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Thread: Castoreum

  1. #1

    Default Castoreum

    Hello,

    Anybody know a reliable supplier for Castoreum? I've been trying in vain to find one with authentic absolute in the US.

    Thanks!!!

  2. #2

    Default Re: Castoreum

    There are none. What you order will be so adulterated (assuming it has any of the real stuff at all) you might as well just pay less for a synthetic and at least know what you are getting.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Castoreum

    Hi Pooki,

    you may want to try Profumo. Visit http://www.profumo.it/perfume/aromat.../castoreum.htm

    I ordered castoreum from Profumo and think its authentic.
    ointments and perfume delight the heart....

    #BBOG!

  4. #4

    Default Re: Castoreum

    People and companies don't use it because it is a product of cruelty.

    Get the Givaudan synthetic. Chanel No. 5 used to have Civet (another product of cruelty) and they switched to the Givaudan synthetic in 1998. No one noticed.

    Buy Givaudan castoreum here: http://store.perfumersapprentice.com/bl-040.html

  5. #5

    Default Re: Castoreum

    Edited for correction: I know of no suppliers and I use the synthetic from Givaudan.

    I do however agree that is a product of animal cruelty and would not use it for that reason.
    Last edited by Rebewshka; 20th January 2009 at 01:01 AM.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Castoreum

    Castoreum comes from the very not-endangered beaver, not the musk deer. I eat meat, so castoreum causes no qualms on my part.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Castoreum

    Quote Originally Posted by Galamb_Borong View Post
    Castoreum comes from the very not-endangered beaver, not the musk deer. I eat meat, so castoreum causes no qualms on my part.
    But do you eat beaver meat?

  8. #8

    Default Re: Castoreum

    Quote Originally Posted by Rebewshka View Post
    There are none. What you order will be so adulterated (assuming it has any of the real stuff at all) you might as well just pay less for a synthetic and at least know what you are getting.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rebewshka View Post
    That is correct. Anyway, the musk deer is nearly extinct now and if you find some that is "real" even if you don't mind killing a nearly extinct animal for it, chances are it isn't from the real thing.
    As has already been pointed out, castoreum comes from beavers not musk dear, two entirely different creatures; musk and castoreum are two entirely different products.

    You really ought to get your facts correct before you give out misinformation based on your politics. You'll find that there are more than enough people on this board to call your bluff.

    I don't find your animal cruelty politics distasteful; it's your ignorance that I find distasteful and especially how glibly you parade it under the guise of knowing what you're talking about.

    Apart from getting the different animals wrong, you're also wrong on the availability/rarity of Castoreum.
    Castoreum is a by product of beaver the pelt industry that supplies the Inuit people with pelts for fur clothing. There is no ban on the killing of beavers for their pelts. Such pelts are a key source of clothing for the Inuit people. Castoreum is hardly as scarce or as rare as you pretend to know it is because the animals from which it is derived are "nearly extinct" as you erroneously claim. In the main, castoreum is not used anymore to avoid charges of animal cruelty.

    Wrong on both accounts and zero credibility. Welcome to Basenotes. What a great start.

    By the way, castoreum glands can be removed without killing the beaver; that's not the case with musk dear.

    Pooki, there is a Basenoter currently selling his 1.7 oz bottle of castoreum tincture (from www.profumo.it) on the Basnotes Marketplace Items for Sale board if you're interested. I know it's not the absolute, but I suspect that unless you have industry connections, the absolute would be almost impossible to source and unavailable for non-professional use. Here's the link:

    http://community.basenotes.net/showthread.php?t=218506

    You might also consider emailing Abdes Salam Attar the "perfume composer" behind the www.profumo.it website for some advice about sourcing natural castoreum. I know he also he is also registered as a Basenotes member and contributes to this board, but at the moment his Basenotes name escapes me. Perhaps, if he sees this post, he will respond or some other Basenoter will provide his Basenotes name.

    One final point, castoreum absolute is not soluble in alcohol. Unless you have access to mechanical or chemical processes that can make it more soluble or the knowledge to undertake such processing, you would be well advised to use it in the more easily accessible tincture form, the form in which it is most commonly used in perfumery.


    Quote Originally Posted by Neurotic Scientist View Post
    Get the Givaudan synthetic. Chanel No. 5 used to have Civet (another product of cruelty) and they switched to the Givaudan synthetic in 1998. No one noticed.

    Buy Givaudan castoreum here: http://store.perfumersapprentice.com/bl-040.html
    The unspoken assumption that key animal derived perfumery products are simply replaceable by modern synthetics, no matter how good those synthetics are, and some of them are very good, obscures the fact that when you ask real perfumers who have worked with the former not one of them will glibly suggest switching to a synthetic substitute without first acknowledging a significant loss in doing so to the depth, complexity, and amplitude of the resultant formulation. This is a very important fact to those practicing perfumery. People replying to threads such as these would do well to remember that fact and that Basenotes is many times the place of last resort when all other avenues have been exhausted by those posting in search of specific information. It’s a little glib to suggest immediately to forget about naturals and settle for synthetics. I, as a rule, usually give the poster the benefit of the doubt that they are at least aware of that option. Kudos to Basenoters like perfaddict who actually try to directly answer the poster's query.

    Also, the argument that no one noticed that Chanel switched to synthetic civet for Chanel No. 5 in 1998 is a excellent example of the glibness I refer to above. Incidentally, the query was about castoreum and not about civet. Furthermore, if you're talking about the general public not noticing the switch, that's hardly an argument in your favor. The general public doesn't really notice much of anything. I noticed the switch with Chanel No. 5, and, even more importantly, in regard to this thread, I also noticed that the castoreum tincture--among other things--used to establish the leather accord of Chanel No. 19 EDT ceased to be used when Chanel No.19 EDT was reformulated sometime in the last ten years to its decided detriment. The superiority of natural animal derived perfumery ingredients over synthetic substitutes is why almost all of us who notice such things on Basenotes almost always prefer the vintage version over the reformulated version hands down. One would do well to remember that when offering "advice" about synthetics to posters in search of naturals.

    scentemental

    Last edited by scentemental; 19th January 2009 at 10:38 PM.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Castoreum

    Quote Originally Posted by scentemental View Post
    [COLOR=Blue]As has already been pointed out, castoreum comes from beavers not musk dear, two entirely different creatures; musk and castoreum are two entirely different products.
    (snipped long post)

    Excellent post, scentemental. Your knowledge is a beacon of light.
    Anya McCoy - http://anyasgarden.com/
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  10. #10

    Default Re: Castoreum

    Quote Originally Posted by Natural_Juice View Post
    (snipped long post)

    Excellent post, scentemental. Your knowledge is a beacon of light.
    Thank you so much Natural_Juice. I really appreciate your saying so.

    scentemental

  11. #11

    Default Re: Castoreum

    Quote Originally Posted by Natural_Juice View Post
    (snipped long post)

    Excellent post, scentemental. Your knowledge is a beacon of light.
    I strongly aprove Anya "Natural Juice". It is an impressive show of soundness of knowledge and of seriousness and professionality in explaining. I have nothing to add. Here is a link to how to make Castoreum tincture. At the moment I do not find the English version, but the pictures explain about everything, http://www.profumo.it/aromaterapia/o...um_tintura.htm

    AbdesSalaam Attar
    Last edited by Profumo; 19th January 2009 at 07:38 PM.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Castoreum

    Quote Originally Posted by Natural_Juice View Post
    (snipped long post)

    Excellent post, scentemental.
    I thought it rude and uncalled for. Scentimental could have corrected Rebewshka and Neurotic Scientist in a way that was more tactful and less condescending.
    Seek not the favor of the multitude; it is seldom got by honest and lawful means. But seek the testimony of few; and number not voices, but weigh them. - Immanuel Kant

  13. #13

    Default Re: Castoreum

    Quote Originally Posted by surreality View Post
    I thought it rude and uncalled for. Scentimental could have corrected Rebewshka and Neurotic Scientist in a way that was more tactful and less condescending.
    Peace brother.

    Is that "tactful and less condescending" enough?

    BTW, not that it matters much, but it's "scentemental" not "scentimental."

    Last edited by scentemental; 20th January 2009 at 12:02 AM.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Castoreum

    Well, I went and edited the post to correct the obvious error which you so rudely pointed out.

    BTW, it was not my intention to "bluff" as you call it. Blame it on sleep deprivation, hitting books too hard, early onset senility or whatever, but I misread and was clearly speaking of another entirely different substance.

    Having said all that, and printed the retraction I will say that you are an extremely rude person with no tact whatsoever.

    On another forum (nothing to do with scents, etc.) I am a co - moderator and I would throw your ass out for speaking to any member like that.

    Thanks for the defense, Surreality.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Castoreum

    ...

    What Scentemental said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruggles View Post
    But do you eat beaver meat?
    Nope. Only chicken.


  16. #16

    Default Re: Castoreum

    That's some really mature co-moderator dialog.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Castoreum

    Holy cow, there is a lot of misinformation on that site.

    Example:

    http://www.profumo.it/perfume/aromat...oils/civet.htm

    Quote
    "The Civet (from the Arabic Zabad ) is a small African feline."

    The civit is not a feline at all.

    A lot of other pages talk about "cosmic energies" and such. (!?!?!)

    Anyway, if a lot of rationalization makes you feel better about killing animals so you can make or wear perfume, then that's your right. But it does not change the fact that they are products of cruelty.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Castoreum

    First of all, I want to apologize for the firestorm of controversy regarding castoreum and to anyone who has been offended in this thread.

    I thank all of you for your helpful input. I saw the Givaudan synthetic and the Profumo option but I was looking for a real, North American supplier.

    I missed out on the sale by a fellow Basenotes member, by just one day! So now I am left with the option of Gemlite on Ebay or Profumo, which is really expensive.

    Does anyone have any experience with Gemlite? I just read a negative review of their Castoreum and I'm wondering if it was from a member of Basenotes who could elucidate?
    Last edited by Pooki; 20th January 2009 at 07:48 PM.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Castoreum

    Quote Originally Posted by Neurotic Scientist View Post
    Holy cow, there is a lot of misinformation on that site.

    Example:

    http://www.profumo.it/perfume/aromat...oils/civet.htm

    Quote
    "The Civet (from the Arabic Zabad ) is a small African feline."

    The civit is not a feline at all.
    It is true and I apologise, I should have corrected this a long time ago, seing that complete scientific data on civet is published on our site (http://www.profumo.it/perfume/intern...ndex_civet.htm).
    From the pages linked from this address you can see that there is A LOT of information, rather than misinformation on our site.

    However this mistake is teaching me humility, I know pretty well that Civet "cat" as it is called, is a parent of the mongoose and not of the lion, but I overlooked correcting my old texts online from 98. Working alone on the contents of a 2000 pages site in 2 languages makes me liable of some shortcomings.

    I shall be grateful to fellow basenoters if they point out to me my errors. I am a specialist in animal scents and pheromone study, but I can err.

    I do not recall writing about cosmic energy, although cosmic energy is hard to deny. Probably it is a quote from a Patricia Davis text in the alphabet of scents (http://profumo.it/perfume/aromathera...abet_intro.htm). She is my preferred new age writer on aromatherapy.

    However the "feline" character of civet scent is quite obvious to me who worked in a circus in youth, and know the smell of the lion's cage.

    I shall correct the error as soon as I get to my office computer.

    Your humble perfumer
    AbdesSalaam Attar
    Last edited by Profumo; 21st January 2009 at 02:14 PM. Reason: misspelling

  20. #20

    Default Re: Castoreum

    Quote Originally Posted by Pooki View Post

    Does anyone have any experience with Gemlite? I just read a negative review of their Castoreum and I'm wondering if it was from a member of Basenotes who could elucidate?
    I reviewed the Gemlite, Givco, and authentic castoreum tincture made by another Yahoo group member.

    I bought some 12-ml samples from Gemlite a couple of months ago
    including the castoreum. It smells pleasant in liquid form and briefly
    on a paper strip, but doesn't have much of a drydown compared to a
    sample of castoreum tincture made by another group member, which
    persisted for over a week. Gemlite's material is smoother in the top,
    sweeter (particularly as it dries down), has less depth and is not
    nearly as animal as the homemade tincture.

    Compared to Castoreum Givco, the Gemlite is much darker in color,
    sweeter, less smoky, and not as lasting. Castoreum Givco smells similar to
    the real tincture, only cleaner.

    When my cats sniffed all 3 strips, they were fascinated by the
    homemade tincture, but not at all interested in the Gemlite or Givco
    materials.

    My conclusion is that the Gemlite is probably a fragrance oil.

  21. #21

    Default Re: Castoreum

    I am glad to let those who followed this thread know that I have not only corrected but completed the Civet text.
    You can read novel information never published previously, from my personal experience with Civet musk scent.
    http://www.profumo.it/perfume/aromat...oils/civet.htm
    AbdesSalaam Attar
    Composer Perfumer

  22. #22

    Default Re: Castoreum

    Quote Originally Posted by Profumo View Post
    I am glad to let those who followed this thread know that I have not only corrected but completed the Civet text.
    You can read novel information never published previously, from my personal experience with Civet musk scent.
    http://www.profumo.it/perfume/aromat...oils/civet.htm
    AbdesSalaam Attar
    Composer Perfumer
    I missed the fact that you were not only active on the forums but were replying in this very thread.

    I commend you for making the correction so quickly!

  23. #23

    Default Re: Castoreum

    Quote Originally Posted by Neurotic Scientist View Post
    I commend you for making the correction so quickly!
    I thank you for having pointed to me the error, and for having incited me to write a more complete and more interesting text on Civet.
    AbdesSalaam Attar
    Last edited by Profumo; 21st January 2009 at 02:20 PM.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Castoreum

    Quote Originally Posted by Pooki View Post
    First of all, I want to apologize for the firestorm of controversy regarding castoreum and to anyone who has been offended in this thread.

    I thank all of you for your helpful input. I saw the Givaudan synthetic and the Profumo option but I was looking for a real, North American supplier.

    I missed out on the sale by a fellow Basenotes member, by just one day! So now I am left with the option of Gemlite on Ebay or Profumo, which is really expensive.

    Does anyone have any experience with Gemlite? I just read a negative review of their Castoreum and I'm wondering if it was from a member of Basenotes who could elucidate?
    actually nevermind I learned the hard way too...
    Last edited by smellyliquid; 21st January 2009 at 08:17 PM.

  25. #25

    Default Re: Castoreum

    Quote Originally Posted by smellyliquid View Post
    actually nevermind I learned the hard way too...
    And why let other people waste their money? I was kindly contacted by some people who bought the Gemlite Castoreum and was told it is foul/adulterated/off....

  26. #26

    Default Re: Castoreum

    I did get some castoreum oil from gemlite after contactting the owner who ressured me that he got it from the leather processing industry. I have nothing to compare it to for the time being but I am somewhat suspicious of its veracity. The other oils i gor from gemlite are even more susipicious. I have more samples on order from better known suppliers and I will figure out more when I get them.

  27. #27

    Default Re: Castoreum

    Yay!!!! for naturals. The scents of civet, castoreum, musk, etc...add such unique nuances to a scent, that the synthetics could never replicate.

    Kudos to you Scentemental for clarifying the situation. I also agree wholeheartedly as to the reformulations of the classics. I would always take vintage over 'newer'. My vintage No. 5, Femme, My Sin, Arpege, etc...could never be matched by their modern 'reformulations. So I concur with you entirely.
    Quand on boit l'eau, il faut penser sa source

  28. #28

    Default Re: Castoreum

    Quote Originally Posted by Pooki View Post
    Hello,

    Anybody know a reliable supplier for Castoreum? I've been trying in vain to find one with authentic absolute in the US.

    Thanks!!!
    Beaver Castor is a leftover product of the trapping /fur industry. Many trapping supply houses sell pure dry castor and also the oil from the sac on the beaver.

    I ordered some dry castor from a place called kishels. It was around $4.00 per ounce. Great to work with!

    If you want to get really crazy, they have all kinds of Indole delights. How about some Red Fox urine or that of a Woodchuck? They have all kinds of glands too: Bobcat, Wolf, Otter and Coyote.

    My advice, stick to the castor.
    http://www.kishelscents.com/COMERSUS...?idCategory=32

  29. #29

    Default Re: Castoreum

    Thanks for the great tip! I just ordered Castor liquid and Green Castor, should be very interesting!! I am going to compare it to my tinctures when they arrive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aghora View Post
    Beaver Castor is a leftover product of the trapping /fur industry. Many trapping supply houses sell pure dry castor and also the oil from the sac on the beaver.

    I ordered some dry castor from a place called kishels. It was around $4.00 per ounce. Great to work with!

    If you want to get really crazy, they have all kinds of Indole delights. How about some Red Fox urine or that of a Woodchuck? They have all kinds of glands too: Bobcat, Wolf, Otter and Coyote.

    My advice, stick to the castor.
    http://www.kishelscents.com/COMERSUS...?idCategory=32

  30. #30

    Default Re: Castoreum

    So I bought the green castor and castor oil and I have to say wow. PUNGENT, meaty.

    I put some castor oil in perfumer's alcohol and I am really fascinated by how the aroma is changing and mellowing over the past few days.

    I think I am going to let the green castor age a bit and continue to play with the castor oil. Such an interesting scent! Not really getting "leather" yet.

    As a side note, I bought birch tar about the same time and I'm not getting much "leather" from that either.

    Sadly, I haven't received any tinctures yet, having trouble getting a supplier to ship to me :P.

  31. #31

    Default Re: Castoreum

    Have you at least tried the Castoreum Givco 116 synthetic that Perfumer's Apprentice sells, just to compare?

  32. #32

    Default Re: Castoreum

    HI Pooki,

    Yes, that is the real deal castorum. I have not tried to oil from the oil sac yet. Is it as strong as the dried glands?

  33. #33

    Default Re: Castoreum

    I actually didn't get any sac oil, I got green castor and castor oil. I think I'm going to try the dried castor now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aghora View Post
    HI Pooki,

    Yes, that is the real deal castorum. I have not tried to oil from the oil sac yet. Is it as strong as the dried glands?

  34. #34

    Default Re: Castoreum

    I haven't tried the synthetic. I'm still building a different set of sources for me to compare.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neurotic Scientist View Post
    Have you at least tried the Castoreum Givco 116 synthetic that Perfumer's Apprentice sells, just to compare?

  35. #35

    Default Re: Castoreum

    This scent is amazing! I've been letting the Castoreum develop in perfumer's alcohol and I put some on a scent strip today. WOW. It's so interesting, it smells like a leather bound book, hints of offal, cocoa and peppery berry notes.

    Thanks again for your excellent suggestion, I am going to experiment with some of their other offerings as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aghora View Post
    Beaver Castor is a leftover product of the trapping /fur industry. Many trapping supply houses sell pure dry castor and also the oil from the sac on the beaver.

    I ordered some dry castor from a place called kishels. It was around $4.00 per ounce. Great to work with!

    If you want to get really crazy, they have all kinds of Indole delights. How about some Red Fox urine or that of a Woodchuck? They have all kinds of glands too: Bobcat, Wolf, Otter and Coyote.

    My advice, stick to the castor.
    http://www.kishelscents.com/COMERSUS...?idCategory=32

  36. #36

    Default Re: Castoreum

    Quote Originally Posted by Pooki View Post
    This scent is amazing! I've been letting the Castoreum develop in perfumer's alcohol and I put some on a scent strip today. WOW. It's so interesting, it smells like a leather bound book, hints of offal, cocoa and peppery berry notes.

    Thanks again for your excellent suggestion, I am going to experiment with some of their other offerings as well.
    May I recommend the muskrat glands? It will give you a very beautiful soft musk.

    I used to have a good source for that material here in the Netherlands, but not anymore, so I'm very interested in that site. However when I calculated the shipping costs it almost made me cry... O well, I will try elsewhere.
    No guru, not method, no teacher
    Just you and I and nature

  37. #37

    Default Re: Castoreum

    Domingo, I have a bottle of muskrat glands and also fox glands(very stinky) from Kishels. I can probably get the Muskrat glands to you with cheaper mail options.
    Let me know, as I don't need it.

  38. #38

    Default Re: Castoreum

    That would be great! I will PM you tomorrow, okay?
    No guru, not method, no teacher
    Just you and I and nature

  39. #39

    Default Re: Castoreum

    I am interested to hear if any of you have done anything more with these tinctures. I've ordered some glands (various) from Kishel's but am interested if any of them other than beaver castor and muskrat have any potential.

    And here is some information on castor:

    http://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/874488
    Last edited by JonB; 9th March 2009 at 09:13 PM.

  40. #40

    Default Re: Castoreum

    domingo, did you ever order some?

    i am in the same position.

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