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  1. #1

    Default Is it true that the natural perfumers guild allows animal

    Hey there, I'm new to base notes and I am enjoying everything about it so far. I was hoping someone can help me. I want to fond out if there is any truth in the rumors

  2. #2

    Default Re: Is it true that the natural perfumers guild allows animal

    I clicked the wrong button sorry. I heard that the guild allows members who Re selling animL cruelty products like civet. Is this true? I am a vegan and only wear natural perfumes. I was shocked to hear that news. Does any body know if it is true. I love base notes.

    Karen

  3. #3

    Default Re: Is it true that the natural perfumers guild allows animal

    I am curious to know this myself. I would hope not but I fear the worst. I just did some very quick searches and it looks like they might. Maybe a more knowledgeable member will chime in.

    There are natural perfumers who do not use civet (for obvious moral reasons). Ayala Moriel comes to mind.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Is it true that the natural perfumers guild allows animal

    Natural perfumers are just that. They don't use synthetics (though the line between synthetics and naturals can be very blurry at times - that is a whole different debate). They do not necessarily conform to a particular moral/ethical position. Like anywhere else -there will be a range of opinion in natural perfumery on ethical issues - some will be wholly against animal ingredients and others will wish to use the traditional historical ingredients. If that is important to you, track down the ones who meet your criteria by careful reading or asking direct questions.


    This post is for information only and does not reflect my personal opinion.
    "Don’t try to be original. Be simple. Be good technically, and if there is something in you, it will come out. ” - Henri Matisse.

    "Wear R de Capucci" - Hirch Duckfinder

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  5. #5

    Default Re: Is it true that the natural perfumers guild allows animal

    I know Ayala Moriel takes an ethical stance when it comes to animal products - the only ones she uses are beeswax, beach-harvested ambergris and "African Stone Tincture", made from hyrax droppings, none of which hurt the animal involved.
    Last edited by Sugandaraja; 7th January 2009 at 09:46 PM.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Is it true that the natural perfumers guild allows animal

    Quote Originally Posted by Galamb_Borong View Post
    I know Ayala Moriel takes an ethical stance when it comes to animal products - the only ones she uses are beeswax, beach-harvested ambergris and "African Stone Tincture", made from hyrax droppings, none of which hurt the animal involved.
    Vegans do not use any products derived from animals, this includes honey, milk, eggs, and I assume beeswax.

    I know LUSH has vegan perfumes but they do use some synthetics. I think it might be hard to find a vegan and all natural perfume. Synthetics aren't as bad as they sound.
    But once you get locked into a serious perfume collection, the tendency is to push it as far as you can.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Is it true that the natural perfumers guild allows animal

    Quote Originally Posted by Lian View Post
    Vegans do not use any products derived from animals, this includes honey, milk, eggs, and I assume beeswax.
    I understand beeswax, but I can't really see the moral objections from a vegan point of view of the other two...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lian View Post
    I know LUSH has vegan perfumes but they do use some synthetics. I think it might be hard to find a vegan and all natural perfume. Synthetics aren't as bad as they sound.
    If someone was willing to compromise slightly on synthetics, Sonoma Scent Studio might be worth looking into.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Is it true that the natural perfumers guild allows animal

    Quote Originally Posted by Futami View Post
    I am curious to know this myself. I would hope not but I fear the worst. I just did some very quick searches and it looks like they might. Maybe a more knowledgeable member will chime in.

    There are natural perfumers who do not use civet (for obvious moral reasons). Ayala Moriel comes to mind.
    Thank you. I was very surprised that the guild would promote or accept members who supply that barbaric trade. Though I am a vegan I have nothing against other people using animal product. It wouldn't be the end of the world if I used a perfume that contained beeswax although by choice I would prefer not. But i am afraid to magine wearing a perfume that contained civet! Or the natural musk? Aren't those deer on the endangered species list? I love to see the truth in labelling pledge on web sites. Do you think that the perfumers on the guild list use the animal cruelty ingredient? I have already purchased from one of the well known perfumers. I am afraid to think that it may have something horrible in it. But it smells so Good. And it was so expensive. There was no ingredients list but honey and beeswax were not listed on the notes. I would not have imagined that these days they would condone the animal cruelty trade. It makes me think twice about not using synthetics. At least I will know that nothing suffered.
    I have heard of ayala moriel. I think I saw her name on the guild list though.

    Karen

  9. #9

    Default Re: Is it true that the natural perfumers guild allows animal

    I think the civet cat is on the endangered species list and all trade and hunt of it is forbidden by law, but they could use other ingredients derived from animals and I don't know about the musk deers.

    Synthetics are the way to go in my opinion, the quality of synthetics has improved a lot over the years so I've read and most houses use it because its also more predictable, and they use naturals too to give it more depth.

    Lush has excellent vegan perfumes and all their products that are vega are marked as such and they try use the highest amount of natural oils they can, they save money on using ugly bottles
    But once you get locked into a serious perfume collection, the tendency is to push it as far as you can.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Is it true that the natural perfumers guild allows animal

    Quote Originally Posted by Lian View Post
    I think the civet cat is on the endangered species list and all trade and hunt of it is forbidden by law, but they could use other ingredients derived from animals and I don't know about the musk deers.

    Synthetics are the way to go in my opinion, the quality of synthetics has improved a lot over the years so I've read and most houses use it because its also more predictable, and they use naturals too to give it more depth.

    Lush has excellent vegan perfumes and all their products that are vega are marked as such and they try use the highest amount of natural oils they can, they save money on using ugly bottles
    But this is very weird. When I look at the website on the guild who has the cruelty products I am looking to see have they any information and there is plenty . All of it indicates that the civet and the musk pods are real!! How can that be? I think you may be right about synthetics if it means natural perfumery have no ethics. These days that is most shocking. I do not want to be like a moaning woman. If someone wants to do something, I say let them. But not when it hurts a defenceless animal. Do you think that I should make a complaint to someone about it? Do you think there is any point in sending an email to the guild directors? I am sorry for this sad thread.

    Karen

    Thank you for the links. I have already checked a couple of them.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Is it true that the natural perfumers guild allows animal

    I'm surprised at the idea that natural perfumery should imply non-animal perfumery. I don't see that the two would necessarily have any link at all, so I don't see that there's any truth in labelling issue.

    In, fact, I've never assumed that "natural" perfumery is necessarily a more moral thing - I would assume that there might be all sorts of tradeoffs involved with it.

    Fore example, how much fertilizer, water, equipment, gasoline, and pesticides were used for those flower fields? How many trees were cut down for the sandalwood? How many animals were killed for the musk? (Since I would assume that "natural" musk would indeed involve an animal. Yes, now I know about ambrette seed, but is a musk note from that really a "natural" musk note, given that musk is inherently an animal scent?)

    So I wouldn't trust that "natural" alone means a good thing - I'd go on to look for more material about the specific house and specific perfume.

    Rather than adding meanings to "natural" that, IMO, don't really belong, I think that it would be more straightforward to instead create a new term. Sustainable perfumery? Organic perfumery?

    Crayfish

  12. #12

    Default Re: Is it true that the natural perfumers guild allows animal

    Whatever they say, not all 'natural perfumers' work with natural products exclusively.
    'Il mondo dei profumi è un universo senza limiti: una fraganza puo rievocare sensazioni, luoghi, persone o ancora condurre in uno spazio di nuove dimensioni emozionali' L. V.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Is it true that the natural perfumers guild allows animal

    Quote Originally Posted by kindergirlkaren View Post
    (...) All of it indicates that the civet and the musk pods are real!! How can that be? I think you may be right about synthetics if it means natural perfumery have no ethics. These days that is most shocking. I do not want to be like a moaning woman. If someone wants to do something, I say let them. But not when it hurts a defenceless animal. (...)
    Hi, I would beg you to keep in mind that just because natural perfumers don't share YOUR ethics does not mean they have NO ethics. Natural perfumery is not in any objectifiable way morally superior or inferior to any other kind of perfumery, it merely represents particular choices on how to do things and entails the consequences. Judgment upon this is purely in the eye of the beholder. In view of the state of the world one could easily condemn perfumery in its entirety as one of the superfluous luxuries of a gluttonous minority of primarily Western decadents parasitically feeding off the misery of Billions....But I'm going to keep wearing my 'fumes (the aesthetically pleasing ones), eating meat (organic) and wearing fine leather shoes (the kind that lasts 20 years) - my modest attempt at reconciling hedonism, good taste and sustainability .
    Last edited by the_good_life; 8th January 2009 at 08:44 AM.
    My Wardrobe
    II est de forts parfums pour qui toute matière/Est poreuse. On dirait qu'ils pénètrent le verre.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Is it true that the natural perfumers guild allows animal

    Quote Originally Posted by the_good_life View Post
    Hi, I would beg you to keep in mind that just because natural perfumers don't share YOUR ethics does not mean they have NO ethics.
    Exactly.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Is it true that the natural perfumers guild allows animal

    They killed all those poor flowers!
    Wanted: a cap of Bvlgari Thé Vert

    Wanted: L' Artisan Timbuktu or Fragonard Concerto

    Feel free to visit Polderposh - a young up & coming Dutch fragrance blog!

  16. #16

    Default Re: Is it true that the natural perfumers guild allows animal

    Quote Originally Posted by the_good_life View Post
    Hi, I would beg you to keep in mind that just because natural perfumers don't share YOUR ethics does not mean they have NO ethics. Natural perfumery is not in any objectifiable way morally superior or inferior to any other kind of perfumery, it merely represents particular choices on how to do things and entails the consequences. Judgment upon this is purely in the eye of the beholder. In view of the state of the world one could easily condemn perfumery in its entirety as one of the superfluous luxuries of a gluttonous minority of primarily Western decadents parasitically feeding off the misery of Billions....But I'm going to keep wearing my 'fumes (the aesthetically pleasing ones), eating meat (organic) and wearing fine leather shoes (the kind that lasts 20 years) - my modest attempt at reconciling hedonism, good taste and sustainability .
    hey there! I meant to say that the natural perfumers guild seem to have no ethics. In these times I believe that no matter if you are a vegan or a meat eater is not important. The point that I am making is that the guild promote the business selling these materials. That bothers me because I would not like to think that there was real civet on my skin. Also I would not like to think that people are still killing the musk deer.
    Karen

  17. #17

    Default Re: Is it true that the natural perfumers guild allows animal

    If anyone is wondering, the OP wasn't banned because they asked this question. It is a perfectly valid question and I will leave the thread open to continue this debate if anyone wishes to.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Is it true that the natural perfumers guild allows animal

    I think this interview might be helpful
    http://www.sniffapaloozamagazine.com...veiwdec08.html

    and here is a perfumer who is all natural and does not use any animalic ingredients
    http://purrfumery.com/store/HTML_pages/perfumery.html


    I think you should ask the all natural perfumery if they could clearly state whether they use all natural animal ingredients or if they are replaced with synthetics that are created and have the same scent molecules as the natural stuff.
    But once you get locked into a serious perfume collection, the tendency is to push it as far as you can.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Is it true that the natural perfumers guild allows animal

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    If anyone is wondering, the OP wasn't banned because they asked this question. It is a perfectly valid question and I will leave the thread open to continue this debate if anyone wishes to.
    Thanks, Grant, I agree. People are free to discuss any aspect of any business - within reason, and by reasonable people. It was known that the banned poster is an obsessed stalker who has done this before, so she just was trying to libel folks again. One can only forgive her and move on, she's dug her own grave in the perfumery world, from what I've heard. In the meantime, feel free to write any perfumer, in the Guild or otherwise, and ask what they use, or just check their websites. Although I use ethically-harvested animal products in my current line of perfumes, I will be coming out with an all-natural vegan line of aromatherapy perfumes this year. On the other hand, I have antique civet paste that was given to me as a gift from a retired perfumer many years ago, and if any custom perfume client states no objection, some mods are presented to them with it as an ingredient.
    Anya McCoy - http://anyasgarden.com/
    Best of the Best awards - Perfume: MoonDance, StarFlower, Amberess, Light, Royal Lotus and as
    Project Leader: Outlaw Perfume and Mystery of Musk
    Basic Perfumery Course with lifetime access to the website - http://perfumeclasses.com
    America's First Natural Perfume Line 1991
    First Artisan Perfumer Voted in as member of the American Society of Perfumery 2013

  20. #20

    Default Re: Is it true that the natural perfumers guild allows animal

    Quote Originally Posted by Lian View Post
    Vegans do not use any products derived from animals, this includes honey, milk, eggs, and I assume beeswax.

    I know LUSH has vegan perfumes but they do use some synthetics. I think it might be hard to find a vegan and all natural perfume. Synthetics aren't as bad as they sound.
    Hi Lian:

    I see a lot of 'organic, vegan' perfumes at Whole Foods and they're made entirely with synthetic aromatics. I also know a lot of perfumers in the Guild - and I'm sure many not in the Guild - make vegan, all-natural perfumes. Some don't use absolutes in the perfumes because they're avoiding petroleum solvents (even though they're really all evaporated off by the time the absolute is finished.)

    Perhaps the world of perfumery is evolving so much that there is a niche to be found for every desire. At least one can hope so: from totally synthetic to totally natural/vegan.
    Anya McCoy - http://anyasgarden.com/
    Best of the Best awards - Perfume: MoonDance, StarFlower, Amberess, Light, Royal Lotus and as
    Project Leader: Outlaw Perfume and Mystery of Musk
    Basic Perfumery Course with lifetime access to the website - http://perfumeclasses.com
    America's First Natural Perfume Line 1991
    First Artisan Perfumer Voted in as member of the American Society of Perfumery 2013

  21. #21

    Default Re: Is it true that the natural perfumers guild allows animal

    Quote Originally Posted by Natural_Juice View Post
    Perhaps the world of perfumery is evolving so much that there is a niche to be found for every desire. At least one can hope so: from totally synthetic to totally natural/vegan.
    i don't know anything about the OP but I think it's good that soon all niches in perfumery will be willed. I'd love to hear more about the animal friendly way of harvesting too, either here or in PM. I'm happy to buy synthetics because I have tons of allergies and I'm worried that the all natural perfumes just make me sneeze like there is no tomorrow, some normal perfumes do this too.

    I heard though that if you eat the honey that is collected by bees who use the plants and flowers you are allergic too you can help to lessen your allergies because you build up a resistence by being exposed through to the allergens in the beehoney. It's not enough to bring you out in an allergy attack but overtime you do build u a resistence.

    I wonder if the same could be true for all natural perfumes?
    But once you get locked into a serious perfume collection, the tendency is to push it as far as you can.

  22. #22

    Default Re: Is it true that the natural perfumers guild allows animal

    Quote Originally Posted by Lian View Post

    I heard though that if you eat the honey that is collected by bees who use the plants and flowers you are allergic too you can help to lessen your allergies because you build up a resistence by being exposed through to the allergens in the beehoney. It's not enough to bring you out in an allergy attack but overtime you do build u a resistence.
    This is a popular belief (often perpetuated by people who sell honey). The truth is that most people's pollen allergy is triggered by various grasses - not the flowers that honeybees pollinate.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Is it true that the natural perfumers guild allows animal

    Quote Originally Posted by Lian View Post
    i don't know anything about the OP but I think it's good that soon all niches in perfumery will be willed. I'd love to hear more about the animal friendly way of harvesting too, either here or in PM. I'm happy to buy synthetics because I have tons of allergies and I'm worried that the all natural perfumes just make me sneeze like there is no tomorrow, some normal perfumes do this too.
    It's possible you are allergic to naturals. I'm allergic to a lot of synthetics. We're all biological entities with our own peculiar set of triggers. For animal-friendly fixatives, I can think of beach-harvested ambergris, hyrax and goat hair. About castoreum: it's a byproduct of a meat/fur industry, so unlike civets, they aren't bred or tortured for their product. If you eat meat, don't be put off by castoreum, well, at least I'm not. If we could tincture beef jerky for a fixative, would that be wrong to anybody but vegans?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lian View Post
    I heard though that if you eat the honey that is collected by bees who use the plants and flowers you are allergic too you can help to lessen your allergies because you build up a resistence by being exposed through to the allergens in the beehoney. It's not enough to bring you out in an allergy attack but overtime you do build u a resistence.

    I wonder if the same could be true for all natural perfumes?
    Might work. I remember being taught in an epidemiology class that it was believed the polio epidemics of the early 1950's were caused by the children having an immume system that was vulnerable due to the over-cleansing of the environment. Post-War mommies took great pride in sterilizing all surfaces with bleach, etc., and the kids didn't have the chance to build up immunity to germs like polio. I've also heard about the local honey theory. Might work.
    Anya McCoy - http://anyasgarden.com/
    Best of the Best awards - Perfume: MoonDance, StarFlower, Amberess, Light, Royal Lotus and as
    Project Leader: Outlaw Perfume and Mystery of Musk
    Basic Perfumery Course with lifetime access to the website - http://perfumeclasses.com
    America's First Natural Perfume Line 1991
    First Artisan Perfumer Voted in as member of the American Society of Perfumery 2013

  24. #24

    Default Re: Is it true that the natural perfumers guild allows animal

    Quote Originally Posted by Lian View Post
    and here is a perfumer who is all natural and does not use any animalic ingredients http://purrfumery.com/store/HTML_pages/perfumery.html
    I visited her site and she really bashes other natural perfumers indiscriminately, saying many use illegal musks and civet and such. Not true at all! Maybe she just knows the wrong natural perfumers. One fellow I know has antique stuff, like I do, but I only know of maybe two others who use civet. Practically NOBODY in the world has musk pods/tincture, so take what her site says with a big grain of salt.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lian View Post
    I think you should ask the all natural perfumery if they could clearly state whether they use all natural animal ingredients or if they are replaced with synthetics that are created and have the same scent molecules as the natural stuff.
    Perfumers in the Guild do not use any synth fixatives. One famous perfumer just joined the Guild, and she has some synth aromatics lines. At her own volition, when contacted us to join said she's replacing the synth animal fixatives she has in one of her lines, reformulating them. I'm not going to speak for her at this time about what fixatives she is going to use, but she is known for transparency, so when she announces it, that'll be fine. It's a wide world of choice out there, and I'm glad to have this opportunity to clarify some points so you have a more balanced picture of what we do.
    Anya McCoy - http://anyasgarden.com/
    Best of the Best awards - Perfume: MoonDance, StarFlower, Amberess, Light, Royal Lotus and as
    Project Leader: Outlaw Perfume and Mystery of Musk
    Basic Perfumery Course with lifetime access to the website - http://perfumeclasses.com
    America's First Natural Perfume Line 1991
    First Artisan Perfumer Voted in as member of the American Society of Perfumery 2013

  25. #25

    Default Re: Is it true that the natural perfumers guild allows animal

    It is biologically improbable, if not impossible, to be allergic to EVERY ingredient in a fragrance (regardless whether natural or synthetic).

  26. #26

    Default Re: Is it true that the natural perfumers guild allows animal

    Quote Originally Posted by Natural_Juice View Post
    About castoreum: it's a byproduct of a meat/fur industry, so unlike civets, they aren't bred or tortured for their product. If you eat meat, don't be put off by castoreum, well, at least I'm not. If we could tincture beef jerky for a fixative, would that be wrong to anybody but vegans?
    Vegetarians and particularly vegans would argue with that point by saying that the fur and meat industries are cruel. (I'm not either vegan or fully vegetarian, but I can see their point). What do you think about that position?

    Might work. I remember being taught in an epidemiology class that it was believed the polio epidemics of the early 1950's were caused by the children having an immume system that was vulnerable due to the over-cleansing of the environment. Post-War mommies took great pride in sterilizing all surfaces with bleach, etc., and the kids didn't have the chance to build up immunity to germs like polio.
    True = our over-use of antibacterial materials and over-cleansing is destroying the skin's protective barrier and we therefore allow more irritants in than was ever "intended". Furthermore, our immune systems were developed to cater for situations where we'd be infested with parasites and attacked by a lot of bugs and bacteria - if living in an over-clean environment without any exposure to potential irritants, allergens and bugs, our immune systems can turn aggressive towards basically benign substances and even towards attacking our own body. This is not to say that we shouldn't rinse out our salad to prevent food poisoning or not to wash our hands after being in hospital or using the toilet, but there is absolutely no need to stick Triclosan in a toothpaste or spray disinfectant all over your house. Soap and water is very effective in removing bacteria (more effective than antibacterial hand wash, actually) because the mechanical action of washing your hands removes most of the bugs very thoroughly. My weasel-statement at this stage would be that all of this appears to be the current popular theory, but more research is needed (and I don't know the full details, but am studying more all the time).

    I've also heard about the local honey theory. Might work.
    No, it probably won't. As I said in my earlier post, this is a myth:

    Allergy Myths Revealed
    Experts Dispel Misconceptions About Allergy Causes and Remedies

    Fact or Myth? Eat the local honey and you won't get seasonal allergies.

    Answer: Myth


    There may be a (pollen) grain of truth to the idea behind it, but eating honey and the pollens it's made from won't fix your seasonal allergies.

    "The notion is that pollen causes allergy, and honey is made from pollen. Perhaps if you took the pollen and ingested it … then it might somehow build up a tolerance," said Douglas Leavengood, an allergist at Gulf Coast Asthma and Allergy in Biloxi, Miss.

    The problem with that thinking, said Leavengood, is that the pollens creating allergy problems aren't the ones bees use for honey.

    "It's the tree, grass and weeds that are the allergy pollens. They broadcast [their pollen]," he said.

    The pollens bees use in honey are the heavy, sticky pollens from flowers that rely on bees to spread it so the plants can reproduce.

    "The pollen the honey is made out of is not the pollen that causes the allergies. It's not tree pollen and it's not grass pollen," said Leavengood. "As far as allergy goes, it's just the wrong type of pollen."

  27. #27

    Default Re: Is it true that the natural perfumers guild allows animal

    Quote Originally Posted by Nukapai View Post
    Vegetarians and particularly vegans would argue with that point by saying that the fur and meat industries are cruel. (I'm not either vegan or fully vegetarian, but I can see their point). What do you think about that position?
    I can't speak for anybody else position, and my opinion is just an opinion. They are free to search out products that fit their positions and their opinions.
    Anya McCoy - http://anyasgarden.com/
    Best of the Best awards - Perfume: MoonDance, StarFlower, Amberess, Light, Royal Lotus and as
    Project Leader: Outlaw Perfume and Mystery of Musk
    Basic Perfumery Course with lifetime access to the website - http://perfumeclasses.com
    America's First Natural Perfume Line 1991
    First Artisan Perfumer Voted in as member of the American Society of Perfumery 2013

  28. #28

    Default Re: Is it true that the natural perfumers guild allows animal

    Can anyone give me examples of natural/organic perfumes which use non-synthetic musk and civet ?
    -

  29. #29

    Default Re: Is it true that the natural perfumers guild allows animal

    Practically NOBODY in the world has musk pods/tincture, so take what her site says with a big grain of salt.
    China farms musk deer and sells musk grain to herbalists and perfumers, so it is possible that she does use real musk (although farmed musk is supposedly of a lesser quality than wild musk deer musk).
    Seek not the favor of the multitude; it is seldom got by honest and lawful means. But seek the testimony of few; and number not voices, but weigh them. - Immanuel Kant

  30. #30

    Default Re: Is it true that the natural perfumers guild allows animal

    Quote Originally Posted by Natural_Juice View Post
    I can't speak for anybody else position, and my opinion is just an opinion. They are free to search out products that fit their positions and their opinions.
    Fair enough (and you have every right to). Would have been interested in your answer to my question though!

  31. #31

    Default Re: Is it true that the natural perfumers guild allows animal

    Quote Originally Posted by zztopp View Post
    Can anyone give me examples of natural/organic perfumes which use non-synthetic musk and civet ?
    I don't know of any except Profumo in Italy, who uses civet. I suggest you contact the perfumer cited earlier in this thread, since she seemed to have a lot of info about natural perfumers she claimed used it/them. Please ask her what proof she has, also - that would be prudent before names or groups are bandied about as "Karen" did with her claims.
    Anya McCoy - http://anyasgarden.com/
    Best of the Best awards - Perfume: MoonDance, StarFlower, Amberess, Light, Royal Lotus and as
    Project Leader: Outlaw Perfume and Mystery of Musk
    Basic Perfumery Course with lifetime access to the website - http://perfumeclasses.com
    America's First Natural Perfume Line 1991
    First Artisan Perfumer Voted in as member of the American Society of Perfumery 2013

  32. #32

    Default Re: Is it true that the natural perfumers guild allows animal

    Quote Originally Posted by surreality View Post
    China farms musk deer and sells musk grain to herbalists and perfumers, so it is possible that she does use real musk (although farmed musk is supposedly of a lesser quality than wild musk deer musk).
    My original quote stated "practically NO ONE" in the world uses real musk. Of course there may be some, it's a big, complex world full of people with their individual desires and philosophies. I am aware of the TCM farms, there may be one starting in Korea soon. They use arthroscopic surgery, maybe a 1.5" incision. It's very, very hard to obtain the musk. Who is the "she" you are referring to in your quote?

    As a side note, I always thought they must have armed guards on the deer farms to shoot poachers. So the guns remain in the picture. Maybe they don't have guards, but I can't imagine how they'd avoid poaching.
    Last edited by Natural_Juice; 9th January 2009 at 07:43 PM. Reason: ""
    Anya McCoy - http://anyasgarden.com/
    Best of the Best awards - Perfume: MoonDance, StarFlower, Amberess, Light, Royal Lotus and as
    Project Leader: Outlaw Perfume and Mystery of Musk
    Basic Perfumery Course with lifetime access to the website - http://perfumeclasses.com
    America's First Natural Perfume Line 1991
    First Artisan Perfumer Voted in as member of the American Society of Perfumery 2013

  33. #33

    Default Re: Is it true that the natural perfumers guild allows animal

    China farms musk deer and sells musk grain to herbalists and perfumers, so it is possible that she does use real musk (although farmed musk is supposedly of a lesser quality than wild musk deer musk).
    Yes, true, but don't you think the most plausible explanation is that the person that claims to use real musk is either:

    a) just lying

    b) has been lied to by a supplier and is naively forwarding the info on her website

    ??

    I would agree with the above that it would be next to impossible to keep poachers away. The setup required for such an operation would make the end product so expensive it would be impossible to make a profit.

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