In a perverse way, I’ll miss him too. Though some of his pronouncements were difficult to swallow (to be polite about it) - and he couldn’t see that criticism of Creed was not criticism of himself - at least he was extreme in support of something he loved. It sometimes seemed that a few of his critics/sparring partners were trying to convince others that they shouldn’t enjoy their Creeds or were stupid for buying them (and yes, at times he seemed to be suggesting that people were stupid for not liking Creed). If he had found a company that met all of his fragrance needs and brought him joy, then good for him. I don’t share his enthusiasm, but I’m not going to knock him for it. [understatement alert!] Perhaps the way he presented himself needed some work, though. [end understatement alert.]
On a side note, I hope he was banned for things we didn’t see, since his posts were often no more obnoxious or personal than some of the Creed-bashers. But perhaps that’s none of my business.
Now, who will take up Mike’s mantle and support all that is Creed? Maybe I’ll create a new identity and start posting as “SamplerMac.” Or “SimplerMike.” Be afraid. Be very afraid.
And just to add something to the original post, while I find the marketing to be obnoxious and probably unverifiable (like most marketing), many basenoters love Creed's frags and gladly pay the steep prices for them. While maybe some of them may have bought into the hype, I think it's safe to say that most are intelligent enough to choose based on their nose and not a marketing campaign.
I'm no Creed fanatic, so I can't take the place of Mike, but I have to disagree with those who jump on the hate bandwagon. I see how many people call out house fanatics for jumping on a bandwagon of doing nothing but talking about that house and only reccomending that house, but there's another side of the coin where many people jump on the hate bandwagon and do nothing but insult and demean the house. Both are equally guilty so stop thinking you are holier than thou to those that praise the house
Creed is a niche house just like the other's, it is certainly of greater quality than any designer house I have come across, and their prices are well within the range of other quality houses; Bond No. 9 and Montale come to mind, so why bash it?
Maybe there are some people and even some members here who refuse to have any interest in the house. Maybe they're turned off by the advertising--it won't be the first time a company's advertising has turned off consumers. Maybe they're turned off by claims and reputations made by sales associates--again, it won't be the first time that's happened. Maybe they're turned off because the new ones displease their noses, or the old ones, or because the box and bottle don't fit their aesthetic. It won't be the first time people have made likes and dislikes on such information. If there are people who dismiss the products of the house let 'em. Who cares? So what? Some people just don't like any smells by any one manufacturer some times. Well, fine. I don't have X brand or Y brand in my collection so I guess one could say that I don't like their stuff. Not my thing. Good thing there are other makers out there that please me.
Learning why people dislike Creed, say, is part of the discussion, if they're willing and able to seriously explain their thought. If they are, then you'll know why that person has the dislike you don't share. If they don't explain, well who cares and let them have their misery.
Of course I'm not really talking to you, SomeonesMind, I'm using your post to talk about discussion of the product on the forums. If you've stuck with me this long please don't feel singled out.
Where I disagree with you in some measure though, is that the forum doesn't divide into the Creed-haters and the Creed-lovers. Many people cycle through this site and read and reflect on the content of these posts. They have complex thoughts about this house just as they have complex thoughts on anything else. Because they don't like the advertising doesn't mean they're in the Creed-hater pail. Because they think--rightly or wrongly--the products cost too much doesn't mean they are lumped in to the Creed-hater group.
These two divisions, Creed-haters and Creed-lovers or any other terms used for them are false. What we have among the great majority at Basenotes are people who will discuss the house. This is a discussion board, after all. Members are free to discuss their thoughts on the house and don't need to preface their comments with "I like Creed, but..." "don't get me wrong, I've got some Creeds myself, but..." or any of that other junk. You can come to the forum and give us your thought straight up. Discussion is open, within the rules of course. It's neglect and disrespect of the value of members's toughts to throw them into the Creed-hater or Creed-lover pails. When members do that they're just not seeing that Creed is a house like any other, and a manufacturer of things we might like and might not like. For a variety of reasons each way.
Sorry for all this long wind. No condescention intended at all friends.
Last edited by DustB; 14th August 2008 at 05:40 AM. Reason: I forgot to put in the thing I was quoting.
That girl, that bottle, that mattress and me.
As a budding industry insider, I have been lucky to see the GC/MS formula of Green Irish Tweed and in fact several niche formulas, and I have to say that it is a well built fragrance with very good and thus expensive raw materials. It is a very pricey formula, and I would spend the money to buy another bottle. There is good niche and there is bad niche. But Creed offers quality fragrances - that I can assure you.
Sorry for the hijack but I've got to ask: scentophile, do you have free access to do a GC analysis of a scent? I'd love to see what's inside of L'Antimatiere. (of course, maybe not, that might kill the magic)
While the prices are in line with others, like Bond 9 and Montale, Creed is far more widely available. My local mall stand sells everything from Stetson to Creed, costco.com sells Creed, and every online retailer stocks Creed as well. I realize that the wide availability is not an indictment of the quality of the fragrance, but it does diminish the aura of alleged 'exclusivity' when you can pick it up GIT at a mall in Beaumont, Texas (the small town I live in).
Others I happen to know well: Millesime Imperial (label: metallic citrus; rating: * *), and Silver Mountain Water (label: fresh metallic; rating: *) are on a much lower level in my own books, rather average the first, and smelling cheap the second. Small wonder that guys sometimes suspect being victim of fraud.
Maybe somebody can give me good reasons to mistrust the following labels. Unfortunately, I see none:
Vetiver: 'not vetiver'
Tabarome: 'not tobacco'
Santal Imperial: 'not sandalwood'
I haven't known much about Creed before I stumbled into Basenotes. Are there other websites infected by the same bug? It's just another perfume brand to me and certainly not niche. I respect some of their fragrances, don't like some others, and feel indifferent about the vast majority. Their distribution and marketing policy is a bit misguided. Miscellaneous other aspects I commented on before.
Last edited by narcus; 14th August 2008 at 02:59 PM.
'Il mondo dei profumi č un universo senza limiti: una fraganza puo rievocare sensazioni, luoghi, persone o ancora condurre in uno spazio di nuove dimensioni emozionali' L. V.
I know it is difficult to understand the industry. I sat in your position and I still hold onto some of the questions that you demand. As basenoters, we are different in the sense, we want a little more in terms of the product and also the knowledge. But the industry is not run around us. The industry will not show you the formulas to justify the price.
I speak as a budding student perfumer. I went into the perfumery industry for the art and as someone who held onto my wallet. And I thought in terms of natural and not natural. Expensive and not expensive. I thought niche = expensive formulas and naturals. Boy was a completely wrong.
What people do not know are the constraints on a company and on the perfumer... the price being one thing and regulation being another of many. Something that people have to know is that naturals are REALLY expensive.
To please and to please consistently is one of the hardest things to do. If you are not aware, fashion companies shoot hundreds of fragrances into the market hoping that theirs will hit. Creed, being a company with a small team, has been able to keep giving consumers a consistent line of things more than decent. That is something that I respect.
PS. Sandalwood is very expensive. There is vetiver and good vetiver in OV. Tobacco absolute does not smell like the tobacco you smell in a bar.
I stand that perfumery is still art and maybe the name of the fragrance and the smell does not match. JCE's Bulgari... tea? not really for a tea fanatic, but it's going in the right direction. What's interesting is that there is a fragrance out there that is called Vetiver something something (I can't say what), but there is actually little to no vetiver inside... not even the synthetics used to give vetiver (vertofix, vetveryl acetate, etc.) but the perfumer gave the illusion of vetiver in his own way. Now that is perfumery. And I think some consumers would be pissed off paying so much for a vetiver fragrance without the "real" deal inside.
Royal English Leather (1780) and Vintage Tabarome (1875) are very good, popular fragrances, and I've sometimes wondered how it was possible to make these more than 100 / 200 years earlier. I wish you could tcomment on these a bit, scentophile. There is a review that names 'green tea' as a note in VT. That's possibly based on an error. But it could also be proof that the current VT is in fact a much younger creation. It was Bulgari who 'invented' the green tea note, I thought.
Last edited by narcus; 14th August 2008 at 03:47 PM.
What do you mean? A reviewer can detect a green tea note in a fragrance. Notes, accords, whatever are used to describe a certain association in words. It does not at all give a definite insight in molecules used in the fragrance.There is a review that names 'Green Tea' as a note in VT. That's possibly based on an error, or proof that the current VT is in fact a much younger creation. It was Bulgari who 'invented' the green tea note, I think.
I, personally, seem to think that Olivier Creed invented this company, i don't see anything to prove otherwise...
Last edited by narcus; 15th August 2008 at 02:22 AM.
Creed having been a family-run business for generations would suggest they have a very good company archive. Historical and economic studies have been done on the basis of the Farina archive in Cologne, which has always been open to those with an interest. Of course, they don't have anything to hide.
Olivier Creed's approach to these matters has been characterized by a discretion unusual even in the beauty business. There's the standard Potemkin-narrative which is reproduced in PR features and interviews, but never any hard facts about history, production techniques, volume, ingredients (zztops interview with erwin creed was almost revolutionary in that regard). Even at this point, when it has become de rigeur to brag about the noses that make your perfume, Creed choses the family business image, pretending the master perfumer (&son) does it all by himself. Any other firm would proudly note Bourdon's involvement in GIT, yet we only know about it through Turin. As long as that kind of policy is in place, speculation and doubt and blind belief will abound, but of course "keeping 'em guessing" is in itself quite an effective kind of PR.
@zztop: if Creed was purely a bespoke service, it might not even have had company flacons, after all, until the turn of the century, perfume would be decanted into a personal flacon anyway. That could be an explanation for the absence of physical artefacts. That the name appears in sources only in a fashion context and not ever in reference to perfume, is a more vexing issue. One could however try to access the archives of the Royal household and check whether George III ever comissioned REL. Such papers will certainly have been preserved in Britain, if perhaps not in other now non-monarchies.
And the Oscar goes to Creed for Best Adapted Screenplay based on a flimsy premise.
Some other unanswered questions:
Did Coco Chanel spy for the Nazis?
Was Jicky really a man?
Does Luca Turin have vested interests in Estee Lauder?
Ralph Lauren-Lipshitz; if your lip sh*ts then what does your ass do?
Probably like a lot of BN members, I've gone through this thread to try to see what all the fuss is about. I consider myself to be fairly neutral on the subject of Creed. I own a 1.0oz bottle of Bois du Portugal, which I like very much, and may possibly buy some "Vintage" Tabaróme in the future. None of the other Creed fragrances I've tried excite me much, but I haven't tried all of them yet either. I haven't found Creed to be inordinately more expensive than other niche lines (e.g. Tom Ford Private Collection, By Kilian, etc), so it's a bit mysterious to me why it is such a lightning rod.
The battle reminds me of the sort of verbal jousting that goes on between people who like different sports teams, or who favor different sports cars. It's almost as though certain people feel a need to defend particular brands after they have committed to purchasing them. Obviously this sort of behavior is not likely to be discouraged by companies themselves, which will only encourage people to act as promoters of their products. But what is clear is that if the average consumer could emotionally divorce himself from a product, there would be little need to feel defensive if that brand is attacked. It would also mean that companies would spend more time trying to actually improve the quality of their products, instead of trying to use psychology to build brand loyalty. Statistically significant emotional involvement and lack of objectivity, in the long term, only hurt the consumer.
Last edited by Astaroth; 14th August 2008 at 07:39 PM.
I really don't understand what the big deal is here. I happen to really enjoy Creed. Even though it is slightly expensive, they make a lot of great smelling and unique fragrances. Further, many of their good fragrances are ACCESSIBLE, something not all niche fragrances are. And even though they happen to be expensive, there are pretty decent prices online. Again, I can't really comprehend why people care so much on both sides. If everyone on basenotes hated Creed, I would still wear it and enjoy it because I know exactly how I want to smell, and I get that with Creed fragrances, among others.
Last edited by leor_77; 14th August 2008 at 08:06 PM.
And yes, it is entirely possible to create the illusion of notes without them being there. Magnolia leaf oil dries down to a bitter tea like note, magnolia C02 to a softer 'cleaner' tea note, as does guaiacwood (one of the primary contributors, along with a light pepper, to the tea accord in Bvlgari, if my nose serves me correctly) and others I'm surely forgetting at the moment.
Regarding Creed - I tried to be as open minded as possible when sniffing my first Creed, but to be honest I went into the experience with a bad taste in my mouth due to the endless and meritless rants of some 'Creedheads.' I was prepared to be underwhelmed and write the house off as a strange BN peculiarity, but I really like what I've sniffed (GIT only, but I've got to check the mail my Erolfa, Neroli Sauvage, Millesime Imperial, SMW and Himalaya should be here!)
To the mailbox I go!
Last edited by SculptureOfSoul; 14th August 2008 at 08:51 PM.
I just dabbed a bit on, along with a dab of MPG's Centaure on the other wrist. I wanted to stop there but I just can't resist getting a quick sniff of ALL of these on skin (along with those mentioned, I also got Parfum d'Empire Iskander and Hermes Osmanthe Yunnan.)
Gotta love when a sample pack arrives! So far I'm like the Erolfa much much more than Sandflowers - which actually smells very marine'ish but flat, like the scent of a sweet lagoon with just a hint of kelp.. the smell itself I guess is okay but the whole scent is just so 'flat' it doesn't remind me of a roiling ocean but instead stagnant water. I accidentally ordered 2 vials of Sandflowers, too.. whoops!
why are you so hell bent on singling out this one brand man...it's no longer funny anymore and it doesnt make you look cool. you are taking this discussion to the utmost depth of negativity with no value added whatsoever. your response basically comprises of two notes - Urine and Arse. common man...
Stop the Violence! We're all in the same gang!
I liked the discussion on Rolexes ..
BTW, the end of the world is near...(former) Ellena fanboy Chandler Burr gives Creeds Virgin Island Water 4 stars in his latest column (this following Malle praising Love in Black in Allure Sept '08 issue )..
Last edited by zztopp; 15th August 2008 at 03:41 AM.
<< Olivier Creed has traveled the world  collecting rare coconuts, limes and bottles of rum to compose the bathtub-sized cocktail he drank before he decided to release something this close to Bath & Body Works Coconut Lime Verbena at eleven times the price. - pina colada * * >>
(better known as Tania Sanchez
in: Perfumes The Guide)
: "Virgin Island Water is an exotic blend of Lime from Jamaica, white Bergamot and Mandarin from Sicily with Herbaceous notes, Ylang Ylang and Jasmine from India on a base of Musk from Tonkin,Tropical woods, Coconut and Tiare Flower." - Source: creedfragances.co.uk
Last edited by narcus; 15th August 2008 at 05:49 AM.
I wonder if Burr has reviewed Bath & Body Works Coconut Lime Verbena. It would be interesting to see if that got 4 stars, too.
Whoops. All this civilized Creed talk has to be w-a-a-a-y OT. Choc! Scandale! What will we do?
Content Removed By Moderator Request.
Last edited by T. Rex, Esq.; 15th August 2008 at 06:40 AM.
I'm loving this thread a LOT
PVC and Leather. A Chain and a feather
Thank you all, again,
Last edited by DustB; 15th August 2008 at 06:55 AM.
That girl, that bottle, that mattress and me.
Oh, and also, T.Rex, this doesn't have anything to do with dismissal of members or their thoughts for perceived association with particular manufacturers (TM in superscript here). Anyone can say hey, what's written is offensive, and that usually is enough.
That girl, that bottle, that mattress and me.
luca turin | November 10, 2005, 6:17 : << Tania, if your fists are as fast as your tongue and typing fingers, then the Dragon is definitely back :-) >>
Tania Sanchez | November 10, 2005, 6:50 : << :D When I talk too much in class, my teacher says, "You need to work on kung fu, not tongue fu." >>
(Source: Luca Turin blog)
Last edited by narcus; 15th August 2008 at 06:33 AM.
I misspell many words. I write run-on sentences. I put in too many commas or not enough. I have to look up words. I make plenty of mistakes as I try to communicate. Sometimes I communicate poorly.
Thank you for removing your content above.
I think this thread has run its course. Very likely I'll close it. Sorry for all inconvenience everyone.
PM me if there are things you want me to know or think about regarding my decisions.
That girl, that bottle, that mattress and me.