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  1. #1

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    Default Your opinions of Grey Flannel please...

    I was sniffing around a perfume shop today when I came across some Grey Flannel by Geoffrey Beene: 4.0 oz bottle packaged in a mini grey flannel drawstring bag. It really does smell like a new flannel shirt IMO. I had a girlfriend in the 80's who went bonkers for this stuff.

    Has it held up well throughout the years and does anyone like it?
    Last edited by samplermike; 16th July 2008 at 12:23 AM.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Your opinions of Grey Flannel please...

    I think it has held up fantastically and I still wear it. It is definitely a classic.

    You can usually find the 4oz bottle at TJ Maxx/Marshalls for ~ $12.99.
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  3. #3

    Default Re: Your opinions of Grey Flannel please...

    I'm going to be contrary and say that I didn't like Grey Flannel when it was new and I like it even less now. It's just...too...sweet.

    I dislike Versace Dreamer for the same reason. I find them both cloying to the point of being irritating.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Your opinions of Grey Flannel please...

    It holds up quite well, if you like violets and galdbanum, that is. I like galdbanum, I'm not crazy about violets, but Grey Flannel was and is an original. Mike, I think it is much in alignment with your beloved GIT.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Your opinions of Grey Flannel please...

    Sorry, I was remembering Lagerfeld Photo.
    Grey flannel is a good fresh synthetic woodsy floral.
    Last edited by DULLAH; 16th July 2008 at 01:31 AM. Reason: Mistaken olfactory memory.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Your opinions of Grey Flannel please...

    Works great in fall/ winter. I use the Grey Flannel with just a bit of Givenchy Gentlemen and has a blockbuster effect. Typically in suit and tie setting. These are the only two colognes that I have gotten compliments with either on their own or together.

    Been my staple for about 10 years now and it it has tremendous staying power. Just need a little.

  7. #7
    Hoos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Your opinions of Grey Flannel please...

    I think it's held up nicely. So much so that I bought a 4 oz. bottle yesterday!

    It's one of those scents, though, that on me will be lightly applied and infrequent. I like it but could tire of it easily.
    Brent

    Catherine Deneuve: "You should put scent where you like to be kissed."


  8. #8

    Default Re: Your opinions of Grey Flannel please...

    I just purchased this at TjMaxx for $7. This is my second blind buy and like my first one, it didn't turn out well. You would think I would learn. It isn't bad but not something I would wear again.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Your opinions of Grey Flannel please...

    Good for the price but it's sooooo green smelling (must be the violet) that it can be jarring to some people at first (yes, me). Still, it's a "must have tried it at one point in time classic". After a while I warmed up to it.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Your opinions of Grey Flannel please...

    I think it's magic. Nothing else out there like it. SirSlarty is right though, there's that distinctive jarring effect of GF that's like a spike up your nose. Nothing else has it and I really think it's magic. I've got a 4oz bottle too, and purchased it about 5 years ago, but last year my mom sent me an old splash bottle of it I had in high school. They both smell the same! I think its held up very very well.

    Neat thing about it is that it can be perfectly "today cool" when you wear it, but also very "retro cool" at the same time. I love the stuff.

    I can't stand the Eau de Grey Flannel that came out after GF though. Renato seems to be the only one I know who respects it. That stuff is awful. Can't figure it out. The GF straight up, never anything wrong with that.
    --Chris
    That girl, that bottle, that mattress and me.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Your opinions of Grey Flannel please...

    Francesco Smalto is similar, but soooo much better, and you can still get it at reasonable prices. Unless you really like that harsh green opening GF has, I see no reason to get it rather than FS. FS lasts longer too.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Your opinions of Grey Flannel please...

    I like it myself, but since you asked, here is a shocker. There is a thread titled "Worst. Smell. EVER."
    Here's what 5 people in that thread had to say about Grey Flannel:

    Canoe and Grey Flannel make me sick. Literally. These are disgusting, despicable perfumes.

    I second the Geoffrey Beene Grey Flannel. A disgusting old man has been wearing his pyjamas for days, and its full of his old man sweat and secretions. Bleeaaargh.

    Grey Flannel, and my first experience of the original Kouros!

    ... I'm going to vote for Grey Flannel, with British Sterling being a close second. Both are really nasty.

    what other scents DON'T you like? (for me: ...Grey Flannel)

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Your opinions of Grey Flannel please...

    I can appreciate the unusual artistic composition of Grey Flannel. I find the violet note combined with the green very interesting. BUT, I have never been comfortable with it on my body. Something about the floral nature of it is just all wrong for me. I've tried to wear it - but it just doesn't work for me.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Your opinions of Grey Flannel please...

    Don't listen to Bigsly. Nothing outdoes Grey Flannel at what Grey Flannel does best, and that is some yummy green goodness. The transition from opening to the drydown is magical as well.

    For as cheap as it is, as distinct as it is, and as DustB said, as simultaneously modern/retro chic - it's amazing. One of the best values out there. And I don't think it's synthetic at all.

    One or two sprays max. Any more than that and you will regret it and turn yourself off to the frag. It's a powerhouse.

    It and GIT are my two favorite green frags.
    Last edited by SculptureOfSoul; 16th July 2008 at 06:29 AM.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Your opinions of Grey Flannel please...

    As good as ever. It was a groundbreaker when it first appeared, and although one can hardly say that of it any more, it still turns heads and provokes the delightful question, "What is that you're wearing?" on many occasions. Part of my review of this:

    "It was a novel use of green notes in the top to overwhelm the citrus, and the sweet floral notes and almondy, slightly powdery drydown seemed out of character with the rest of the scent. I guess we would now say that Grey Flannel's nose, André Fromentin, was a visionary. A leap of the olfactory imagination, for sure."

    Last edited by JaimeB; 16th July 2008 at 06:04 AM.
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  16. #16

    Default Re: Your opinions of Grey Flannel please...

    I still have my bottle of it although I wear it with much lesser frequency now than I did before.


    PVC and Leather. A Chain and a feather




  17. #17
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    Default Re: Your opinions of Grey Flannel please...

    Java, I want you to get those GF wearings up. Obey!
    That girl, that bottle, that mattress and me.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Your opinions of Grey Flannel please...

    Quote Originally Posted by DustB View Post
    Java, I want you to get those GF wearings up. Obey!
    And I shall obey thee

    But seriously, my girl doesn't like it on me.. I guess i'll have to go light on the application, like 1 spray max maybe.


    PVC and Leather. A Chain and a feather




  19. #19

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    Cool Re: Your opinions of Grey Flannel please...

    Well----
    It's okay, but that's about it for me.
    Perhaps it's just too retro prom night 70's--I dunno.

    Want violets? Try Joseph Abboud.

    In fact, I'd be interested if any of you who have tried both would rate GF higher . . .

    Cheers,

    Mario
    Last edited by Mario Justiniani; 16th July 2008 at 07:04 AM.
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  20. #20

    Default Re: Your opinions of Grey Flannel please...

    If you get over the initial shock effect, you'll grow to like it.

  21. #21

    Default Re: Your opinions of Grey Flannel please...

    I've not worn mine for, ooh, at least a couple of months, so I decided to get my bottle out and have a spritz. What a lovely fresh fragrance it is. My right arm (which I sprayed it on) smells great now. Really bright and refined fragrance.

    I think I'll wear it tonight. Unless I wear Black Orchid of course, it depends on my mood after I shower later...
    In a world where people smell bad, it is the personal responsibility of every Basenoter to improve the world one SotD at a time...

  22. #22

    Default Re: Your opinions of Grey Flannel please...

    I wish I could find it somewhere local - I just love it! It's green and bright and fresh and it lasts forever! What's more, it dries down to a fantastic clean smell which lingers on! I love it!

    $12.99 for 4 oz? WOW that is a bargain.
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  23. #23
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    Default Re: Your opinions of Grey Flannel please...

    It may go well with a leather jacket. Other than for that, I don't like it very much.
    Renato

  24. #24

    Default Re: Your opinions of Grey Flannel please...

    Quote Originally Posted by samplermike View Post
    in the 80's who went bonkers for this stuff.
    "Grey Flannel". Even the name is drab.

  25. #25
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    Thumbs up Re: Your opinions of Grey Flannel please...

    Buy it, wear it and you never smell like the crowd !

  26. #26

    Default Re: Your opinions of Grey Flannel please...

    Honestly I wore this as a kid and can't remember what it smells like from 20-25 years ago. I see it cheap at Marshalls all the time though.
    "As you walk down the fairway of life you must smell the roses, for you only get to play one round."
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  27. #27
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    Default Re: Your opinions of Grey Flannel please...

    Does anyone else see the similarity between Grey Flannel and Narcisso Rodriguez for Him? Other than the grey bottle and grey in the name of GF they both have that dry violet leading into musk note. NRfH does not have the strong green opening notes and less of a floral note, but it is an updated and more minimal version of Grey Flannel, I think. Anyone else?

  28. #28

    Default Re: Your opinions of Grey Flannel please...

    i find GF much better and bearable than Coolwater. i think of it as an Eccentric scent..i want to hate it, but something about is very nice in a very weird way.....not bad, I can imagine it must be a rage back then...quality stuff, just not for me...anything with violets treated the way in CW repels me...

  29. #29

    Default Re: Your opinions of Grey Flannel please...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigsly View Post
    Francesco Smalto is similar, but soooo much better, and you can still get it at reasonable prices.
    What could Francesco Smalto and Grey Flannel have in common?

  30. #30

    Default Re: Your opinions of Grey Flannel please...

    Quote Originally Posted by Advocate View Post
    What could Francesco Smalto and Grey Flannel have in common?
    actually i dont see anything in common...both scents have a very diff approach

  31. #31

    Default Re: Your opinions of Grey Flannel please...

    Quote Originally Posted by Advocate View Post
    What could Francesco Smalto and Grey Flannel have in common?
    Maybe the theme.. both are mossy to my nose to some extent.


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  32. #32

    Default Re: Your opinions of Grey Flannel please...

    I like Grey Flannel. The opening is mossy - a member at Shave My Face called it "suffocating" - but the drydown is a lovely green violet with a touch of sandalwood. It may not be wearable for everyone, but it is hardly "drab" and certainly a great value. Like many other important scents, not everyone likes it, but it's worth being familiar with.

  33. #33
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    Default Re: Your opinions of Grey Flannel please...

    It was one of the first fragrances I owned. I've always enjoy it and still have it in my wardrobe.

  34. #34

    Default Re: Your opinions of Grey Flannel please...

    "actually i dont see anything in common...both scents have a very diff approach"

    Yes, that is why I prefer FS by a wide margin!

    ;-)

    Seriously, if you mostly wear these kinds of frags, there will be a huge difference. On the other hand, if you are like me, and prefer gourmand, spicy, and sweet frags, and only want something like FS once a month, you might find GF way too strong and sharp (as I do). I'll also mention that another frag in this category (call it "mossy") is John Sterling, which is very underrated and now discontinued.
    Last edited by Bigsly; 16th July 2008 at 10:40 PM. Reason: error correction

  35. #35
    Dependent

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    Default Re: Your opinions of Grey Flannel please...

    Very affordable but it stops there, its is one of my least favorite of the classics if it considered to be. This along with old spice didnt make it into my collection tho i generally have a liking for classics and have a couple in my collection. Then again for that price, its a decent job. If the bottle looks good i would definitely have bought it long ago. Oh well, thats just my take. The scent isn't impressive enough for me to form any significant impression.

  36. #36

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    Default Re: Your opinions of Grey Flannel please...

    I hate it. It smells artificial and synthetic. It is disgusting. I gave my bottle for free after a blind buy.

  37. #37

    Default Re: Your opinions of Grey Flannel please...

    Quote Originally Posted by javagreen View Post
    Maybe the theme.. both are mossy to my nose to some extent.
    That is an astute observation. I believe that oakmoss plays a prominent note in both fragrances. However, oakmoss is commonly featured in men's fragrances. I do not think that they are any more similar than any two randomly selected men's fragrances.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigsly View Post
    Yes, that is why I prefer FS by a wide margin!
    So do you believe that Grey Flannel and Francesco Smalto are similar or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by LuciusVorenus View Post
    It smells artificial and synthetic.
    It is perfectly okay not to like Grey Flannel. It is a difficult fragrance to get close to, because a violet note is not commonly seen in men's fragrances any more.

    However, a person's nose cannot determine whether a molecule is the result of a laboratory process. Marketing to the contrary (or, as I like to call it, "lies"), almost everything on the market is "artificial and synthetic." Moreover, "artificial and synthetic" materials have been a part of the art of perfumery for over a century, since Guerlain's magnificent Jicky, so "artificial and synthetic" is not necessarily a bad thing. It might be more precise (and more enlightening to the readers) to describe what is disappointing about Grey Flannel.

  38. #38

    Default Re: Your opinions of Grey Flannel please...

    I guess I need to clarify my position further. They are clearly not "clones." They both have strong "mossy" qualities, but GF is much harsher from top to base notes. FS softens up over time considerably. Some prefer that harshness and some dislike it. This is actually a major element in an idea I have about frags. That is, I have come to enjoy smooth, subtle frags, while others obviously enjoy an olfactory jolt of sorts. When I get a little bored with sweet, spicy, or aromatic smooth frags, I consider reaching for FS as a change of pace. John Sterling is also present, so at some point I might consider getting rid of one, but at this point there's no rush (I do have a second bottle of FS, so that is why it's on my swap page).

  39. #39
    DustB's Avatar
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    Default Re: Your opinions of Grey Flannel please...

    Francesco Smalto PH and Grey Flannel don't smell alike to me, and don't feel alike in concept either. Sure, might be a moss link, but that's beyond my knowledge or caring. They don't seem in any way rivals any more than some one saying Oh, down with Guerlain's Vetiver--I like Voleur de Roses so much better!

    Not alike methinks.
    That girl, that bottle, that mattress and me.

  40. #40

    Default Re: Your opinions of Grey Flannel please...

    I loathe it. I would go scent free before ever wearing GF.

  41. #41

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    Default Re: Your opinions of Grey Flannel please...

    A friend gave me a bottle about a year ago. I ended up throwing it in the trash.
    I have read in Plato and Cicero sayings that are wise and very beautiful; but I have never read in either of them: Come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy laden.'' --Saint Augustine

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  42. #42

    Default Re: Your opinions of Grey Flannel please...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigsly View Post
    I guess I need to clarify my position further. They are clearly not "clones." They both have strong "mossy" qualities, but GF is much harsher from top to base notes. FS softens up over time considerably. Some prefer that harshness and some dislike it. This is actually a major element in an idea I have about frags. That is, I have come to enjoy smooth, subtle frags, while others obviously enjoy an olfactory jolt of sorts. When I get a little bored with sweet, spicy, or aromatic smooth frags, I consider reaching for FS as a change of pace. John Sterling is also present, so at some point I might consider getting rid of one, but at this point there's no rush (I do have a second bottle of FS, so that is why it's on my swap page).
    I think this is a case where you are having problems with the topnotes tainting your impression of the rest of the frag (as you've said this happens to you quite often) because Grey Flannel becomes extremely smooth and almost a velvety powdery oakmoss with a hint of sandalwood frag in its drydown. The initial harshness fades in < 30 mins and from then on it's an extremely smooth fragrance that is decidedly clean smelling.

  43. #43
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    Default Re: Your opinions of Grey Flannel please...

    Just noticed a few posts regarding synthetics, so here's some relevant info for you:

    Most fragrances (no matter the house or perfumer) contain over 200 ingredients, most of which are synthetic. As well, what often smells synthetic may actually be something natural, and vice versa. Many synthetics smell far better and more natural than the real thing.

    _
    Last edited by pluran; 18th July 2008 at 07:59 AM.

  44. #44

    Default Re: Your opinions of Grey Flannel please...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigsly View Post
    Some prefer that harshness and some dislike it. This is actually a major element in an idea I have about frags. That is, I have come to enjoy smooth, subtle frags, while others obviously enjoy an olfactory jolt of sorts.
    I do not think that "harshness" and "smoothness" are qualities inherent in the fragrances themselves. They may be a way of saying, "I like this one, I don't like that one."

  45. #45

    Default Re: Your opinions of Grey Flannel please...

    No, I really dislike the GF drydown too, though I dislike sandalwood, so that's probably a major part of the reason. It has a nauseating effect on me, at least in these less expensive frags with a strong sandalwood presence.

    As to "synthetic" smelling, I put the word in quotation marks because I have no idea how much is natural and how much is not, and frankly I don't care, though some might for whatever reason. If it comes across to me as chemicalish (is that a better word?), then I usually don't like the frag, though if it's just the top notes, I can deal with it, if the drydown if worth it, of course.

  46. #46
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    Default Re: Your opinions of Grey Flannel please...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigsly View Post
    No, I really dislike the GF drydown too, though I dislike sandalwood, so that's probably a major part of the reason. It has a nauseating effect on me, at least in these less expensive frags with a strong sandalwood presence.

    As to "synthetic" smelling, I put the word in quotation marks because I have no idea how much is natural and how much is not, and frankly I don't care, though some might for whatever reason. If it comes across to me as chemicalish (is that a better word?), then I usually don't like the frag, though if it's just the top notes, I can deal with it, if the drydown if worth it, of course.
    Everyone put Bigsly down on the list of ones who don't like Grey Flannel.
    That girl, that bottle, that mattress and me.

  47. #47

    Default Re: Your opinions of Grey Flannel please...

    I'm not saying you can't dislike the drydown of Grey Flannel Bigsly, to each their own. I've just never heard anyone describe it as harsh before. And I still think you are mistaking some chemical for sandalwood, because I didn't get any sandalwood whatsoever in Le Roy Soleil, a frag you claimed to dislike because of its heavy sandalwood presence. All I get from that is tobacco and cedar, the tobacco lending the 'rougher' and slightly bitter notes in the drydown (along with some fresh musk chemical that persists from the topnotes well into the drydown.)

    Real sandalwood can be slightly balsamic, but I don't think many would describe it as harsh. It's more smooth, deep, and uplifting in a spiritual sort of way.

  48. #48

    Default Re: Your opinions of Grey Flannel please...

    You are correct about Le Roy. At the time, months ago, I mistook the geranium in it for sandalwood. Then I tried some frags that definitely did have a strong sandalwood presence, and I don't like the drydown for any of them. There is something like a chemicalish fog that occurs, and begins to make me feel ill, but it is certainly not harsh. Looks like any frag with a lot of violet, geranium, or sandalwood I should avoid.
    Last edited by Bigsly; 18th July 2008 at 06:54 PM.

  49. #49
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    Default Re: Your opinions of Grey Flannel please...

    Grey Flannel. Man, it's one that sets the standard for a nose-memory creation for me. I can understand my friends here not liking it, but for me GF is such a distinct smell that once you sniff it you can't forget it. The smell etches itself in the brain. You know what it smells like even when it's not anywhere near your nose. It has such control! Sure, maybe you don't like the smell, that's cool, but the scent etching power this fragrance has is unbelieveable. So many scents out there are simply rendered milkquetoast when compared to it because you can't remember exactly what they smell like when they're not around. Grey Flannel is pure achievement! Pure essence of the power of a great in this hobby we love!

    I guess it's a love it or hate it scent, judging from posts to this thread, and that's cool, but think of the power it has and must be as a perfumer's creation to etch itself so deeply into our likes and dislikes.

    Just a few sniffs at a fragrance counter and you KNOW Grey Flannel.

    So crazy. Such a wonderful experience that perfumery can make. Love it or hate it yes all the way, but holy smokes, that some juice in a bottle can have such mental effects!
    --Chris
    That girl, that bottle, that mattress and me.

  50. #50

    Thumbs up Re: Your opinions of Grey Flannel please...

    I think DustB summed it up very well. This seems to be a very polarizing and powerful frag. Personally, I love the scent, especially the drydown. The opening blast may definitely require some getting used to. Drydown reminds me of Fahrenheit, but GF is less sweet.
    Last edited by calculus; 18th July 2008 at 07:37 PM.

  51. #51

    Default Re: Your opinions of Grey Flannel please...

    Actually, when I first sampled GF, I liked the top notes, but the drydown was not pleasant for me. Then, as I've said before, I think I developed some sort of chemical sensitivity problem, and now I don't like GF at all, because of the effects it produces. On the other hand, I've never liked lavender, but I can wear Lomani, since it's well blended, relatively speaking. I don't find it particularly pleasant, compared to other frags that I really enjoy wearing, but it doesn't generate anything like nausea. I did a quick google search and found a really interesting article, at:

    http://tinyurl.com/5tdksj

    Here is a short passage from it:

    ….MCS [Multiple Chemical Sensitivity] may, in short, be an adaptation to a lousy environment by developing the skills to avoid such environmental exposure. Those with MCS may, in fact, be the most normal people in the world. One could even suggest they are advanced compared to the rest of us, with a heightened sense able to detect and minimize risk for survival.
    Last edited by Bigsly; 18th July 2008 at 07:41 PM.

  52. #52
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    Default Re: Your opinions of Grey Flannel please...

    Bigsly, we get it that you don't like the stuff and have had a history of it. We've caught on and have read already that it makes you ill in some way. We get it. Message received. You're quite fixated on telling us those things, and maybe the problem is that they're off topic--not the focus of this thread. The original poster asked for opinions on Grey Flannel. I've tried to get that back to the focus. You are repeating your interest in talking about your experience that isn't--IS NOT--thoughts on Grey Flannel. Maybe that's why members are still talking about Grey Flannel and not turning over the thread's attention to your sickness from the fragrance.

    You've made your experience apparent on this thread several times and anyone interested can re-read your posts. Further pursuit of those elements are not the topic of the orginal post.

    Thank you for your attention in this matter.

    Any questions? Please PM me, gentlemen. I don't want this problem to become a new tangent on this thread. Thank you.
    --Chris
    That girl, that bottle, that mattress and me.

  53. #53

    Default Re: Your opinions of Grey Flannel please...

    I have to agree with you DustB about the way GF can etch itself into one's brain. Out of all the scents I own, it is the one I can most clearly smell just by imagining it. I've never really thought about it that way before.. it really is amazing.

  54. #54

    Default Re: Your opinions of Grey Flannel please...

    I tried it today for the first (and last) time .
    Last edited by knightowl; 22nd July 2008 at 06:02 AM.

  55. #55

    Default Re: Your opinions of Grey Flannel please...

    Knightowl, I said the same thing the first time I wore it. Give it a few months and sample again, and be sure to apply (very) sparingly. I do one shot to the chest and one shot to a cotton ball which I then use to dab it on both arms. Anything more and it'll turn on me.

  56. #56

    Default Re: Your opinions of Grey Flannel please...

    Also, I've got to agree with Ruggles assesment of it sharing some qualities of GIT. I wouldn't say they smell all that similar, but they are definitely in the same family. I love them both.

  57. #57
    DustB's Avatar
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    Default Re: Your opinions of Grey Flannel please...

    Quote Originally Posted by knightowl View Post
    I tried it today for the first (and last) time .
    Like Grape Nuts cereal, the question isn't if Grey Flannel is right for you, but if you are right for Grey Flannel my dear sir.
    That girl, that bottle, that mattress and me.

  58. #58

    Default Re: Your opinions of Grey Flannel please...

    Quote Originally Posted by SculptureOfSoul View Post
    Knightowl, I said the same thing the first time I wore it. Give it a few months and sample again, and be sure to apply (very) sparingly. I do one shot to the chest and one shot to a cotton ball which I then use to dab it on both arms. Anything more and it'll turn on me.
    SculptureofSoul, you're right...i'll try it again in a few months. Who knows?

  59. #59

    Default Re: Your opinions of Grey Flannel please...

    Quote Originally Posted by DustB View Post
    Like Grape Nuts cereal, the question isn't if Grey Flannel is right for you, but if you are right for Grey Flannel my dear sir.
    I love Grape Nuts! But only after soaking in milk for a while .

  60. #60

    Default Re: Your opinions of Grey Flannel please...

    I went back to my GF sample and tried a small amount to the arm. The opening was not as harsh as I remembered it (perhaps due to a smaller amount used), but the drydown was weak, and not interesting or appealing to me. It's hard for me to judge these kinds of frags, because I've found oriental/gourmands to be so much more appealing. I can wear things like Francesco Smalto on rare occasions, but they bore me very quickly; their appeal is minimal at best, though I don't find FS unpleasant in any way (keeping the application reasonable, as I do with all my frags). I usually use them when I know I won't have a lot of time to think about the frag, and so boredom isn't a big factor.
    Last edited by Bigsly; 22nd July 2008 at 07:03 PM.

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