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  1. #1

    Default Celine Ellena on naturals and synthetics

    I came across a nice article by Ms. Ellena. The abstract is open source, so I can post that here:

    Source: http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/j...TRY=1&SRETRY=0

    "What does it mean to create fragrances with materials from chemistry and/or from nature? How are they used to display their characteristic differences, their own personality? Is it easier to create with synthetic raw materials or with essential oils? This review explains why a perfume formulation corresponds in fact to a conversation, an interplay between synthetic and natural perfumery materials. A synthetic raw material carries a single information, and usually is very linear. Its smell is uniform, clear, and faithful. Natural raw materials, on the contrary, provide a strong, complex and generous image. While a synthetic material can be seen as a single word, a natural one such as rose oil could be compared to chatting: cold, warm, sticky, heavy, transparent, pepper, green, metallic, smooth, watery, fruity full of information. Yet, if a very small amount of the natural material is used, nothing happens, the fragrance will not change. However, if a large amount is used, the rose oil will swallow up everything else. The fragrance will smell of nothing else except rose! To formulate a perfume is not to create a culinary recipe, with only dosing the ingredients in well-balanced amounts. To formulate rather means to flexibly knit materials together with a lively stitch, meeting or repelling each other, building a pleasant form, which is neither fixed, nor solid, nor rigid. A fragrance has an overall structure, which ranges from a clear sound, made up of stable, unique, and linear items, to a background chat, comfortable and reassuring. But that does, of course, not mean that there is only one way of creating a fragrance!"
    My Wardrobe
    II est de forts parfums pour qui toute matière/Est poreuse. On dirait qu'ils pénètrent le verre.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Celine Ellena on naturals and synthetics

    But that does, of course, not mean that there is only one way of creating a fragrance!

    True that !
    -

  3. #3

    Default Re: Celine Ellena on naturals and synthetics

    Well, that is refreshing. I keep seeing that people equate poorly blended fragrances with synthetic materials. Do not blame the chemist, do not blame the nose, blame the producers who is not willing to invest enough to blend a beautiful sonnet, instead, they rather pay Celine Dione to promote some random juice with her name.

    Heck even Synthetic Haikus can be awesome... LEts just hope scentronic will not read that.
    Last edited by irish; 19th December 2008 at 12:43 AM.
    Shameless Plug: Sales thread with Roses Musk, Rose Poivree, and others.
    Looking for lot of samples of female fragrances.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Celine Ellena on naturals and synthetics

    Great post.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Celine Ellena on naturals and synthetics

    Thanks T_G_L. Interesting, I wonder if by combining N linear synthetics one could achieve a similar effect to a natural oil? For example a fully synthetic iris note or amber for instance...

  6. #6

    Default Re: Celine Ellena on naturals and synthetics

    Quote Originally Posted by jathanas View Post
    Thanks T_G_L. Interesting, I wonder if by combining N linear synthetics one could achieve a similar effect to a natural oil? For example a fully synthetic iris note or amber for instance...
    Frederic Malle's En Passant is the most beautiful, natural-smelling rendition of lilac I know - and like all lilac notes, it's wholly synthetic ( there is no lilac absolute or the like available ).

  7. #7

    Default Re: Celine Ellena on naturals and synthetics

    Good Life not only always has good info and insight, but good timing as well.
    Salut.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Celine Ellena on naturals and synthetics

    Quote Originally Posted by jathanas View Post
    Thanks T_G_L. Interesting, I wonder if by combining N linear synthetics one could achieve a similar effect to a natural oil? For example a fully synthetic iris note or amber for instance...
    Quote Originally Posted by Galamb_Borong View Post
    Frederic Malle's En Passant is the most beautiful, natural-smelling rendition of lilac I know - and like all lilac notes, it's wholly synthetic ( there is no lilac absolute or the like available ).
    Not only is it surely possible that reconstituted naturals, at the limit of perfect reconstitution, are identical to the natural, but it is clearly so in practice, even if the natural cannot be isolated, as Galamb_Borong shows. In my participation in the note identification thread, I found that synthetic reconstitutions of several naturals were not only very pleasing, but were mentally easier to manipulate in combinations, as they were simpler and more predictable. Even more surprising to me was the fact that I generally liked the reconstitutions better for their transparency and simple beauty. This is no accident - it is clearly the work of the perfumers who made them.

    It is not only pleasing to see that JCE's daughter thinks in abstract and quasi-mathematical terms about perfumery, as does he - I dare say she may do it to an even greater degree, if this sample of her thought is any indication.
    * * * *

  9. #9

    Default Re: Celine Ellena on naturals and synthetics

    There is an interesting addendum to the article with a practical example:
    My Wardrobe
    II est de forts parfums pour qui toute matière/Est poreuse. On dirait qu'ils pénètrent le verre.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Celine Ellena on naturals and synthetics

    Cheers for that! The above answers my question well. Amber as a natural oil would be prohibitively expensive so it makes perfect sense to use synthetics as the addendum illustrates. Further 'd assume that the "amber" in most fragrances would be produced by combining synthetics; makes perfect financial sense

  11. #11

    Default Re: Celine Ellena on naturals and synthetics

    Quote Originally Posted by Redneck Perfumisto View Post
    It is not only pleasing to see that JCE's daughter thinks in abstract and quasi-mathematical terms about perfumery, as does he - I dare say she may do it to an even greater degree, if this sample of her thought is any indication.
    Quasi-Mathematical??? Celine is using a linguistic metaphor to argue how synthetics and naturals play their parts to create a "smell-story". It is interesting to read how she views synthetics as single words -- "smell-words" that are sometimes ambigious, sometimes very precise and how these are used in combination with the "chatty" natural essences that convey a lot of information, some of which is extraneous to the perfume being "written". The idea of a linguistic metaphor for explaining how a perfume is constructed makes sense.
    Last edited by surreality; 20th December 2008 at 05:56 AM.
    Seek not the favor of the multitude; it is seldom got by honest and lawful means. But seek the testimony of few; and number not voices, but weigh them. - Immanuel Kant

  12. #12

    Default Re: Celine Ellena on naturals and synthetics

    I've not worked with synthetics but can definitely agree to the 'chatty' nature of most naturals. That's what makes it a real challenge to make a complex all natural scent that doesn't sound like the din of a hundred people chatting at a Christmas party or something. Of course, the key is to structure it more like a musical performance where you've got your lead singer and then backup singers who weave in and out of the composition and offer a backing harmony when they appear.

    Thanks for the post TGL! I've only sniffed one Celine Ellena creation but i like it far more than anything her father has done.
    ***For sale:

    Iris Pallida 50ml

    Ungaro I 75ml

    and more!
    - http://www.basenotes.net/threads/301...n-Man-and-more

  13. #13

    Default Re: Celine Ellena on naturals and synthetics

    Quote Originally Posted by SculptureOfSoul View Post
    I've not worked with synthetics but can definitely agree to the 'chatty' nature of most naturals. That's what makes it a real challenge to make a complex all natural scent that doesn't sound like the din of a hundred people chatting at a Christmas party or something. Of course, the key is to structure it more like a musical performance where you've got your lead singer and then backup singers who weave in and out of the composition and offer a backing harmony when they appear.

    Thanks for the post TGL! I've only sniffed one Celine Ellena creation but i like it far more than anything her father has done.
    Ah... after reading the article the back-up/lead singer approach seems like a mixed metaphor approach to building a fragrance. The folloowing is what Celine had to say about the "Musical Metaphor".

    "The Musical Metaphor. – Music implies nice sounds, tones, and rhythm. Musical
    notes are often compared with olfactory notes, which are arranged until they form the
    right melody. This metaphor can explain that each odor/sound has a specific identity,
    but it does not explain what this identity is made of, or how to use it.

    These metaphors are useful in a way, but they say nothing about the differences
    between naturals and synthetics in composition. That is the reason why a third
    approach is proposed in this paper, an approach which was inspired by verbal
    communication, explaining why the perfumer can be seen also as a form of linguist, and
    what kind of words and sentences a perfumer works with."
    Seek not the favor of the multitude; it is seldom got by honest and lawful means. But seek the testimony of few; and number not voices, but weigh them. - Immanuel Kant

  14. #14

    Default Re: Celine Ellena on naturals and synthetics

    If the creation of a fragrance is like a conversation or the building of a descriptive sentence, does that mean that there is a grammar one must conform to in order to make a coherent perfume?
    Last edited by surreality; 20th December 2008 at 05:29 PM.
    Seek not the favor of the multitude; it is seldom got by honest and lawful means. But seek the testimony of few; and number not voices, but weigh them. - Immanuel Kant

  15. #15

    Default Re: Celine Ellena on naturals and synthetics

    thanks a bunch for the article TGL! At times it is very nice indeed to have access to databases like these
    Looking to swap/buy/receive for free () the following samples/decants:
    Indult Tihota & Rêve en Cuir
    Chant d'Aromes extrait
    Vetiver pour Elle (5ml decant)


    Selling/swapping:
    Versace The Dreamer 50ml (1.7oz) BNIB
    ---

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    http://polderposh.blogspot.com/

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