Note Identification Project - Please Join In!

[Redneck Perfumisto]

Like the little brother running down the street after his sisters on their bicycles.... Wait for me! Wait for me!

I just got my synthetics in the mail today. Yippee! Now I need to run out quickly for my everclear and a nice thick notebook. I will begin sorting out my rose and jasmine type components tonight.

The synthetics box smelled nicer than my hodge-podge of naturals. I'll post my list later. But I agree - there's nothing like a garden of real flowers as study materials. Our few lonely flowers are just barely hanging in there.

Thanks for the tips, purplebird. Coffee filters are great, and gloves sound like a really good idea. Forgot about those - very nice when working with hand-stinky stuff, not to mention sulfuric acid (batteries), weak nerve gas (phosphorus pesticides), and other household hazards.

And while I'm thinking about safety, just in case people are forgetting, please remember goggles, or at the very least, your normal or reading glasses (poor glasses worn >> goggles on shelf). Accidents tend to happen when you're sure they won't. I think that most of our components are pretty tame, but a few of them are probably no fun in the eye. And remember that any chemical is potentially mislabeled, changed, altered, or in a wrong concentration. Not to insinuate anything about our kind suppliers, but we must act as if bad things might happen, just in case they really do. Have a plan for washing out an eye quickly if something gets into it. You may even want to practice. Remember - perfumes and colognes are generally dealt with at arms length, but we tend to bring these tiny vials close to our eyes.

Hoping that this advice is pointless and unnecessary... -Your local safety nerd

[purplebird7]

Thanks, redneck, for the warning. Of course, I was being careless.
*Holds vial away from face*
I'll slow down on the reviews so you can catch up with rose and jasmine.
Please forgive me for discussing orange blossom and the citrus group. I'll take a break then.
(I am only thinking of the sheer number of samples I have, and I want to group them so that this thread does not go on so long as to bore people.)
The Giving Tree - Bitter Orange
From its fruit we get marmelade and the liquors of Triple sec, Grand Marnier and Curacao. From its blossoms we get orange blossom absolute and neroli. From its twigs we get petitgrain. What a gift of nature this tree is.

Orange Blossom - Absolute, Tunesia - One of the most important notes in perfumery. This is a wonderful ingredient--one of my favorites. It, along with rose and jasmine, are the three most important, useful florals. It smells sweeter than rose, but not as sweet as jasmine. In addition, it has a unique characteristic, which I describe as a "dusty" topnote. I cannot find adequate words to describe it. It smells like dust--earthy, like actual particles of dried soil--not like the undesirable matter that collects on one's furniture each week. This quality is strange and endearing to me. I remember it from my childhood, from the old perfumes that my grandmother brought with her from Europe in the earlier part of the 1900s. This aroma is terribly quaint and nostalgic. In the middle, there exists a great, big, honeyed, fruity sweetness and above that there is the dusty, almost greenish top note. I adore orange blossom absolute. If I had a synthetic orange blossom accord, which I don't, I bet the chemists would have removed the dusty topnote. I bet they would have found it too wild, too uncontrollable, too strange and clashing with the honey and orange. However, I prefer this to the prettied-up version of orange blossom that makes its way into multitudes of shampoos and lotions but which is really more like simple orange essence.

Neroli Extra - Morocco/Lebanon - On the other hand, we get neroli from the steam distillation of the very same blossoms, and what a different substance it is. Not anywhere near as floral as orange blossom absolute, it smells closer to the essences of citrus peels that make up most of the citrus notes in perfumery. Neroli is prettier than citrus peel essences, in my opinion. It presents itself as a woody, orangey, somewhat bitter cross between a flower and a fruit peeling. It has a teriffic campherous quality, like the strong aroma that rises from a crushed mint leaf. Importantly, it lends a citrus top note that lasts longer than bergamot, mandarin, or orange. If I were to extend the longevity of those topnotes, the addition of neroli would be how I would accomplish it. This is truly a wonderful substance.

I am combining the orange blossom and neroli and, ah, how beautiful. They bring out the different, contrasting characteristics of the same plant. Now, if only I had some petitgrain... but I don't.

Moving along, I would like to discuss more of the citrus family. Note that the scientific names are similar. All of these trees are imporant to mankind, keeping us healthy with vitamin C and happy with their amazing flavor. We are fortunate to have them.

Citrus aurantium - Bitter orange, bergamot, citron,
Citrus reticulatum - Mandarin
Citrus sinensus - Sweet orange
Citrus paradisi - Grapefruit
Citrus limon - Lemon (I don't have any lemon essence, only lemongrass)

Citrus Peels

Mandarin, Italy - This most closely resembles neroli, only without the charming, campherous top. It sweet-tart and orangey, very interesting, and one of my favorite of the citrus peel notes. Not nearly as tenacious as neroli, but one of the more long-lasting of the peel scents.

Orange Essense, Brazil - This is the sweetest orange aroma of the group; it smells like a glass of fresh orange juice. It is more edible and candylike than mandarin, but I find the mandarin with its alternating tartness more amusing.

Bergamot, Italy- My life would be much worse if it weren't for bergamot. I drink Earl Grey tea every day. It is my absolute favorite flavor of tea. The majority of my perfumes are chypres and contain a large dose of bergamot, which I eagerly seek as soon as I spray them from the bottle. This lovely aroma falls halfway between orange and lemon. It is quite adaptable. I am surprised at how fast this natural bergamot fades. I wonder if a synthetic form of bergamot is used in most perfumes, because this one would not last very long. But while it does, it is lovely.

Pink Grapefruit, unknown origin - This is my daughter's favorite note. I have to admit, it adds a great deal of interest to perfumery. The bittersweet quality is remarkable. It smells realistic, like a thirst-quenching, cold glass of grapefruit juice. I'm not getting any of the off-notes that cause perfumers to turn to synthetics instead of natural grapefruit essence. Perhaps they occur when this substance is mixed with other ingredients.

Lime, Mexico - The bitterest citrus note in my collection, lime is not my favorite aroma. However, it has a strong presence and better longevity than some of the other citrus peel notes. I think this ingredient would best paired with a sweet base. In fact, I think I would change my mind altogether if I found the right base for it. I wonder which one...

[Lady_in_Black]

I'll start with a couple of synths:
Methyl Pamplemousse - 2% aromachemical in carrier oil … a white grapefruit aroma. Very pleasant! At the start it is quite sweet and lacks the slightly bitter, tart nuance of natural graprefruit peel, but afterwards, it veers toward a more citrusy-bitter smell and becomes more “real”. Linda (Perfumer’s Apprentice) says this is used in a remarkable concentration in AA Pamplelune, but I detect neither cat pee nor body odour, which are often mentioned when discussing Pamplelune. It must be said that I didn’t smell them in the actual fragrance either.
Mandarin Aldehyde - 2% aromachemical in carrier oil. Oh-la-la. I perceive this as being a VERY synthetic smell. I adore mandarin as a fruit, but this aldehyde has an inital rotten mandarin smell that doesn’t appeal to me. Then it turns to a plasticky mandarin. Waxed mandarin peel. The smell is bouncing with vitality and can probably have a lifting effect on tired head notes, but it is unmistakeably fake. While drying down, it smells green to me. It is the scent of a plant I know, a bushy shrub with tiny white flowers, but I can’t come up with a name. It is rather tenacious, still there while the methyl pamplemousse has long gone.


On to Natural Bergamot – Italy : comparing a 2% concentration in carrier oil with a 10% concentration in alcohol…unfair, I know! Bergamot always reminds me of citron peel (citrus medica, which is very popular in Italy), although greener and more exhuberant. There’s nothing much to say apart from the fact that the higher concentration has a fresher, almost minty smell but evaporated quickly after the initial burst, while the lower concentration seems sweeter somehow and the oil keeps it anchored to skin a bit longer.


I will write a separate post tomorrow for orange blossom, since my nose is fatigued already. I experimented and did the following: on Friday, I put 10 blossoms in full bloom from my sweet orange tree to macerate, barely covered with alcohol. I think I used an "old way" to create a perfumed cologne!
Well, it's not neroli, but ok, it'll do!
Two days ago, I dabbed a tiny bit on my skin and the smell was fabulous, although fleeting. More tomorrow

BTW, I love your description of orange blossom, P-bird, although it's far from being a fave note for me. I'll look out for the dusty topnote.

[whisperingleaves]

for Citrus

natural Bergamot – I expected it to smell more like Earl Grey tea. It is a bit sweeter and more mellow than I expected

Dihydromyrcenol lime soap

Methyl Pamplemousse almost grapefruit rind

Mandarin Aldehyde – really strange stuff more bitter than citrus. It does suggest mandarin orange but it doesn’t smell like a real one.

With the synthetics especially the last two it is harder to connect what I am smelling to a description. It’s like having to squint to figure out tiny print or a scribbled note.

[purplebird7]

LIB and whisperingleaves, I am going to send you this Pink Grapefruit from Perfumers Apprentice. She has it listed as a natural. It is very nice, bittersweet from the start, and oh-so-realistic. I bet it smells much better than the Methyl Pamplemousse . And the same with the Mandarin from Italy from Eden Botanicals. It's great, probably much better than the Mandarin Aldehyde .

Just wait until this is over, I'll send these to you, along with a whole package of the ones I have here. Save this thread, and we can go back and look over eachother's comments while trading ingredients.

My Bergamot was pretty but short-lived, also. I didn't like it as much as I thought I would, so I started wondering why. The only explanation I have is this: I always smell it in combination with other things--upon opening a foil packet of Earl Grey Tea (Twinings), upon spraying one of my Chypre perfumes, etc. Perhaps I have come to associate bergamot with full aromas, not only the singular note. So, when I finally smelled bergamot alone, it was thinner than I thought. Even full-bore, 100% bergamot is very high-frequency scent. It might be strong at this concentration, but it is still delicate, and fine. It needs support. It needs middle and base notes.

whisperingleaves, I need to smell Dihydromyrcenol when you're done with it. Not that I would like it. Lime soap? Yuck. I don't like lime much, anyway. Here is what Chandler Burr's book The Perfect Scent says about it (please pardon typos; I hate transcribing and I don't have accent marks programmed into my keyboard):

Ellena loathes dihydromyrcenol as much as I do. It's a molecule that smells like sink cleaner spilled on an aluminum counter. (Actually I've met few perfumers who don't dislike it--"I'm at war with this molecule" one of them e-mailed me when I brought it up with him--though often not because of the way it smells but simply because aesteheically it has become a huge eye-roll of a cliche.) Ellena identifies it (not enthusiastically) as opening what he calls "perfume's pase hygienique." (He simply noted, "Dihydromyrcenol was hugely used to scent laundry detergents," and stopped there.)...Now that that molecule has been dumped into 8 million masculine scnets, its a boring cliche.

LIB, your orange blossom tincture sounds divine. I have some mock-orange blossoms on a bush here, and I was going to do the same, but we keep having huge rainstorms every night, and they take all day the next day to build up their scent again.
I bet there is no "dusty" note to the tincture but, rather, it is sweet all the way through. The process of extraction must put that strange note into the orange blossom absolute.

[Asha]

For grapefruit I have:
Citrus paradisi EO (organic) from Frontier
I believe it is cold-pressed from the peel, I put 3 drops on a cotton and wafted

What I smell is pretty much grapefruit skin, and it is quite nice. It is sour and bitter with a little bit of sweetness, same as you would expect if you were to peel a fresh grapefruit.

For bergamot I have:
Citrus bergamia EO from Aura Cacia
I do not know the extraction method, wafted 3 drops on a cotton

Well, I smell Earl Gray tea...also quite nice. It is slightly medicinal and powdery, with an aromatic wood-like component. Not really delicate, but I can see why purplebird would make the comment about needing "support" from other notes. I think most citrus notes are really "top".

I have many, many more citrus scents, but these two have occupied my nose for now

[Lady_in_Black]

When I read your last post, whisperingleaves, I said to myself, girl, you have missed one of the citrus synths. Then I smelled the dihydro-myrcenol and remembered! It doesn't smell like lime or any citrus on my skin...it smells of cheap men's cologne first, and then of lavender, quite powdery and a little sweet. That's why I put it under florals in my list

Sweet orange blossom tincture - origin: my balcony, Italy
Two days have made a difference! Sadly, the alcohol is still very much there, but as it evaporates, the smell is honeyed and densely floral. Then the delicate fragrance of orange blossoms shines through, sweet and powdery and suave. Very true to the real blossoms. Still short-lived . P-Bird, you're right, no dusty note that i can smell, but my tree is a sweet orange tree and not a bitter orange one, thus the scent of the blossoms might be different.

[Asha]

Grapefruit and Bergamot update, approximately 4 hours later:

The grapefruit has mostly bitterness, as most of the sweet and sour has evaporated. This is probably where the perception of urine or BO comes from as it smells sort of "off". I can see why something else in the heart or base would have to take over at this point....

The bergamot still smells mostly like Earl Gray tea, but much less intense and a bit more fresh, tangy and fruity than before. My EO lasts a very long time on the cotton, apparently! It still smells very pleasing, unlike the grapefruit. So far, the help the bergamot needs from heart or base I think is mostly due to fading.

The two aromas diffused and mingled in my office, and is a nice combination, actually.

[tamora]

Hello to all! I just joined the Basenotes Community to be a part in this discussion. i hope i am still in time. just having returned from a course in natural perfumery and smelling the different raw materials and describing them was the most important part for me.

i was looking for a good supplier, googled a lot using the names of raw materiaterals, found the Perfumer's Apprentice kits and next thing i found was this discussion. i think this is an excellent idea!

so what i have right now at home is not really much but here it is:
Bergamot
Lemongrass
Orange
Litsea Cubeba
Petitgrain
Rosewood
Clove
Teetrea
Lavender
Lavandin
Sandalwood
Cedarwood
Ylang-Ylang
Patchouli
Rosemary
Peppermint
Laurel
Frankincense
Niauli
Clary Sage
Rose
Lotus
Geranium
Neroli

will do the sorting and specifying later.

starting with neroli:
orangey but a certain freshness, i also smell a little green note, also a little animalic at the end.

petitgrain: smells like neroli, but greener, herbaceauous.

[maisonstinky]

Welcome Tamora, great to have you aboard as a member. What a great thing that you joined us, and gave your 1st post on Purplebird's project.

I have been reading this thread with a lot of interest , sorry I could not join in , I have been involved in some other projects that have kept me busy. I do have this thread subscribed , and everytime somebody writes a post I do read it. Just wrote a post to welcome Tamora.

Thank you Purplebird for starting this and thank you everyone that is participating. We are learning from you, at least I am .

[purplebird7]

Welcome, tamora, it's nice to have you join the project and our Basenotes community as well. I've got your ingredients on my spreadsheet, and you're really caught up with the discussion so far.
When this is done, I'll get you on the list to smell all the ingredients. I plan to send them to the participants. I'd like to try your petitgrain, for sure.

Hi, maisonstinky! I always enjoy it when you drop by.
Please have some tea (from my teacup there.) Lovely day. So what's new with you?

Aside from that, this is such an interesting and important project for me because I know that the only way my opinions and reviews of perfumes will earn any respect is if I know what I am describing. Everybody listens when a perfumer speaks, because that person has a laboratory full of ingredients to reference. That person knows what 1000 things smell like. Me? I have about 60 ingredients. And many of them are very surprising to me. Indeed, I am shocked to find out how some of these things, that I thought I knew how they smelled, like actually smell.

But we'll get to that later.
Right now, I'd like to say thanks to everyone for his or her interest.
Thanks, even more, for the company of those of you who are helping along. I really enjoy reading about your experiences.
To all of you who are reading, I hope that, someday, you will be curious enough to buy a few samples of your own, based on what you read here, and be surprised at what you smell.

[maisonstinky]

Hi, maisonstinky! I always enjoy it when you drop by.
Please have some tea (from my teacup there.) Lovely day. So what's new with you?

Thanks Purplebird. Always enjoy your posts. I will PM you on what's new with me soon .

[purplebird7]

I must decide which direction to go--to continue with the rest of the fruits (having discussed citrus) or the florals (after rose and jasmine.) This is what I propose to do: Set aside the flowers (because they are a huge category) and finish off the fruits first. Then we can return for the rest of the florals, which includes amazing aromas.

Please make any more comments you would like to make about rose and jasmine.
Redneck Perfumisto, you have some jasmines in your palatte that you haven't discussed. Which do you like better, the grandiflora or the sambac?
Jillsy, you have a rose that you haven't weighed in on. In your opinion, in what way does the scent differ from a live rose? Do you wear rose perfumes? Do you associate rose with soaps or other products?

Fabulous Fruits!
In the fruit category, I have one other entry:
Nectaryl - A synthetic peach-apricot accord by Givaudan.
I had a hard time deciding which peach note to try. Peach in all its incarnations thrills me; Mitsouko, Coco, Diorella, Nahema, Calyx, Cristalle, I even find a certain peachiness about Rush, Maubaussin, and 24, Faubourg, all fragrances that I love.
This Nectaryl is a peasant cross between apricot and nectarine, slightly tangy, comfortingly sweet. It is nowhere near as assertive or strong as I thought it would be; rather it is soft and milky. (It's more like Gucci Rush than Mitsouko.) It seems to be made for combining with other notes to veer in the direction of one's own personal taste. If I had some, I'd try C-14, or another peach or apricot accord. It smells good with mandarin and orange essences, and it smells very good with neroli.

I'm was tempted to put Lemongrass in the fruit category, because it is commonly used as an extender for lemon peel essense. However, I will hold it out and put it in a category with other aromatic and herbal ingredients such as juniper berry, lavendar, mint, cedar, and kitchen herbs.

Jillsy, you've got a peach. Is it synthetic? What perfume does it smell like? Or does it remind you of candy instead?

LIB, you have the fruitest collection of all of us here. Those that remain in your palatte are:
Cassis - Black current.
Melonal - I don't know this one. Dare I suggest, melon?
Aldehyde C14 – Peach. (Famous note, long used in perfumery.)
Methyl Heptine Carbonate - Green, leafy, violet, cucumber. (Should we save this for the green category? I have lots of hard-to-classify scents in there, like clary sage, atlas cedar, hay, mate, vetiver, and others.)
Allyl Amyl Glycolate - Fruity, green, galbanum, pineapple.
I look forward to your impressions of these ingredients.

[Redneck Perfumisto]

Redneck Perfumisto, you have some jasmines in your palatte that you haven't discussed. Which do you like better, the grandiflora or the sambac?

Sorry - I'm getting my house and work in order, and got distracted by both places. I'm ready to begin playing this weekend. I'll start dropping results Friday night or Saturday. I have some samples from The Different Company that I want to use for comparison as well. Very Exciting. Had to get some containers to keep the strong odors of my naturals tolerable - especially if I want to work outside the den or garage. More soon...

[Lady_in_Black]

Hi tamora, and welcome to both Basenotes and this thread. The fact that you've just finished a course on natural perfumery renders your comments even more interesting. I am really looking forward to your and our "little brother" redneck perfumisto's impressions.

P-bird, I am going to send you some C-14 and anything else you wish from my palette. I wholeheartedly agree on what you said about thinking to know how some notes smell. I had a kind of epiphany on a couple of things myself.

I don't remember why I listed the Methyl Heptine Carbonate under "fruity". I'll check again, but probably because it smelled more fruity than anything else to my nose.
_____________
Later: yes, MHC is definitely more fruity than green to my nose. On the other hand, Allyl Glycolate has been misplaced under fruity...no fruit in there whatsoever, but very strong and green - off to the green list it goes. Of course, these are personal evaluations - the MHC might smell green and the Allyl fruity to some, but for me it's exactly the other way round

[Lady_in_Black]

Melonal : 2% in carrier oil = fresh, light, watery melon smell. In fact, it smells more like watermelon than like melon. The fruity side doesn't last long, the impression of something watery remains on skin.

C-14 Peach Aldehyde aka Gamma-Undecalactone : 2% in carrier oil. I was pretty excited to smell this historic aldehyde, and my expectations were more than fulfilled. Imagine shiny, golden, juice-dripping slices of a peach which is so ripe it almost borders on overripe. That's what C-14 smells like. It is wonderfully fruity-sweet, milky, creamy, and oh so smooth I just love it. Does it smell natural? I don't think so. It's as natural as a perfect picture of a perfect peach. Time passes but this velvety peach just keeps going.

Now I'd be rather curious to smell the Nectaryl described by P-bird and to compare them. And I will have to revisit Mitsouko, which I dismissed a long time ago, with this note in mind.

I don't want to smell anything else tonight. C-14 will be my SotE.

[jillsy]

Oops I'm back. Bit late but here's my thoughts on the some of the smells discussed so far.

Petitgrain - very strong, greenish citrus. Can't explain too well but it definitely needs diluting! I'm more of a fan of the other citruses methinks.

Sweet orange (synthetic/fragrance oil) - nothing like real orange. I have no clue what it smells like but there's something vaguely citrus. Maybe it's too old now. "Orange and vanilla" fragrance oil smells much more realistic (used it to make scented soap - smelled very much like the fruit)

Comparing the rose fragrance oil I have to Tea Rose (Perfumer's Workshop) and Fleurs de Bulgarie. It smelled just like the Tea Rose, hardly anything like the Creed (lot of musk in that one). After about 5min it changed though to green, spicy tea rose. Not bad, but not sweet enough for me to appreciate by itself :P

Yes the peach is synthetic (I'm not too sure what's in it though) and it smells rather like the fruit, but bordering peach lollies. Vaguely reminds me of Peach Hyacinth by Bathed and Infused but other than that I don't really have much to compare it to. I know Mitsouko has a peach note but I can't smell it (yet).


Wow I love this thread, it's so informative!

[Lady_in_Black]

Cassis - Givaudan reconstitution - 2% in carrier oil : it smells very much like black currant berries taste, with a tiny citrusy (acidic) nuance and a deeper inky facet.

Methyl Heptine Carbonate - 2% in carrier oil : Interestingly, my nose picks up an intensely fruity smell, a mixed fruit salad where I am not able to identify single notes. The fermented fruit pulp smell in Black Orchid comes to mind but, while I love that note in BO, MHC didn't really impress me.

More to C-14. In his book "The Secret of Smell", Luca Turin says that the one used in Mitsouko is delta-undecalactone, also called Persicol, which he places in the lactones chapter. Also, when talking about aldehydes, he doesn't consider those with a number above C-12. No mention of C-14, C-16 (strawberry aldehyde) and C-18 (coconut aldehyde). SO, are the true aldehydes only those from 1 to 12 and the others lactones? It puzzles me - I'm no chemist and no expert either, so I'd love those in the know to chime in. Please?

[Redneck Perfumisto]

NIGHT OF THE LIVING JASMINES

Well, it's almost that bad. Living in an everclear-free state, I'm waiting for my perfumer's alcohol to arrive by post. Thus, I've had to do my experimentation with various mixtures of 50% vodka and 70% isopropanol. I sort of think that the fact I'm getting any results at all is pretty neat. Still, poor solubility and rubbing alcohol topnotes are making this experiment into a sort of beauty pageant between plant monsters, robots, and Miss France. Miss France? That requires some explaining...

I decided that I needed a control for my experiments. The only jasmine scent that I have is... Jasmin de Nuit by The Different Company - a creation of Céline Ellena. Wow! I didn't fully realize just how good her work is until I smelled that "positive control" in comparison with my simple naturals and single-molecule synthetics. It's clear that Céline was able to take a jasmine of some kind (Egyptian according to the web site: http://www.thedifferentcompany.com/S..._62/index.html), and turn it into something even better than nature. Way better. Just beautiful. Wow! I never appreciated modern floral perfumes as much as I am tonight. It's easy for us woodchucks (TGL's term - I love it!) to get fairly detailed and perfumista over our woody scents, but to dismiss a lot of floral scents as simply "floral", or whatever flower is front and center. Well, there's some serious olfactory technology going into floral, boys.

I'm seeing the same thing as other people in terms of my Jasmine Grandiflora (India, CO2) versus my normal Jasmine Absolute (India). The Grandiflora CO2 is much nicer and sweeter than the normal absolute. Definitely less of the fecal, musty, and earthy stuff. Although in drydown the Absolute was quite nice. I would love to have a sample of the Egyptian, which Purplebird preferred over both the Grandiflora and Indian absolute, but if it's anything like the Egyptian jasmine in JdN, then it has to be good.

I pulled out a couple of my jasminy synthetics, hoping that if I was unable to find close agreement of JdN with my jasmine naturals, I might find agreement with a synthetic. I tried hedione, both as a 12% solution and as pure liquid. It had a nice odor, a little floral, but not strong to me (?). Not sure if my nose is simply dead at this point. I was reaching for the coffee quite a bit. Fresh ground is awesome in that respect. And then I pulled out benzyl acetate. Wow! Powerful, fruity stuff, it resembles ethyl acetate (paint & household solvent) and the other acetates used in gunpowder solvents. Lots and lots and lots of volume. Maybe a bit jasminy, but not really. It's totally unlike the naturals, and has major penetration. It's not listed on the bottle of JdN, but a similar substance is - benzyl salicylate - which I'll try later. Now I'm seeing how you could seriously alter a natural odor with something synthetic, and make a ton of money doing it. Robots are lookin' really good right now. But to be completely honest...maybe not as good as Miss France!

All in all, like my first day in organic lab. I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm getting the lay of the land. Starting out at the bottom. And I think I appreciate better now the huge effort - both as art and science - that must go into creating a beauty like Jasmin de Nuit. Perfumery ain't for wimps, amigos.

[Redneck Perfumisto]

Cassis - Givaudan reconstitution - 2% in carrier oil : it smells very much like black currant berries taste, with a tiny citrusy (acidic) nuance and a deeper inky facet.

Methyl Heptine Carbonate - 2% in carrier oil : Interestingly, my nose picks up an intensely fruity smell, a mixed fruit salad where I am not able to identify single notes. The fermented fruit pulp smell in Black Orchid comes to mind but, while I love that note in BO, MHC didn't really impress me.

More to C-14. In his book "The Secret of Smell", Luca Turin says that the one used in Mitsouko is delta-undecalactone, also called Persicol, which he places in the lactones chapter. Also, when talking about aldehydes, he doesn't consider those with a number above C-12. No mention of C-14, C-16 (strawberry aldehyde) and C-18 (coconut aldehyde). SO, are the true aldehydes only those from 1 to 12 and the others lactones? It puzzles me - I'm no chemist and no expert either, so I'd love those in the know to chime in. Please?

Greetings, Lady! I don't know much about perfumes yet, but I know a lot about aldehydes and lactones. The way it works doesn't have anything (really) to do with size (the number after C). You could have C-200 aldehyde. It just wouldn't smell like much - way too heavy. C-1 aldehyde (formaldehyde) has a powerful volatility, and it just gets less and less as the number goes up.

Aldehyde means it has a carbon on the end of a chain with just one oxygen double-bonded to it, like this:

R-CH=O

(Both the H and the O are bound to the C - it's just drawn that way to keep it on one line)

The R can be anything that makes up the rest of the molecule. Now if you add another oxygen and another R group (I'll call it R') where you had a hydrogen, you get this, which is called an ester:

R-C=O
....|
...OR'

(I've used periods to space things to the right - hope it works in your font).

A simple ester is ethyl acetate, which you get from linking ethyl alcohol and acetic acid:

CH3-C=O
........|
.......O-CH2-CH3

Acetic acid is CH3-C(=O)-OH when drawn on one line. Parentheses are used to show that two things to the right are connected to the carbon - the first oxygen (2 bonds) and the second oxygen (by one).

Ethyl alcohol is CH3-CH2-OH and is easily drawn on one line.

The top part is the acetic acid part, minus an OH The bottom part is the ethyl alcohol part, minus an H. That's actually how a lot of esters are made - by reacting an acid and an alcohol and removing a water molecule (H-O-H).

And if the R and the R' are hooked together, you get a lactone:

CH-CH-C=O
|...........|
CH-CH-O (I had to use periods to space out the vertical bonds and other stuff)...

or more clearly (it's called delta-valerolactone) .

Basically, lactones are esters with a ring instead of two separate R pieces. Esters have a nice, fruity odor. I haven't smelled a lot of lactones, but I imagine they're pretty much like other types of esters. Here's the one you were mentioning in Mitsouko, delta-undecalactone:



It's beautiful, but not as much as Mitsouko!

[whisperingleaves]

Just checking in. I would love to trade samples it will be fun to smell some other notes.

I am away from my samples for the weekend but will sort out the fruits and try to sniff them and report on Sunday when I get back. I need to leave again on Monday (flying that time) If anyone has a thought for a direction to go next I'll take a few things along with me so I can keep playing.

thanks for the chemistry primer redneck perfurmisto

Welcome tamora I'm glad you are joining in on the fun.

[tamora]

thank you for the warm welcome you gave me here! i feel i have come to the right place for me. because it really is fun to share olfactory impressions and i am very impressed with all the knowledgeable posts here. concerning my experience i must confess i am an absolute - if determined - beginner. until some weeks ago i had no experience at all about perfume (will this get me expelled?) let alone the raw materials. it was a kind of new years resolution for me: "this year i want to get acquainted with the world of fragrances." and so i started.

litsea cubeba (eo, china): first impression pure bigsized lemon, after some seconds it develops into something pleasantly mellow, and with some zesty notes. the odour intensity of it is enormous i would give it an 9 out of ten.

orange (eo, california) warm and sweet but delicately so. made me smile immediately.

bergamot (eo, italy): halfway between lemon and orange, very suave. also a little waft of damp herbs. definitely there is more to is than just "earl grey".

concerning fragrance oils, i have omitted them from my first list. but in stock are:

peach
tobacco
heather
frangipani
tuberose
lindenblossom
musk
amber

peach: fragrance oil. it smells nice and peachy only for the fraction of a second. then immediately to be overlayered by a soapy-metal-like smell. like somebody has dug into a fruit bowl full of ripe peaches and afterswards washed his hands frantically with a type of soap they use in trainstations.

[purplebird7]

Oh, gosh, LIB that's what I was really looking for in a peach, your description of C-14 is it. Nectaryl is a subtle peach. It is much more milky. It's a "sneaky" peach like that found in Gucci Rush. In the presence of other ingredients, it recedes into the background. But a day and a half later, the test strip is still filling the room with milky peach aroma. That's what I call soft but tenacious. Yes, indeed, we will trade and compare.

jillsy - I liked neroli, so I wonder probably will like petitgrain more than you. You will have to smell the entire family of natural orange products (orange blossom absolute, neroli, sweet orange, and mandarin) which you will do when I send these samples around at the end of the project. Chandler Burr doesn't like natural orange blossom and neroli. Please read his opinions on scents in this interview from our own Basenotes:
http://www.basenotes.net/articles/20...materials.html

That Perfumer's Workshop Tea Rose is amazing and plantlike. I tried it and t hought it came very close to a real rose, although too uncompromising to be an actual perfume that I would enjoy wearing for long. I still entertain thoughts of buying a bottle and layering it with musk or vanilla or patchouli, but I have had unpredictible results with layering that I think have to do with chemical interaction. In reality, I put one scent on one arm and another scent on the other arm and call it good.

Peach and hyacinth together sound like something I would like. The aspect of the Mitsouko peach that makes it so good to me is that it is more aromatic than edible. I get tired of fruit scents that smell like candy. They must have a floral, woody, musky, or other overriding characteristic in order for me to enjoy wearing them. I think I just get hungry if they smell like lollies.

LIB I am intrigued by cassis. It has been described by some as smelling slightly "rancid" and I wondered how that came into play. I doubt if I could identify black current in a perfume yet. I need to go smell my daughters AA Grosselina.

I bet I would like the Melonal. One of my favorite fruity florals (on an extremely short list of this genre) is Guir Ness Laila which has watermelon and wildflowers, although it claims to be all-natural.

Redneck Perfumisto thanks for the information about aldehydes.
Now, plese bear with my ignorance.
Can one physically take acetic acid (which smells like vinegar) and ethyl alcohol (which is grain alcohol) and put them together and get ethyl acetate? Merely by mixing?

Don't laugh. I mixed rice vinegar with Everclear and didn't get anything that smelled like fruit (ester) or milk (lactone.)
O.K. I admit, even I am laughing at myself.

Another question for you: Why are most fruit notes synthetic?

[Lady_in_Black]

Oh, gosh, LIB that's what I was really looking for in a peach, your description of C-14 is it.
...........
...........
LIB I am intrigued by cassis. It has been described by some as smelling slightly "rancid" and I wondered how that came into play. I doubt if I could identify black current in a perfume yet. I need to go smell my daughters AA Grosselina.

Yeah p-bird, C-14 is one of the molecules I really loved in my palette. It is a creamy note more than a milky one. Not that I dislike milky notes. For instance, I love milky jasmine.
The C-14 molecule has definitely an edible smell and of course, a scent based only on C-14 would tire the nose in no time.
Speaking of Mitsouko, this afternoon I smelled Mitsouko in EdP and parfum, seeking the peach note. Hmmm....it was a little more evident in the parfum but all in all, it was only another confirmation that I'm not a Mitsouko girl. I find the other notes extremely disturbing
If I should mention off the top of my head which scent features a peach note similar to C-14 I'd say Clive Christian X for women (peaches and cream).

As to cassis, it smells fruity-inky to me...rancid? Nope, not that I can tell.

Redneck Perfumisto, thank you so much for the "technical" explanation! Do you also know if gamma and delta-undecalactone smell the same? The question arises because the one I have is "gamma-" and he speaks about "delta-"

[tamora]

p-bird: as far as i know fruits do not contain essential oils with the exception of citrus fruits. same thing with vegetables with the exception of carrots(seeds). therefore you have do to a kind of workaround with synthetics.

[Asha]

Fennel and celery produce essential oil, as far as I know. It is probably also from the seeds.

[purplebird7]

tamora, I understand--no essential oils in most fruits=no ability to distill anything. It makes sense.

Redneck Perfumisto, I apologize for not picking up on the fact that you didn't have Everclear. I could've shipped you a bottle a long time ago.
Night of the Living Jasmines, indeed. Besotted flowers.
Fortunately your samples are heavy on the herbs and woods, so you haven't missed much of the action yet.

I agree that the role of synthtics are to work together with the naturals.
Alone, the naturals are often too "busy" with undesirable traits occurring along with the desirable traits. Mixing a number of naturals together (as evidenced by the aroma of a full palatte of natural ingredients) can yield a revolting mess. Historically, the same essences were overused because of their known suitability in combination.
On the other hand the synthetics, alone, can smell dull, flat, or one-dimensional. They can also be high-pitched and overdone in certain aspects. Or they can be unpleasant in their presentation--coming on too strongly, fading suddenly, or persisting too long.
But together, they support eachother. Each makes up for the shortcomings of the other. It is as it should be.

Have we discussed our fruites now?
Is it time to move onto the florals?

Next category:
Strange Florals - Some Common and Uncommon Flowers
I'll try to take this slowly so that Redneck Perfumisto gets his alcohol.
*Back to the laboratory*

We have the following florals remaining:
tamora: frangipani, tuberose, heather, linden
LIB: Yang-ylang, Helichrysum (Immortelle), Lyral, Lilial, Hydroxy-citronellal, Heliotropin, Dihydro-Myrcenol, Hedione, Ionone Alpha, Linalool.
jillsy - violet, geranium, rose geranium, lavendar, ylang-ylang, cherry blossom
Redneck Perfumisto - German blue Chamomile, Roman chamomile, Geranium Bourbon, Ylang-ylang, Spikenard (in the valerian family), Tagates (in the daisy family), Helichrysum/Imortelle, Linden, Lotus.
purplebird7 - Lavendar, Champaca, Genet (Broom), Linden, Geranium Bourbon, Tuberose.

[Redneck Perfumisto]

Redneck Perfumisto thanks for the information about aldehydes.
Now, plese bear with my ignorance.
Can one physically take acetic acid (which smells like vinegar) and ethyl alcohol (which is grain alcohol) and put them together and get ethyl acetate? Merely by mixing?

Don't laugh. I mixed rice vinegar with Everclear and didn't get anything that smelled like fruit (ester) or milk (lactone.)
O.K. I admit, even I am laughing at myself.

Another question for you: Why are most fruit notes synthetic?

Great questions! I'm not laughing - your question is often asked by college kids taking organic chemistry.

And I admire your experimentalist nature. Few students would simply go off and try something like that on a hunch. But that is the way scientists keep each other honest. If you're thinking of a second career, I can tell you that you would be great - and probably a thorn in the side of less careful scientists!

Generally speaking, esters are NOT made simply by mixing acids and alcohols neat (I don't know, but I don't ever recall seeing this as a practical method for any instance). For direct esterification (what you're doing), you need to add an acid catalyst or some kind of reagent, and often heat, and usually taking some kind of action to assure the removal of water, such as distilling out either the ester product or the water byproduct. Now if you were actually intending to manufacture ethyl acetate, I can tell you that you've picked a hard case. But you can use your case to demonstrate formation of ethyl acetate. Let me refer you to an example student laboratory exercise: http://www.chemheritage.org/Educatio...vity/ester.htm. In this case, you use a small amount of sulfuric acid (concentrated and present in excess, it absorbs water) to simply create the fruity odor of the ester product. This type of experiment, typically using a solid acid like benzoic acid, is often the first experiment that people do in organic laboratory.

But I caution you not to try this without proper safety equipment, procedures, etc. Concentrated sulfuric acid is nasty stuff. (I would not have to warn most people about this, readers, but purplebird shows all the signs of being a a home chemist - like I was in my youth!)

Lactones often form more easily, since the parts of the molecule which are reacting are basically right there already, and because they often form very favorable rings. But not all lactones are so favored, and so more difficult methods may have to be undertaken.

Your question about fruit notes being mostly synthetic is interesting, and would also have a group of scientists debating and arguing almost immediately (including whether it was true at all!). Let me say it this way - "fruity" notes are easy, because all you have to do is make a small ester, and it's bound to smell like some sort of fruit, although not necessarily one on this planet! Add to this the fact that real fruits have a lot of chemicals (including many that are not esters) that are smelly and readily isolated and separated in good quantities, and you have a recipe for over-abundance of fruit-reminiscent "synthetic" notes in the perfumer's palette. It's important to remember that many "synthetics" are actually most easily isolated from natural sources, possibly with some kind of subsequent reaction. The border between natural and synthetic is blurry. Once you deviate from pure, natural isolates, you get into complexity fast. There are a limited number of fruit essences, but there is a treasure trove of fruit components, fruit-reminiscent synthetics, and small mixtures of these things.

Working with only natural substances or things directly isolated from naturals is a hard row to hoe. It's like certain restrained forms of rock climbing, where things like pre-set anchors and even ropes are forbidden. We admire greatly those who can do difficult climbs this way, but harder climbs require ropes, and the hardest climbs require things like bolts. Neither form of climbing is less admirable than the other - they just solve different classes of problems. Likewise, the natural perfumer is restrained to a smaller palette. But when they create beauty, there is a certain extra admiration for having done it the hard way. This does not mean that we cannot also love the work of the unrestrained artist, who with a bigger palette creates things we didn't even think were possible.

You are quite right - the naturals and synthetics support each other. As it should be.

[Redneck Perfumisto]

Redneck Perfumisto, thank you so much for the "technical" explanation! Do you also know if gamma and delta-undecalactone smell the same? The question arises because the one I have is "gamma-" and he speaks about "delta-"

By experience (having smelled neither), I can tell you nothing - but by science, I can tell you most certainly that they do not smell the same. The gamma and delta tell you how big the ring of the lactone is. The ring sizes are alpha (3), beta (4), gamma (5), delta (6), epsilon (7), etc., and omega (generalized end). Gamma and delta form nice rings (5 and 6), so they're most common.

The only fragrance substances with almost the same properties are mirror images, and even those smell different to people (because our specifically right or left "handed" biomolecules can "see" the difference in handedness of other molecules, just as your right hand detects another person's right or left hand upon a handshake). But when you make a really big change in the molecule, like a bigger ring, it's essentially guaranteed (pun intended) that there will be a difference in odor. If there was not at least some difference, that would actually be really interesting.

You folk are asking the most interesting questions! I just love it.

[whisperingleaves]

I've got Aldehyde C-14 - I am not quite getting the dreamy peach that others have. I am not smelling much of anything. I'll have to get someone else to smell this and see if it is me or it.

Allyl amly glycolate - pineapple definitely. a bit synthetic but definitely pinapple.


Cassis - lots of fruit. not sure I can place it as cassis but wonderfully fruity I am getting peach as part of this, berry too.

For the other florals it looks like I have
synthetics:
3 muguets (hydroxycitronella, lilial, and lyral) a violet alpha ionone
natural Immortelle (helichysum italicum)

I may try to take them along so I can keep playing. They are small so they and a few samples to tide me over for the week ought to fit in one of the small bags TSA will pass.

[Redneck Perfumisto]

I've got Aldehyde C-14 - I am not quite getting the dreamy peach that others have. I am not smelling much of anything. I'll have to get someone else to smell this and see if it is me or it.

I get this one, but it's really light compared with the other aldehydes - at least, for me. But I didn't dilute it - just right off the top of the vial. I was surprised by how close these aldehydes were to the fruits labeled on the vials.

[purplebird7]

...And I admire your experimentalist nature. Few students would simply go off and try something like that on a hunch.

Thank you. You really made me feel good today. How sweet. I thought I did a brainless thing.
In one of the few chemistry classes I had in college, I had the great experience of working with concentrated acids and alkalines. Those are terrifying things. We would pipette them into aqueous solutions (use a glass tube to suck them up and add them to water-based chemicals) and they would boil and spatter like hot grease as soon as they contacted the water. The glacial acetic acid smelled horrible--hot, piercing, penetrating, sourness like nothing else--it curled your toes to smell it. They were kept in big glass carboys and handled only under a hood for ventilation. One guy ended up with an eyepatch before the end of class.

My daughter is a chemistry and French major, and you can guess what I am hoping for a career for her...

The border between natural and synthetic is blurry. Once you deviate from pure, natural isolates, you get into complexity fast. There are a limited number of fruit essences, but there is a treasure trove of fruit components, fruit-reminiscent synthetics, and small mixtures of these things.

I'm finding that to be true. Note pyramids have become almost pure and simple lying. I used to ask: Is it apple or grapefruit? Is it peach or guava? And your explanation answers my question--it is whatever the chemist had in mind. It is all of those fruits; it is whatever it smells like to you. This "over-abundance of fruit-reminiscent 'synthetic'notes in the perfumer's palette" is obvioius in today's perfumery.

I was surprised by how close these aldehydes were to the fruits labeled on the vials.

Personally, I can't wait to mix C-14 with Nectaryl. Plus some citrus essences.

Likewise, the natural perfumer is restrained to a smaller palette. But when they create beauty, there is a certain extra admiration for having done it the hard way. This does not mean that we cannot also love the work of the unrestrained artist, who with a bigger palette creates things we didn't even think were possible.

Your rock-climbing analogy is apt. I think the two disciplines need to call a truce. As soon as I begin to discuss the subject, I am immediatly gripped by paranoia that a flame war will ensue, and this thread will be shut down. Its such a loaded topic. More than artistry is on the line--ethical considerations abound. I'll stop now.

I've got Aldehyde C-14 - I am not quite getting the dreamy peach that others have. I am not smelling much of anything. I'll have to get someone else to smell this and see if it is me or it..

Did you dilute it and put it on a test strip? Dilution in alcohol helps diffuse the scent.
Then leave the test strip in a room. Now leave the room, yourself. Later, come back and smell the room.
That is how I best smelled the Nectaryl. I had the same response. The "headspace" is important for smelling peach--the area above the scent where the gas rises off the liquid. After I left the test strip alone in a room, I smelled peach for days, literally, upon entering this room.

Cassis- lots of fruit. not sure I can place it as cassis but wonderfully fruity I am getting peach as part of this, berry too..

It smelled like jam to me. Fruit preserves. Jelly of an unknown kind, but something dark red and gooey.

For the other florals it looks like I have
synthetics:
3 muguets (hydroxycitronella, lilial, and lyral) a violet alpha ionone
natural Immortelle (helichysum italicum)

I may try to take them along so I can keep playing. They are small so they and a few samples to tide me over for the week ought to fit in one of the small bags TSA will pass.

Oh my gosh, you are such a trooper. Bless your heart. This is your true initiation as a Basenoter. You are hauling vials of stuff to analyze with you during trips. We all do that!

[Lady_in_Black]

I've got Aldehyde C-14 - I am not quite getting the dreamy peach that others have. I am not smelling much of anything. I'll have to get someone else to smell this and see if it is me or it.

Allyl amly glycolate - pineapple definitely. a bit synthetic but definitely pinapple.

Oh dear, I thought your dilution of C-14 would be stronger than mine, whisperingleaves, due to the diffusiveness granted by alcohol. Linda told me I'm the only one who got the kit in carrier oil, due to shipping restrictions for overseas parcels. On the other hand, the oil would "hold" the scent longer.

And I really have to smell that Allyl again....I want to get the pineapple note

I get this one, but it's really light compared with the other aldehydes - at least, for me. But I didn't dilute it - just right off the top of the vial. I was surprised by how close these aldehydes were to the fruits labeled on the vials.

I agree with p-bird, you need to smell them diluted and I would add, on skin. The difference between smelling them from the vial and on skin is remarkable.

[tamora]

tuberose (fragrance oil): the rich sweetness of the smell is simply overpowering. like you have searched for many years for the ideal flower and finally found it. you just want it to last. it smells pure, aaaah, the sheer whiteness of it... the smell an angel should wear . funny, i did not smell any of this carnal, erotic notes some are so excited about. but it certainly was the most longlasting fragrance i ever tested. i smelled yesterday´s strip and it still was going very strong.


ylang-ylang (eo, asia) for me this is not at all a pleasant smell, it is kind of a flower exaggeration. it borders on the hawaii-kitschy, reminiscent of tropic countries when it is too hot. i also smell some clove and carnation. very exotic, very heavy.

[tamora]

I agree with p-bird, you need to smell them diluted and I would add, on skin. The difference between smelling them from the vial and on skin is remarkable.

did you ever come across a monclin, basically a bowl with a hole in it where the strip is passed through??
http://perfumemaking.blogspot.com/2007/09/monclin.html

sounds promising for me, still have to look for a diamond point drill.

[Lady_in_Black]

did you ever come across a monclin, basically a bowl with a hole in it where the strip is passed through??
http://perfumemaking.blogspot.com/2007/09/monclin.html

sounds promising for me, still have to look for a diamond point drill.

Tamora, I read many times about the Monclin and experienced the following: a couple of niche perfume stores over here started to use paper glasses: they spray the scent inside and so you have a kind of Monclin experience. Never with a real Monclin though

Going slowly here, waiting for Redneck P's alcohol to arrive, but I'll start the floral notes.

Ylang-Ylang, essential oil, country unknown, 5% concentration in alcohol: it starts with a BLAST! And this blast is extremely unpleasant - who would have thought? It smells strongly of wet dog, wet hay, licorice powder. Maybe my concentration is too high... however, surprise! As soon as the initial alcohol/eo punch evaporates, the smell is soft, powdery, clove-spiked...absolutely agree with you, tamora....very reminiscent of carnation, and I'll add the kind of wild deep pink carnation with the smaller, less complicated blooms. I see it spicing up less incisive floral notes, or paired with leather (ok, I am a weird leather obsessed gal) ... maybe to render orris more powdery and floral? I start understanding why it is largely used...its possibilities seem endless.

[purplebird7]

That's a really neat device.
I once put some Chanel test strips in a brandy glass and covered it with aluminum foil, because the SA would not give us any in a test vial, and the next day, it made a gorgeous aroma, much stronger than trying to sniff the test strip directly.

tamora I didn't order ylang-ylang, but I've smelled it before, so I'm glad that you tackled that descripton. I remember that it did seem "dramatic," a bit like jasmine only less beautiful in my opinion. I must requst that you send me your sample temporarily when this is done so that I can smell it. Anything with a clove note usually pleases me.

LIB and jillsy, you both have ylang-ylang, as does redneck perfumisto (Hurry up, delivery of perfumer's alcohol.)
Do you want to start in on that note?

I have tuberose, so I'll start on that.

Tuberose, absolute, India - UGH. Gack. Yuck. This is the carnal flower! Oh my gosh. This is nothing like any of the tuberose perfumes that I have ever smelled. It is not sweet at first. It is fetid. It smells rotten... Then there is a minty interlude, and some sweetness creeps forth... Now the sweetness is intensifying. I guess if it smells like any flower, it is a bit like rose becasuse it is definitely spicy. Also, there is a heady sweetness like lilac. Over it all looms the annoying rubbery, pungent smell. Saltiness, too. And don't forget, the rotten flowers.
People, this is not pleasant at all to me.
How do they make perfume out of this?
jillsy, you must have an accord, because you would not describe it as the "ideal flower" at all.
Do the rest of you have tuberose absolute? I can't wait to see what you think of this devil.
Gack, awful. I must mix this with other notes. Maybe some magic will occur.

[Quarry]

did you ever come across a monclin, basically a bowl with a hole in it where the strip is passed through??
http://perfumemaking.blogspot.com/2007/09/monclin.html
sounds promising for me, still have to look for a diamond point drill.

Thanks for this info.
My imagination is running wild with the notion of homemade monclins.
Wonder if this is how Grenouille started? Glass Cupping Set
Purp, watch your mailbox.

[Lady_in_Black]

Hey P-bird, I already started on that note before you posted.... is my post visible at all? Well, I see it

[tamora]

lotus (eo, india, 10% in alcohol): i bought this as lotus essential oil in mysore/india. if it is a true lotus i cannot tell lacking comparisons. but i like it very much for its very distinct and hard to classify fragrance. for me when smelling it it is not so much floral than earthy with a hint of powdery note. it evokes the impression of a beautiful geometric figure in whitegold, bringing the hustle of daily life to a perfect standstill. my musical connotation with this lotus oil: definitely the soothing sounds of tibetan bowls. ommmmmmm!

talking of monclins: the diamond drill is still waiting out there to be bought. so this evening i put the strip with the lotus into an empty jam jar with a lid, well worth a try!

[purplebird7]

Hey P-bird, I already started on that note before you posted.... is my post visible at all? Well, I see it

LIB - My apologies. Of course I see your post; it's right before mine.
Sorry. I'm getting confused, also.
Too...many...notes...to...smell...

OMG, I have got to send you this tuberose, ladies.
You won't believe the way it smells.

Redneck perfumisto, you have tuberose absolute, do you not?
Go ahead and smell it neat, no dilution. It doesn't change much with alcohol, maybe it makes it sweeten faster, but do it anyway and confirm my opinion that this is godawful stuff.

[jillsy]

I'll probably be a little late with my posts (exam time).

Purplebird, they could be accords for all I know. I have no clue what is in a lot of my fragrance oils.

[Asha]

I just packed my EO's today, but I have asked for an "early delivery" to my temporary residence. Hopefully I'll have all my babies back within 7-10 days

[Lady_in_Black]

Heliotropin, 2% concentration in carrier oil: it smells warm, powdery, vanillic, but unmistakeably floral to my nose. The scent is delicate and fleeting. I cannot detect any almond-y facet - on the other hand, I think the cherry pie-like aspect is there. To give you an impression, it smells much more like Serge Lutens Rahat Loukoum than, say, Etro Heliotrope, where I guess a generous amount of another component smelling like almonds was used.

[purplebird7]

... they could be accords for all I know. I have no clue what is in a lot of my fragrance oils.

Undoubtedly the tuberose is an accord. Whew. Wait til you smell the real thing.

I just packed my EO's today, but I have asked for an "early delivery" to my temporary residence. Hopefully I'll have all my babies back within 7-10 days

Oh, I hope you do. We're getting ahead of you here. I'm sorry, I promised I would start this in June, so I did.
When you get your stuff, just chime right in, even if we have moved on to other notes. I don't mind backtracking.

[B]Heliotropin[/B...it smells warm, powdery, vanillic, but unmistakeably floral to my nose. The scent is delicate and fleeting. I cannot detect any almond-y facet - on the other hand, I think the cherry pie-like aspect is there. ...

I bet I would like that. Put that one on my swap list, too.
I'll send my entire load of samples around when this is done. Whoever get it, send it on to the next person.

I had a hard time discerning between almond and heliotropin accords. My first experience with this note came as a child, smelling the Jergens Lotion that my grandmother always used to wear. I'm sure that was almond. Then I found out about heliotrope when I joined Basenotes a few years ago and got a sample of Etro Heliotrope from someone. That was quite enjoyable.

I think heliotrope has more vanilla, while both heliotrope and almond share the cherry note. (Does that statement make sense?)

[Lady_in_Black]

I checked and in fact, three scents I know well that feature heliotrope notes also list a separate almond note:

SL Rahat Loukoum: fresh white almond, crushed cherry pits, hawthorn, heliotrope, Turkish rose, balsam, tonka bean, aldehydes, white honey, musk and vanilla

Etro Heliotrope, with notes of heliotrope, sweet almond, vanilla, fruit notes, ylang-ylang, and petit grain

Mazzolari Alessandro: bitter almonds, honey, heliotrope, and vanilla.

So my nose could be right to tell me that heliotropin has no almond thing going on.

Purplebird, I would like to smell real heliotrope flowers. I tried to get hold of a couple of heliotrope plants for my balcony, without success. Nobody knows this plant over here

To my nose, real almonds (either fresh ones, roasted ones or cooking almond extract) don't have a cherry note

[purplebird7]

[I]I checked and in fact, three scents I know well that feature heliotrope notes also list a separate almond note...So my nose could be right to tell me that heliotropin has no almond thing going on.

Sure thing.
Perfumers seem to combine heliotrope with almond and vanilla. So that's why I always associate heliotrope with those notes--every time.
So, it's no fair. We can't be sure what we are smelling.

To my nose, real almonds (either fresh ones, roasted ones or cooking almond extract) don't have a cherry note

Strangely, I do smell cherry in almond extract. I always have. It's more like cherry cough syrup than anything.

... I would like to smell real heliotrope flowers. I tried to get hold of a couple of heliotrope plants for my balcony, without success. Nobody knows this plant over here .

I have to admit, I never knew what heliotrope was until I joined Basenotes. I still wouldn't recognize a heliotrope flower if I stared straight at it.

Stephen Arctander, who wrote Perfume and Flavor Materials of Natural Origin places heliotrope in the balsamic-floral category with hyancith, lilac, osmanthus, and Peru balsam.

I unsuccessfully tried to find heliotrope absolute. But then, it probably wouldn't smell like live heliotrope anyway. As evidence, I present to you:

Flowers That Don't Smell Like Flowers

Tuberose, absolute, India, CO2 extraction- Already discussed, this deep orangey-red substance packs a real punch. Mine is strong smelling, only a bit sweet (dispite reports to the contrary) very vegetal, and smells like rotten flowers and a bit of rubber. This is supposed to be real, but where is the piercing sweetness I was mislead to believe was a characteristic of tuberose?

Champaca, absolute, India - What a surprise. I thought I would get something sweet, like mint and bubblegum, very much like Nag Champa incense. In fact, I once bought a beautiful Champaca perfume from the head shop (and liked it so much I even gave bottles of it away as gifts). It was gorgeous, with a heady aroma like a bag of fresh pot (and no, I don't smoke, but I still like the smell of a fresh bag of dried marijuana). I was convinced that this Champaca perfume was real.

I'm here to say, no, it probably wasn't natural, nor was any of the Nag Champa incense in the store. This Champaca absolute that I have smells like.... Hay. It is gentle, only slightly sweet, grasslike and warm, like a pile of hay drying in the sun. Admittedly, I haven't smelled my hay absolute yet, but this champaca smells like real hay more than anything I know. It does not smell like a flower. Again, why doesn't this substance smell sweet? Is it the real thing?

Linden Blossom, absolute, France - Everything I heard about this note, I had to forget it. Every perfume that smells like linden blossoms, like Tilleul by Diptique, smells more like lime, watermelon, and hyacinth than this natural Linden Blossom absolute sample here.

This stuff is dark, faint smelling, and a bit like tuberose, only not as offensive. It almost doesn't smell at all. The color is dark, orangey brown, similar to tuberose absolute, and extremely viscous. I once got a supposedly genuine Linden Blossom essential oil from Nature's Gift, and it was gorgeous, like the aforementioned Tilleul perfume. I almost bought a boatload of the stuff, but when I logged onto the website, there was a disclaimer from the owner stating that several people with knowledge of chemistry had tried her samples, and they said it wasn't real, so she was looking into the matter. While that was probably a year ago, no further mention was made. I am laughing at the farce going on, this sample was almost white and clear. No way could that sample and my sample both be Linden Blossom absolute. They look nothing alike.

Genet/Broom, absolute, Italy - Muddy greyish-brown, opaque, very thick, cannot pour it without adding alcohol to dissolve it. Another weird aroma, like tuberose, smells nothing like one would expect a flower to smell. First a limelike topnote, then a haylike smell, slightly sour tobacco, followed a strong aroma of dried leaves. Very dense, heady, but not floral in any traditional sense. Strange, strange, strange.

Okay, so I am completely flummoxed now.
How are these substances useful in perfumery?
I would have to dump them into a sweet base of amber, sandalwood, or musk. And then, what would happen. I don't know, but I will find out as soon as I get through the rest of these samples.

The best-smelling of the Strange Florals was:
Geranium Bourbon, esential oil, Reunion Island - Smells like a cross between lemon, rose, and mint (not peppermint or spearmint, but something wild and herbal). I never thought that Geranium smelled like a flower. I believe the essential oil comes from the leaves. Anyway, this one I could see wearing in a fragrance. It is fresh and herbal, lemony, green, and nice. I'm going to move it over with the lemongrass and lavendar in the herbal/fresh category instead of this group.

The story of Strange Florals to be continued...

[caribou55313]

Strangely, I do smell cherry in almond extract. I always have. It's more like cherry cough syrup than anything.

Cherry pies have almond extract added, so we probably form an association between the two as well.

Tuberose, absolute, India, CO2 extraction- Already discussed, this deep orangey-red substance packs a real punch. Mine is strong smelling, only a bit sweet (dispite reports to the contrary) very vegetal, and smells like rotten flowers and a bit of rubber. This is supposed to be real, but where is the piercing sweetness I was mislead to believe was a characteristic of tuberose?

Champaca, absolute, India - What a surprise. I thought I would get something sweet, like mint and bubblegum, very much like Nag Champa incense. In fact, I once bought a beautiful Champaca perfume from the head shop (and liked it so much I even gave bottles of it away as gifts). It was gorgeous, with a heady aroma like a bag of fresh pot (and no, I don't smoke, but I still like the smell of a fresh bag of dried marijuana). I was convinced that this Champaca perfume was real.

I'm here to say, no, it probably wasn't natural, nor was any of the Nag Champa incense in the store. This Champaca absolute that I have smells like.... Hay. It is gentle, only slightly sweet, grasslike and warm, like a pile of hay drying in the sun. Admittedly, I haven't smelled my hay absolute yet, but this champaca smells like real hay more than anything I know. It does not smell like a flower. Again, why doesn't this substance smell sweet? Is it the real thing?

Linden Blossom, absolute, France - Everything I heard about this note, I had to forget it. Every perfume that smells like linden blossoms, like Tilleul by Diptique, smells more like lime, watermelon, and hyacinth than this natural Linden Blossom absolute sample here.

This stuff is dark, faint smelling, and a bit like tuberose, only not as offensive. It almost doesn't smell at all. The color is dark, orangey brown, similar to tuberose absolute, and extremely viscous. I once got a supposedly genuine Linden Blossom essential oil from Nature's Gift, and it was gorgeous, like the aforementioned Tilleul perfume. I almost bought a boatload of the stuff, but when I logged onto the website, there was a disclaimer from the owner stating that several people with knowledge of chemistry had tried her samples, and they said it wasn't real, so she was looking into the matter. While that was probably a year ago, no further mention was made. I am laughing at the farce going on, this sample was almost white and clear. No way could that sample and my sample both be Linden Blossom absolute. They look nothing alike.

Genet/Broom, absolute, Italy - Muddy greyish-brown, opaque, very thick, cannot pour it without adding alcohol to dissolve it. Another weird aroma, like tuberose, smells nothing like one would expect a flower to smell. First a limelike topnote, then a haylike smell, slightly sour tobacco, followed a strong aroma of dried leaves. Very dense, heady, but not floral in any traditional sense. Strange, strange, strange.

Okay, so I am completely flummoxed now.
How are these substances useful in perfumery?

The floral absolutes you mention will smell more floral in dilution to 10% or less; in some cases a 1% dilution will give you a truer reading of their role in perfumery. Some of them might be used in a perfume formula at a level of 1% or less in the fragrance concentrate (i.e., before alcohol is added). Even at such a low level they add 'naturalness' to a formula that is 80% or more synthetic.

The champaca absolutes I have don't smell like hay to me; more of a pungent oily white flower scent. They really juice and jazz up other white florals and make them sing. They don't smell exactly like Nag Champa incense, although you can kind of pick out the champa thread in the incense.

The linden blossom absolute from NG that you liked was probably a fragrance oil - my understanding is that she sold this at the time in good faith but later found out that it was not at all characteristic of linden blossom abs. The viscosity of your other sample is typical of LB but I'm not sure why you don't smell much from it. Try diluting it to 5% or so, maybe? I have a sample of it from Eden Botanicals that I've diluted to 10% - it's extremely dark green, nearly black, with a delicate but distinctly floral scent with a hint of greenness to it.

[Lady_in_Black]

Interesting insights, caribou - thank you and welcome to the project

Continuing my slow progress in the floral category, although I'm having difficulties in placing the next note in the floral family.

Helichrysum (Immortelle) - natural - 2% concentration in carrier oil.
Unlike the "smell image" of immortelle I had filed in my head after sniffing scents which reviewers described as having an identifiable immortelle note (=herbal maple syrup), this dilution smells slightly acidic and unpleasant upon application. With time, it loses much of the disturbing sour note and warmer, partly lemon tea-like and partly dough-like facets with a background of dried stalks make themselves known. Before disappearing completely (the dilution is very light) it takes on skin-like tones, conjuring up an image of a sunset in late summer. I also had a distinct impression of "luke-warm".
My weird nose...

[purplebird7]

[B]Unlike the "smell image" of immortelle I had filed in my head after sniffing scents which reviewers described as having an identifiable immortelle note (=herbal maple syrup)...

You gave a nice description, though, LIB.
I expected the "maple syrup" note too. I was one of the testers for Ayala Moriel's Imortalle l'Amour perfume, and it was positively dripping with maple aroma.

I'm glad I'm not the only one getting surprised by these samples. It makes me suspect that these natural absolutes are always shored up by other substances to bring out the desired characteristics. By themselves, they would be quite a challenge to work with.
You know what other natural substance smells like maple? Fenugreek. It's that white powdery spice used in Indian cuisine. I don't care for it because it is bitter in taste, but it's got that maple smell.

Of course, it would be much easier to find a synthetic that smells like maple and use that instead. LOL.

The floral absolutes you mention will smell more floral in dilution to 10% or less; in some cases a 1% dilution will give you a truer reading of their role in perfumery.The champaca absolutes I have don't smell like hay to me; more of a pungent oily white flower scent....

Okay, I tried again with a greater dilution. (Can't say how much, exactly, because my samples were too small to use a dropper, but I'm estimating that the original dilution was 5 to 10% for all of my samples. This time it's below 5%.

Hmmm. Still the "floralness" of the champaca eludes me. It has a strong characteristics of "dried organic matter" wherein the sweetness is accompanied by the woody smell of drying leaves and petals.
Yes, this champaca is pungent. It is pleasant, too.
The fact that I think it smells like hay instead of flowers is probably just a matter of perception. You would probably smell the florals because you have greater experience with these substances. I, however, am expecting it to smell like a fresh flower. I assume the fresh flower would smell far different. Is that correct?

The viscosity of your other sample is typical of LB but I'm not sure why you don't smell much from it. Try diluting it to 5% or so, maybe? I have a sample of it from Eden Botanicals that I've diluted to 10% - it's extremely dark green, nearly black, with a delicate but distinctly floral scent with a hint of greenness to it.

I try to enjoy this linden blossom absolute, but I don't.
Mine is very dark and greenish brown, too, but it changes to an orange hue when diluted.
Caribou, stick with this project if you want to be put on the list to try the complete set of samples at the end. Then you can smell the very same ones I am smelling.


I

[caribou55313]

Hmmm. Still the "floralness" of the champaca eludes me. It has a strong characteristics of "dried organic matter" wherein the sweetness is accompanied by the woody smell of drying leaves and petals.
Yes, this champaca is pungent. It is pleasant, too.
The fact that I think it smells like hay instead of flowers is probably just a matter of perception. You would probably smell the florals because you have greater experience with these substances. I, however, am expecting it to smell like a fresh flower. I assume the fresh flower would smell far different. Is that correct?

I wish I knew! haven't had the pleasure. But I haven't found a floral absolute yet that smells just like its fresh flower. Solvent extraction doesn't capture all the same molecules that you can smell from the flowers themselves, although you can learn to recognize the portion represented in the absolute. Some are easy to love (rose, jasmine, orange blossom) while the charms of others are more ... obscure. I found champaca absolute and concrete a little weird at first, but then played with them in jasmine-based perfumes and grew to love them.

I try to enjoy this linden blossom absolute, but I don't.
Mine is very dark and greenish brown, too, but it changes to an orange hue when diluted.
Caribou, stick with this project if you want to be put on the list to try the complete set of samples at the end. Then you can smell the very same ones I am smelling.
I

that would be interesting, thank you! It certainly sounds hard to love ... these naturals can vary so much from batch to batch, and year to year, maybe that accounts for it?

Did you get a mimosa absolute? For sure my bottle and samples aren't of the best quality, but I find it kind of muddy-smelling; indistinct and vegetal.

[purplebird7]

No, I didn't get magnolia. Neither did anyone else here, to my knowledge. Magnolia trees are my favorite--covered with pink, powderpuff flowers--they look Art Deco.

Here is where we stand with the Remaining Florals:

Redneck- chamomile (German Blue and Roman), ylang-ylang, tuberose, rose (Bulgarian and Moroccan), neroli, geranium, helichrysum (Imortelle), linden blossom, lotus
Also, I have pm'd you re: Everclear

jillsy - chamomile, geranium, rose geranium, violet, cherry blossom. (I hope you did well on your tests.)

LIB - lily (Lyral, Lilial, hydroxy-citronellal), hedione, ionone alpha, linalool. ( I am anxious to hear how the lily notes smell, in particular. Plus hedione, which is a chemical that has made so many perfumes famous.)

tamora - geranium, frangipani, linden blossom. (Was your linden blossom natural? Was it as disappointing as mine?)

whispering leaves - lily (you have the same ones LIB has), and whatever else is in the PerfumersApprentice kit. (Are you back home yet?)

asha - join us whenever you get settled in.

Caribou - Chime in whenever you feel like it.

Here's the tentative lineup for the next group:
Spices We Love
Black Pepper (also pink, white)
Allspice
Anise
Cardamom
Cinnamon
Clove
Fennel
Galangal
Ginger
Iso-Butavan

Cocoa or Chocolate (just because it goes well here)
Coffee (ditto)

If you don't mind, I'll save the mints and herbs for the wood section, because they are good crossover into the aromatic and camphoraceous substances.

[Asha]

Thanks purplebird! I am keeping up with the reading, at any rate

[purplebird7]

And now, for your entertainment pleasure, presenting:
The Note Identification Palette of Purplebird7
Cheap, made of scrap lumber with holes drilled for vials and droppers (straws, when I ran out of droppers). All nestled on top of a French newspaper which my daugther brought back from Europe recently. (Yeah, and that's all I got, too. A used newspaper.)
Naturals in the back rows, synthetics in the front.

[purplebird7]

Please feel free to catch up with the remaining floral notes.
Meanwhile, I shall proceed with:
Spices We Love
This is a powerful group of notes. I had to dilute mine twice. The first time, I put too much essential oil in the alcohol, and the aroma was overwhelming. Not much is needed in perfumery. A light touch is important.
Here is what I have in the way of samples:

Fennel, Egypt – Strong anise-licorice aroma is bitter at high concentrations, but pleasantly dry and woody at low concentrations.

Galangal, Indonesia – Strange spice used in Indian and Thai cuisine. Galangal comes from a root. The aroma is pungent, similar to mint-anise-cardamom, but also earthy and bittersweet.

Cardamom, India – Sweet, candylike aroma, pungent, with green-floral-fruity undertones. The spice comes from seeds and pods. Green cardamom is one of my favorite spice aromas and flavors.

Cinnamon Leaves, unknown origin – Sweet, hot, a bit woody and bitter. This sample comes from the leaf of the plant, not the bark which we are accustomed to using for flavoring. The reason I tried the leaf oil is because the bark has high potential for sensitization. Saigon cinnamon is one of my favorite spice aromas and flavors--this leaf cinnamon is not as pleasant.

Clove Bud, unknown origin – Sweet, smooth, cool, deep. Again, I tried the essential oil from the bud instead of the stem because of sensitization potential. This is another of my favorite spice aromas and flavors.

So, how about you? What's cookin'?

[Lady_in_Black]

Purplebird, I am impressed by the organisation I see on your picture! My small bottles of dilutions from TPA and the vials of EOs I diluted myself all reside in the cardboard box which came from TPA, so they don't take up much space and can be easily transported from one place to the other. Not picture-worthy, I'd say!

Spices aren't cooking here yet, since I still have to catch up on my floral notes.

The next ones are 2% dilutions in carrier oil:

Hydroxycitronellal: soft and delicate lily of the valley, but somewhat flat. To my nose, it lacks a "bright" side. My immediate impression was that I smell this note, or a similar one, in 90% of floral perfumes. This is the classic LotV note, the synth Roudnitska used in Diorissimo.

Lilial: on my skin, the longer lasting of the three. It is somewhat waxy and conveys a "memory" of LotV, like the traces you smell in a room where someone wearing a LotV scent has been. I could easily take it for the scent of lilac instead.

Lyral: slightly less LotV and more spicy/green lily than the other two, as if the floral note were dusted with white pepper.

Linalool: aha, this is an interesting, widely used note. Floral? Not to my nose. Initially, it smells like anise or artemisia and a tiny bit lemony. The impression is bitter-sweet. This note is joined by green shoots, and in this phase I am able to associate the scent with a green floral note - the smell of tulips comes to my mind. Eventually, the anise note takes on woody undertones. It is rather tenacious.

More on my remaining floral notes to come!

[Lady_in_Black]

Now to my last two floral notes:

Hedione, 2% dilution in carrier oil: wow - this is Eau Sauvage alright! I can see why this synth is so popular - it is a very fine note of citrusy jasmine with a tender caress of a milky sandalwood-like background. It is really very, very pleasant.

Ionone alpha, 2% dilution in carrier oil: a powdery, dark, sweet, earthy blossom which smells like violets without those candied notes that I loathe. I believe I can smell also a myrrh-like note in there. Hands down, one of my favourite synthetic molecules in my kit.

[Asha]

I think linalool is from thyme, isn't it? At any rate, I thought it was a more herbal aroma chemical....

[Ayala]

I think linalool is from thyme, isn't it? At any rate, I thought it was a more herbal aroma chemical....

Linalool is present in several herbs but is at its highest concentrations in rosewood, ho-wood and ho leaf.

[Lady_in_Black]

Asha, I read that lilanool in its natural form was first extracted from rosewood, which is a rich source. Anyway, linalool can be found in many species of plants, ranging from herbs to citrus fruit. Having never smelled linalool before, I initially placed it in the floral category because its scent was described as being floral/spicy. Only by analysing its smell I became aware that it hasn't a floral scent to me

Edited: oops, I just saw the post before mine. Welcome, Miss Ayala!