expressed his desire that you CEASE turning this thread into a discussion of site etiquette.

    Let it go, or take it to PM champ!
    Hi Dimitri,
    I have indeed PMed the Moderator.

    You will note that after the Moderator's ruling I have not discussed the merits or otherwise of the guidelines.

    That said, others have been discussing them - especially by posting to me with numerous statements, implicit in each being the notion that the guidelines apparently shouldn't apply to them.

    In response, I haven't been discussing the merits or otherwise of the guidelines - that's not my place - instead I've just been restating them.
    Cheers,
    Renato

  55. #55

    Default Re: Female Fragrances "wafting" ability

    Let moderators repeat guidelines then, it´s their job, we just follow them. It´s not your job to remind us of the guidelines, if you feel we break them take it up with a moderator. We have been trying to discuss wafting and sillage more, I haven´t seen you make one post about the actual content of this thread.

    So on topic,

    I think moisturizing the skin can play a vital part too, I got my so to use some unscented lotion since in iceland your skin can get very dry in the winter and after lotioning up, he sprayed on 2 sprays of Creeds Tabarome.( one chest, and one wrist)

    I was still able to catch whiffs of this 12 hours later!


    Maybe we can set up a test?
    People will wear a female fragrance, a male fragrance and a uni sex one. We all wear the same type of perfume and the same brand ( jicky for female, dzing for men, tea for two for unisex for instance)

    One day we spray in hair and clothes only, other day we spray on normal skin, the next day we lotion up and then spray the skin. We do this for the 3 scents.

    For science!
    Last edited by Lian; 22nd September 2008 at 10:42 AM.
    But once you get locked into a serious perfume collection, the tendency is to push it as far as you can.

  56. #56

    Default Re: Female Fragrances "wafting" ability

    Quote Originally Posted by Lian View Post
    Let moderators repeat guidelines then, it´s their job, we just follow them.
    I wouldn't have raised the matter in the first instance if you did indeed "just follow them".
    Renato

  57. #57

    Default Re: Female Fragrances "wafting" ability

    I want to thank almost everyone who has commented so far, especially Redneck Perfumisto and Jillsy for their very specific discussion of 'wafting' aromachemicals.

    This is a fascinating subject to me. I hope we can keep this conversation on track and moving forward.

    Btw, I have been using an unscented lotion for quite some time - it really does add significantly to the longevity of my fragrances!
    Last edited by TwoRoads; 22nd September 2008 at 12:45 PM.
    Two roads diverged in a yellow wood, and sorry I could not travel both and be one traveler, long I stood and looked down one as far as I could to where it bent in the undergrowth; Then took the other, as just as fair, ...... I shall be telling this with a sigh somewhere ages and ages hence: Two roads diverged in a wood, and I -- I took the one less traveled by, and that has made all the difference. - Robert Frost

  58. #58

    Default Re: Female Fragrances "wafting" ability

    Quote Originally Posted by Lian View Post
    Maybe we can set up a test?
    People will wear a female fragrance, a male fragrance and a uni sex one. We all wear the same type of perfume and the same brand ( jicky for female, dzing for men, tea for two for unisex for instance)

    One day we spray in hair and clothes only, other day we spray on normal skin, the next day we lotion up and then spray the skin. We do this for the 3 scents.

    For science!
    If it is for science, I'm game. I'll PM you to discuss this further.
    Two roads diverged in a yellow wood, and sorry I could not travel both and be one traveler, long I stood and looked down one as far as I could to where it bent in the undergrowth; Then took the other, as just as fair, ...... I shall be telling this with a sigh somewhere ages and ages hence: Two roads diverged in a wood, and I -- I took the one less traveled by, and that has made all the difference. - Robert Frost

  59. #59

    Default Re: Female Fragrances "wafting" ability

    Quote Originally Posted by Renato View Post
    I wouldn't have raised the matter in the first instance if you did indeed "just follow them".
    Renato
    Whilst I might not agree with some of the comments you have said, I have to say I respect you (and fellow Aussie user Dimitrios) for standing your ground, stating what you believe in and basically 'not taking crap from anyone.' Its a big thing I believe in, and I've always seen that in what you say on this website.

    Back on topic; apparently after OD'ing with 12 squirts of Polo Blue, I left the back of the shoe-store I used to work at 'pleasantly scented' for 2-3 days! So men's frags can definitely 'waft.' I still believe that womens frags are, as a general rule, stronger. Any time I've gone 'frag-hunting' for my girlfriend, my fingers stay pleasantly scented for hours just by spraying testers.

    I think one of the biggest differences, as others have said, is that womens are EDPs. I've also found that all my frags last FOREVER on my girlfriend; whether thats because of a lack of olfactory fatigue or her skin, I don't know.
    Looking for: Andy Tauer - L'air du Desert Morocain & Incense Extreme

    Check out my NEW Aussie sale / trade thread here -
    http://www.basenotes.net/threads/249...76#post1801576

  60. #60

    Default Re: Female Fragrances "wafting" ability

    Enough already. This isn't a debating society where every point needs to be rebutted. Members and readers of the thread have had plenty of chances to see Renato's point and the replies. Members and readers deserve to have their intelligences respected--they can think about the priorities as they see them and can see grey areas in between absolute positions. Members and readers aren't here to see a debating society, they're here for fragrance discussion and on this thread in particular the interest it offers of ideas in fragrance use and manufacture.

    Further debate over etiquette guidelines violates the spirit of etiquette.

    I don't have time right now but I may go back and delete all the off topic posts after my earlier post asking members to stay on topic. That will render some of this thread harder to read, but that'll be the breaks.

    As to enforcement of the etiquette guidelines, I do take them seriously, and I apply them as the spirit of the law when necessary and not according to the letter of the law for all occasions. When something is an etiquette guideline problem, I try to act on it. Sometimes I'm not as prompt as I'd like to be. Hindsight problem and all that.
    --Chris
    That girl, that bottle, that mattress and me.

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