Kouros and Orange Spice

[bbobkc]

I can't imagine that this hasn't been discussed here but I could not find anything on it. Sorry if I am starting a rehash. I just got a sample vial of Orange Spice and to me it is remarkably like Kouros. Any comments on similarities and/or differences? Thanks in advance.

Bill

[Mikey Q]

I think there might be a thread on this. I agree...they are similar. On me OS was smoother and didn't have the sharp note (urinal cake). I like 'em both.

[samplermike]

Yes, they are similar but Orange Spice is not as animalic. Pierre Bourdon created Kouros because he was in fact a long time fan of Orange Spice.

[ChrisW]

http://community.basenotes.net/showt...s+orange+spice
http://community.basenotes.net/showt...s+orange+spice
http://community.basenotes.net/showt...s+orange+spice

Here's a few, there were about 3 pages, but these seem to discuss the topic the most.

[rjrober22]

I totally agree and I think I may have posted something on this a couple yrs ago....I can't remember really.
I ended up trading mine....and my Kouros....

[DustB]

I've gone back and forth between which I like better. Sometimes it's Kouros because of the rawness and unrefined hints in it, but sometimes it's the ethereal grace of the ghostly neroli (I think it's neroli) in Orange Spice.

They are very like, but there are also huge differences in how they feel. Kouros is very elegant, I believe, despite its monster reputation, but it is a blunt and forceful instrument. There are many many things going on in the smell of Kouros--more than in Orange Spice--but they're harder to find and take some patient seeking and learning.

Orange spice seems to me to have fewer things going on, but great things all the same. Orange Spice is sort of like a curtain behind you and Kouros is a searchlight blasting out of you.

As similar as they are, I don't think one leads a user to the other, and I even suspect that it would make sense to own both (as indulgent as that would be).

They're both great great products.
--Chris

[samplermike]

I have worn Kouros since 1988. My GF at the time used to spray it all over me at the perfume counters because she loved it. I'm going to go out this weekend and test some on my skin to see if I like it.

[bbobkc]

This is from DustB in an older thread and after wearing them both a while I concur wholeheartedly. Thanks guys.

Quote: I'd say Kouros says the same things Orange Spice does, but Kouros suffers from a bit of deafness in both ears. Therefore Kouros talks louder in polite company

[DustB]

This is from DustB in an older thread and after wearing them both a while I concur wholeheartedly. Thanks guys.

Quote: I'd say Kouros says the same things Orange Spice does, but Kouros suffers from a bit of deafness in both ears. Therefore Kouros talks louder in polite company

Well well well. I surpass myself sometimes. I wrote that up pretty good.

[bbobkc]

Well well well. I surpass myself sometimes. I wrote that up pretty good.

Yeah Chris, you got it goin' on.

[pluran]

Inititally there's a mild congruence, but that's short-lived. One obvious difference is that Kouros is a fougère and Orange Spice is a soft oriental. Another monumental difference is that Kouros is built on a massive framework (probably one of the largest in perfumery) while Orange Spice is built on an itsy bitsy teeny tiny one and, like many Creeds, generally just poops out without much interest beyond the first forty-five minutes or so.

Kouros (Bourdon's masterpiece) is just out of f*cking sight, and for those who haven't figured it out, it is meant to be worn underneath your shirt and on your clothes. The same goes for many fragrances. Spraying it on your wrists and all that other girly stuff isn't the way to do it.

I also found out that the info about Bourdon being inspired by Orange Spice (which is included in my original review of Orange Spice) is a total load of BS.

[zztopp]

Inititally there's a mild congruence, but that's short-lived. One obvious difference is that Kouros is a fougère and Orange Spice is a soft oriental. Another monumental difference is that Kouros is built on a massive framework (probably one of the largest in perfumery) while Orange Spice is built on an itsy bitsy teeny tiny one and, like many Creeds, generally just poops out without much interest beyond the first forty-five minutes or so.

I wonder if thats also your opinion of many Ellena fragrances, which maybe use 8 ingredients at most and have a natural albeit sparse framework.

I don't know about the Bourdon being inspired by Orange Spice rumors but I would like to know where and by whom it was refuted or confirmed.

[samplermike]

Pierre Bourdon copied Green Irish Tweed (Cool Water) as well as Orange Spice (Kouros) so that the average Joe on a budget could smell like a million bucks too.

[zztopp]

Pierre Bourdon copied Green Irish Tweed (Cool Water) as well as Orange Spice (Kouros) so that the average Joe on a budget could smell like a million bucks too.

Dude I love Creed fragrances as well but damn how many times are you going to repeat that same line ?

[samplermike]

Dude I love Creed fragrances as well but damn how many times are you going to repeat that same line ?

I counted twice. Is there a limit?

[bbobkc]

Pierre Bourdon copied Green Irish Tweed (Cool Water) as well as Orange Spice (Kouros) so that the average Joe on a budget could smell like a million bucks too.

I never knew that. Thanks. Nice that someone is looking out for us poor folk.

[Scentologist]

Yes, I knew those two were copied for those reasons but I never knew the perfumer behind it so, thanks!

[Rockford]

Pierre Bourdon copied Green Irish Tweed (Cool Water) as well as Orange Spice (Kouros) so that the average Joe on a budget could smell like a million bucks too.

And Green Irish Tweed is a copy of Crown Marquis. In fact, Crown Marquis is much, much better than GIT.

[moon_fish]

Pierre Bourdon copied Green Irish Tweed (Cool Water) as well as Orange Spice (Kouros) so that the average Joe on a budget could smell like a million bucks too.

who do you think perfumers are? xeroxs?

[narcus]

Pierre Bourdon copied Green Irish Tweed (Cool Water) as well as Orange Spice (Kouros) so that the average Joe on a budget could smell like a million bucks too.

My nose says 'no!' in both cases. But maybe you can substantiate your allegation to be a little more convincing? Creed are always rather secretive about actual ingredients used.

There is a difference between copies and forward developments. All art, science, and business progresses that way! GIT and Cool Water are both popular fragrances, and have strong legs of their own. Cool Water, has been acknowledged by experts as the quintessential aqua, or one that other aquatic fragrances were based upon. The French Associataion of Perfumers celebrated P. Bourdon as an innovator, not top copier if I remember correctly. The idea that Yves SL and Bourdon would have felt inspired to come up with nothing better than a citrus (again) is simply absurd. No one put them under pressure either. 1950 and 1980 - that were two different generations, in fact different epochs altogether in Europe's fashion and perfume world (except for Creed maybe)! Orange Spice must have been too old a hat to copy for the eighties .

Michael Edwards describes Orange Spice (soft oriental, unisex) as follows: "Spicy and fruity with delicious orange. Aromatic, fresh, mysterious and spicy with a powdery dry down, for those who appreciate a long lasting citrus." I have nothing to add or take away from that. A fine, orange fragrance indeed, slightly spicy, and quite powdery. The same author describes Kouros, 'a chypre, spicy harmony' with similar precision: "The fragrance of the triumphant masculinity: a divine and conquering fragrance for a powerful and intense scent."

How is it possible that men in the whole world (not just freaks) still speak of, and buy Kouros while only a fraction of afficionados know of Orange Spice?

"Basenotes says:Creed say that this fragrance is enjoyed by Michael Jackson..."

[chad278]

Pierre Bourdon copied Green Irish Tweed (Cool Water) as well as Orange Spice (Kouros) so that the average Joe on a budget could smell like a million bucks too.

cool water and green irish tweed are similar in that i think they're booth poor fragrances. i wouldn't shame the masterpeice that is kouros (i appreciate it without wearing it) by comparing it to orange spice.

[P-Natra]

both are fantastic...Kouros was one of my first fragrances. It will always be a classic. Don´t matter what other Basenoters writes (piss and so on)...I would never come to this...some crazy noses out there or bad skin chemstry

[samplermike]

And Green Irish Tweed is a copy of Crown Marquis. In fact, Crown Marquis is much, much better than GIT.

Err, umm, Green Irish Tweed was originally commissioned for King Alfonso XIII of Spain in 1901 and released commercially to the public in 1985. Nice try though...

[P-Natra]

GIT is a classic...suits to everybody, anytime, anywhere, anyhow!!!

[chad278]

it doesn't suit me, but i recognise it has quite a loyal following.

[Rockford]

Err, umm, Green Irish Tweed was originally commissioned for King Alfonso XIII of Spain in 1901 and released commercially to the public in 1985. Nice try though...

What absolute nonsense! It's hilarious that now Green Irish Tweed is being credited to some king. I always heard that it was made for Cary Grant. Recently, though, I think I read a post claiming it is Selection Verte that was made for Cary Grant. But then, how many times in the past have I heard that Selection Verte was actually made for Napoleon and then for Sigmund Freud? If the Creed public relations department is going to propagate this nonsense, then they should at least get their stories straight.

[zztopp]

My nose says 'no!' in both cases. But maybe you can substantiate your allegation to be a little more convincing? Creed are always rather secretive about actual ingredients used.

There is a difference between copies and forward developments. All art, science, and business progresses that way! GIT and Cool Water are both popular fragrances, and have strong legs of their own. Cool Water, has been acknowledged by experts as the quintessential aqua, or one that other aquatic fragrances were based upon. The French Associataion of Perfumers celebrated P. Bourdon as an innovator, not top copier if I remember correctly. The idea that Yves SL and Bourdon would have felt inspired to come up with nothing better than a citrus (again) is simply absurd. No one put them under pressure either. 1950 and 1980 - that were two different generation, in fact different epochs altogether in Europe's fashion and perfume world (except for Creed maybe)! Orange Spice must have been too old a hat to copy for the eighties .

Michael Edwards describes Orange Spice (soft oriental, unisex) as follows: "Spicy and fruity with delicious orange. Aromatic, fresh, mysterious and spicy with a powdery dry down, for those who appreciate a long lasting citrus." I have nothing to add or take away from that. A fine, orange fragrance indeed, slightly spicy, and a quite powdery. The same author describes Kouros, 'a chypre, spicy harmony' with similar precision: "The fragrance of the triumphant masculinity: a divine and conquering fragrance for a powerful and intense scent."

How is it possible that men in the whole world (not just freaks) still speak of, and buy Kouros while only a fraction of afficionados know of Orange Spice?

"Basenotes says:Creed say that this fragrance is enjoyed by Michael Jackson..."

Don't know about the Kouros/Orange Spice "official connection" but for what its worth, even Luca Turin says that Cool Water is strongly inspired by GIT (Parfums Le Guide: 1994, page 21 and page 33)...in that same guide he has very positive reviews of GIT and Erolfa.

As to why more people know about Kouros? Perhaps the fact that Creed is a tiny company and until the early 2000s had very limited distribution has to do with it? Cool Water is also known to more people than GIT but to my nose there is no way its better than GIT.

[samplermike]

What absolute nonsense! It's hilarious that now Green Irish Tweed is being credited to some king. I always heard that it was made for Cary Grant. Recently, though, I think I read a post claiming it is Selection Verte that was made for Cary Grant. But then, how many times in the past have I heard that Selection Verte was actually made for Napoleon and then for Sigmund Freud? If the Creed public relations department is going to propagate this nonsense, then they should at least get their stories straight.

If they were wrong they would have been sued by the estate of Cary Grant and Sigmund Freud. I want to see an article showing this was the case and how the claim was settled.

[DustB]

Gents, this thread is about similarities and dissimilarities between specific products by YSL and Creed. I'd appreciate it if the discussion could continue about those two scents and what they are AS scents. I'd rather the discussion not become Creed promotions and sales methods.

Let's stick to the scents as smells on this one please.
--Chris

[samplermike]

cool water and green irish tweed are similar in that i think they're booth poor fragrances. i wouldn't shame the masterpeice that is kouros (i appreciate it without wearing it) by comparing it to orange spice.

I remember a joke in the 80's heyday of Kouros: what's the difference between a man and a pig? Answer: A pig doesn't smell like a man when wearing Kouros. I'm sure what people are now smelling/enjoying is a reformulation of Kouros. It sure did smell like piss in the 80's from what my friends and I remember. Bourdon just cleaned it up a bit to cater to the mass market and enjoy an early retirement. Now it really smells like a ripoff of Orange Spice.

[Jock_With_Scents]

Unfortunately money can't buy good taste or humility.

If Kouros was created for average joes to smell like a million bucks then Bourdon is a success in his effort.
Orange Spice is wonderful as well, a little more understated IMO.

[randumbsmellyguy]

I smell a similarity, although I'm only going by a sample of Orange Spice. Must get a full bottle of this...:-)

I wear Kouros more often but there are times when Orange Spice would be a better fit, particularly under more formal circumstances. Kouros can be a beast to me, while Orange Spice can feel like Kouros after some etiquette lessons, a new wardrobe and a small fortune inherited from a distant relative.

They're both great and somewhat alike to my Neanderthal nose (pluran is right that Kouros is more fougere while OS is more oriental), but I think Kouros is different enough not to be a mere carbon copy.

[Scentologist]

I agree. My wardrobe consists of moderately priced fragrances to the very expensive. I find myself reaching more for the moderately priced. Does this mean that for me price makes a difference? No. It means that there are alot of exceptionally wonderful fragrances out there that shakes the core foundation of many niche and expensive fragrances. Some of my expensive frags are listed in my drobe and some are not. However, for days now, I have been reaching, longing for my Jazz. I wished they made matching shower products.

I am about to contact a boutique in regard to the purchase of Kouros, that is, if I can get the nerve!

[samplermike]

Feuille Verte by Creed is another scent just begging to be ripped off. There were only 100 flacons released on Father's Day 2006 for $375. That's it. It's an unbelievable fragrance that seems well ahead of it's time. I'm sure the people at Bond have their paws on a sample right now and are working day and night to copy it. In 10 or 20 years when Creed finally releases Feuille Verte as part of their regular collection, some wiseguy will say "That smells just like Bond xxx". Someone else will chime in "No, Creed actually released that first back in 2006 and Bond copied it". And these debates will go on and on and on and on...
Perfumers copy each other. Always have, always will. Kouros and Cool Water are no exception.

[DustB]

Very interesting.

Kouros and Orange Spice. Great pieces of living life, no?

[Bromo33333]

"Copying" and moving down-market are how the entire fashion industry works.

[Scentologist]

I said it before and I will say it again, Feuille Verte is a very fine, fine fragrance. It smells soooo wonderful. I had the money to get it, signed bottle and all. After testing it in Neimans, I could only live in it's glory for all of 5 minutes. I just couldn't pay $400 for that kind of longevity no matter how dam good it smelled.

Back to kouros, I am still trying to get the nerves worked up.

[pluran]

I wonder if thats also your opinion of many Ellena fragrances, which maybe use 8 ingredients at most and have a natural albeit sparse framework.

I know what you're sayin but you can bet they contain a lot more than eight ingredients (so does any fragrance outside of natural perfumery), and though often subtle, I find Ellena's stuff infinitely more interesting, complex and skillfully blended than most Creeds.

[moon_fish]

If they were wrong they would have been sued by the estate of Cary Grant and Sigmund Freud. I want to see an article showing this was the case and how the claim was settled.

If Bourdon were wrong and really copied Creed frags - he would have been sued by Creed either.
So far - I`d like to see the article showing the case too

[narcus]

...for what its worth, even Luca Turin says that Cool Water is strongly inspired by GIT (Parfums Le Guide: 1994, page 21 and page 33)...in that same guide he has very positive reviews of GIT and Erolfa.

In case you didn’t notice, Dr. Turin never bothers writing negative reviews, he just ignores such perfumes. I am doubly grateful for that, now that we have others who enjoy doing exactly the opposite. GIT (‘predecssor’) and Cool Water (émule', which stands for ‘emulator, one taking after…, imitator in English) are mentioned together again in the review of ‘Photo’, p. 59 of Le Guide. Also his reviews of Jazz and Tsar refer back to Green Irish Tweed. To discover and describe olfactive connections, rather than playing one perfumer against another, that’s the spirit! As actually two other perfumes were the main topic here: Dr.Turin also had friendly words for Orange Spice, I remember. I have just forgotten where. But the best review I have seen written of Kouros can also be found in Le Guide* (p. 41).

For those seriously interested in matters of plagiarism and artistic liberty I recommend this article by Luca Turin.
J-C Elena also talks about this, as a most credible insider, in Ch. Burrs new book: The Perfect Scent / Henry Holt & Company


Parfums, Le Guide, Paris 1994, written in French, is available to everybody thanks to Dr.L..Turin

[samplermike]

If Bourdon were wrong and really copied Creed frags - he would have been sued by Creed either.
So far - I`d like to see the article showing the case too

Fragrances are copied all the time without lawsuits.

[Jock_With_Scents]

Pierre Bourdon copied Green Irish Tweed (Cool Water) as well as Orange Spice (Kouros) so that the average Joe on a budget could smell like a million bucks too.

Bourdon just cleaned it up a bit to cater to the mass market and enjoy an early retirement. Now it really smells like a ripoff of Orange Spice.

Well, I don’t think “copied” or “ripoff” are the right words. I prefer Samplermike’s logic in NearFantastica’s Joop revelation thread, http://community.basenotes.net/showthread.php?t=206305, where he says:

Creed Original Santal is like a modern version of Joop.

Odd that negative terms and lawsuits come up. I don’t know why complimentary descriptions didn’t come up. Like a modern version of Orange Spice. That’s the way to phrase it.

[Scentologist]

I can see where one might draw a linear connection between Original Santal and Joop but I don't believe they are alike. I can't tolerate either of them. That is the similarity I draw.

[zztopp]

I know what you're sayin but you can bet they contain a lot more than eight ingredients (so does any fragrance outside of natural perfumery), and though often subtle, I find Ellena's stuff infinitely more interesting, complex and skillfully blended than most Creeds.

That comment is a little too fanboy like for me for I definitely disagree there - slamming Creed fragrances for their lightness in light of (no pun intended) Ellena fragrances with brittle construction and muted presence like au The Verte, Declaration, Angelique sous, Cologne Bigarade, Paprika Brasil and Brin de Reglisse is interesting. But we all have different opinions and I guess we are going off topic here.

Narcus, I agree with your observations on the differences in classification of Orange Spice and Kouros by Edwards; Kouros has a more congested and different drydown. As for Turins reviews, I was a bit suprised by his positive comments on GIT, Erolfa and BdP because I view him as very anti-Villoresi and anti-Creed.

[chad278]

now Brin de Reglisse, that's a killer. i think i've been banned from the hermes store from over-sampling this one...

[AZsmells]

I've owned both and found them similar but different enough to make it worth owning both. Orange Spice smells a bit cleaner but interestingly enough I don't smell much orange in it. I don't think Kouros is "dirty" like many say but to me it is more interesting than Orange Spice.

[moon_fish]

Fragrances are copied all the time without lawsuits.

It is not true.
Find an article about some lawsuits dealing with L`Oreal fragrances like Dune and its Bellure copies.
It is just the very first case, I believe.

I want to see more, by the way. But by any means - Kouros YSL and Bourdon is in the hall of fame (Fifi awards, as far as I can recollect), but Orange Spice and Creed did not get any prizes or awards.

But you can give him your own prize - that will be nice

[samplermike]

I want to see more, by the way. But by any means - Kouros YSL and Bourdon is in the hall of fame (Fifi awards, as far as I can recollect), but Orange Spice and Creed did not get any prizes or awards.

I don't think any fragrance awards even existed way back in 1948 when Orange Spice was created. I don't buy products based on "awards". Why would someone care what others thought about their preferred fragrance anyway? I'm glad I'm not that insecure.

[Jock_With_Scents]

I don't think any fragrance awards even existed way back in 1948 when Orange Spice was created. I don't buy products based on "awards". Why would someone care what others thought about their preferred fragrance anyway? I'm glad I'm not that insecure.

We are glad that you are not insecure too.

[jdnba]

i think its funny that kouros has such a loyal following. I have tried it many times and it smells like shit on me...literally. I would get the same effect if i deficated and then just didnt wipe...sorry to be graphic, but imo thats what kouros smells like...or like you have dog feces on your shoe.

More importantly, it still strikes me every time when i read that this frag is the baby making frag of choice. It surprises me that women like this frag. A lot of you have agreed that the fecal note exists in this one and yet for some reason ladies still dig it.

I have not tried Creed OS, but next time i go to saks, I am going to try it.

[samplermike]

I have tried it many times and it smells like shit on me...literally.

To quote the venerable Forrest Gump: "'It' happens".

[Jock_With_Scents]

i think its funny that kouros has such a loyal following. I have tried it many times and it smells like shit on me...literally. I would get the same effect if i deficated and then just didnt wipe...sorry to be graphic, but imo thats what kouros smells like...or like you have dog feces on your shoe.

More importantly, it still strikes me every time when i read that this frag is the baby making frag of choice. It surprises me that women like this frag. A lot of you have agreed that the fecal note exists in this one and yet for some reason ladies still dig it.

I have not tried Creed OS, but next time i go to saks, I am going to try it.

LOL! And I suppose MKK and Kiehls Musk smell wonderful to you from previous posts? Crazy how all our perceptions are so different. But that is what makes the board so special. I could get graphic too on how MKK and Kiehls Musk smell to me, but I prefer to say, they just didn't work for me, but they obviously work for others.

[jdnba]

LOL! And I suppose MKK and Kiehls Musk smell wonderful to you from previous posts? Crazy how all our perceptions are so different. But that is what makes the board so special. I could get graphic too on how MKK and Kiehls Musk smell to me, but I prefer to say, they just didn't work for me, but they obviously work for others.

ha ha...yeah, body chemistry is such a crazy thing. Your right, MKK is my holy grail and i love kiehls to death...but its funny that kiehls smells better on my friend than on me....I think i will give kouros another try and see whats what, but now my interest level is high on Orange Spice!

[fredricktoo]

Perhaps the fact that Creed is a tiny company and until the early 2000s had very limited distribution has to do with it? Cool Water is also known to more people than GIT but to my nose there is no way its better than GIT.

I've never seen a Creed advertisement if my memory serves me. I wish I has a dime for every Cool Water ad I've seen in glossy magazines.

and except for cigar aficionados who ever heard of Davidoff before Cool Water?

in the broadest sense no body in the "arts" copies originals. They use them as "inspiration"

[Ender]

i think its funny that kouros has such a loyal following. I have tried it many times and it smells like shit on me...literally. I would get the same effect if i deficated and then just didnt wipe...sorry to be graphic, but imo thats what kouros smells like...or like you have dog feces on your shoe.

More importantly, it still strikes me every time when i read that this frag is the baby making frag of choice. It surprises me that women like this frag. A lot of you have agreed that the fecal note exists in this one and yet for some reason ladies still dig it.

I have not tried Creed OS, but next time i go to saks, I am going to try it.

Everyone has the right to have an opinion. I like Kouros a lot. It's a wonderful scent. Wonderfully structured. Fresh without being citric. Sweet without beeing cloying. And yes it has an edge thanks to that considerable amount of civet. And the ladies sure like it.

[jenson]

Kouros - how cud one hate this...the classic is made in the same vain as is polo classic...not similar smell but the drift...i just love every colonge released to date by kouros & YSL...they have the most unusual notes in them..

[Zerby]

I did try it out on my arm. I liked it a lot. Different from the other Creeds. Wound up getting Original Santal though. Orange Spice might be my next Creed purchase. I does smell like Kouros.

[moon_fish]

I don't think any fragrance awards even existed way back in 1948 when Orange Spice was created. I don't buy products based on "awards". Why would someone care what others thought about their preferred fragrance anyway? I'm glad I'm not that insecure.

Yes, there were no awards those times. That`s sure.
I`m rather would believe that Orange Spice was created in 1948, than it wasn`t good enough to deserve some good words since then. 60 years! Jubilee!!!

Well, more seriously.
Usually I keep an eye on awards - it helps to know flows and tendencies, and sometimes gave another chance for the perfumes unfairly forgotten. And it happens and works with me & Kouros.
Best regards to you and your nose