Code of Conduct

View Poll Results: Why do you dislike or are uninterested in all natural perfumes?

Voters
79. You may not vote on this poll
  • Haven't heard of them

    18 22.78%
  • Prices are too high

    13 16.46%
  • Quantities tend to be too low (often 5-10ml)

    11 13.92%
  • Dislike longevity of natural perfumes

    14 17.72%
  • Dislike projection of natural perfumes

    7 8.86%
  • Believe scents are limited due to all natural ingredients

    16 20.25%
  • Believe the perfumers are amateurs and offer an inferior product

    9 11.39%
  • Not me. I actually really like natural perfumes

    20 25.32%
  • Other

    14 17.72%
Multiple Choice Poll.
Results 1 to 50 of 50
  1. #1

    Question Why aren't all natural perfumes talked about more?

    There are a lot of ultra-niche natural perfumers, Anya McCoy, Ayala Sender (she seems to be the only one mentioned around here), Mandy Aftel and Afterlier perfumes, Artemisia all natural perfumes, etc, but they never seem to get mentioned here on Basenotes. There are a lot of reasons this could be. Please choose the best option(s) (you can choose multiple options) from the poll above describing why you haven't tried or don't care about all natural perfumes, and elaborate more in a reply.
    Last edited by SculptureOfSoul; 29th February 2008 at 10:51 AM.
    ***For sale:

    Iris Pallida 50ml

    Ungaro I 75ml

    and more!
    - http://www.basenotes.net/threads/301...n-Man-and-more

  2. #2

    Default Re: Why aren't all natural perfumes talked about more?

    Hmm, I've been wanting to try out a lot of different natural perfumes
    - Ayala Moriel (Think that's what Ayala Senders lines called)
    - Ava Luxe
    - Black Phoenix Alchemy Labs (Does this count?)
    - Madini Oils (Does this count :P?)

    But, unfortunately samples are htf/pricey and as they're less publicised, I tend to go for the easier to obtain things first I don't question the perfumer's skill, as the reviews i've read, have spoken for themselves.

    The price is a bit high in comparison to the quantity (Ayala Moriel, mainly), but then again, they are super exclusive and hand made I can't fully comment about anything else, without trying some first, and thanks to Pellen, i'll be receiving some sexy Ava Luxe samples

  3. #3

    Default Re: Why aren't all natural perfumes talked about more?

    Black Phoenix definitely does not count, as it is clear they use fragrance oils based on the notes in some (many) of their blends. Madini I will have to look into. I can't say I know much about them.
    ***For sale:

    Iris Pallida 50ml

    Ungaro I 75ml

    and more!
    - http://www.basenotes.net/threads/301...n-Man-and-more

  4. #4

    Default Re: Why aren't all natural perfumes talked about more?

    Hmm, okay, what do you mean by they use fragrance oils based on the notes in many of their blends? After I get my Ava Luxe samples i'll be able to comment, and I also may order a small sampler pack off Ayala Moriel, any that you reccomend, and whats the difference between the oil and the extrait, which one has more projection and longevity (Nothing more than 8 hours, and as much projection and sillage as possible please ;D!)

  5. #5
    Dependent pluran's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Pacific Northwest
    Posts
    6,747

    Default

    They often smell good but usually aren't very satisfying - similar to Creeds, which are far from all-natural, and make abundant use of synthetics, but still can't satisfy.

    .
    Last edited by pluran; 27th May 2008 at 08:33 PM.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Why aren't all natural perfumes talked about more?

    I am not familiar with the natural offerings myself, so I can't make any recommendations, sadly. Regarding my comments about BPAL - they often have notes in a perfume that simply aren't obtainable in any way from a natural source (most fruits, certain flowers such as honeysuckle, violet flower [oil can only be extracted from the leaves], etc.).

    Hopefully Ayala or some of the others mentioned will chime in here and shed some light on their offerings.
    ***For sale:

    Iris Pallida 50ml

    Ungaro I 75ml

    and more!
    - http://www.basenotes.net/threads/301...n-Man-and-more

  7. #7

    Default Re: Why aren't all natural perfumes talked about more?

    I live in a place where even Hermes is not available from shops, and niche brand Creed is sold in only ONE shop, so I guess it's a real long shot that one can find those ultra-exclusive stuff here.

    And in a world where Creed and Amouage are already considered luxury by most, the more ultra-niche brands are simply inaccessible to most humans.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Why aren't all natural perfumes talked about more?

    Quote Originally Posted by pluran View Post
    Apparently many people like them, but it's been my experience that they often smell great but generally aren't all that satisfying.

    I love my essential oils though.
    Just curious in which manner they aren't satisfying? (hope this doesn't sound like I'm trying to make you defend yourself - i'm not - I'm really just curious, tis all. )
    ***For sale:

    Iris Pallida 50ml

    Ungaro I 75ml

    and more!
    - http://www.basenotes.net/threads/301...n-Man-and-more

  9. #9

    Default Re: Why aren't all natural perfumes talked about more?

    I would love love love to find blends of natural fragrant oils that were wearable and smelt like a million bucks. In fact, I'm experimenting with my own batches at home.

    Any really good classy ones out there?

  10. #10

    Default Re: Why aren't all natural perfumes talked about more?

    I don't like the way most of them smell!

  11. #11

    Default Re: Why aren't all natural perfumes talked about more?

    Perhaps they turn rancid before anyone can form a solid opinion on them... Natural = goes bad quickly...
    Check out my fragrances for sale at Crystal Flacon - NEW! Updated - Click Here!
    Creed, Bond No.9, Montale, Frederic Malle, Le Labo, Amouage
    Niche Fragrances / Women's Fragrances / Men's Fragrances

  12. #12

    Default Re: Why aren't all natural perfumes talked about more?

    I never heard of the all-natural fragrances other than oils. I don't like most of oils because they vanish soon and are pretty one-dimensional.
    I don't think that I have access to the creations from the above mentioned perfumers because of where I am located currently and also because I assume they would be quite expensive.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Why aren't all natural perfumes talked about more?

    I had to pick "other" - I believe a fragrance has to smell good to begin with - and it does not matter to me if it is synthetic or natural.

    So I may have a few natural scents, and some with synthetic scent chemicals in it.
    ===
    “… [I] recall thinking that the computer would never advance much further than this. Call me naïve, but I seemed to have underestimated the universal desire to sit in a hard plastic chair and stare at a screen until your eyes cross.” ~ David Sedaris

  14. #14

    Default Re: Why aren't all natural perfumes talked about more?

    I have to ellaborate a bit: Many of the topnotes are citrus or spice are are often just too pungent and sour for my skin. Flower essences are very tricky. Some of them can smell burnt, sour, or even chemical in their concentrations. They often don't smell like the live flower, but as if they were cooked, or worse, embalmed. Many rose essences smell like...pickles! I used to only want to wear natural perfumes but because of the sour, dirty, and dead notes, I am expanding my horizons. They just frustrate me, really. I want them to be naturally wonderful, magic elixers, but I don't have any in my wardrobe right now. White Lotus aromatics sent me some samples of their perfumes that I don't think are even for sale, and they are the most pleasent I have ever experienced in the floral realm. Eden Botanicals (as I think I've said 1,000 times) has the yummiest ambers ever, but they feel like "hippie perfume" to me now. I'm sure there are others, but I have been let down more often than not.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Why aren't all natural perfumes talked about more?

    Quote Originally Posted by SculptureOfSoul View Post
    There are a lot of ultra-niche natural perfumers, Anya McCoy, Ayala Sender (she seems to be the only one mentioned around here), Mandy Aftel and Afterlier perfumes, Artemisia all natural perfumes, etc, but they never seem to get mentioned here on Basenotes. There are a lot of reasons this could be. Please choose the best option(s) (you can choose multiple options) from the poll above describing why you haven't tried or don't care about all natural perfumes, and elaborate more in a reply.
    cuz they usually smell bad and no one other than tree huggers really care??? was that an option?? :P

  16. #16

    Default Re: Why aren't all natural perfumes talked about more?

    Quote Originally Posted by lookingglass View Post
    I have to ellaborate a bit: Many of the topnotes are citrus or spice are are often just too pungent and sour for my skin. Flower essences are very tricky. Some of them can smell burnt, sour, or even chemical in their concentrations. They often don't smell like the live flower, but as if they were cooked, or worse, embalmed..
    Do you think this is an inevitability with natural perfumes, or just a result of poor or improper blending?
    ***For sale:

    Iris Pallida 50ml

    Ungaro I 75ml

    and more!
    - http://www.basenotes.net/threads/301...n-Man-and-more

  17. #17

    Default Re: Why aren't all natural perfumes talked about more?

    Download record of Luca Turin's now defunct blog from here: http://lucaturin.typepad.com/; and see a bemusing/amusing/entertaining/enlightening debate on the topic. Some of the natural perfumers mentioned in this thread participated in the debate.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Why aren't all natural perfumes talked about more?

    Quote Originally Posted by SculptureOfSoul View Post
    Do you think this is an inevitability with natural perfumes, or just a result of poor or improper blending?
    If a rose essence smells like "pickles" it may just be the quality of the materials used - I don't know if its inherent in the absolutes and essential oils or if it is the oils and abolutes used. Making good perfumes - synthetically based or non synthetically based - it probably limited by the quality of materials used.

    I would love tog et a perfume book that detailed why the perfume companies started changing ingredients.
    Last edited by Bromo33333; 1st March 2008 at 11:07 AM.
    ===
    “… [I] recall thinking that the computer would never advance much further than this. Call me naïve, but I seemed to have underestimated the universal desire to sit in a hard plastic chair and stare at a screen until your eyes cross.” ~ David Sedaris

  19. #19

    Default Re: Why aren't all natural perfumes talked about more?

    Quote Originally Posted by lunarpanic View Post
    Download record of Luca Turin's now defunct blog from here: http://lucaturin.typepad.com/; and see a bemusing/amusing/entertaining/enlightening debate on the topic. Some of the natural perfumers mentioned in this thread participated in the debate.
    I suspect, Luca Turin got (understandably) tired of the subject and it's proponents after a while. When that discussion didn't seem to come to an end he closed his blog altogether. The idea had originally been to discuss 'Duftnote' articles with his English speaking audience worldwide. It's amazing how much attention this blog got retroactively. I hardly lasted for more than six months .

    I had to pick other because I don't know which of the industrially made colognes / perfumes are still made with enough natural ingredients to call them 'natural'. Is there a standard, and who watches this for the consumer? Profumo.it offers a variety of perfumes for men and women at reasonable prices. From what i can smell, they seem to be based on natural oils. Tauer started with an emphasis on natural essences. He is rather vague describing this aspect of his perfumes now, saying they are not only based on natural fragrances. I am mostly interested in what those ancient firms in Grasse use now, or if there are still colognes made on essences used 150 years ago?

    I just finished the Grasse / Paris chapters of the 'Perfect Scent' - and am completely disillusioned concerning the old fragrance pyramid. I think behind each petitgrain, orange flower, rose or sandalwood is some chemists formula nowadays. Maybe the houses still grant their concoctions one extra drop of natural jasmine for the image. The bulk, however may originate from some chemical plant in China controlled by Givaudan, IFF or another of the Big Five!
    Last edited by narcus; 2nd March 2008 at 07:03 AM.
    'Il mondo dei profumi è un universo senza limiti: una fraganza puo rievocare sensazioni, luoghi, persone o ancora condurre in uno spazio di nuove dimensioni emozionali' L. V.

  20. #20

    Default Re:

    "Why aren't all natural perfumes talked about more?"


    Because they are not Creed, that's why .
    Are you not entertained??? Is this not why you are here??

  21. #21

    Default Re: Why aren't all natural perfumes talked about more?

    Quote Originally Posted by lunarpanic View Post
    Download record of Luca Turin's now defunct blog from here: http://lucaturin.typepad.com/; and see a bemusing/amusing/entertaining/enlightening debate on the topic. Some of the natural perfumers mentioned in this thread participated in the debate.
    I suspect, Luca Turin got (understandably) tired of the subject and it's proponents after a while. When that discussion didn't seem to come to an end he closed his blog altogether. The idea had originally been to discuss 'Duftnote' articles with his English speaking audience worldwide. It's amazing how much attention this blog got retroactively. I hardly lasted for more than six months .

    I had to pick other because I don't know which of the industrially made colognes / perfumes are still made with enough natural ingredients to call them 'natural'. Is there a standard, and who watches this for the consumer? Profumo.it offers a variety of perfumes for men and women at reasonable prices. From what i can smell, they seem to be based on natural oils. Tauer started with an emphasis on natural essences. He is rather vague describing this aspect of his perfumes now, saying they are not only based on natural fragrances. I am mostly interested in what those ancient firms in Grasse use now, or if there are still colognes made on essences used 150 years ago?
    'Il mondo dei profumi è un universo senza limiti: una fraganza puo rievocare sensazioni, luoghi, persone o ancora condurre in uno spazio di nuove dimensioni emozionali' L. V.

  22. #22

    Default Re: Why aren't all natural perfumes talked about more?

    There isn't that much info out there about them, is there? My hunch is that they might tend to be of a more linear nature, have shorter longevity and projection.

    Our ability to isolate from nature and then to "wear" amazing scents, is what I find the most fascinating about fragrances.
    Last edited by Delmar; 27th May 2008 at 03:34 PM.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Why aren't all natural perfumes talked about more?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bromo33333 View Post
    If a rose essence smells like "pickles" it may just be the quality of the materials used - I don't know if its inherent in the absolutes and essential oils or if it is the oils and abolutes used. Making good perfumes - synthetically based or non synthetically based - it probably limited by the quality of materials used.

    I would love tog et a perfume book that detailed why the perfume companies started changing ingredients.
    to give a more serious answer than my last one, I'd say its because most of the smells we have come to associate with perfume are created with synthetic chemicals, iso super E, hediones, ketones, aldehydes, and of course things such as musk and ambergris must now due to legalities be made from synthetic components. Perfume simply wouldn't be the same without these key ingredients. I'd say perfumers started changing the ingredients as soon as synthetics were invented, they looked towards better things. Ancient perfumes probably smelled pretty bad (in comparison to today's). many of the old perfumes were also soliflores, I'd imagine most people would probably be shocked at how simple and dull old perfumes must have been since we all look to the past with rose coloured glasses :P The reason they are not talked about now is because they are simply not a viable product, its like trying to sell horse drawn carriages today - the market would be very very small !!

    edit: let me just add in here that I have made a pretty successfull knock off of JPG le male using only about 20 all natural substances. It does miss some of the chemical je ne sais quoi that makes le male what it is, so I suppose its not IMPOSSIBLE to make good all natural perfumes... I suppose I just don't see a point of it ?
    Last edited by smellyliquid; 2nd March 2008 at 08:46 AM.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Why aren't all natural perfumes talked about more?

    Interesting results so far. The appeal of them, to me, is their intrinsic connection to nature. I can't speak for everyone but perfume is an aesthetic choice for me, and it is somehow more rewarding in some kind of spiritual sense (ironic, since I'm agnostic) to know that what I'm wearing has essences of plants that were growing in Madagascar, Tunisia, Russia, India, etc. There is also the human element, as many of the plants/flowers have to be hand harvested. Perfume is romantic or at least should be evocative of romance, and there's nothing romantic, in my opinion, about the thought of 150 petroleum derived chemicals floating around in a jar of alcohol. Yes, in the end it all comes down to the smell, but to me it's the difference between getting a handwritten and typed letter. The words are the same, but the handwritten letter is undeniably more human, and more touching.
    ***For sale:

    Iris Pallida 50ml

    Ungaro I 75ml

    and more!
    - http://www.basenotes.net/threads/301...n-Man-and-more

  25. #25

    Default Re: Why aren't all natural perfumes talked about more?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bromo33333 View Post
    I had to pick "other" - I believe a fragrance has to smell good to begin with - and it does not matter to me if it is synthetic or natural.

    So I may have a few natural scents, and some with synthetic scent chemicals in it.
    I second that opinion. I love classic (=all natural) Eau de Cologne and I lean towards houses known for the use of a high percentage of top notch natural oils (Creed, Villoresi, Lutens), but I've never heard a convincing argument in favor of an all-natural perfume. In terms of health risks or allergies naturals are not principally safer, in terms of craft using naturals can be very limiting, though some may find it a challenge for its own sake, like painting with your feet. Many natural perfumers have backgrounds in aromatherapy, but it's feeling, not healing that's important to me when donning a fragrance. I use specific essential oils for the other purpose. Many "commercial" natural perfumes, the kind you can buy here in Germany at organic (food) stores are terribly composed - short lived and shrill, with little sophistication, often just a hodgepodge of essential oil smells. I've tried a number of Florascents - many are awful, some are nice, but their naturalness certainly does not give them an advantage.
    My Wardrobe
    II est de forts parfums pour qui toute matière/Est poreuse. On dirait qu'ils pénètrent le verre.

  26. #26

    Default Re: Why aren't all natural perfumes talked about more?

    Thanks for all of the interesting responses, guys.

    One thing I can definitely say that is a pro to the all natural frags I've worn is that they haven't ever bothered my sinuses or felt 'oppressive' in a way that some synthetic frags can. Of course to my nose, oppressive is more a quality of the manner in which the scent assaults the nostrils rather than the scent itself (e.g. The "texture" of Body Kouros being so thick and strong).

    A simple example is this - when heading to the gym, the dying basenotes of a synthetic frag can flare up with some heat and sweat on the treadmill and become absolutely nauseating, while I've never had a similar reaction with an all natural frag. Perhaps this is due to the therapeutic qualities of essential oils, perhaps it is just a placebo effect built upon expectations, or perhaps it's something else entirely, but at least for me it is very true.

    I wonder if a quality all natural frag came out at a reasonable price, say similarly priced in comparison to designer frags (although perhaps for a smaller quantity, i.e. 50ml of the all natuarl for the average 100ml designer price) if it wouldn't gain more popularity, or at least more people willing to give it a chance.
    ***For sale:

    Iris Pallida 50ml

    Ungaro I 75ml

    and more!
    - http://www.basenotes.net/threads/301...n-Man-and-more

  27. #27

    Default Re: Why aren't all natural perfumes talked about more?

    No longeveity. No point in talking. I've tried many and finally gave up." profumo.it" does some excellent smelling creations with real civet, real castoreum, and real ambergris. If it only lasts 5 minutes, it's simply not worth paying for.

  28. #28

    Default Re: Why aren't all natural perfumes talked about more?

    QUOTE=thebeck;1225360]No longevity. No point in talking. I've tried many and finally gave up." profumo.it" does some excellent smelling creations with real civet, real castoreum, and real ambergris. If it only lasts 5 minutes, it's simply not worth paying for.[/QUOTE]
    5 minutes!!! thebeck, fortunately not everybody smells like you do!
    Luca Turin, Tania Sanchez, Helg of the perfumeshrine and others revewed several of my natural (100% natural I guarantee) perfumes and they did not mention such a thing. Well, I should know myself anyway if this was the case, is it that you have a skin that absorbs perfumes at an unusual speed? Naturals are more readily absorbed by the skin. In fact do not think that a perfume lasts on your skin as long as it is not evaporated. It lasts only as long as it has not penetrated your skin and passed into your blood circulation.
    This is why one should care very much about what aromatics one puts on one's body.
    Civet and Castoreum do not last more on the skin than Patchouli or Ylang Ylang, their being fixative ingredients is just a myth cultivated by perfumers. They write and talk about perfumes in the same way as alchemists do about their art, the information they give are meant to confuse the profane end enlighten only the initiated.
    Guy Robert himself ridiculed the belief in fixative ingredients.
    The heavy and stable molecules of synthesis that the body cannot process except with difficulty are what make you perceive a perfume as having a long lasting quality, but there is not much quality in chemistry products and it is a quality that may be harmful to your health, as these molecules accumulate in the natural filters of the body.
    We all know from our perfumistas culture that at the origin, perfumes were for gloves and handkerchief. Never thought why? Because natural perfumes go very fast through our skin into your blood, but they last for days on cloth, leather and hair.
    5 minutes is really exaggerated, unless your skin has an exaggerated thirst for my perfumes made with natural aromatics.
    AbdesSalaam Attar
    Composer Perfumer
    Last edited by Profumo; 26th May 2008 at 08:19 PM.

  29. #29

    Default Re: Why aren't all natural perfumes talked about more?

    Quote Originally Posted by Profumo View Post
    QUOTE=thebeck;1225360]No longevity. No point in talking. I've tried many and finally gave up." profumo.it" does some excellent smelling creations with real civet, real castoreum, and real ambergris. If it only lasts 5 minutes, it's simply not worth paying for.
    5 minutes!!! thebeck, fortunately not everybody smells like you do!
    Luca Turin, Tania Sanchez, Helg of the perfumeshrine and others revewed several of my natural (100% natural I guarantee) perfumes and they did not mention such a thing. Well, I should know myself anyway if this was the case, is it that you have a skin that absorbs perfumes at an unusual speed? Naturals are more readily absorbed by the skin. In fact do not think that a perfume lasts on your skin as long as it is not evaporated. It lasts only as long as it has not penetrated your skin and passed into your blood circulation.
    This is why one should care very much about what aromatics one puts on one's body.
    Civet and Castoreum do not last more on the skin than Patchouli or Ylang Ylang, their being fixative ingredients is just a myth cultivated by perfumers. They write and talk about perfumes in the same way as alchemists do about their art, the information they give are meant to confuse the profane end enlighten only the initiated.
    Guy Robert himself ridiculed the belief in fixative ingredients.
    The heavy and stable molecules of synthesis that the body cannot process except with difficulty are what make you perceive a perfume as having a long lasting quality, but there is not much quality in chemistry products and it is a quality that may be harmful to your health, as these molecules accumulate in the natural filters of the body.
    We all know from our perfumistas culture that at the origin, perfumes were for gloves and handkerchief. Never thought why? Because natural perfumes go very fast through our skin into your blood, but they last for days on cloth, leather and hair.
    5 minutes is really exaggerated, unless your skin has an exaggerated thirst for my perfumes made with natural aromatics.
    AbdesSalaam Attar
    Composer Perfumer[/QUOTE]

    Like I said, you create some very nice frags and have alot of respect for you. I agree with Turin on the quality of your work. I don't see in "Perfumes The Guide" too much mention of longevity on any frags. LT and TS just seem to like to talk about what they smell. I have purchased samples from you. Yes, I live in an extremely dry climate with almost zero humidity and my skin absorbs natural perfumes and eats them for breakfast, leaving nothing behind for me to smell. I'm even very limited to in my choices of non-natural perfumes too. Only heavy duty power frags last on me. Keep up the good work because not everyone lives in the desert and has a sponge for skin. I was at a perfume shop in Seattle and the owner sprayed a scent on me and then went to smell my wrist where she sprayed and her quote "your skin just ate it up, let's try something else".

  30. #30

    Default Re: Why aren't all natural perfumes talked about more?

    Thanks for the reply, thebeck, I have met sometimes people whose skin drank perfumes as yours does.
    This may be the case of many basenoters to a certain extend, and this may account for their difference of opinion about longevity of a perfume.
    Linda of the apprentice perfumers told me once "why are your perfumes so long lasting if they are 100% natural?, natural perfumes are supposed to last very little".
    Longevity is not easy to achieve in a perfume, a coherent longevity I mean, when the perfume lasts without loosing it's parts along the way like a car that falls to pieces while running. It is just like one in a thousand melodies, only one sticks in our ear and the people go on whistling it all day. Longevity does not come from a magic fixative ingredient, but from a lucky blending of the right ingredients. Longevity in a perfume comes from a synergy, not from a sum
    I can also deduce that you are not a hairy person, otherwise the perfumes would fix on the hairs of your arms or chest and would last very long, Unless you spray the perfumes on the neck. It is very rare that the necks are hairy. Very troublesome as well, I have seen some Indians who had to shave their beard all the way down to the chest.
    You should spray perfumes as it was done at the beginning of perfumery, on shawls and handkerchiefs, on your shirt and hair. You would surely resolve the problem of longevity of may perfumes in that way.

    AbdusSalaam Attar
    www.profumo.it
    Blog
    http://naturalperfume.blogspot.com

  31. #31

    Default Re: Why aren't all natural perfumes talked about more?

    I have the same issues with your products as thebeck. However, I don't live in a very hot climate (the Netherlands), I'm half Italian so I'm not exactly the hairless type of guy either, and last but not least I did try them on clothing. To be more precise on merino wool. And normally scents sticks to this material like glue, not yours...

    I think it's a shame, because I really like some of your scents and would surely buy them if they would last longer.

    The good thing is on me they last 6 times as long as on the beck. But if you do the math I'm sure you'd agree even that is no reason to be cheerful...

    Maybe you should consider selling them as oils?
    Last edited by Domingo; 27th May 2008 at 02:32 PM.
    No guru, not method, no teacher
    Just you and I and nature

  32. #32

    Default Re: Why aren't all natural perfumes talked about more?

    Quote Originally Posted by Profumo View Post
    Thanks for the reply, thebeck, I have met sometimes people whose skin drank perfumes as yours does.
    This may be the case of many basenoters to a certain extend, and this may account for their difference of opinion about longevity of a perfume.
    Linda of the apprentice perfumers told me once "why are your perfumes so long lasting if they are 100% natural?, natural perfumes are supposed to last very little".
    Longevity is not easy to achieve in a perfume, a coherent longevity I mean, when the perfume lasts without loosing it's parts along the way like a car that falls to pieces while running. It is just like one in a thousand melodies, only one sticks in our ear and the people go on whistling it all day. Longevity does not come from a magic fixative ingredient, but from a lucky blending of the right ingredients. Longevity in a perfume comes from a synergy, not from a sum
    I can also deduce that you are not a hairy person, otherwise the perfumes would fix on the hairs of your arms or chest and would last very long, Unless you spray the perfumes on the neck. It is very rare that the necks are hairy. Very troublesome as well, I have seen some Indians who had to shave their beard all the way down to the chest.
    You should spray perfumes as it was done at the beginning of perfumery, on shawls and handkerchiefs, on your shirt and hair. You would surely resolve the problem of longevity of may perfumes in that way.

    AbdusSalaam Attar
    www.profumo.it
    Blog
    http://naturalperfume.blogspot.com
    I'm glad you mentioned spraying on garments - I've recently been experimenting with spraying on my shirts as well as my skin. As you said, it has solved longevity issues on about 75% of frags - some still don't want to cooperate. Maybe it's time for me to try natural perfumery again. I'm going to put some of a sample "Ciaras" that I got from you on a garment and see how it lasts. Maybe this way I'll be able to enjoy natural perfumery. Please if you will look at my signature of frags for dry skin and suggest 3 of yours I should sample, I would appreciate it.

  33. #33

    Default Re: Why aren't all natural perfumes talked about more?

    Quote Originally Posted by thebeck View Post
    "Ciaras"
    Hey, that's also one of my favorites from him. That one and Cuoio Tartaro. Both are great smelling perfumes, if they'd last longer I would buy a huge bottle of them immediately.
    No guru, not method, no teacher
    Just you and I and nature

  34. #34

    Default Re: Why aren't all natural perfumes talked about more?

    Quote Originally Posted by Domingo View Post
    Hey, that's also one of my favorites from him. That one and Cuoio Tartaro. Both are great smelling perfumes, if they'd last longer I would buy a huge bottle of them immediately.

    Has applying to garments helped you with longevity using natural perfume?

  35. #35

    Default Re: Why aren't all natural perfumes talked about more?

    Quote Originally Posted by thebeck View Post
    Has applying to garments helped you with longevity using natural perfume?
    Some, but not enough to buy full bottles. I can't seem to get more than half an hour no matter how I apply.
    No guru, not method, no teacher
    Just you and I and nature

  36. #36

    Default Re: Why aren't all natural perfumes talked about more?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Hmm, I've been wanting to try out a lot of different natural perfumes
    - Ayala Moriel (Think that's what Ayala Senders lines called)

    Vivek,

    I tried Rebelius from Ayala Moriel (thanks to Vibert) and quite liked it. Its a sumptuous leather with lots of Champaca. I've considered ordering a small bottle.

  37. #37

    Default Re: Why aren't all natural perfumes talked about more?

    Quote Originally Posted by SculptureOfSoul View Post
    [...] when heading to the gym, the dying basenotes of a synthetic frag can flare up with some heat and sweat on the treadmill and become absolutely nauseating, [...]
    Try wearing simple patchouli oil before you say that!

    (But seriously, I agree that most synthetic fixatives will make scent last longer and sill more than without, though don't discount the power of a natural frag to rear its pretty head when you think its gone and start heavy perspiration! )
    ===
    “… [I] recall thinking that the computer would never advance much further than this. Call me naïve, but I seemed to have underestimated the universal desire to sit in a hard plastic chair and stare at a screen until your eyes cross.” ~ David Sedaris

  38. #38

    Default Re: Why aren't all natural perfumes talked about more?

    I love natural blends, but also do not mind if some synthetics are used, especially musks.

    There are some synthetic chemicals which smell absolutely terrible to me, especially if they are used in large quantities. Two chemicals in particular which perfumers seem to love--one smells like ammonia (used in Caron and Acqua di Parma), and the other smells like a cinnamon candle or floor wax (used in Tauer, L'Artisan, Diptyque). I have never smelled a decent quality natural which has the same off-scents of these synthetics. I really don't care if it is an issue of my nose...naturals simply have less issues when it comes to this sort of thing.

    As far as longevity goes...it is really the same as you would expect from top-middle-base drydowns for any perfume. Citrus burns off quickly, patchouli does not, for example. I guess I just love the character of naturals and how they change over time, even though I can appreciate a very long-lived, synthetic linear scent as well.

  39. #39

    Default Re: Why aren't all natural perfumes talked about more?

    QUOTE=Domingo;1229260]I have the same issues with your products as thebeck. However, I don't live in a very hot climate (the Netherlands), I'm half Italian so I'm not exactly the hairless type of guy either, and last but not least I did try them on clothing. To be more precise on merino wool. And normally scents sticks to this material like glue, not yours...

    I think it's a shame, because I really like some of your scents and would surely buy them if they would last longer.

    The good thing is on me they last 6 times as long as on the beck. But if you do the math I'm sure you'd agree even that is no reason to be cheerful...

    Maybe you should consider selling them as oils?[/QUOTE]

    Ciao Domingo, yours is a different case, but the facts do not change, a perfumer stick with 2 drops of any of my perfumes keeps the smell from 3 to 15 days, according to the perfume.
    The same is equally valid on clothing. The reason why it did not work with you can be 2;

    1.) you did apply too little perfume from one of the sampling bottles instead of using a spray bottle. The spray not only gives more perfume but also expands it over a larger surface, rendering the smell more intense.
    2.) when you enter in a restaurant you smell everything being cooked there, and even the fry of the day before. After 2 minutes of staying there, you will not perceive these smells anymore, but only the new ones that come in front of you in your plate or the ones that pass near you, carried for other customers and leaving a smelly trail behind them. The same happens with natural perfumes, after a while you don't smell them anymore, but others who come nearby you smell them immediately. This is a problem with natural perfumes, you can only keep spraying again every now and then.
    Now, why do synthetic perfumes smell longer? I apply Poison on my hand and smell it all the day. It is because your nose cannot get used to them, they aggress it's nature. These are molecules that do not exist in nature and that your body does not know how to assimilate, they are very stable, they penetrate the body but do not oxidize, do not acetize, do not enter in symbiosis with the chemistry of the body, and eventually accumulate in kidneys, liver, brain and in all natural filters of the body.
    This is particularly true for the synthetic musks.

    You are right anyway about oils lasting longer, I mean the pure juice. Some perfumes are better when diluted into alcohool, but some are better pure, like Sea wood and Oak moss, which are 2 perfumes of only basenotes. They are in fact available in such form at the "Shaikh perfumes" section.

    AbdusSalaam Attar
    www.profumo.it
    Blog

    http://naturalperfume.blogspot.com
    Last edited by Profumo; 27th May 2008 at 05:13 PM.

  40. #40

    Default Re: Why aren't all natural perfumes talked about more?

    Quote Originally Posted by Domingo View Post
    Hey, that's also one of my favorites from him. That one and Cuoio Tartaro. Both are great smelling perfumes, if they'd last longer I would buy a huge bottle of them immediately.
    Domingo, the issue is more of olfactory assimilation of natural smells than of perfume longevity, as I explain with the example of a restaurant smells.
    If you spray 3 times Tartar Leather on a clothing, for one week every morning you put it on you will smell it very well.
    A different approach should be taken towards naturals by the perfumistas.
    Anyway I am a very small artisan and if you request it I can double or triple the concentration of your perfume on request (and somehow the price as well, unfortunately).
    About Tcharas, which is the perfume with which I attempted to rebuild the bewitching smell of Afghan Tcharas as I knew it in the seventies in Mazar Sharif, I have news, I have added to the formula the essential oil of cannabis, which is cultivated and distilled in my area of Italy.
    Makes it nearer to the real thing.
    Please, all of you, let me know that you are basenoters when you pass an order, I shall always add some presents to your parcels.
    AbdusSalaam Attar
    www.profumo.it
    Blog

    http://naturalperfume.blogspot.com

  41. #41

    Default Re: Why aren't all natural perfumes talked about more?

    Quote Originally Posted by thebeck View Post
    I'm glad you mentioned spraying on garments - I've recently been experimenting with spraying on my shirts as well as my skin. As you said, it has solved longevity issues on about 75% of frags - some still don't want to cooperate. Maybe it's time for me to try natural perfumery again. I'm going to put some of a sample "Ciaras" that I got from you on a garment and see how it lasts. Maybe this way I'll be able to enjoy natural perfumery. Please if you will look at my signature of frags for dry skin and suggest 3 of yours I should sample, I would appreciate it.
    Oak moss, Grezzo d'Eleganza, Gringo.
    Salaam

  42. #42

    Default Re: Why aren't all natural perfumes talked about more?

    I find all natural scents bland, mediocre and boring. To me Chanel No. 5 is the quintessence of what a perfume is all about; a formula using the most precious natural ingredients such as indian sandalwood, Grasse jasmine, rose de Mai and synthetic aldehydes. Coco Chanel asked Ersnest Beaux something "artificial" that should smell like a woman and not like rose or lilly or the valley. That 's the reason why the mysterious feminity of Chanel No. 5 is a timeless classic that 's always gonna be around and #1 worldwide.
    Last edited by girlsodeadly; 27th May 2008 at 08:12 PM.

  43. #43

    Default Re: Why aren't all natural perfumes talked about more?

    girlsodeadly, I love No. 5 also (the EDT). Also, most of the classics are wonderful, and most do well on my skin.

    However, many perfumes which are heavily synthetic smell like utter crap on me--my skin really dries things out within minutes of applying. I wouldn't say I have the same problem as thebeck in terms of longevity, but with many fragrances I lose the top notes very quickly, and supposedly sweet or balanced compositions turn woody and dry. I have never had this problem with naturals, but I have only worn them in concentrated oil form.

    While it may be true that mass-marketed perfumes will be popular, it is also true that some people may not like what the "big house" stuff does on their skin. At any rate, No. 5 is full of high quality natural ingredients. It is clear that these components are very important to achieve a high quality product.

    Besides, nobody said anything about duplicating the scent of a flower...in fact, that is something which is the goal of most synthetics.
    Last edited by Asha; 27th May 2008 at 07:44 PM.

  44. #44

    Default Re: Why aren't all natural perfumes talked about more?

    Quote Originally Posted by Asha View Post
    girlsodeadly, I love No. 5 also (the EDT). Also, most of the classics are wonderful, and most do well on my skin.

    However, many perfumes which are heavily synthetic smell like utter crap on me--my skin really dries things out within minutes of applying. I wouldn't say I have the same problem as thebeck in terms of longevity, but with many fragrances I lose the top notes very quickly, and supposedly sweet or balanced compositions turn woody and dry. I have never had this problem with naturals, but I have only worn them in concentrated oil form.

    While it may be true that mass-marketed perfumes will be popular, it is also true that some people may not like what the "big house" stuff does on their skin. At any rate, No. 5 is full of high quality natural ingredients. It is clear that these components are very important to achieve a high quality product.

    Besides, nobody said anything about duplicating the scent of a flower...in fact, that is something which is the goal of most synthetics.
    As much as I respect your perception of "synthetics" on your skin drying out so fast, to me it 's more about your olfactory perception than your skin. Skin chemistry matters to some extent but it 's less than people usually think. Maybe you should revisit classics such as Joy or No 5 in pure parfum concentration, the Guerlain parfum de toilette vintages are also great and very lasting.

    What would be No 5 without its aldehydes or Shalimar without its synthetic vanilla? I 've smelled ridiculously expensive niche vanilla scents using natural vanilla (Tihota etc.), they all smell nice but they 're foody and none of them measure up to Shalimar 's timeless beauty.
    I 've tested a few samples of all natural perfumers, none of them impress me, there was no excitment. The only "natural" line that I loved was Gobin Daude but Luca Turin said her scents do smell very natural but they were not labeled natural perfumery and anyways it 's been discontinued.

  45. #45
    Hoos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    San Francisco Bay Area
    Posts
    959
    Blog Entries
    3

    Default Re: Why aren't all natural perfumes talked about more?

    To the original question of why they're not talked about more, I think it's because they're simply not used very much. For a number of reasons:

    1. Scent - as many have mentioned above. Duplicating a scent is nearly impossible (if not completely impossible) using "all natural" products. Rose, iris, violet, and most fragrances that might be considered natural (occurring in nature) are fragile and complex. An orange doesn't smell like neroli, bergamot, or petitgrain - even though they have an orange character to them. Or even a combination - an orange's scent contains a number of other chemicals that are reacting with each other that create the smell of an orange. Then you have shadings: green orange, ripe orange, peeled orange, orange peel, etc.

    2. Longevity - just like a scent occurring in nature, their lives are short. Especially once you take then out of the living organism (flower, fruit, animal). Most people want a fragrance that will last a good part of the day.

    3. Cost - all natural fragrance would be prohibitively costly on a mass market level. Yes, you can probably get an all-natural bespoke scent created for you. A solid bespoke fragrance that's all natural would be easily portable, easy to refresh when it wore off, and probably very nice. It's still expensive for most people and simply not doable on a mass marketing scale.

    I do prefer frags that are more natural smelling. If the maker has gone too heavily to the chemical side, I can often notice it and sometimes can get ill from it. However, a number of the natural smelling frags I like (citruses, florals, chypres) usually have unrecognizable chemical compounds at the top of the list of ingredients.
    Brent

    Catherine Deneuve: "You should put scent where you like to be kissed."


  46. #46

    Default Re: Why aren't all natural perfumes talked about more?

    Quote Originally Posted by Futami View Post
    Vivek,

    I tried Rebelius from Ayala Moriel (thanks to Vibert) and quite liked it. Its a sumptuous leather with lots of Champaca. I've considered ordering a small bottle.
    Thanks Futami, i've been quite interested in some of the Chypres and Fougeres that she does, along with Film Noir. Currently, i'm pressed for cash, but after that, I want to get around to ordering some samples.

  47. #47

    Default Re: Why aren't all natural perfumes talked about more?

    Quote Originally Posted by girlsodeadly View Post
    As much as I respect your perception of "synthetics" on your skin drying out so fast, to me it 's more about your olfactory perception than your skin. Skin chemistry matters to some extent but it 's less than people usually think. Maybe you should revisit classics such as Joy or No 5 in pure parfum concentration, the Guerlain parfum de toilette vintages are also great and very lasting.

    What would be No 5 without its aldehydes or Shalimar without its synthetic vanilla? I 've smelled ridiculously expensive niche vanilla scents using natural vanilla (Tihota etc.), they all smell nice but they 're foody and none of them measure up to Shalimar 's timeless beauty.
    I 've tested a few samples of all natural perfumers, none of them impress me, there was no excitment. The only "natural" line that I loved was Gobin Daude but Luca Turin said her scents do smell very natural but they were not labeled natural perfumery and anyways it 's been discontinued.
    LOL, well, I do like to be open to every perfume, so I try them all, hopefully with not too many preconceived notions. And I very much like the classics you have named. I think we must both agree that the scent must be good and enjoyable, regardless of its classification. I am more interested in a great perfume experience than a label.

    If I recall, Turin did write about how the top notes smell different on each person's skin. Perhaps this is still under debate? I assume if it is true, then their quick disappearance on my skin certainly seems possible.

    Maybe I can be the country cousin, and you the city cousin

  48. #48

    Default Re: Why aren't all natural perfumes talked about more?

    Quote Originally Posted by Asha View Post
    LOL, I think we must both agree that the scent must be good and enjoyable, regardless of its classification.
    I am following this thread with much interest. I noted a few phrases from basenoters that are very interesting to me. Following below are five of them:

    1. One thing I can definitely say that is a pro to the all natural frags I've worn is that they haven't ever bothered my sinuses or felt 'oppressive' in a way that some synthetic frags can
    2. If the maker has gone too heavily to the chemical side, I can often notice it and sometimes can get ill from it.
    3. the dying basenotes of a synthetic frag can flare up with some heat and sweat on the treadmill and become absolutely nauseating
    4. many perfumes which are heavily synthetic smell like utter crap on me--my skin
    5. There are some synthetic chemicals which smell absolutely terrible to me, especially if they are used in large quantities

    These comments come from perfume lovers who cannot be suspected of being biased in favor of natural perfumery. The facts that come up are:

    1. They recognize the heavy load of some synthetics in some perfumes
    2. They recognize that these frags are of lower olfactory quality
    3. They are subject to strong adverse reaction both physical and psychical.

    My demand to the users of commercial frags is: how many of you have become at one time sick from some commercial perfumes.
    Last edited by Profumo; 27th May 2008 at 10:27 PM.

  49. #49

    Default Re: Why aren't all natural perfumes talked about more?

    Quote Originally Posted by Profumo View Post

    My demand to the users of commercial frags is: how many of you have become at one time sick from some commercial perfumes.
    My typical physical response to chemical irritants is a sore, tight throat and stuffy, runny nose. A sinus headache may follow.

    The ammonia-like scent I smell in some perfumes not tolerable at all--to me, it is the same as opening a bottle of ammonia or bleach and inhaling deeply. The chemical scent burns the inside of my nose and sinuses.

    The cinnamon wax scent I mentioned is mostly just nauseating, but if other things are irritating me at the same time, it will increase my symptoms. I smelled the same scent in the floor wax that the custodian used at school, and when he cleaned the floors, I had to leave the area.

    There is another chemical which is widely used--Iso E Super. When I smell it in heavier concentrations, my throat starts to close almost immediately.

    Physical reactions definitely limit my enjoyment of a scent. Even if I think the fragrance is beautiful and well-composed (eg, Tauer or Ormonde Jayne), there is no way I can ever wear some of them.

  50. #50

    Default Re: Why aren't all natural perfumes talked about more?

    Quote Originally Posted by Profumo View Post
    4. many perfumes which are heavily synthetic smell like utter crap on me--my skin
    5. There are some synthetic chemicals which smell absolutely terrible to me, especially if they are used in large quantities

    My demand to the users of commercial frags is: how many of you have become at one time sick from some commercial perfumes.
    to me 100% cheap synthetics or all natural scents are both crap but in between these two extremes you have the most beautiful perfumes such as JOY, No. 5 and Mitsouko...

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •