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  1. #1

    Default Fixatives and the Fleeting Scent

    My favorite notes are the Citruses. I love the smell of orange, lime, lemon, bergamot and other citrus fruits. I think citruses are masculine without having too much testosterone, are clean, bright, sunny, uplifiting, refined but simple, and sensual without being too obvious about it. To me, citruses are pure class.

    But the problem is that citruses are not very long lasting. Even the best citruses fade out after a couple of hours.

    My question is this: would citruses and other fleeting scents benefit from a higher concentration of fixatives in the perfume? Is there a way of improving the stability of these scents, making them last longer? If I understand correctly, the fixatives are usually the most expensive ingredient in a perfume. So maybe the manufacturers don't put as much fixative in the perfume as they should. Would it be possible to increase the longevity of a citrus scent by adding more fixative to it? Or maybe the only solution is to buy pure citrus oil and apply it directly to the skin?

    Have you ever considered these questions? What do you think about it?

    Lucius
    .
    Last edited by LuciusVorenus; 16th August 2008 at 01:28 AM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Fixatives and the Fleeting Scent

    I'm going to post a topic called "Laxatives and the Overwhelming Scent". jk!

  3. #3

    Default Re: Fixatives and the Fleeting Scent

    Lucius, unfortunately, citruses don't last too long . I like the hesperides as well, but its a quality of the note that it fades out rather quickly. Pure citrus oil won't last at all! (I've been there/done that ). Michael Storer once recommended some excellent citrus material, I think it was Hedione. Added to a perfume you make, it gives a long-lasting citrus.
    Some good citrus fragrances that I've experienced : Armani Eau PH, Eau de Rochas PH, West Indian limes by Trumpers (its really good, but doesn't last) and Bigarade Concentree by FM.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Fixatives and the Fleeting Scent

    Fixatives are not expensive. Dipropylene glycol and diethyl phthalate are good fixatives so is Hedione. The thing is that if you use enough fixative to significantly prolong a top note then you also significantly reduce its projection.
    All these moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Fixatives and the Fleeting Scent

    I see what you mean...it is a trade-off.


    Quote Originally Posted by dcampen View Post
    Fixatives are not expensive. Dipropylene glycol and diethyl phthalate are good fixatives so is Hedione. The thing is that if you use enough fixative to significantly prolong a top note then you also significantly reduce its projection.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Fixatives and the Fleeting Scent

    Quote Originally Posted by LuciusVorenus View Post
    Or maybe the only solution is to buy pure citrus oil and apply it directly to the skin? Lucius.
    If you use pure citrus oil or many other pure oils, like vetiver, jasmine, etc. their longevity will be even less than in a EdC, as they have no fixatives in them and have small molecules that evaporate quickly.
    The oils that last are things like patchouli, musk, sandalwood, and oak moss; notes that are traditionally used in fragrance bases.
    Last edited by Kevin Guyer; 19th August 2008 at 06:07 AM.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Fixatives and the Fleeting Scent

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruggles View Post
    If you use pure citrus oil or many other pure oils, like vetiver, jasmine, etc. their longevity will be even less than in a EdC, as they have no fixatives in them and have small molecules that evaporate quickly.
    The oils that last are things like patchouli, musk, sandalwood, and oak moss; notes that are traditionally used in fragrance bases.
    Ruh Khus (Vetiver) will last well over 12 hours. Other oils more (like Ouds) or less (citruses), depending on their type. I haven't tried jasmine yet, but I aim to find out this week

  8. #8

    Default Re: Fixatives and the Fleeting Scent

    I can't wait to try them too!

    Quote Originally Posted by AK3D View Post
    Ruh Khus (Vetiver) will last well over 12 hours. Other oils more (like Ouds) or less (citruses), depending on their type. I haven't tried jasmine yet, but I aim to find out this week

  9. #9

    Default Re: Fixatives and the Fleeting Scent

    Quote Originally Posted by dcampen View Post
    Fixatives are not expensive. Dipropylene glycol and diethyl phthalate are good fixatives so is Hedione. The thing is that if you use enough fixative to significantly prolong a top note then you also significantly reduce its projection.
    Keep in mind that phthalate is a Endocrine disruption. I believe adding base notes would work as a fixative to prolong the time.
    Information-
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phthalate#Health_effects
    http://phthalates.org/mediacenter/ph...FQJNagodVBtK_Q

  10. #10

    Default Re: Fixatives and the Fleeting Scent

    Has anyone tried Glucam P-20?

    http://www.perfumersapprentice.com/A...ls/glucam.html

    For a long time, I have been searching for an ingredient that I could use that would make perfumes last longer on the skin. In particular, I wanted to make the top and middle notes more persistant. So I started searching....and searching....
    i finally found a product made from corn called glucam p-20. This product extends the life of top and middle notes in a fragrance. Use the links at the left to learn more.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Fixatives and the Fleeting Scent

    Jasmine lasts quite awhile, and really seems to modify other notes strongly. On a scale of 1-10 longevity, jasmine is probably around a 7, vetiver & vanilla (and many others) a 9: orange, lemon, bergamot a 1, may chang (lemony), lemon myrtle, neroli a 2 or 3: orange blossom absolute a 5 or 6, etc.
    ***For sale:

    Iris Pallida 50ml

    Ungaro I 75ml

    and more!
    - http://www.basenotes.net/threads/301...n-Man-and-more

  12. #12

    Default Re: Fixatives and the Fleeting Scent

    eaven citrus perfume can be last long if you get the right one
    you should go with BLUE D CHANEL

  13. #13

    Default Re: Fixatives and the Fleeting Scent

    So much that is wrong with this thread. DPG is not a fixative; it does not make any fragrance last longer. It is used only as an odourless solvent. DEP does not disrupt the endocrine system. There are other chemicals, other Phthalates which possible do this, but DEP is not one of them.

    Never put concentrated Essential Oils on your skin. All Citrus oils contain a chemical (Limonene) which has been shown to be a skin sensitiser, and is on the list of 26 potential allergens. In dilution, Citrus Oils are OK for most people, but using them at 100.0% is risky.

    All Citrus Oils are top notes, and so do not last a long time. There is no magic fix, no special ingredient that you can add to any fragrance to make it last longer without changing its character.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Fixatives and the Fleeting Scent

    Where can DEP be purchased?

  15. #15

    Default Re: Fixatives and the Fleeting Scent

    Google "Diethyl Phthalate buy". You will find lists of suppliers. Go to www.lookchem.com>Products. You will need the Cas No. of DEP which is 84-66-2 Google can find most things.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Fixatives and the Fleeting Scent

    Hahaha, #LOL @ David "Google can find most things".

    You'll love this site

    Your'e welcome to visit my formulation blog, with a dozen of perfume formulations and accords to share!

  17. #17

    Default Re: Fixatives and the Fleeting Scent

    Thank you so much for that; made me laugh. So often, I feel that I am that site.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Fixatives and the Fleeting Scent

    FIXATIVE FOR PERFUME
    Abalyn™ D-E Methyl Ester of Rosin
    Floraesters K-100 Jojoba
    Floraesters K-20W Jojoba
    Sepicide LDForalyn 5020-
    F CG Hydrogenated Rosinate

  19. #19

  20. #20

    Default Re: Fixatives and the Fleeting Scent

    Quote Originally Posted by Neurotic Scientist View Post
    I have tried Glucam P-20 and it certainly does have a fixative effect and it is useful because it is essentially odourless. However the same is true of Isopropyl myristate (a widely used perfumery solvent) which also has fixative properties and nearly true of Benzyl benzoate (nearly odourless that is).

    With any fixative the danger is that you will flatten the fragrance - the top-notes lose their sparkle - if you over-do it.

    Another way to extend citrus is to use intermediate materials that have similar notes: so for example use lemongrass or petitgrain from the same type of citrus. I find olibanum (frankincense) EO is also useful for extending some citrus and there are synthetics like Orange Power or Lemonile (both Givaudan) that will give you a long-lasting note for those types of citrus.

    I feel as thought I've written all that before, more than once, so perhaps it's time for a blog post on the subject . . .
    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  21. #21

    Default Re: Fixatives and the Fleeting Scent

    Quote Originally Posted by LuciusVorenus View Post
    My favorite notes are the Citruses. I love the smell of orange, lime, lemon, bergamot and other citrus fruits. I think citruses are masculine without having too much testosterone, are clean, bright, sunny, uplifiting, refined but simple, and sensual without being too obvious about it. To me, citruses are pure class.

    But the problem is that citruses are not very long lasting. Even the best citruses fade out after a couple of hours.

    My question is this: would citruses and other fleeting scents benefit from a higher concentration of fixatives in the perfume? Is there a way of improving the stability of these scents, making them last longer? If I understand correctly, the fixatives are usually the most expensive ingredient in a perfume. So maybe the manufacturers don't put as much fixative in the perfume as they should. Would it be possible to increase the longevity of a citrus scent by adding more fixative to it? Or maybe the only solution is to buy pure citrus oil and apply it directly to the skin?

    Have you ever considered these questions? What do you think about it?

    Lucius
    .
    Besides that glucan g-20 stuff (which I own but never tried) there are some general principles:

    The way to get natural citrus to last is to build a perfume from the ground up that, every step of the way, is designed to get citrus to last.

    All your base and heart notes have to be citrus enhancing. There is no quick fix, or magic substance.

    Angelica, myrrh, deer musk, civet, and jasmine, litsea, and lemongrass are examples of notes elsewhere in a perfume that will enhance citrus. The old animalis base is good for citrus. Linalool is good, because it lasts long, as well as supporting citrus on the top end.

    Plan on using lots of bergamot, as much as you can get away with, as that's really the longest lasting natural pure citrus top note.

    If you want to get into perfume chemistry, there are a lot more strategies for this, of course.

  22. #22

    Default Re: Fixatives and the Fleeting Scent

    OMG Paul. Thanks for the extensive DEP list. You rock.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Fixatives and the Fleeting Scent

    Quote Originally Posted by jdbiii View Post
    omg paul. Thanks for the extensive dep list. You rock.
    yvw...
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  24. #24

    Default Re: Fixatives and the Fleeting Scent

    No miracle anyway. If you want to extend the life of a material in a fragrance, you reduce his effect in an other part of it. Want more citrus time with a fixative ? > less lift and sparkling. A fixative doesn't create "new material". Because of Lavoisier

  25. #25

    Default Re: Fixatives and the Fleeting Scent

    You could always turn to the dark side...

    Precyclemone B

    'Also called myrmac aldehyde this material is manufactured by IFF, who describe it like this: ďClean, tenacious, ozone note with aldehydic warmth and diffusion. Booster for fragrances requiring a fresh outdoors effect.Ē

    Best used in small amounts, this is a really excellent fresh-air ingredient.
    CAS Number: 52474-60-9

    Full chemical name: 1-methyl-3-(4-methylpent-3-enyl) cyclohex-3-ene-1-carbaldehyde

    With Precyclemone B you get a very long-lasting freshening effect that works exceptionally well in citrus fragrances where you want to prolong the fresh feel beyond the life of the short-lived citrus oils. In traces it can lighten almost any perfume, larger amounts can be used in room-fresheners and marine compositions.'


    I haven't tried that btw, but it's on my list of things to buy.

    -

  26. #26

    Default Re: Fixatives and the Fleeting Scent

    Precyclemone B is one of the key materials in the Cool Water accord (others are Dihydromyrcenol and Allyl Amyl Glycolate). If you want to use synthetics then Hedione works really well in Citrus fragrances, and is a good fixative.

  27. #27

    Default Re: Fixatives and the Fleeting Scent

    A bit o/t here, but does anyone know of an aromachem that smells like ozone? Not 'sea breezes' or 'ocean spray' but actual trioxygen.

    -

  28. #28

    Default Re: Fixatives and the Fleeting Scent

    There is a chemical that smells like hot iron, but I'm damned if I can remember its name.

  29. #29

    Default Re: Fixatives and the Fleeting Scent

    Quote Originally Posted by Skelly View Post
    A bit o/t here, but does anyone know of an aromachem that smells like ozone? Not 'sea breezes' or 'ocean spray' but actual trioxygen.

    -
    Try Floralozone™. It smells ozone... and a bit floral in the drydown.

  30. #30

    Default Re: Fixatives and the Fleeting Scent

    I think that the perfumers term 'ozonic' is a little misleading as it seems to be used to describe fresh, oceanic smells. Actual ozone (O3) smells like halogens, metal, and sparks. The underground bits of London Underground smell of it. Other underground electrical train systems probably smell the same.

    Apparently, the chemical responsible for the real life 'seaside ozone' is dimethyl sulphide; presumably in trace amounts.

    -

  31. #31

    Default Re: Fixatives and the Fleeting Scent

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    There is a chemical that smells like hot iron, but I'm damned if I can remember its name.
    One of the synthetic musks, but I forget which...

  32. #32

    Default Re: Fixatives and the Fleeting Scent

    Quote Originally Posted by DrSmellThis View Post
    One of the synthetic musks, but I forget which...
    Habanolide. Clean shirt under a hot iron. You can try aldehyde C11 undecanal too, at very high dilution.

  33. #33

    Default Re: Fixatives and the Fleeting Scent

    Quote Originally Posted by AK3D View Post
    Ruh Khus (Vetiver) will last well over 12 hours. Other oils more (like Ouds) or less (citruses), depending on their type. I haven't tried jasmine yet, but I aim to find out this week
    Hi AK, Is this the pure Khus you are talking about or the Khus attar for longevity. I was planning to blend myself with the pure vetiver absolute as well as with Mysore sandalwood. I don't know if its pure Mysore oil, but have to try.

    Do you have any experience with KSDL sandal wood oil or the KDFC oil. Pl share your thoughts.

  34. #34

    Default Re: Fixatives and the Fleeting Scent

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Bartlett View Post
    Another way to extend citrus is to use intermediate materials that have similar notes: so for example use lemongrass or petitgrain from the same type of citrus.

    I feel as thought I've written all that before, more than once, so perhaps it's time for a blog post on the subject . . .
    I've also read that Litsea cubeba eo is a less-volatile citrus option. Do you find that to be true?

    A blog post sounds great!

    On another note, any idea what's in this Canvas/Concrete "fragrance primer" product (https://www.canvasandconcrete.com/), and whether or not it is legit?

  35. #35

    Default Re: Fixatives and the Fleeting Scent

    Not Chris, but IMHO, litsea is great for this purpose. Another tool in the chest to have.

  36. #36

    Default Re: Fixatives and the Fleeting Scent

    Quote Originally Posted by leathermountain View Post
    I've also read that Litsea cubeba eo is a less-volatile citrus option. Do you find that to be true?

    A blog post sounds great!

    On another note, any idea what's in this Canvas/Concrete "fragrance primer" product (https://www.canvasandconcrete.com/), and whether or not it is legit?
    Litsea cubeba (sometimes sold as May Chang) and Lemongrass are both mainly Citral, which is what makes them effective in extending citrus so all three are good options.

    Iíve not had time for much blogging for a while but feel free to remind me about this idea if I donít get to it in the next few weeks.

    The idea of a fragrance primer is a great marketing gimmick but it really isnít going to do very much good. Fragrance isnít lost because your skin eats it but because it evaporates - if it didnít you couldnít smell it - of the fragrance that is lost to things other than evaporation itís mostly abraded off with dead skin cells. Iím sure this wonít do any harm but seriously doubt it will have a measurable effect that is greater than, say, using your ordinary moisturiser.

    Honestly if you want to have your fragrance last all night you have two choices: wear a fragrance that has been made to last or carry a top-up and re-spray.
    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  37. #37

    Default Re: Fixatives and the Fleeting Scent

    You may try lemon myrtle as a bridge into the heart to help a lemon scent have more of a drydown period. Diluted orange peel wax works for orange and grapefruit, and, as Arctander wrote, is great for fixing highly-priced florals.

    Very low intensity oils such as copaiba balsam, gurjun, elemi or mastic can do wonders, while not muddying the top notes.
    That's just off the top of my head.
    Anya McCoy - http://anyasgarden.com/
    Best of the Best awards - Perfume: MoonDance, StarFlower, Amberess, Light, Royal Lotus and as
    Project Leader: Outlaw Perfume and Mystery of Musk
    Basic Perfumery Course with lifetime access to the website - http://perfumeclasses.com
    America's First Natural Perfume Line 1991
    First Artisan Perfumer Voted in as member of the American Society of Perfumery 2013

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