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  1. #121
    Dependent pluran's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Luca Turin book - your thoughts? Here are mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by strifeknot View Post
    Does it?...
    It does.

    See ya.
    Last edited by pluran; 23rd April 2008 at 03:49 PM.

  2. #122

    Default Re: New Luca Turin book - your thoughts? Here are mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by tigers1901 View Post
    I spent plenty of time in my local bookstore last weekend reading through this book.
    Now there's a commendable approach to making an intelligent assessment of a book. Did you have time to slip Anna Karenina in while you were there, too?

    Quote Originally Posted by tigers1901 View Post
    Turin seems to fall into that category of loud, closed-minded fragrance lovers who are always desiring old-fashioned perfumey perfumes - big, eccentric, aldehydic, and powdery.
    Perhaps if you'd spent a little more time in your local bookstore reading through the book you'd have discovered that many of the highest recommendations in Perfumes are given to fragrances that are neither big, eccentric, aldehydic, nor powdery. . .and likewise some of the harshest criticism is reserved for frags in those particular categories.
    "Oh, my Lolita, I have only words to play with!"
    - Vladimir Nabokov,
    Lolita

  3. #123

    Default Re: New Luca Turin book - your thoughts? Here are mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by tigers1901 View Post
    Turin seems to fall into that category of loud, closed-minded fragrance lovers who are always desiring old-fashioned perfumey perfumes - big, eccentric, aldehydic, and powdery. They dominate these fragrance boards, because they're always declaring that the classics represent the true definition of "GREAT perfumes!" - and they state this as FACT. And, hey, if you don't agree with this, you're not a REAL perfume lover, get it?!
    I'm confused how a careful reader of The Guide could conclude that "Turin seems to fall into" the category described above. A careful reader would notice that many old fragrances -- even aldehydic ones -- get trashed. A careful reader would also notice that many new fragrances -- even light, spare ones -- get recommended.
    --------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Creek View Post
    Did you have time to slip Anna Karenina in while you were there, too?
    I'll save you the time: She throws herself under a train.
    Last edited by Advocate; 23rd April 2008 at 04:26 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  4. #124

    Default Re: New Luca Turin book - your thoughts? Here are mine.

    Well, you folks make me doubly proud that I never spent a scent on this book. It's repellent to see people practice the same kind of nastiness that they obviously relate so closely to in this book. Congratulations - pat yourselves on the back! I questioned the honor always attached to the "Greatest Scents of All Time" as models of perfume art and perfection - NOT to every single old or obscure fragrance in history. It was a valid question to a topic that seemed like it COULD have been interesting. But in the end it WASN'T a thread about "your thoughts." It was about falling in line and worshipping this book, and this style of criticism and bias. In the end, 99% of the population don't know or care who Turin is, and seeing where this thread has headed, the world is definitely a much nicer place because of that.

  5. #125
    Brielle87's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Luca Turin book - your thoughts? Here are mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by tigers1901 View Post
    In the end, 99% of the population don't know or care who Turin is, and seeing where this thread has headed, the world is definitely a much nicer place because of that.
    In the end, a majority of the worlds population are starving, and do not have clean water, nor adequate housing, that should put it all in perspective.
    You have a super day now
    Last edited by Brielle87; 23rd April 2008 at 06:01 PM. Reason: typo
    Quand on boit l'eau, il faut penser à sa source

  6. #126

    Default Re: New Luca Turin book - your thoughts? Here are mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by tigers1901 View Post
    Well, you folks make me doubly proud that I never spent a scent on this book. It's repellent to see people practice the same kind of nastiness that they obviously relate so closely to in this book. Congratulations - pat yourselves on the back!
    May I point out that you appeared on this thread with a dismissive "review" of a book that (1) was based on a cursory reading in a bookstore, and (2) misrepresented its content? Were you expecting everyone to respond with a Group Hug?
    "Oh, my Lolita, I have only words to play with!"
    - Vladimir Nabokov,
    Lolita

  7. #127

    Default Re: New Luca Turin book - your thoughts? Here are mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by eric View Post
    Bourdon listed as creator of GIT in Michael Edwards' database? , and no doubt about this "fact" could be, like a error or something? I hope Oliver isn't reading this, cause this is ridiculous.
    Makes me wonder about this Michael Edwards database also.
    Just a quick little update, in my own little mystery solving search for the truth on the matter of Bourdon being listed as creator of GIT.


    Got this mail back from the Creed website.
    Thank you for contacting the Creed fragrances UK website.
    > As we are only the British distributors of Creed fragrances and not the
    > manufacturer, we are not in a position to comment on this matter.
    > However, I will contact Olivier Creed and bring the matter to his
    > attention.
    >
    > I would like to take this opportunity to thank you for your obvious
    > appreciation of Creed fragrances.
    >
    > Best regards,
    >
    > Severine Allain


    Now I wonder what the man himself has to say. If mr. Edwards is right, I'll wear Pepperspray as my SOTD (or worse,...Kouros)

    To be continued.

    P.S.forgive me if this a bit off-topic guys, and to everyone who purchased the book, just enjoy reading it and respect each other .
    Last edited by eric; 23rd April 2008 at 09:00 PM.

  8. #128

    Default Re: New Luca Turin book - your thoughts? Here are mine.

    I do wonder who the target audience is for the book besides us.
    I find it too casual in its content and organization to really function as a reference guide.While it's a fun read,there is a smugness hanging over it. I'm sure they've made plenty of enemies with their snarky comments.

  9. #129

    Default Re: New Luca Turin book - your thoughts? Here are mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruggles View Post
    I do wonder who the target audience is for the book besides us.
    I find it too casual in its content and organization to really function as a reference guide.While it's a fun read,there is a smugness hanging over it. I'm sure they've made plenty of enemies with their snarky comments.
    Agreed. I got a chance to look through it for about an hour at the bookstore today, and aside from the articles at the beginning, and despite the fact that the nasty sense of humour is really sharp and funny (pi holds your interest for about 3.14 seconds) most of it just seems really flippant and careless on top of smug.

    More importantly, in a great many of the reviews I felt like they weren't really familliar with the fragrances under consideration - as if they'd just tested it on a paper strip and gave it one sniff and then wrote a snarky review, or even a rave one.

    Often they miss a huge, central aspect of the fragrance under review, and sometimes the whole essence of the fragrance iself. You really don't get a sense of what the fragrance is about. For example, the (relatively) longish 5 star review of Sarrasins didn't even mention the civet which completely dominates the end of the fragrance. One of the striking aspects of this fragrance, love it or hate it, is that it tranforms from a velvety jasmine with green and ink, into a subtle aura of sweat and filth. Filthy civet is half the reason the fragrance is called Sarrasins in the first place!

    And I can't believe that someone with an expert nose can say that there's no vetiver in Creed O.V. and no sandalwood in Creed O.S. I hear that alot on basenotes and just attribute it to lack of familliarity with the fragrances. I'm no kind of expert and even to me those notes are loud and clear at the heart and base of those fragrances after the deceptive Mugler and Joop! clone openings. Again it just makes me think that many of these fragrances were just tested on paper, or else very quickly to meet the deadline.

    Their tastes and perceptions about the fragrances are so far removed from mine that the good reviews didn't at all make me interested in testing those fragrances out, and neither did the bad reviews make me want to avoid those. By the end, all I cared about was seeing how their take on my wardrobe or other fragrances I'm very familliar with compared to my own. The only reviews (out of the ones I read) that in my opinion were really accurate and gave a real impression of what the fragrance actually smells like, and how it devellops, etc were Virgin Island Water, Equipage and Borneo 1834.

    I didn't see one mention plus or minus of longevity issues in any of the reviews I looked at and I'd guess it's because most fragrances weren't tested in depth enough for them to know.

    All in all I've found that basenotes is a much better resource. While the quality of reviews varies, in general they are much more in depth and elaborate, and even many of the cruder ones do tend to capture the essence of the fragrances. Plus with so many reviews per fragrance you really get a sense of what the fragrance is about, and whether or not you're likely to be in tune with the reviewers likes and dislikes.

    On the plus side the book is really funny though.
    Last edited by GAIVS IVLIVS CAESAR; 23rd April 2008 at 10:27 PM.
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  10. #130
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    Default Re: New Luca Turin book - your thoughts? Here are mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by GAIVS IVLIVS CAESAR View Post
    On the plus side the book is really funny though.
    Thats the biggest positive.
    -

  11. #131

    Default Re: New Luca Turin book - your thoughts? Here are mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by GAIVS IVLIVS CAESAR View Post
    More importantly, in a great many of the reviews I felt like they weren't really familliar with the fragrances under consideration - as if they'd just tested it on a paper strip and gave it one sniff and then wrote a snarky review, or even a rave one.
    The overall impression I get is, this is a book that was rushed to meet a deadline. The short, ad hoc reviews come across like filler, and they, unfortunately, undermine the more considered and insightful reviews, of which there are plenty of. I'm still suspect over all the raves for Estee Lauder's frighteningly synthetic monstrosities that smell more like virtual fragrances than real things.
    And, alas, poor Mona di Orio; she surely must have been driven to tears after reading the attacks on her capabilities as a perfumer.
    Last edited by Kevin Guyer; 24th April 2008 at 08:48 PM.

  12. #132
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    Default Re: New Luca Turin book - your thoughts? Here are mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by the_good_life View Post
    Vibert, thanks for an excellent review. I'm going to have fun with this book.
    Quote Originally Posted by ubuandibeme View Post
    Vibert ~ I enjoyed reading your aptly written review of Perfumes The Guide. You have an eloquent manner of expression! Thanks!
    Quote Originally Posted by usqview View Post
    vibert!

    very nice review. i came here with the intention to ask 'is it worth the price of admission' but you had already provided a perfect response. i found the book at a local wal-books but before pulling the trigger (just under $30) i thought it wise to find out if the humor value alone was worth it.

    cheers and thanks again,
    ryan
    Quote Originally Posted by narcus View Post
    Nice last words in a first comprehensive appraisal, and just in time! ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Buzzlepuff View Post
    Great review Vibert! ...
    Quote Originally Posted by foetidus View Post
    Thanks for the great review, Vibert. You sold me on the book.
    A blushing thanks to all. Having published one not terribIy succesful book myself, I felt that Perfumes: The Guide deserved a balanced and relatively objective review. You know - the kind that might actually help you decide whether to purchase it.

    It amuses me to think that Turin and Sanchez are in all likelihood reading this thread, and falling over one another laughing at the controversy they've stirred up. I sure would be!
    Last edited by Off-Scenter; 24th April 2008 at 02:25 AM.

  13. #133
    Dependent pluran's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Luca Turin book - your thoughts? Here are mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vibert View Post
    ...It amuses me to think that Turin and Sanchez are in all likelihood reading this thread, and falling over one another laughing at the controversy they've stirred up...
    They probably are reading it but won't be for long, because there isn't much to see.

  14. #134
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    Default Re: New Luca Turin book - your thoughts? Here are mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by pluran View Post
    They probably are reading it but won't be for long, because there isn't much to see.
    There are some decent threads out there in the forum. I would rather they post some of their expert thoughts on topics discussing things other than their book ..or maybe even start new topics, if they feel that the topics aren't cerbral enough for them.
    -

  15. #135
    Dependent pluran's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Luca Turin book - your thoughts? Here are mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by zztopp View Post
    ...I would rather they post some of their expert thoughts on topics discussing things other than their book...
    Unfortunately that probably won't happen.

  16. #136
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    Default Re: New Luca Turin book - your thoughts? Here are mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vibert View Post
    ...indispensable to anyone with a serious interest in personal fragrances.
    Thanks, old dog, for letting this young pup know that he's not chasing his own tail. I bought it right away because I'm a noob to serious fragrance appreciation. I like the book a lot, and it's already helping me to understand fragrances far better than I did before reading it. I wasn't sure if I was just imagining how useful it is to me.

    Although sometimes brief to the point of pain, the descriptions are really helping me to appreciate a wider variety of notes. E.g., I didn't understand "milky" before, but the review of Tokyo by Kenzo ("milky woody") has turned me into a veritable milk detector. Ditto "soap" (Vera Wang for Men = "soapy nightmare"). Although the excellent fragrance reviews here on basenotes are very helpful, it's like cinema - everybody needs to find at least one reviewer whose viewpoint "works" for them. This book works for me.

    If the second edition comes out with the ones that were missed, plus the fragrances to come, I'll be buying that one, too. It's like a climbing guide - the one back at base camp cannot be too big or too recent.

    My only beef with this thread (really with ourselves, collectively) is that I think we should call it Turin & Sanchez, the way my classic organic chem book was called Morrison & Boyd, and not just "Luca Turin's book". Tania's reviews provide balance, humor, a refreshing second style of writing, and female insight. A good number of the real gems are hers. If she would have written the whole darn thing, I would have bought it. I may be a redneck, but my inner feminist feels the need to comment... :-)

  17. #137

    Default Re: New Luca Turin book - your thoughts? Here are mine.

    I wasn 't impressed by the writing, the reviews are often too concise but Luca Turin did a good job at pointing out who 's doing a good or a bad job when it comes to reformulations in the industry. I agree with him that Richard Fraysse at Caron, it 's such a disaster. I also agree with his Creeds low scores, these scents are so dull.

  18. #138

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    Default Re: New Luca Turin book - your thoughts? Here are mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redneck Perfumisto View Post
    My only beef with this thread (really with ourselves, collectively) is that I think we should call it Turin & Sanchez, the way my classic organic chem book was called Morrison & Boyd, and not just "Luca Turin's book". Tania's reviews provide balance, humor, a refreshing second style of writing, and female insight. A good number of the real gems are hers. If she would have written the whole darn thing, I would have bought it. I may be a redneck, but my inner feminist feels the need to comment... :-)
    Absolutely right! We shall get into that as more time passes and we really learn to discern when Tania is talking or Luca through her. Don't forget she edited his comments in this book also. So it's not easy to know exactly who did what. Take the Caron Tabac Blond review (TS) as an example: it contains a lot of detail that appears to have been contributed by Luca. Tania signed many or all of the Lutens reviews. They are fine. But I miss some affection in these. LT would have been warmer in tone, is my impression. He used to write about Lutens often. I particularly remember one article in NZZ, titled 'Dream Team'. That's the kind of appraisal which sent me shopping. Unfortunately, nobody knows what Tania has written on perfume outside this book, do we? The book campaign used her reviews on MUA as reference. But these reviews have disappeared from the eyes of the public.
    Last edited by narcus; 24th April 2008 at 12:06 PM.
    'Il mondo dei profumi è un universo senza limiti: una fraganza puo rievocare sensazioni, luoghi, persone o ancora condurre in uno spazio di nuove dimensioni emozionali' L. V.

  19. #139
    foetidus's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Luca Turin book - your thoughts? Here are mine.

    Thanks for the compliment. I'm not anywhere near as knowledgeable and entertaining as Turin and Sanchez, but I appreciate the thought.



    Quote Originally Posted by manicboy View Post
    Foetidus, when's your book coming out? Your reviews easily stand up next to Turin's and in many cases, I find them more informative and descriptive. Keep up the good work!
    Last edited by foetidus; 24th April 2008 at 11:36 AM. Reason: spelling

  20. #140

    Default Re: New Luca Turin book - your thoughts? Here are mine.

    Got a chance to scan the book, admittedly not enough time to form a justifiable opinion regarding the whole, but from what I have read and already know about Turin from his blog, there do seem to be certain characteristics of fragrance that predispose them to favorable, or unfavorable as the case may be, reviews—just as I have preferences in fragrance, just as anyone does. That said, Turin and Sanchez provide incredible insight and exhibit great knowledge from which I hope to benefit. They lampoon one of my favorites, Floris Vetiver, but conversely, from their otherwise exceptional top ten masculines I have been embarrassed by wearing the strange, spicy and sour Timbuktu often enough that I have wrote it off forever. No harm, no foul. No need for unjust attacks or total dismissal of the book, this is just part of identifying with a critic, developing a relationship so that you may understand where they’re coming from, and ultimately benefit by their words.

    I am, however, a perfume fanatic, and I love the book; it will be interesting to see how the general public reacts to it though. The short, albeit entertaining, dismissals of certain fragrances are at odds to the erudition and illumination that the book otherwise provides. The comedy, as presented then, seems directed to those more willing to dismiss fragrances outright, that is the fragrance counter consumer, but will someone spending $50 annually on a fragrance spend $26 on the book to figure out what that annual fragrance is going to be? Seems unlikely, but I don’t know. If the book is intended for people who already have an interest in perfumes, it is a little light for an encyclopedia. Also, why not include discontinued fragrances. The pursuit of a long lost gem can be very exciting and, like rare animals or beautiful women, obtaining one can often be more rewarding than the product obtained.

    I agree that it takes a lot of time sorting through the bull of these forums to find anything worthwhile here, but I also agree that the breadth and scope of the reviews contained on this site have been of significant value.

    Perhaps after reading the book, we can take an educated stance on it, become more informed because of it, and bring these forums up to the level of the aforementioned reviews.
    Last edited by whynno; 24th April 2008 at 05:44 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  21. #141

    Default Re: New Luca Turin book - your thoughts? Here are mine.

    i went back to the wal-books today and almost had a panic attack; they no longer had the book out on the new hardbacks table. a very nice attendent that was passing by asked if i needed help. when i told her the name of the book she told me she knew right were its at. picked up the last two copies. she said they had sold a bunch of them already. frankly, i am a bit surprised at that.

    so the fun part- she said that she had just finished reading it and loved it! we had a very nice chat about it. she thought that lt and ts had nailed the sad fact that a number of her favorites had gone through several reformulations. she also really like the mention of a few cheapies that received 4 stars from them.

    she also really liked my sotd- no88.

    really nice to have a chat about frags that didnt take place online (no offense meant). made my day!

    cheers,
    ryan

  22. #142

    Default Re: New Luca Turin book - your thoughts? Here are mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by luca turin View Post
    Just curious as to what you mean by that

    There is pointed criticism toward the Caron reformulations, whereas, to give one example, the reformulated Coco, which is a complete shambles compared with the original, isn't so harshly judged. I attributed this to cronyism; however, I must admit that I am looking for a way to organize The Guide reviews in a way that makes sense to my experiences and my perceptions. Cronyism was the easiest explanation, but it may not be an accurate one.

  23. #143
    Brielle87's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Luca Turin book - your thoughts? Here are mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruggles View Post
    I'm still suspect over all the raves for Estee Lauder's frighteningly synthetic monstrosities that smell more like virtual fragrances than real things.
    .
    Ruggles; you have made me ever so sad, I am actually getting all verklempt. I love Youth-Dew, Azuree and Cinnabar. I would actually rather wear my Youth-Dew than my Guerlain Djedi. I find their scents to always be reliable; Youth-Dew smells as lovely now as it did when I was younger, and Azuree smells as wonderful as my aunt's ancient bottle from the 60's. I guess that is the joy of all the selections we are offered. This past weekend my husband and I were in this shop called Blue Mercury, and I sprayed Serge Lutens-Fleur d'Oranger on a mouillette, and it smelt nice. I proceeded to spray my arm with one squirt, and the rest of my day was plagued by nausea, my husband also. So sometimes it is not the quality, or cost, just ones own preference.
    Quand on boit l'eau, il faut penser à sa source

  24. #144

    Default Re: New Luca Turin book - your thoughts? Here are mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brielle87 View Post
    I am actually getting all verklempt.I love Youth-Dew, Azuree and Cinnabar. I would actually rather wear my Youth-Dew than my Guerlain Djedi. I find their scents to always be reliable; Youth-Dew smells as lovely now as it did when I was younger, and Azuree smells as wonderful as my aunt's ancient bottle from the 60's.
    Sorry Doll. Please don't think of me as a schlemiel. I'm actually a huge fan of Youth Dew, Azuree, Cinnabar, too. You can also add White Linen, JHL to that list.
    I was making reference to his ***** ratings for Beyond Paradise and Pleasures. To me, they smell like they were created for Femme-bots.
    Last edited by Kevin Guyer; 25th April 2008 at 12:32 AM.

  25. #145
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    Default Re: New Luca Turin book - your thoughts? Here are mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruggles View Post
    Sorry Doll. Please don't think of me as a schlemiel. I'm actually a huge fan of Youth Dew, Azuree, Cinnabar, too. You can also add White Linen, JHL to that list.
    I was making reference to his ***** ratings for Beyond Paradise and Pleasures. To me, they smell like they were created for Femme-bots.
    I do have to agree with you on Pleasures, I really never liked it, it is a mass-market type of release. This past weekend I sprayed on some Beyond Paradise, to see what it was all about, and it became very 'strange' after 10 minutes. 'Strange' would probably be an understatement, bizarre would be a more appropriate way to characterize how it changed on my skin. Now when I think of the Femme-bots in Austin Powers, I think of Metal or Calandre by Paco Rabanne. The Femme-bots would not enjoy Pleasures, they are too hip for that stuff.
    Take care
    Quand on boit l'eau, il faut penser à sa source

  26. #146

    Default Re: New Luca Turin book - your thoughts? Here are mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brielle87 View Post
    I do have to agree with you on Pleasures, I really never liked it, it is a mass-market type of release. This past weekend I sprayed on some Beyond Paradise, to see what it was all about, and it became very 'strange' after 10 minutes. 'Strange' would probably be an understatement, bizarre would be a more appropriate way to characterize how it changed on my skin. Now when I think of the Femme-bots in Austin Powers, I think of Metal or Calandre by Paco Rabanne. The Femme-bots would not enjoy Pleasures, they are too hip for that stuff.
    Take care
    SEND IN THE FEMME-BOTS!!!!!!!!

  27. #147
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    Default Re: New Luca Turin book - your thoughts? Here are mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by whynno View Post
    If the book is intended for people who already have an interest in perfumes, it is a little light for an encyclopedia. Also, why not include discontinued fragrances. The pursuit of a long lost gem can be very exciting and, like rare animals or beautiful women, obtaining one can often be more rewarding than the product obtained.
    Interesting idea. Encyclopedia Olfactoria? Maybe it's a wiki project. Who knows. But I agree completely - discontinued frags are a complete subject of interest to about half the fragrance world, it seems. I would wager that everybody who picked up the book looked for some "old flames". In fact, the longer reviews in T&S where older scents are discussed in detail are one of the best parts of the reviews. I rubbed my hands in evil glee every time I saw a full-page review with 4-digit numbers popping out.

  28. #148

    Default Re: New Luca Turin book - your thoughts? Here are mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by seattlelight View Post
    There is pointed criticism toward the Caron reformulations, whereas, to give one example, the reformulated Coco, which is a complete shambles compared with the original, isn't so harshly judged. I attributed this to cronyism; however, I must admit that I am looking for a way to organize The Guide reviews in a way that makes sense to my experiences and my perceptions. Cronyism was the easiest explanation, but it may not be an accurate one.
    Thank you. Odd accusation to make on such flimsy evidence. But you said "A strong thread of cronyism runs throughout the book" (I'm quoting from memory). Any other instances ?

  29. #149
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    Default Re: New Luca Turin book - your thoughts? Here are mine.

    I would like to invite Dr. Turin and/or Ms. Sanchez to comment on the method(s) of application (back of hand, paper etc), estimates of amount applied and time(s) in general allowed for the different notes to appear for the fragrances reviewed in Perfumes: The Guide.
    Last edited by kbe; 25th April 2008 at 04:55 PM.
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  30. #150
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    Default Re: New Luca Turin book - your thoughts? Here are mine.

    I am surprised at the questioning of a lack of reviews due to a failure to receive samples. As it is not possible for any two people to find every fragrance on the market, a request for samples would seem to be the only way to include as many reviews as possible. Regarding the controversy about Beyond Paradise, it would seem that every comprehensive book of reviews would have at least one or two incidences of "jumping the shark". I love the book, respect the authors for a fantastic work, and look forward to the next book.

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