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  1. #1

    Default Agonized over the reformulation of Czech&Speake No. 88

    I'm going through a crisis with No. 88. Having read of a reformulation and having identified my bottle as a reformulated one I cannot appreciate the fragrance in the same way I did before. Just the imagination, No. 88 could have been denser, darker, more intense...drives me mad. (Same is true for Antaeus; but that's another story.)

    So I'd be happy if there would be hope: Are there basenoters out there that might comment wether the differences are significant ones, or not? Does the new "juice" fail compared to the old? Thanks in advance for your (possible) responses.

    Steffen

  2. #2

    Default Re: Agonized over the reformulation of Czech&Speake No. 88

    This thread might help you out...

    http://community.basenotes.net/showt...ech+Speake+Oil

    scentemental says some stuff about it..might help.

    As for myself, I was a bit disappointed by No.88...I'm a bit curious about the old stuff as well.
    Last edited by nsamadi; 21st October 2007 at 11:23 PM.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Agonized over the reformulation of Czech&Speake No. 88

    I read on a blog somewhere (sorry don't remember which) that the reformulated version wouldn't be produced in a 200ml form. Does anyone know if that is true? I see that there are still 200ml versions available so if it's true that might be a way to try the "old" formula.
    Yes I'm clutching at straws....

  4. #4

    Default Re: Agonized over the reformulation of Czech&Speake No. 88

    Quote Originally Posted by loungeboy View Post
    I read on a blog somewhere (sorry don't remember which) that the reformulated version wouldn't be produced in a 200ml form. Does anyone know if that is true? I see that there are still 200ml versions available so if it's true that might be a way to try the "old" formula.
    Yes I'm clutching at straws....
    Czech & Speake have now started producing the reformulated juice in the 200ml shaker bottle. It's for sale on their website.

    It's really easy to tell the old juice from the new: grey cylindrical packaging instead of the black and white packaging, and a darker colored juice.

    Aromatically speaking, the difference between the vintage Italian formulation and the new formulation, which is now produced in England is--as I mention in the thread referred to above by nsamadi-- somewhat akin to the difference between an EDT version and an EDP version. The reformulation being the EDT; the vintage Italian formulation being the EDP.

    The reformulation is still an extraordinarily great fragrance, but it's not the same as the vintage Italian formulation.

    On the Czech & Speake website, they no longer advertise that the new formulation contains "Cassie & Frangipanni" as they did for the old one. That is probably one thing that makes it a little less aromatically complex, but, again, not by much. To my nose, the differences are a matter of strength more than anything else, but I haven't done a detailed lengthy side-by-side comparison to confirm that this is the only difference. I would be happy to do so in the near future if anyone is interested.

    scentemental


    Last edited by scentemental; 22nd October 2007 at 01:40 AM.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Agonized over the reformulation of Czech&Speake No. 88

    Quote Originally Posted by scentemental View Post
    On the Czech & Speake website, they no longer advertise that the new formulation contains "Cassie & Frangipanni" as they did for the old one.
    Scentemental, do you think that C&S have removed those two ingredients? If so, I dont know why they would do that - my guess is that cassie and frangipanni aren't terribly expensive ingredients.

    I have a partial bottle of the old formulation and a new bottle. The only difference I have noticed is that the vintage stuff is more "loud", "rich" or "potent" when first applied .. but then I dont use more than two sprays of this intense juice.
    -

  6. #6

    Default Re: Agonized over the reformulation of Czech&Speake No. 88

    oh dear god! I don't even want to think of this. 88 is on my wish list and now I wonder...
    perhaps I'll go with Une Foile de Rose for my salty aquatic rose wardrobe component.
    sigh.
    "Like a lobster with a pearl in its claw, the beet held the jasmine firmly without crushing or obscuring it. Beet lifted jasmine, the way a bullnecked partner lifts a ballerina, and the pair came on stage on citron's fluty cue. As if jasmine were a collection of beautiful paintings, beet hung it in the galleries of the nose, insured it against fire or theft, threw a party to celebrate it. Citron mailed the invitations." Jitterbug Perfume by Tom Robbins p. 189

    What I am loving right now: Shalimar vintage extrait, Chanel Bois des Iles, Chanel no. 22, Le Labo Iris 39, Guerlain Iris Ganache

  7. #7

    Default Re: Agonized over the reformulation of Czech&Speake No. 88

    Quote Originally Posted by zztopp View Post
    Scentemental, do you think that C&S have removed those two ingredients? If so, I dont know why they would do that - my guess is that cassie and frangipanni aren't terribly expensive ingredients.

    I have a partial bottle of the old formulation and a new bottle. The only difference I have noticed is that the vintage stuff is more "loud", "rich" or "potent" when first applied .. but then I dont use more than two sprays of this intense juice.


    On the contrary zz, it is the absolute forms of these two floral that are used in perfumery and they are extremely expensive, prohibitively so for the use in most perfumes except in the smallest amounts, but as most perfumers know, it is small amounts of floral absolutes that can make or break a fragrance. I don't think that this is the case with No. 88, but I think that careful comparison will prove that these floral elements add to the complexity and overall aesthetic quality of vintage Italian formulation. I say this because frangipanni shares some common elements with geranium and rose otto (rose damascena), the heart of the rose accord in No. 88, and I am pretty sure that it makes the whole rose accord decidedly richer and more complex, so the perception might not be only a matter of strength but of richness. There's a lot to be sorted out here. The more and more I think about it, the more and more I am convinced its not just a matter of strength, but a matter of how other elements, perhaps missing in the new formulation, add a synergistically generated richness to the rose accord of the vintage formulation.

    scentemental

    Last edited by scentemental; 22nd October 2007 at 04:12 AM.

  8. #8

    Thumbs up Re: Agonized over the reformulation of Czech&Speake No. 88

    Quote Originally Posted by scentemental View Post


    On the Czech & Speake website, they no longer advertise that the new formulation contains "Cassie & Frangipanni" as they did for the old one. That is probably one thing that makes it a little less aromatically complex, but, again, not by much. To my nose, the differences are a matter of strength more than anything else, but I haven't done a detailed lengthy side-by-side comparison to confirm that this is the only difference. I would be happy to do so in the near future if anyone is interested.

    scentemental


    I would love to read a comparison of the two. All of the many pages here and elsewhere concerning No 88 all seem to deal with the "classic" formula. It would be nice to have an analysis of the "new" formula on record.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Agonized over the reformulation of Czech&Speake No. 88

    Just another reason own Black Aoud my friend!

  10. #10

    Default Re: Agonized over the reformulation of Czech&Speake No. 88

    As a followup I recently purchased No 88 from Cambridge Chemists and rec'd the frag and the bath oil in rectangular black & white packaging. I take it I got the "new" version?
    Last edited by loungeboy; 27th October 2007 at 04:16 AM.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Agonized over the reformulation of Czech&Speake No. 88

    Quote Originally Posted by loungeboy View Post
    As a followup I recently purchased No 88 from Cambridge Chemists and rec'd the frag and the bath oil in rectangular black & white packaging. I take it I got the "new" version?
    You did, indeed.

    scentemental

  12. #12
    Banned giannis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Agonized over the reformulation of Czech&Speake No. 88

    I had the <vintage>formulation and i have the <new>one.
    On my skin the <new> is more longlasting,i think that this is the <edp>,IMHO.

    Giannis
    Last edited by giannis; 27th October 2007 at 05:39 PM.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Agonized over the reformulation of Czech&Speake No. 88

    Well I'm actually glad I've come late to the no 88 party. I usually find a frag I love, they reformulate it (or discontinue it) and I'm left to pine for the original while grudgingly wearing the new formula. This new version of 88 is all I will know and I am loving it. I smell like the best bar of soap in the world! And the bottle is pretty cool too.
    I'm hoping they expand the line to include shower gel and shampoo, etc. I'd rather have those than the current "burning sticks".
    As for longevity; it does 8-12 hours easily.

  14. #14

    Post Re: Agonized over the reformulation of Czech&Speake No. 88

    I asked Czech & Speake about the subject; they assured me that the formula have never been changed, only the packaging. Is it absolutely clear to you - who have extensive experience with both - that they are not telling the truth? Is it possible, that it's only about the differences in individual bottles or that there are differencies in bottles produced at different time, that have nothing to do with intentional reformulating? Also, might it be, that certain notes getting stronger by time explains the differences?

  15. #15

    Default Re: Agonized over the reformulation of Czech&Speake No. 88

    It is fantastically annoying but frag companies almost never admit to reformulation. Often I think it is because the PR people that one deals with just don't know, maybe they are not really frag experts/enthusiasts.

    Otherwise, they are in terror of bad publicity from reformulation. We all know it happens. Sometimes I think it may even happen without the knowledge of the actual brand themselves as the company who produce the juice change the ingredients due to availability or cost.
    "Don’t try to be original. Be simple. Be good technically, and if there is something in you, it will come out. ” - Henri Matisse.

    "Wear R de Capucci" - Hirch Duckfinder

    reviews

  16. #16

    Default Re: Agonized over the reformulation of Czech&Speake No. 88

    Ive never tried the alleged original, so I cant comment! But often scents that are reformulated are due to the rarity of individual ingredients.
    Look what a tossed salad they've made of Envy.
    Last edited by Sorcery of Scent; 24th April 2008 at 09:43 AM.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Agonized over the reformulation of Czech&Speake No. 88

    Quote Originally Posted by scentemental View Post
    On the Czech & Speake website, they no longer advertise that the new formulation contains "Cassie & Frangipanni" as they did for the old one.
    Sorry, that is not exactly true, this is from their website:



    A favourite with men and women, our signature fragrance, No.88 is a truly English scent. The first and most complex in the Czech & Speake Aromatics Collection, No.88 has a fresh, woody top note of reviving and uplifting bergamot, the richness and warmth of geranium, rose otto, cassie and exotic frangipani. Combined with dry base notes of vetiver and sandalwood, this modern classic has a full-bodied, sophisticated sensuality
    Wondrous is our great blue ship that sails around the mighty sun and joy to everyone that rides along!

  18. #18

    Default Re: Agonized over the reformulation of Czech&Speake No. 88

    Quote Originally Posted by Erfl View Post
    Sorry, that is not exactly true, this is from their website:



    A favourite with men and women, our signature fragrance, No.88 is a truly English scent. The first and most complex in the Czech & Speake Aromatics Collection, No.88 has a fresh, woody top note of reviving and uplifting bergamot, the richness and warmth of geranium, rose otto, cassie and exotic frangipani. Combined with dry base notes of vetiver and sandalwood, this modern classic has a full-bodied, sophisticated sensuality
    Erfl,

    Thanks for the update. At the time of my original posting, both cassie and frangipani were definitely not mentioned in the blurb on the website. That's a recent addition.

    At any rate, smell aside, if one does a side-by-side visual comparison with samples of both the Italian vintage version and the current selling version, one will see that the original juice is considerably darker. That in itself says something.

    I have done extensive comparisons since my original posts and my conclusion is that the older juice is stronger, richer, more complex, and hence different. To my mind, C&S have taken great care in reproducing, as close as possible, the original formula. I have both formulations, and I am more than pleased with the current version. It's not at all far behind the vintage.

    Let me just say that the last entity I would ever trust is the house/company under whose name the fragrance is marketed and anyone who works for that company. I await Dimitri's "inside" information, but remain entirely skeptical we will really learn anything meaningful. If we do, than that would really be a first. I hope I am wrong that we won't learn anything meaningful. Clearly if one has read Luca Turin/Tania Sanchez's and Chandler Burr's respective new books, my skepticism is not at all misplaced. Burr's book, courageously and admirably, makes it clear that the whole basis of the perfume industry is based on lies. That shouldn't come as a surprise to seasoned perfume aficionados.

    A point about reformulations: There are many reasons reformulations take place, some cynical, some rapacious, some practical, and some necessary based on all kinds of contingencies mostly to do with supply and accessibility of raw materials, bases, and individual odorants. The simplest answer,
    I think, is actually quite simple. C&S gave the charge of the manufacturing of their aromatics line to a different company. It's more than likely a matter of access or lack of access to different ingredients first and foremost. Forester, the original producer of the Italian vintage versions, is known for their rose-geranium base, which shows up quite distinctly, with modulations, in Domenico Caraceni, and Washington Tremlett Black Tie. Some people have claimed there aren't any similarities between these and C&S No. 88, but it's quite clear to my nose that they use and modulate to different degrees the same rose-geranium bases significant differences notwithstanding. I am pretty sure it's a proprietary base, and I am pretty sure C&S no longer has access to it since they switched manufacturers. I would imagine this very fact accounts for the difference between the vintage Italian version and the current version of the other fragrances in the Czech & Speake aromatics line. I can only comment on Cuba in this regard. I think there is a difference between the current formulation and the Italian vintage formulation.

    scentemental


    Last edited by scentemental; 23rd September 2008 at 04:55 PM.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Agonized over the reformulation of Czech&Speake No. 88

    Scentemental,

    thanks for your detailed report.Unfortunately I only know the vintage version, I must get a decant of the new
    version to see the difference. Do you know if C&S have changed all their fragrances?
    Wondrous is our great blue ship that sails around the mighty sun and joy to everyone that rides along!

  20. #20

    Default Re: Agonized over the reformulation of Czech&Speake No. 88

    Quote Originally Posted by Erfl View Post
    Scentemental,

    thanks for your detailed report.Unfortunately I only know the vintage version, I must get a decant of the new
    version to see the difference. Do you know if C&S have changed all their fragrances?
    Oh, no problem Erfl. Thank you for pointing out they added the cassie and frangipani back into the description.

    I suspect that they have changed all their fragrances for the same reasons I suggest above.

    I know they discontinued their Rose, their Dark Rose, and their Mimosa fragrances, which might suggest that florals were a more cost effective option while with Forester than with the new company. As always, pretty much everything I write about along these lines is speculation that tries, at the very least, to be well-informed. I always welcome corrections with facts. Unfortunately, as we all know, facts in this industry are rare and hard to come by.

    scentemental

    P.S. Sorry for getting your name wrong in my previous post. That has been corrected.

    Last edited by scentemental; 23rd April 2008 at 04:58 PM.

  21. #21

    Default Re: Agonized over the reformulation of Czech&Speake No. 88

    I stopped into Czech and Speake last month and I noticed changes in all of the fragrances! I picked a new bottle of Frankincense and Myrrh, Citrus Paradisi, and Oxford and Cambridge.

    I bought my first bottle of no. 88 back early in the 1990's and my second bottle from 2005 and sold it to another basenoter. I am pretty familiar with the scent of the old no. 88, but I am working from memory here. To me, the old formula of no. 88 was heavy handed and a little too potent for my purposes, even though it was a very nice scent. I smelled the new formula of no. 88 last month, while in London and was blown away. It's greatly improved ! I asked the staff person if it was reformulated because the new fragrance was much better than the old in my opinion. They assured me there was no change in formula, but it was clear to me that it was different. The fragrance was basically the same, but was lighter and seemed to me to be much livelier in the opening notes - more approachable. I almost bought another bottle because I thought it was very much improved - a personal opnion.

    I also noticed changes in the rest of the Czech and Speake line as well. All of the changes were for the better in terms of quality and likeability of the fragrances. The Frankincense and Myrrh is much better than the old version. I loved the old one, but the new Frankincense is much lighter and has a slightly herbal mint opening note while the frankincense note is not as deep. The myrrh is softened by vetiver? added to the base that I don't recall from the old mix. I know F&M was reformulated because on an earlier visit a different staffer told me it was being reworked, probably along with the change to a new supplier. The Citrus Paradisi is also new, but they claim it is the same formula as their old fragrance which was a grapefruit citrus - they changed the name of this one and the graphics and image on the bottle, but kept the scent formula. However, the formula smells much stronger of musk than the old grapefruit citrus scent did. I like all the changes.

    The oxford and Cambridge scent didn't seem different to me at all - but I still purchased a new bottle to resupply, along with bottles of Frankincense and Myrrh and Citrus Paradisi. I passed on the 88, but I was greatly tempted as it smelled much improved to my nose.
    Last edited by Buzzlepuff; 23rd April 2008 at 08:16 PM.

  22. #22

    Thumbs up Re: Agonized over the reformulation of Czech&Speake No. 88

    Buzzlepuff and scentemental, thank you for fantastic responses! I guess I will just have to settle for the new version, although I fell in love with vintage formulation years ago.

    I agree with you; I never thought they'd tell me if they had reformulated it. Also, the person I contacted probably have no idea about the subject in the first place.

  23. #23
    Dependent pluran's Avatar
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    Default Re: Agonized over the reformulation of Czech&Speake No. 88

    In general it wouldn't make a hell of a lot sense for a perfume company to tell people that the formula had changed.

    C&S has done a good job of maintaning quality.

    A few drops of castoreum would be a great benefit to No. 88.
    Last edited by pluran; 23rd April 2008 at 09:41 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  24. #24

    Default Re: Agonized over the reformulation of Czech&Speake No. 88

    I need to clarifiy this: 200ml splash bottles in the cylindrical container - are those the old formulation, or has the packaging only changed for the 100ml spray? I just bought me the new version and I'm quite happy, but I could get a hold of a cylinder-packed splash if I wanted to (at the price of mortgaging my kidneys or something).
    My Wardrobe
    II est de forts parfums pour qui toute matière/Est poreuse. On dirait qu'ils pénètrent le verre.

  25. #25

    Default Re: Agonized over the reformulation of Czech&Speake No. 88

    Quote Originally Posted by hirch_duckfinder View Post
    It is fantastically annoying but frag companies almost never admit to reformulation. Often I think it is because the PR people that one deals with just don't know, maybe they are not really frag experts/enthusiasts.

    Otherwise, they are in terror of bad publicity from reformulation. We all know it happens. Sometimes I think it may even happen without the knowledge of the actual brand themselves as the company who produce the juice change the ingredients due to availability or cost.
    Can't wait for the industry to react to the new Guide!
    The creed representaive in USA - that's too low in the organization. I hope for more. But dedicating a perfume to the Pope brings more popularity for Creed than Turin-Sanchez could ever dream of smashing. (Another for Obama maybe cooking just now, and just in case they could always name it 'Hillary' and nobody would notice).
    After reading the details described by Burr for Coty's Lovely, I can't believe that any producer would dare changing the product without prior agreement of the brand. There is just too much money involved and too many lawyers watching. However, C&S and the (former?) place of production in Italy makes you wonder.
    Last edited by narcus; 24th April 2008 at 08:46 AM.
    'Il mondo dei profumi è un universo senza limiti: una fraganza puo rievocare sensazioni, luoghi, persone o ancora condurre in uno spazio di nuove dimensioni emozionali' L. V.

  26. #26

    Default Re: Agonized over the reformulation of Czech&Speake No. 88

    I'm a weirdo, I smeared two drops of the Bath oil on my hand some hours ago and it's still going strong. LOL .... ----- don't wash it - don't wash it - LOL ....
    dr.creed's decant sales:
    Crystal Flacon

  27. #27

    Default Re: Agonized over the reformulation of Czech&Speake No. 88

    for my money the new 88 has lost its balls. the old one is so much richer, and in the place of whatever's missing I get a common synthetic-y accord that reminds me of other fragrances, which 88 original never did. it's almost a "fresh" 88! I'm just glad they changed the box along with so there's no chance of me getting the new one!

    side by side I didn't notice any improvement in longevity, which I was hoping for.

  28. #28

    Default Re: Agonized over the reformulation of Czech&Speake No. 88

    Reformuation or not, the one that is currently available at Cambridge Chemists is worth owning a bottle. Still a must own IMO.

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