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  1. #31
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    Default Re: Blue Lotus Absolute

    Bill, thank you so much. That was really clear and really helpful. Thank you for giving such a careful response, and one that makes a lot of sense of something that was previously clear as mud. This is where I'm very conscious of how much I don't know. I was very definitely on the 'arts' side at school, and this is the closest I've come to chemistry in the best part of 30 years. (My poor, benighted teacher would be astonished to recognise me here).

    Thank you for the explanation, and I shall concentrate on trying to understand the make up of things and what they're doing in my mixes more.

    (In the meantime, I've spent today making a scent for my Oscar Wilde-esque nephew who wanted something decadent and dirty, a more developed version of that oudh experiment I started out with. My whole house now smells very exotic!)

  2. #32

    Default Re: Blue Lotus Absolute

    Thanks Bill, for the lesson.

  3. #33
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    Default Re: Blue Lotus Absolute

    Wondering how everyone has been doing with the blue lotus.... i know a few great sources and have been working towards a video on youtube.... i have six different samples of blue lotus and 4 that are fake or reconstituted... i use in a sacred blend which is a big hit. and make a contemporary attar that I love....
    i have seen in these post much on its scent.... intoxicating, bubblegum incense.... deep water flower scent with a fairly sold drydown....

  4. #34

    Default Re: Blue Lotus Absolute

    Quote Originally Posted by berryzflow View Post
    Wondering how everyone has been doing with the blue lotus.... i know a few great sources and have been working towards a video on youtube.... i have six different samples of blue lotus and 4 that are fake or reconstituted... i use in a sacred blend which is a big hit. and make a contemporary attar that I love....
    i have seen in these post much on its scent.... intoxicating, bubblegum incense.... deep water flower scent with a fairly sold drydown....
    Source?

  5. #35

    Default Re: Blue Lotus Absolute

    I am curious about how people are using lotus as well. I have samples of both blue and pink from Eden and even diluted to 10% they smell really pungent, almost.. rotten? And not pleasant at all. I don't really get any sweetness or floral. Do I just need to dilute it even more?

  6. #36
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    Default Re: Blue Lotus Absolute

    just see message.. i have several if interested

  7. #37
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    Default Re: Blue Lotus Absolute

    Quote Originally Posted by alleria View Post
    I am curious about how people are using lotus as well. I have samples of both blue and pink from Eden and even diluted to 10% they smell really pungent, almost.. rotten? And not pleasant at all. I don't really get any sweetness or floral. Do I just need to dilute it even more?
    Who do you have the lotus from? the pink can be heavy and needs good dilution, but the blue is floral and has a sweeter and or high vibe note

  8. #38

    Default Re: Blue Lotus Absolute

    I vaguely recall seeing some research many years ago saying the ancient Egyptians used Blue Lotus as aphrodisiac. I remember it was the flower used, but not how it was used. That research probably exists somewhere on the internet, and might be worth looking for.

  9. #39
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    Default Re: Blue Lotus Absolute

    Quote Originally Posted by FollyFlick View Post
    That's the problem, isn't it - if you don't use it, it's a bit like putting a beautiful painting in a safe. You may know it's there, but you're not actually enjoying it. I'm thinking something very, very simple, just to support it. Or maybe you wear it on it's own and enjoy like that (until it runs out!)
    try combining equal parts hedione, galaxolide, iso-e-super
    20 parts the above
    Add: 1 part blue/pink lotus


    This formula should, hypothetically make a lasting blue lotus scent
    the hedione, galaxolide, iso-e-super - will remain relatively silent/in the background
    M

  10. #40

    Default Re: Blue Lotus Absolute

    My favorite blue lotus, and my favorite lotus of any kind, is the blue lotus from Enfleurage in New York. The stuff's super dear ($100/2 ml.) but the smell is so transcendent...
    Thank you mattmeleg for the blend idea. Will give it a whirl.

  11. #41
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    Default Re: Blue Lotus Absolute

    Quote Originally Posted by abbaris View Post
    I vaguely recall seeing some research many years ago saying the ancient Egyptians used Blue Lotus as aphrodisiac. I remember it was the flower used, but not how it was used. That research probably exists somewhere on the internet, and might be worth looking for.
    Yes this appears to be very true.... they had ancient ways of enflueraging and some crude type of infusion distillation.... there are remains.

  12. #42

    Default Re: Blue Lotus Absolute

    pink lotus isn't very pleasing to me. but really well collected Blue Lotus is the most wonderful scent. Okay, one of, but it's rareness and expense suggest that a great acquisition of the flower's abs., is a luxious experience. It's between 600-800 an ounce for Indian and about 90 a ml for Sir Lankian. I find the Indian better for perfumery, it has more guts while the other is more to enjoy by itself, a spritual experience in a flower. And it ages wonderfully though I'm sure it has an expiration date, it seems to be the same two years later.

    Not sure about the head space, but all living flowers will give off a different chemical profile than a killed one. We work with killed plants, some of us animals, etc. A lot of death in perfumery, haha, and don't start with ACs' petro origins. I personally find this fact intresting, but it doesn't affect the way I produce.

    I use it as a sacraficial floral for gardenia blends and tuberrose. I also use it with ouds for attars.

    JoeV

  13. #43

    Default Re: Blue Lotus Absolute

    Where do you find blue lotus absolute? I purchased mine from Enfleurage in New York and it's glorious if not cheap.

  14. #44

    Default Re: Blue Lotus Absolute

    Quote Originally Posted by James Peterson View Post
    Where do you find blue lotus absolute? I purchased mine from Enfleurage in New York and it's glorious if not cheap.
    I've been having a hard time finding authentic Blue Lotus/Waterlilly (Nymphea Cerulea) - and just for the sake of clarity, there is no such thing as Blue Nelumbo Nucifera: when you're discussing other 'lotus' plants, like pink or white, you are reffering to an entirely different plant, Nelumbo nucifera.

    Blue Lotus is constantly sold as a fake, obviosuly all the indian sites that sell it are fake essential oil suppliers (Like: allinexporters.com, essentialoilscompany.com, onlynaturalessentialoil.com, rkessentialoil.com), but it's hard to tell when higher quality brands are selling a fragrance oil.

    Having a hard time finding a reputable source for it. Prices like $150/10ml seem the usual run, I usually see it for about $15-20/ml but the expense to test out all these compnaies adds up. I've been finding that most of the product sold as blue lotus are very "perfumery" smelling.

    The last sample I recieved seems to be decent quality - it is a watery, peppery, floral scent that isn't light, and lasts on the skin for about 5 hours. Comparing it to other versions is hard as they are all so different. How can this one product be this hard to obtain?

    If anyone knows of good suppliers or has a test for this, I'd be greatful. Thanks!

  15. #45
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    Default Re: Blue Lotus Absolute

    I suggest you make this yourself, if you can.
    I made this page for you.

    Nymphaea Cerulea headspace GC by Roman Kaiser.jpg
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  16. #46

    Default Re: Blue Lotus Absolute

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    I suggest you make this yourself if you can.
    I made this page for you.

    Nymphaea Cerulea headspace GC by Roman Kaiser.jpg

    WOW, PK, this is amazing! I'm often more attracted tot he headspace of a flower than its' absolute. Unless I was using it for religious purposes, such as an attar. I did find a supplier and bought 100 grams off of them.

    Joe

  17. #47

    Default Re: Blue Lotus Absolute

    Quote Originally Posted by mewmew View Post
    I've been having a hard time finding authentic Blue Lotus/Waterlilly (Nymphea Cerulea) - and just for the sake of clarity, there is no such thing as Blue Nelumbo Nucifera: when you're discussing other 'lotus' plants, like pink or white, you are reffering to an entirely different plant, Nelumbo nucifera.

    Blue Lotus is constantly sold as a fake, obviosuly all the indian sites that sell it are fake essential oil suppliers (Like: allinexporters.com, essentialoilscompany.com, onlynaturalessentialoil.com, rkessentialoil.com), but it's hard to tell when higher quality brands are selling a fragrance oil.

    Having a hard time finding a reputable source for it. Prices like $150/10ml seem the usual run, I usually see it for about $15-20/ml but the expense to test out all these compnaies adds up. I've been finding that most of the product sold as blue lotus are very "perfumery" smelling.

    The last sample I recieved seems to be decent quality - it is a watery, peppery, floral scent that isn't light, and lasts on the skin for about 5 hours. Comparing it to other versions is hard as they are all so different. How can this one product be this hard to obtain?

    If anyone knows of good suppliers or has a test for this, I'd be greatful. Thanks!

    ugh, if I ever see the word allinexporters.com I'll puke. Amazon was nice enough to refund me all of my allinexporters.com purchases once I told them that they were selling a natural product that's been banned by the FDA right on amaon. haha.

  18. #48

    Default Re: Blue Lotus Absolute

    botanicessence used to have it. They have provided good quality for me so far.

  19. #49

    Default Re: Blue Lotus Absolute

    Thanks so much for posting that! I greatly appreciate it. I will try to play with that for my own purposes.
    Overall, I practice natural perfumery for sales and so I'm trying to find a natural source of the product as well.

  20. #50
    New Member Vuardhu's Avatar
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    Default Re: Blue Lotus Absolute

    Enfleurage doesn't seem to be carrying a Blue Lotus currently, only a Pink; nor does White Lotus Aromatics have a Blue. The only other non-suspect site I found is : https://www.lotus-house.com/blue-lot...ntial-oil.html in Thailand. Has anyone purchased from this company? Their knowledge and prices seem comparable.

  21. #51

    Default Re: Blue Lotus Absolute

    Unfortunately, I've never done business with this company. Do they insist on large quantities? The stuff, as I'm sure you know, is super expensive. I think I paid $100 for two ml. But the stuff is mysterious and enchanting.

  22. #52
    New Member Vuardhu's Avatar
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    Default Re: Blue Lotus Absolute

    They range from 5ml to 100ml quantities, and you can request larger amounts. $153.30 for 5ml of the Blue Lotus … this seems reasonable compared with what I've seen on this thread, and with shipping it'll hit about $200. But I'm not about to take the plunge on this one until I find out more. I've been lucky, I found Eden Botanicals first, by chance, looking for Palo Santo wood pieces, and then this forum … and now I'm hooked on finding exotics.

  23. #53

    Default Re: Blue Lotus Absolute

    Those do sound like good prices, if you can call it that.

  24. #54
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    Default Re: Blue Lotus Absolute

    Quote Originally Posted by Vuardhu View Post
    They range from 5ml to 100ml quantities, and you can request larger amounts. $153.30 for 5ml of the Blue Lotus this seems reasonable compared with what I've seen on this thread, and with shipping it'll hit about $200. But I'm not about to take the plunge on this one until I find out more. I've been lucky, I found Eden Botanicals first, by chance, looking for Palo Santo wood pieces, and then this forum and now I'm hooked on finding exotics.

    this material is beautiful and a Specialty of mine. i have several varieties.. and for sure in the last 7 years have for sure asked for more and we learn about.
    you are welcome to connect with me....

  25. #55

    Default Re: Blue Lotus Absolute

    delete

  26. #56

    Default Re: Blue Lotus Absolute

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Roberts View Post
    Headspace (the analysis of the aromachemicals coming off of the flower) can be a useful source of information, understanding, or ideas but can be hard to use directly for recreation.

    For example, let's say I make a 50/50 mixture of a musk and of linalool.

    I could put it on a strip and if I had the equipment, measure the "headspace" from that strip shortly after I placed the mixture on it. It would show very little musk, as the musk is evaporating only very slowly, spread out over hundreds of hours, and a lot of linalool, as all the linalool will be coming off in a much shorter time. So in the headspace the ratio would strongly, strongly favor the linalool.

    If I tried "recreating" the mixture by using the same proportions found in the headspace GC/MS, I'd probably be making it as 95% or more linalool, 5% or less musk, and I'd be very far from the mixture.
    Well, committing two potential sins here: replying to myself, and necroposting.

    The thread came up today and I didn't realize it was old. I was very glad to see Paul's post again: what a knowledge drop that was, and I'd forgotten it. So, I'm very glad adammaba bumped the thread.

    I'm replying to myself because now it's on the front page again, others may read my old post again and I'm not too satisfied with what I wrote on limitations of building from a GC/MS.

    Another reason, utterly vital I now think but hadn't realized back then, that GC/MS is often so frustrating for re-creation is that so many published GC-MS are garbage (I believe) for whatever reason.

    I had a frustrating day yesterday going through a number of jasmine sambac GC/MS's looking for what was in common to all and therefore must be necessary to jasmine, what the proportions commonly were between key components and the amounts, was there anything I needed to buy that I hadn't already, and so forth.

    The conclusion from that set would be that the ONLY materials in common from one jasmine sambac to another that possibly could be needed for use in a perfume are benzyl acetate 4+%, geranyllinalool 0.4+%, methyl anthranilate 0.5+%, indole 0.1+%, and (Z)-3-Hexenyl benzoate 1.5+% all being as a percentage of whatever percentage you'd want jasmine sambac absolute at.

    So in other words if you would have used jasmine sambac absolute at 10% of formulation, then benzyl acetate would need to be at least 0.4%, etc.

    (Linalool was also always in common but often so low that most times it couldn't be relevant because you'd have much more already for other reasons.)

    Jasmone, farnesene, p-cresol, methyl jasmonate, benzyl alcohol, etc? All could be zero according to the GC/MS's! What?!?

    Of course that is untrue or I absolutely believe it is. I need to buy (Z)-3-Hexenyl benzoate but I really don't believe those 5 materials will give anything remotely close to jasmine sambac, I even question that anything recognizable as jasmine sambac can be made from just them.

    In other words, various of those GC/MS's were omitting vital components. So trying to re-create from them could be doomed to failure.

    In some cases it may be obvious that a given GC/MS is really, really detailed and sensitive, going down to traces, and then that would not apply. That seems to be the case with Paul's, above.

    Now coming back to Blue Lotus: I believe Paul brought out a really important point on page 1 and would really recommend going back to that page if interested in this note, as well as seeing his GC/MS's on this page.

    The real absolute is horribly expensive, I have never bought it, and inexpensive products are all fake.
    Last edited by Bill Roberts; 10th July 2019 at 10:54 PM.

  27. #57

    Default Re: Blue Lotus Absolute

    Not sure if this has been said before but just an FYI, when doing a headspace recreation, I learned from S&C's Facebook page that in order to convert the gas phase (headspace analysis is evaluation of the air) to equivalent liquid phase (what you make), you have to do a few calculations to get the corresponding % liquid in your accord.

    First, you need to record the Vapor Pressure (VP) for each material (on TGSC under properties). It's easiest to just make them in a column. Next, divide Headspace % / VP for each line. Then, sum those at the bottom. Then you must scale the quotients to equal 100% by dividing each HS%/VP by the sum.

    So, it's (HS%/VP)[each material] / sum(HS%/VP)[total]. Sum that final column and it should equal 100%. In the S&C post, P. Kraft disregarded any materials that were below 0.1% or so, so up to you really on that.

    Here is a snip of a rose headspace calculation of mine, the bold item is the sum you divide each line in the right column by:
    HS.JPG
    Here us the link to the post https://www.facebook.com/ScentChemis...7006311326382/

    Thanks P. Kraft!

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    I suggest you make this yourself, if you can.
    I made this page for you.

    Nymphaea Cerulea headspace GC by Roman Kaiser.jpg


  28. #58

    Default Re: Blue Lotus Absolute

    Thank you runstile, that is tremendously useful.

    I had known a great deal of accomodation was needed but I always did it with guesswork. I'm sure hand adjustment will still always be needed but what you have posted should get to a much better starting place much faster!

  29. #59

    Default Re: Blue Lotus Absolute

    The stuff is ok in my opinion. It kinda has a rubbery aspect to it, especially neat. I got some samples for a very reasonable price at libertynatural.com I think it's only special because its special price really. It would be cool to find some nice accords with it, but it has such a strange smell. It really sticks out, I dont think it could find much of a place in modern perfumery. Just my opinion.
    Last edited by Aromas Del Cielo; 12th July 2019 at 01:52 AM.

  30. #60

    Default Re: Blue Lotus Absolute

    Quote Originally Posted by runstile View Post
    Not sure if this has been said before but just an FYI, when doing a headspace recreation, I learned from S&C's Facebook page that in order to convert the gas phase (headspace analysis is evaluation of the air) to equivalent liquid phase (what you make), you have to do a few calculations to get the corresponding % liquid in your accord.

    First, you need to record the Vapor Pressure (VP) for each material (on TGSC under properties). It's easiest to just make them in a column. Next, divide Headspace % / VP for each line. Then, sum those at the bottom. Then you must scale the quotients to equal 100% by dividing each HS%/VP by the sum.
    I'm not sure why that never clicked for me before, but your explanation was that "light bulb moment" for me. Thanks!




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