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  1. #1

    Default Did Pierre Bourdon create Green Irish Tweed?

    Does anyone in the forum know for sure who in fact created Green Irish Tweed? As I'm sure many of you know, Luca Turin alleges in his book "Perfumes The Guide" that Pierre Bourdon created it, but so far, Turin is the only person I know of who makes this claim. Creed claims that Olivier Creed created it. Does anyone know, and if so, where do you get your information?

    I think GIT is one of the all-time great men's fragrances, which has a strong resemblance to the later Cool Water, and I'm interested in knowing for sure who created it.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Did Pierre Bourdon create Green Irish Tweed?

    Quote Originally Posted by shamu1 View Post
    Does anyone in the forum know for sure who in fact created Green Irish Tweed? As I'm sure many of you know, Luca Turin alleges in his book "Perfumes The Guide" that Pierre Bourdon created it, but so far, Turin is the only person I know of who makes this claim. Creed claims that Olivier Creed created it. Does anyone know, and if so, where do you get your information?

    I think GIT is one of the all-time great men's fragrances, which has a strong resemblance to the later Cool Water, and I'm interested in knowing for sure who created it.
    i think this particular issue has been discussed ad nausem. Not so long ago, a member of basenotes had the opportunity to interview Erwin Creed and he asked the very same question you are asking now. Pull up a search with the name Pierre Bourdon, and I think you ought to be able to find the thread where Erwin answers your question.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Did Pierre Bourdon create Green Irish Tweed?

    Thank you. I'm new to the forum, so I wasn't aware this was already discussed. I'll check it out.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Did Pierre Bourdon create Green Irish Tweed?

    Quote Originally Posted by shamu1 View Post
    Does anyone in the forum know for sure who in fact created Green Irish Tweed? As I'm sure many of you know, Luca Turin alleges in his book "Perfumes The Guide" that Pierre Bourdon created it, but so far, Turin is the only person I know of who makes this claim. Creed claims that Olivier Creed created it. Does anyone know, and if so, where do you get your information?
    The answer is so simple. Why didn't somebody just give it to you? - Yes, Pierre Bourdon did!

    Also M. Edwards lists him as the perfumer. And as Creed press has been responsible for countless rumors and lies in the past, the experts mentioned before are more trustworthy, to say the least. I hear that Creed have meanwhile conceded that Pierre Bourdon was the perfumer 'guided by' Olivier Creed. These things are tough to concede when you claim a certain movie star has worn GIT long before it was created. I can see that.

    Similar stories, but adding myth to the English throne: the ones on Royal English Leather which must have been created in the 20th century, and most likely a long time after Tabac Blond, Cuir de Russie and The Knize 10 were on the market. When finally the truth will be uncovered you wonder why they would deny the talent of others for so long. Quite a few Creed perfumes show that some most respectable perfumers, maybe among those well known, have created them.
    Last edited by narcus; 14th May 2009 at 05:37 PM.
    'Il mondo dei profumi č un universo senza limiti: una fraganza puo rievocare sensazioni, luoghi, persone o ancora condurre in uno spazio di nuove dimensioni emozionali' L. V.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Did Pierre Bourdon create Green Irish Tweed?

    Thanks narcus for showing the true Basenote spirit. I also wanted to know. Why is there a need to direct a newbie to do a multiple search when a simple yes will suffice? Be kind to those new to the forum.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Did Pierre Bourdon create Green Irish Tweed?

    Quote Originally Posted by narcus View Post
    Similar stories, but adding myth to the English throne: the ones on Royal English Leather which must have been created in the 20th century, and most likely a long time after Tabac Blond, Cuir de Russie and The Knize 10 were on the market.
    I don't care when REL was created but where is your evidence for this claim?
    Last edited by surreality; 14th May 2009 at 02:54 PM.
    Seek not the favor of the multitude; it is seldom got by honest and lawful means. But seek the testimony of few; and number not voices, but weigh them. - Immanuel Kant

  7. #7

    Default Re: Did Pierre Bourdon create Green Irish Tweed?

    Quote Originally Posted by xmen View Post
    Thanks narcus for showing the true Basenote spirit. I also wanted to know. Why is there a need to direct a newbie to do a multiple search when a simple yes will suffice? Be kind to those new to the forum.
    Xmen, you almost made me blush!

    I didn't want to go into the details, but neither has the question been discussed 'ad nauseam' in the past twelve month, nor would ccck's advice to search for 'Pierre Bourdon' bring any useful result within reasonable time. I happened to remember that zztopp called 'Erwin' and that's how I found ‘the answer': Erwin Creed on Phone . That was 11.5 months ago, or six months before you joined us yourself ccck ! A belated welcome, at this point, and welcome to Shamu also! Only now do I realize that this were your 68th, and 19th posts respectively.

    Quote Originally Posted by surreality View Post
    I don't care when REL was created but where is your evidence for this claim?
    Would I have needed to say "when finally the truth will be uncovered...." if I had the evidence?

    Last edited by narcus; 14th May 2009 at 03:29 PM.
    'Il mondo dei profumi č un universo senza limiti: una fraganza puo rievocare sensazioni, luoghi, persone o ancora condurre in uno spazio di nuove dimensioni emozionali' L. V.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Did Pierre Bourdon create Green Irish Tweed?

    Quote Originally Posted by surreality View Post
    I don't care when REL was created but where is your evidence for this claim?
    Everyone should start with historian and fellow Basenoter the_good_life's post on this very issue about the provenance and heritage of Creed fragrances:

    the_good_life's post on Creed as an essentially a middle of the 20th century fragrance house (see post #13

    In two years of solid research on my book on perfumery, and in all the reading I have done over the last decade, I have yet to come across one source that confirms independently of Creed's claims that their fragrances date back to the nineteenth century and that the were purveyors to royalty or other persons of note. I would like to be enlightened with evidence to the contrary confirming the purported nineteenth century provenance and heritage of their fragrances as much as anyone else, but I am not holding my breath. For the moment, it's quite clear that the_good_life, as he invariably is, is spot on in his informed analysis of this issue.

    scentemental

    Last edited by scentemental; 14th May 2009 at 03:39 PM.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Did Pierre Bourdon create Green Irish Tweed?

    Quote Originally Posted by narcus View Post
    Xmen, you almost made me blush!

    I didn't want to go into the details, but neither has the question been discussed 'ad nauseam' in the past twelve month, nor would ccck's advice to search for 'Pierre Bourdon' bring any useful result within reasonable time. I happened to remember that zztopp called 'Erwin' and that's how I found ‘the answer': Erwin Creed on Phone . That was 11.5 months ago, or six months before you joined us yourself ccck ! A belated welcome, at this point, and welcome to Shamu also! Only now do I realize that this were your 68th, and 19th posts respectively.

    Would I have needed to say "when finally the truth will be uncovered...." if I had the evidence?

    Narcus, "the answer" you have given is not backed up by the source you have used! In the thread to which you refer regarding the conversation with Erwin Creed, zztop posted this:

    6. GIT/Bourdon issue. Bourdon and Olivier Creed are longtime friends and discuss perfumery ideas. GIT was wholly composed by Olivier Creed but there were discussions with Bourdon on certain elements like as in Himalaya for example. When Olivier Creed discussed with Bourdon an early draft of Himalaya, he suggested the addition of a gunpowder note which made it into the final composition. Many perfumers discuss and share ideas, not just these two. Erwin Creed has such a friendship with Romano Ricci and they bounce ideas off each other.


    Last edited by hirch_duckfinder; 14th May 2009 at 03:54 PM.
    "Don’t try to be original. Be simple. Be good technically, and if there is something in you, it will come out. ” - Henri Matisse.

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  10. #10

    Default Re: Did Pierre Bourdon create Green Irish Tweed?

    Quote Originally Posted by scentemental View Post
    Everyone should start with historian and fellow Basenoter the_good_life's post on this very issue about the provenance and heritage of Creed fragrances:

    the_good_life's post on Creed as an essentially a middle of the 20th century fragrance house (see post #13

    In two years of solid research on my book on perfumery, and in all the reading I have done over the last decade, I have yet to come across one source that confirms independently of Creed's claims that their fragrances date back to the nineteenth century and that the were purveyors to royalty or other persons of note. I would like to be enlightened with evidence to the contrary confirming the purported nineteenth century provenance and heritage of their fragrances as much as anyone else, but I am not holding my breath. For the moment, it's quite clear that the_good_life, as he invariably is, is spot on in his informed analysis of this issue.

    scentemental

    I agree with your general comments about the issue scentemental, however I would just point out that a lack of positive evidence is not the same as negative evidence.

    Creed could of course, clear it up for good if they would show some receipts, parerperwork, order records etc.......
    "Don’t try to be original. Be simple. Be good technically, and if there is something in you, it will come out. ” - Henri Matisse.

    "Wear R de Capucci" - Hirch Duckfinder

    reviews

  11. #11

    Default Re: Did Pierre Bourdon create Green Irish Tweed?

    Quote Originally Posted by hirch_duckfinder View Post
    Narcus, "the answer" you have given is not backed up by the source you have used! In the thread to which you refer regarding the conversation with Erwin Creed, zztop posted this:

    6. GIT/Bourdon issue. Bourdon and Olivier Creed are longtime friends and discuss perfumery ideas. GIT was wholly composed by Olivier Creed but there were discussions with Bourdon on certain elements like as in Himalaya for example. When Olivier Creed discussed with Bourdon an early draft of Himalaya, he suggested the addition of a gunpowder note which made it into the final composition. Many perfumers discuss and share ideas, not just these two. Erwin Creed has such a friendship with Romano Ricci and they bounce ideas off each other.


    Yes, I am aware of this. Please read the whole thread. I didn't quote zztopp's account item #6 only.
    Last edited by narcus; 14th May 2009 at 04:17 PM.
    'Il mondo dei profumi č un universo senza limiti: una fraganza puo rievocare sensazioni, luoghi, persone o ancora condurre in uno spazio di nuove dimensioni emozionali' L. V.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Did Pierre Bourdon create Green Irish Tweed?

    Quote Originally Posted by scentemental View Post
    Everyone should start with historian and fellow Basenoter the_good_life's post on this very issue about the provenance and heritage of Creed fragrances:

    the_good_life's post on Creed as an essentially a middle of the 20th century fragrance house (see post #13

    In two years of solid research on my book on perfumery, and in all the reading I have done over the last decade, I have yet to come across one source that confirms independently of Creed's claims that their fragrances date back to the nineteenth century and that the were purveyors to royalty or other persons of note. I would like to be enlightened with evidence to the contrary confirming the purported nineteenth century provenance and heritage of their fragrances as much as anyone else, but I am not holding my breath. For the moment, it's quite clear that the_good_life, as he invariably is, is spot on in his informed analysis of this issue.

    scentemental

    Forgive me for asking here, but is your book currently in print or still a work in development?

  13. #13

    Default Re: Did Pierre Bourdon create Green Irish Tweed?

    Quote Originally Posted by narcus View Post
    Yes, I am aware of this. Please read the whole thread. I didn't quote zztopp's account item #6 only.
    Well reading that thread would make me tend to give the answer "no" rather than "yes". Not sure how you extract from that thread that Bourdon is the creator?

    I don't know the real answer, I'm just talking about interpretation of the source here.

    By the way - if the history of Creed IS all fabrication (which I think it is not) - you have to admit that it is a brilliant bit of low cost, highly effective marketing. Genius. And basically no more dishonest than most fragrance houses who like to infer that Mr. Versace made the perfume with crushed rose petals and havanas etc....
    Last edited by hirch_duckfinder; 14th May 2009 at 04:30 PM.
    "Don’t try to be original. Be simple. Be good technically, and if there is something in you, it will come out. ” - Henri Matisse.

    "Wear R de Capucci" - Hirch Duckfinder

    reviews

  14. #14

    Default Re: Did Pierre Bourdon create Green Irish Tweed?

    Quote Originally Posted by hirch_duckfinder View Post
    I agree with your general comments about the issue scentemental, however I would just point out that a lack of positive evidence is not the same as negative evidence.

    Creed could of course, clear it up for good if they would show some receipts, parerperwork, order records etc.......
    I would have thought that such an illustrious pedigree would have left some or at least one piece of independently verifiable information in the public realm, but it seems the only evidence of Creed's illustrious pedigree is in their private family vaults and the only answer to this mystery of verifiable, historical evidence is in the hands of Messrs. Creed. How appropriate. How sad.

    To return this discussion to the original issue, I think how much Pierre Bourdon had to do with the creation of Green Irish Tweed could be clarified by asking Luca Turin--who seems quite certain that he had a lot to do with it--what he based his claim on with regard to this issue. Clearly, he felt he was on solid enough ground to state it in print.

    Quote Originally Posted by scentsitivity View Post
    Forgive me for asking here, but is your book currently in print or still a work in development?
    Work in development. Thanks for asking.


    Last edited by scentemental; 14th May 2009 at 04:49 PM.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Did Pierre Bourdon create Green Irish Tweed?

    Bourdon also created Cool Water and continued to be "friends" with Oliver. This fact alone leads me to believe that Bourdon had a heavy hand in GITs creation.
    Last edited by manicboy; 14th May 2009 at 05:20 PM.
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  16. #16

    Default Re: Did Pierre Bourdon create Green Irish Tweed?

    Quote Originally Posted by scentemental View Post


    To return this discussion to the original issue, I think how much Pierre Bourdon had to do with the creation of Green Irish Tweed could be clarified by asking Luca Turin--who seems quite certain that he had a lot to do with it--what he based his claim on with regard to this issue. Clearly, he felt he was on solid enough ground to state it in print.

    Before things (again) get out of hand...At this point in time I have a more direct access to Creed than Luca Turin does. He got the GIT-Creed info from Michael Edwards, and Michael Edwards got his from .... ?

    All my information is straight from the horse's mouth, that is Erwin Creed. Maybe someone should talk to Bourdon...now that he's retired and all he may say something, if there's anything to be said. Nowhere else will you find the information that the gunpowder note in Himalaya was recommended by Bourdon. It all depends on the questions you ask...garbage in, garbage out. I happen to ask inquisitive questions and Erwin Creed has been willing to answer questions so far. I will be talking to him again soon...but its not just me who has access to him. He visits many Creed counters a number of times a year...the Sniffapalooza folks are local and get to meet him in person multiple times per year. However they are at fault for asking him generic focus-group questions while my questions go quite a bit further than that and Erwin Creed gladly obliges whenever he can.

    I don't find it hard to believe that the Creed family can be friends with Bourdon ..why can't it be true? Its well known that the Nina Ricci and Creed families are long time friends. As to the question of who did what...can we be really sure that Polge is creating all current Chanel fragrances? Who's really behind the recent Guerlains? Where are the Serge Lutens fragrances coming from? As many of us who have academic/research experience can attest, most of the times its the junior lab workers who crank out the results while the lab director or department head gets all the credit. I guess direction counts for something as well.
    Last edited by zztopp; 14th May 2009 at 05:34 PM.
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  17. #17

    Default Re: Did Pierre Bourdon create Green Irish Tweed?

    Quote Originally Posted by narcus View Post

    Similar stories, but adding myth to the English throne: the ones on Royal English Leather which must have been created in the 20th century, and most likely a long time after Tabac Blond, Cuir de Russie and The Knize 10 were on the market. When finally the truth will be uncovered you wonder why they would deny the talent of others for so long. Quite a few Creed perfumes show that some most respectable perfumers, maybe among those well known, have created them.
    So you do admit that BdP is not the only Creed you lust after, and that not all are generic millesi-mehs ? Or is it that you will only admit to such *if* they are created by some perfumer you respect ? Which one is it? Or lets just throw independent perfume evaluation out the window ...
    Last edited by zztopp; 14th May 2009 at 05:40 PM.
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  18. #18

    Smile Re: Did Pierre Bourdon create Green Irish Tweed?

    Quote Originally Posted by zztopp View Post
    Before things (again) get out of hand...At this point in time I have a more direct access to Creed than Luca Turin does. He got the GIT-Creed info from Michael Edwards, and Michael Edwards got his from .... ?

    All my information is straight from the horse's mouth, that is Erwin Creed.
    With utmost respect, zztop, if I were Erwin Creed giving an interview, I would do my best to give a credible answer in line with the company's marketing.

    Michael Edwards is a pundit, and might not be constrained to Erwin Creed's PR-talk.

    My best - unfounded - guess is, that Creed hires perfumers from IFF/Firmenich/etc. just like anyone else, and let them sign an NDA. Oliver and Erwin would act like a creative director, much like Tom Ford at Gucci's or at his own label.
    Last edited by Stereotomy; 14th May 2009 at 05:50 PM.
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  19. #19

    Default Re: Did Pierre Bourdon create Green Irish Tweed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stereotomy View Post
    With utmost respect, zztop, if I were Erwin Creed giving an interview, I would do my best to give a credible answer in line with the company's marketing.

    Michael Edwards is a pundit, and might not be constrained to Erwin Creed's PR-talk.

    My best - unfounded - guess is, that Creed hires perfumers from IFF/Firmenich/etc. just like anyone else, and let them sign an NDA. Oliver and Erwin would act like a creative director, much like Tom Ford at Gucci's or at his own label.
    There is a reason why I can't record my conversations with EC.

    But then who knows if he's lying to me ... I mean really who can believe anything anyone says unless they see it happening infront of their eyes, correct ? I want Sheldrake to re-create La Myrrhe right infront of my eyes...I refuse to believe he's the author, etc etc
    Last edited by zztopp; 14th May 2009 at 05:55 PM.
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  20. #20

    Default Re: Did Pierre Bourdon create Green Irish Tweed?

    Quote Originally Posted by zztopp View Post
    Before things (again) get out of hand...At this point in time I have a more direct access to Creed than Luca Turin does. He got the GIT-Creed info from Michael Edwards, and Michael Edwards got his from .... ?

    All my information is straight from the horse's mouth, that is Erwin Creed. Maybe someone should talk to Bourdon...now that he's retired and all he may say something, if there's anything to be said. Nowhere else will you find the information that the gunpowder note in Himalaya was recommended by Bourdon. It all depends on the questions you ask...garbage in, garbage out. I happen to ask inquisitive questions and Erwin Creed has been willing to answer questions so far. I will be talking to him again soon...but its not just me who has access to him. He visits many Creed counters a number of times a year...the Sniffapalooza folks are local and get to meet him in person multiple times per year. However they are at fault for asking him generic focus-group questions while my questions go quite a bit further than that and Erwin Creed gladly obliges whenever he can.

    I don't find it hard to believe that the Creed family can be friends with Bourdon ..why can't it be true? Its well known that the Nina Ricci and Creed families are long time friends. As to the question of who did what...can we be really sure that Polge is creating all current Chanel fragrances? Who's really behind the recent Guerlains? Where are the Serge Lutens fragrances coming from? As many of us who have academic/research experience can attest, most of the times its the junior lab workers who crank out the results while the lab director or department head gets all the credit. I guess direction counts for something as well.
    zztopp,

    It seems your second paragraph wants to claim that Olivier Creed is the perfumer, and your third, which I think makes eminently more sense, and is closer to the on the ground reality of fragrance creation, leaves open the possibility that more than likely Bourdon was in the position of "junior lab worker" and didn't get the credit or decided not to take the credit for his involvement with GIT. If he is a friend of Olivier Creed's, the later is a distinct possibility. In both cases, it's a matter of faith what we believe, and until there is an independently verifiable confirmation as to how much exactly Pierre Bourdon was involved in the creation of GIT, I will continue to believe, based on faith, that he had a significant involvement. Also, there is too much of a intimate congruence between GIT and Cool Water for me to suspect that they are not somehow both from the same hand. I tend to agree with manicboy on this one. Furthermore, and if I could really be bothered, which I can't, I could argue that GIT and Cool Water, along with Live Jazz, and Kouros share unmistakable Bourdon signatures, but, again, that would prove very little because it would be based on interpretation. Nevertheless, I think there is a good argument to be made along those lines.

    Speaking of matters of faith, it is a matter off faith and a matter of principle with me to take anything said by Erwin Creed or his father with a huge tablespoon of salt. You might have it from the horse's mouth, but I don't trust your talking horse, and it should be said I don't trust pretty much anyone affiliated with any perfume company. I will reiterate, again, what I said in another thread posted just yesterday:
    As I have noted before, Chandler Burr's courageous book The Perfect Scent makes it very clear that modern perfumery is predicated on out and out lies and the withholding of information. What in Creed's public pronouncements thus far inspire credibility that anything they claim can be taken on trust.

    BTW, Michael Edwards has extensive contacts inside the industry and is a highly respected. He is a meticulous chronicler of information. I don't see why we should suspect his claims any less that Erwin Creed's. I don't know where he got his information from, but I do know his work, including his excellent book Perfume Legends: French Feminine Fragrances, which is based on his extensive contact with industry insiders with intimate information, which even a cursory look at the book will confirm. Your casting doubt on the veracity of Edwards' information by using ellipses and a question mark is hardly convincing that he is not to be trusted anymore than your man. Nothing will disabuse me of the belief--except a statement by Bourdon himself--that were there's smoke there's more than likely fire.

    scentemental


    Last edited by scentemental; 14th May 2009 at 07:24 PM.

  21. #21

    Default Re: Did Pierre Bourdon create Green Irish Tweed?

    Quote Originally Posted by scentemental View Post
    Your casting doubt on the veracity of Edwards' information by using ellipses and a question mark is hardly convincing that he is not to be trusted anymore the your man.

    scentemental


    [/COLOR]
    He may have a good book but I do know a number of edits he has made to his online information listing to rectify information facts. I had a list bookmarked or lying around on my laptop somewhere.. I believe he gets his information by interacting with House CEOs, owners, like that piece of nugget quoted on a BN article regarding one of Halstons perfume names...there is no other way to get information on proprietary information, especially one from a privately-held (and not publicly-traded) house such as Creed.
    -

  22. #22

    Default Re: Did Pierre Bourdon create Green Irish Tweed?

    Quote Originally Posted by hirch_duckfinder View Post
    I agree with your general comments about the issue scentemental, however I would just point out that a lack of positive evidence is not the same as negative evidence.
    Hundreds of years of histories, diaries, biographies, et cetera, and not one single mention of Creed? The more one looks, and the more one continues to find nothing, the more reasonable it is to conclude that there is nothing to find, after all.

    Quote Originally Posted by hirch_duckfinder View Post
    And basically no more dishonest than most fragrance houses who like to infer that Mr. Versace made the perfume with crushed rose petals and havanas etc....
    It is true, there is a lot of BS in the fashion industry. However, I would say that Creed's . . . um, hyberbole . . . is an order of magnitude greater than the norm. And, as my mother told me, two wrongs don't make a right. (But three lefts do!)

    Quote Originally Posted by zztopp View Post
    All my information is straight from the horse's mouth, that is Erwin Creed.
    So . . . Erwin Creed created Green Irish Tweed because Erwin Creed says he created Greed Irish Tweed? Well, that should be good enough for anyone!

  23. #23

    Default Re: Did Pierre Bourdon create Green Irish Tweed?

    It's kind of hard to believe that there is a clearly definable, single author (in the 'days of yore' sense) of any fragrance from a company that works with the flavor and fragrance biggies. When a new, very exclusive aroma chemical comes along and it's offered to say Proctor and Gamble and they decide to use it for their new Gucci release and hire Maurice Roucel to work with it, is he really the sole author? He may be the creative director, but he's working with so many elements that are pre-made. I always think of the film Blow-up when I ponder this kind of question. The closer you look at something, the more obscure it becomes.
    It really is a collaborative effort - that's why I see this new development of the 'cult of the nose' to be, at times, a bit ridiculous.
    Last edited by Kevin Guyer; 14th May 2009 at 06:31 PM.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Did Pierre Bourdon create Green Irish Tweed?

    Quote Originally Posted by zztopp View Post
    He may have a good book but I do know a number of edits he has made to his online information listing to rectify information facts. I had a list bookmarked or lying around on my laptop somewhere.. I believe he gets his information by interacting with House CEOs, owners, like that piece of nugget quoted on a BN article regarding one of Halstons perfume names...there is no other way to get information on proprietary information, especially one from a privately-held (and not publicly-traded) house such as Creed.
    Quote Originally Posted by zztopp View Post
    There is a reason why I can't record my conversations with EC.

    But then who knows if he's lying to me ... I mean really who can believe anything anyone says unless they see it happening infront of their eyes, correct ? I want Sheldrake to re-create La Myrrhe right infront of my eyes...I refuse to believe he's the author, etc etc

    zz


    zz, I don't want to get into a pointless hairsplitting argument with you. I respect you too much for that, and I honestly believe that your intentions are always honorable when it comes to getting to the truth of things. So let's not split hairs. Clearly, if your second post quoted directly above is to be taken as unironically, you and I are on the same epistemological page, and that might have something to do with the fact that were both former academics.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ruggles View Post
    It's kind of hard to believe that there is a clearly one definable single author (in the 'days of yore' sense) of any fragrance from a company that works with the flavor and fragrance biggies. When a new, very exclusive aroma chemical comes along and it's offered to say Proctor and Gamble and they decide to use it for their new Gucci release and hire Maurice Roucel to work with it, is he really the sole author? He may be the creative director, but he's working with so many elements that are pre-made. I always think of the film Blow-up when I ponder this kind of question. The closer you look at something, the more obscure it becomes.
    It really is a collaborative effort - that's why I see this new development of the 'cult of the nose' to be, at times, a bit ridiculous.

    Excellent point and very well put Ruggles. The same thing was the case with a lot of Renaissance painting in which the master would conceive of the painting, sketch it out in some detail, and would leave the finishing of it to his apprentices. Tintoretto and Titian I believe, if my memory serves me correctly, worked in this manner. Michelangelo, however, I believe, predominantly worked alone, and I am sure there were other artists who did a bit of both. I think it's probably a lot like this in the perfume industry. I know Roudnitska was a lone wolf as were/are some of the other greats. I think though your general point is well taken.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stereotomy View Post
    With utmost respect, zztop, if I were Erwin Creed giving an interview, I would do my best to give a credible answer in line with the company's marketing.

    Michael Edwards is a pundit, and might not be constrained to Erwin Creed's PR-talk.

    My best - unfounded - guess is, that Creed hires perfumers from IFF/Firmenich/etc. just like anyone else, and let them sign an NDA. Oliver and Erwin would act like a creative director, much like Tom Ford at Gucci's or at his own label.

    Without doubt the most sensible thing said so far in this thread and eminently more sensible than anything I said in my circumlocutory manner. Thanks Stereotomy.

    scentemental
    Last edited by scentemental; 14th May 2009 at 06:47 PM.

  25. #25

    Default Re: Did Pierre Bourdon create Green Irish Tweed?

    LOL this seems to be the hottest tub at the moment!
    Quote Originally Posted by hirch_duckfinder View Post
    Well reading that thread would make me tend to give the answer "no" rather than "yes". Not sure how you extract from that thread that Bourdon is the creator? I don't know the real answer, I'm just talking about interpretation of the source here...
    Actually it's all in my post #4. And I knew why I wanted the answer to be clear and simple - including the essence of my interpretation of zz's thread last June.
    Quote Originally Posted by hirch_duckfinder View Post
    ...By the way - if the history of Creed IS all fabrication (which I think it is not) - you have to admit that it is a brilliant bit of low cost, highly effective marketing. Genius. And basically no more dishonest than most fragrance houses who like to infer that Mr. Versace made the perfume with crushed rose petals and havanas etc...
    I ardenty disliked the true 4711 - history when I learned about it in 2004-05. I thought this was a unique fraud, and possible in that period of time only. So, until about 2006, I religiously believed everything I read about the Big Myth, Creed. (Creed Press, perfume blogs and BN). I stopped believing when in a period of frantic searches for more details I always found the same answers everywhere. Only then it became evident to me that everything I knew had always came from the same source: Creed, Creed Press, Creed ! Even at Wiki a lot of parroting...

    I spoke to friends in France and learned that Creed didn't seem to have a great renommé in Paris, and, most surprisingly, they do not seem to have a French website to this date!? When the image began to show flaws, my unsuspecting mind adjusted itself quickly. And now I am suspicious of all news related to their house and issued by their leading heads. I am not at all impressed by what you and others call brilliant marketing or survival techniques. And if it's true that other houses, Versace for example, could be worse, I will accept that. But it doesn't excuse Creed's own way of dealing with facts, particularly not in the 20th century and today. The people in my bank are no saints just because other banks (abroad) are run by even bigger crooks! Too big is the gap between image and reality. The royal leather story, if taken seriously, would require rewriting the perfume history. How can it be that hard thinking savants put common sense out of control - is it really just because some of Creeds perfumes smell so good?
    Last edited by narcus; 14th May 2009 at 07:06 PM.
    'Il mondo dei profumi č un universo senza limiti: una fraganza puo rievocare sensazioni, luoghi, persone o ancora condurre in uno spazio di nuove dimensioni emozionali' L. V.

  26. #26

    Default Re: Did Pierre Bourdon create Green Irish Tweed?

    Quote Originally Posted by narcus View Post
    . . . I spoke to friends in France and learned that Creed didn't seem to have a great renommé in their home country . . .

    For what it's worth, that information was also available here on Basenotes in one form or another as many of us tried, at times frustratingly and seemingly insurmountably, to battle the ad-copy pronouncements of unthinking, naive Creed acolytes a few years ago when such pronouncements were rampant. Most of us figured out Creed's "French reputation" through a process of deduction. I am happy to hear it confirmed by the French themselves.

    scentementa
    l
    Last edited by scentemental; 14th May 2009 at 07:25 PM.

  27. #27

    Default Re: Did Pierre Bourdon create Green Irish Tweed?

    Quote Originally Posted by narcus View Post
    is it really just because some of Creeds perfumes smell so good?
    Let's pursue that. Many people genuinely enjoy smelling Creed fragrances, and shouldn't that be the real point? The mythos seems to be a diversion from that inquiry. Unfortunately, many times we fall in love with the myth rather than the reality; hence the piss and vinegar.

  28. #28

    Default Re: Did Pierre Bourdon create Green Irish Tweed?

    Pierre Bourdon might be the one who is truly behind GIT, while Olivier Creed is the one who invested in the project, directed it and marketed it. Just like everyone else here in this thread, I am merely speculating. Just like the other dozens of threads on matters such as this, I doubt we will ever have concrete evidence supporting either side of the story.

    I have a feeling even if you were to ask Pierre Bourdon himself regarding the creation of GIT, it would not prove much. He would probably deny it since he was probably paid a lot by Olivier Creed to keep it quiet; therefore, giving Olivier Creed the full credit for GIT.

    Either way, thanks to Olivier Creed and Pierre Bourdon for composing one of the most pleasurable experiences I ever had with a fragrance!

    Is it so wrong for me to receive so much joy from something that may have been wrongly marketed?

    Even if it was proven to be false advertistment, like hirch_duckfinder was attemping to get at, why should any of that (what-so-ever) have any influence with my enjoyment of this beautiful piece of art? We are all at the stage of our lives where we can separate psychobabble from reality, right?
    Last edited by Mindbrain; 16th May 2009 at 03:27 AM.

  29. #29

    Default Re: Did Pierre Bourdon create Green Irish Tweed?

    I do enjoy reading this discourse, and I appreciate that so far, it has taken an academic turn and not denigarated. I enjoy scentamentals, scentsitivity, zztopp, narcus, ruggles and everyone's contributions. Thank you.

  30. #30

    Default Re: Did Pierre Bourdon create Green Irish Tweed?

    Quote Originally Posted by zztopp View Post
    So you do admit that BdP is not the only Creed you lust after, and that not all are generic millesi-mehs ? Or is it that you will only admit to such *if* they are created by some perfumer you respect ? Which one is it? Or lets just throw independent perfume evaluation out the window ...
    Don't try and put me into any camp I don't belong to. I am neither Creed head nor hater. Stating my appreciation for certain Creed fragrances - where do you think we are, calling that an 'admittance' ? I do hope that the true perfumers of all Creeds will not be denied the honor of being named before they die. (In the end this is also about money.)*

    If Bourdon was 'just a friend' who are his other friends? Erwin is certainly aware what Edwards and Turin have published re GIT. If that wasn't the truth it should be important enough for Creed to have the 'error' corrected: "by Olivier Creed and friends..." (smile!) . Why, do you think, wasn't it done?

    This is not written to diminish your good intentions and effort ZZ, but all we have is your written report of details from a private conversation between you and Erwin Creed. This is not an interview. I could therefore not use it to quote Erwin Creed with any amount of credibility. But it is valuable information for all of us here. And I thank you for that.

    *) If this wasn't about perfume creation in France, but movie production in Hollywood the artists would have a Union to protect their rights or interests. All movies, even porn productions, show a long list of artists at the end, down to the last hand in the cutting room.
    Last edited by narcus; 14th May 2009 at 09:06 PM.
    'Il mondo dei profumi č un universo senza limiti: una fraganza puo rievocare sensazioni, luoghi, persone o ancora condurre in uno spazio di nuove dimensioni emozionali' L. V.

  31. #31

    Default Re: Did Pierre Bourdon create Green Irish Tweed?

    Quote Originally Posted by narcus View Post
    I spoke to friends in France and learned that Creed didn't seem to have a great renommé in Paris, and, most surprisingly, they do not seem to have a French website to this date!? When the image began to show flaws, my unsuspecting mind adjusted itself quickly. And now I am suspicious of all news related to their house and issued by their leading heads. I am not at all impressed by what you and others call brilliant marketing or survival techniques. And if it's true that other houses, Versace for example, could be worse, I will accept that. But it doesn't excuse Creed's own way of dealing with facts, particularly not in the 20th century and today. The people in my bank are no saints just because other banks (abroad) are run by even bigger crooks! Too big is the gap between image and reality. The royal leather story, if taken seriously, would require rewriting the perfume history. How can it be that hard thinking savants put common sense out of control - is it really just because some of Creeds perfumes smell so good?
    From what my relatives in the UK and France told me, its probably because Creed is still treated as 'english' and 'non-native' and we all know how the French and the english love each other...

    Anyways even if GIT and other Creed frags were created by a handicapped french monkey with a lisp and a hairy back, I would still love to wear them...one can believe whatever they want to believe if it satiates their perfume hobby desire. I think there's enough material in this thread to refer back to it whenever someone asks 'wuz Burdun creates GITz' ..
    -

  32. #32

    Default Re: Did Pierre Bourdon create Green Irish Tweed?

    Quote Originally Posted by narcus View Post
    LOL this seems to be the hottest tub at the moment!
    Actually it's all in my post #4. And I knew why I wanted the answer to be clear and simple - including the essence of my interpretation of zz's thread last June.
    I am not sure what you mean?
    Is it this which you wrote in post 4:

    I hear that Creed have meanwhile conceded that Pierre Bourdon was the perfumer 'guided by' Olivier Creed.

    Do you have a source for this?
    "Don’t try to be original. Be simple. Be good technically, and if there is something in you, it will come out. ” - Henri Matisse.

    "Wear R de Capucci" - Hirch Duckfinder

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  33. #33

    Default Re: Did Pierre Bourdon create Green Irish Tweed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Advocate View Post
    Hundreds of years of histories, diaries, biographies, et cetera, and not one single mention of Creed? The more one looks, and the more one continues to find nothing, the more reasonable it is to conclude that there is nothing to find, after all.

    There are many reasons why Creed may not appear in those places. I actually think it unlikely that it is all complete fabrication. It seems to me plausible that Creed was a tailor/leather goods business which sold a little fragrance too as an extra service to clients (many did, perfume was historically very closely related to leather which didn't smell good without it - Maitre Parfumer et Gantier anyone?). It may not be mentioned because a) there is very little literature in which it could be mentioned b) it just wasn't/didn't seem to be very important.c) it was sold in standard apothocary bottles - likely unlabed.

    Just supposition. It just seems like a huge and somewhat unlikely undertaking to have made up all the older EDTs in modern times.

    With regard to REL for example - it seems possible that they had some type of vanillic/mandarin fragrance for leather back then. I'm sure the current formula may be vastly different but it may be a reference to that?

    Anyway - who cares, I like many of the perfumes very much and some are clearly made with very good ingredients.
    "Don’t try to be original. Be simple. Be good technically, and if there is something in you, it will come out. ” - Henri Matisse.

    "Wear R de Capucci" - Hirch Duckfinder

    reviews

  34. #34

    Default Re: Did Pierre Bourdon create Green Irish Tweed?

    Quote Originally Posted by scentemental View Post

    For what it's worth, that information was also available here on Basenotes in one form or another as many of us tried, at times frustratingly and seemingly insurmountably, to battle the ad-copy pronouncements of unthinking, naive Creed acolytes a few years ago when such pronouncements were rampant. Most of us figured out Creed's "French reputation" through a process of deduction. I am happy to hear it confirmed by the French themselves.

    scentementa
    l
    Ahhh, reminds me of the battles of Samplermike and Everso, so long ago
    Last edited by Diverdown; 15th May 2009 at 12:25 AM.

  35. #35

    Default Re: Did Pierre Bourdon create Green Irish Tweed?

    The past history of a house need not say much about the present quality of its products.
    Still, it irks me when a company such as Creed tries to style itself similarly important as Guerlain as supplier to 19th century elites, not because it reduces my pleasure derived from wearing Vintage Tabarome or Royal English Leather, but because it is falsifying history.

    If we assume that Creed tailors offered fragrances in their London and later Paris establishment, it would have been very unlikely for them not to have carried the desired brands of the day, such as Farina. There is no record of Creed purchases of Farina cologne. If they produced their own fragrances, these would not have been creative compositions, but standard prescriptions, perhaps slightly varied, from the available perfume handbooks of the day. If the Creeds, besides working as full-time tailors to the European aristocracy, had had the time to travel the world in search of rare essences or had invented modern perfumery as clearly evident in the current formulations of vintage Tab or REL before the fact, even a somewhat unreliable narrator such as Charles Creed should have mentioned it in passing at least in his autobiography. The numerous incongruencies in Creed's own datings of perfumes and ascriptions to royalty and stars suggest a massive amount of fiction is indeed involved. The connection of the current line of fragrances to some (alleged) past history or even just a former incarnation is at best very tenuous.
    But hirch is right in observing that the transfer of the illustrious Creed tailoring history to Olivier's new early 70s perfume business was a brilliant marketing move unabashedly aimed, I should think, at the US market. The story has atrophied over the years, however, and really gets to be distastefully phony after the 25th reiteration. But they're stuck with it now, just as Farina clings adamantly to its view of EdC history - the difference being that the latter can muster impressive archival evidence to support their case.

    As to the original question, my speculation, and speculating is all we are doing here, is that Olivier was Serge and Bourdon was Sheldrake.
    My Wardrobe
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  36. #36

    Default Re: Did Pierre Bourdon create Green Irish Tweed?

    Quote Originally Posted by the_good_life View Post
    But hirch is right in observing that the transfer of the illustrious Creed tailoring history to Olivier's new early 70s perfume business was a brilliant marketing move unabashedly aimed, I should think, at the US market. The story has atrophied over the years, however, and really gets to be distastefully phony after the 25th reiteration. But they're stuck with it now, just as Farina clings adamantly to its view of EdC history - the difference being that the latter can muster impressive archival evidence to support their case.
    I am sure I have stated this before but will re-iterate this in the interest of completeness.

    Creed may not have much of a document past history as perfumers, but their recent transformation into a major niche house is a big success story. Consequently they will have much of a future than many of the disintegrating and financially dead 'former glory' houses, and atleast from the 1970s onwards they will be firmly documented in many books, having penetrated the biggest economy in the world with success.

    Creeds is a story of shrewd business acumen .. from leather goods maker, to tailors, to a perfume house...three lines of business, each being the main focus of the house's business strategy at various points in its life. I don't doubt there were some Creed perfume formulas even when they were scenting leather gloves in the early 1800s (it was a fairly standard practice at the time), but these were probably not the main line of business (just like how Czech & Speakes' perfumes complement their upscale bathroom line). REL may have existed in some form at that time and then later reformulated (the reformulation dates are available from an Italian site...http://www.cale.it/home-marchio.asp?idmarchio=2 ). As much as it may petrify some people here, changing business focus isn't as unexpected as one may think. Business case studies are littered with examples of companies which have re-invented themselves...some of my favorite examples are Intel, Nintendo, and most recently, Apple. I have a fairly good knowledge of technology transfer having dealt with venture capitalists, and Creeds business trajectory certainly follows many of the lauded Geoffrey Moore's evolutionary principles as detailed in his excellent Dealing with Darwin book.
    Last edited by zztopp; 15th May 2009 at 05:04 AM. Reason: added italian site link
    -

  37. #37

    Default Re: Did Pierre Bourdon create Green Irish Tweed?

    To avoid any further confusion, I suggest they change the name to:
    Cool Irish Tweed.
    Last edited by Kevin Guyer; 15th May 2009 at 02:44 AM.

  38. #38

    Default Re: Did Pierre Bourdon create Green Irish Tweed?

    Quote Originally Posted by zztopp View Post
    I am sure I have stated this before but will re-iterate this in the interest of completeness.

    Creed may not have much of a document past history as perfumers, but their recent transformation into a major niche house is a big success story. Consequently they will have much of a future than many of the disintegrating and financially dead 'former glory' houses, and atleast from the 1970s onwards they will be firmly documented in many books, having penetrated the biggest economy in the world with success.

    Creeds is a story of shrewd business acumen .. from leather goods maker, to tailors, to a perfume house...three lines of business, each being the main focus of the house's business strategy at various points in its life. I don't doubt there were some Creed perfume formulas even when they were scenting leather gloves in the early 1800s (it was a fairly standard practice at the time), but these were probably not the main line of business (just like how Czech & Speakes' perfumes complement their upscale bathroom line). REL may have existed in some form at that time and then later reformulated (the reformulation dates are available from an Italian site...I will post the link later). As much as it may petrify some people here, changing business focus isn't as unexpected as one may think. Business case studies are littered with examples of companies which have re-invented themselves...some of my favorite examples are Intel, Nintendo, and most recently, Apple. I have a fairly good knowledge of technology transfer having dealt with venture capitalists, and Creeds business trajectory certainly follows many of the lauded Geoffrey Moore's evolutionary principles as detailed in his excellent Dealing with Darwin book.
    All solid points zz, all well made and intelligently set out. A very pragmatic way of looking at things, but you missed the point. You seem to be easily able to excuse them for a serious lack of integrity and for their silly, pretend elitist credentials. I find both repugnant in the extreme.

    You know what, I am done with discussing the antics of Creed. It's simply a waste of time to give them any further credence. If you want to continue as an apologist for them and their antics, by all means, that's your entitlement.

    scentemental
    Last edited by scentemental; 15th May 2009 at 03:58 AM.

  39. #39

    Default Re: Did Pierre Bourdon create Green Irish Tweed?

    Being a newcomer, I had no idea when I started this thread that this was such a hot button topic.

    I'm going to assume Bourdon created it - considering the conspicuous lack of evidence of so many of Creed's claims of past glory in perfume, I wouldn't be surprised if Olivier Creed tried to take all of the credit for GIT. He seems like a conceited fop. I also find Creed's marketing snooty, pretentious and nauseating.

    On the other hand, this discussion has not hindered my admiration for any of the Creed fragrances that I own and love - e.g., Epicea, Cypres Musc, GIT and Neroli Sauvage. Although the thought that Creed's "history" is a bunch of B.S. is disturbing to me, I'll still keep buying their fragrances because many of them are superb. Luckily I can easily separate my hatred for their marketing from my love of many of their fragrances, and consider them separately.

  40. #40

    Default Re: Did Pierre Bourdon create Green Irish Tweed?

    shamu1,

    In line with your resolution to keep enjoying the fragrances you enjoy, with which I wholeheartedly agree, can I suggest you try to get your hands on some Santal Imperial, the older the better. I find the contemporary formulation just doesn't have the same true sandalwood note to it that makes the older formulation a really impressive and unique fragrance. I would also suggest you try some of the older fragrances like Acier Aluminium, Orange Spice, Vintage Tabarome if you haven't already.

    Feuille Vert is superb, but unfortunately it was a limited edition. If you can at least sample it, I would highly recommend that you do. Royal Ceylan is a beautiful and ethereal fragrance in the same manner; unfortunately, it too is a limited edition.

    Best regards,

    scentemental

    Last edited by scentemental; 15th May 2009 at 03:54 AM.

  41. #41

    Default Re: Did Pierre Bourdon create Green Irish Tweed?

    Quote Originally Posted by scentemental View Post
    All solid points zz, all well made and intelligently set out. A very pragmatic way of looking at things, but you missed the point. You seem to be easily able to excuse them for a serious lack of integrity and for their silly, pretend elitist credentials. I find both repugnant in the extreme.

    You know what, I am done with discussing the antics of Creed. It's simply a waste of time to give them any further credence. If you want to continue as an apologist for them and their antics, by all means, that's your entitlement.

    scentemental
    I am not an apologist, but I do have a different way of looking at things as I judge a product based on what it is not sorely on who did it (unlike some others here). At this point, nothings confirmed and its all speculation, so there's no lack of integrity. I view Creeds promotion as something which is very inline with what the whole industry does, so if we start dismissing houses based on misleading promotional materials we would have very little to sniff at. But yea I agree this discussion is done.
    -

  42. #42

    Default Re: Did Pierre Bourdon create Green Irish Tweed?

    This is a great thread, I expect anytime soon a post from Dan Aykroyd starting with, "Jane, you ignorant slut!"
    Last edited by Kevin Guyer; 15th May 2009 at 04:06 AM.

  43. #43
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    Default Re: Did Pierre Bourdon create Green Irish Tweed?

    I actually agree that it was a great thread. Although these points have been debated over and over, I think it was very well-done this time, and in a civilized fashion. I appreciate everybody's input.

    I would only add this thought for anybody out there in the industry who might be reading. There is a real opportunity today for what I would call "truth as advertising" - which is something beyond mere truth in advertising. What I mean to say is this... There is obviously some serious interest in the true history of fragrance - perhaps more interest than there is in dubious historical distortions. Although it might seem prudent to overstate and embellish, the fact of the matter is that many fragrance followers - who are customers - are hungrier for minor truths than they are for major fibs. Michael Edwards' book, which touches on the actual history of houses, the ups and downs of the designers, and the personal thoughts and artistic aspirations of the perfumers, shows that the truth is far more interesting than the lie. I am of the opinion that Erwin Creed "gets" this, and that his interview with zztop is indicative of a future direction of increased transparency which I hope the industry will follow.

    Scentemental - I'm looking forward to your book! And congratulations on 5000 posts, Ruggles!
    * * * *

  44. #44

    Default Re: Did Pierre Bourdon create Green Irish Tweed?

    to all the posters above (special mention to zztop and scentemental): THANKYOU.

    I'm so happy to read well thought out and cordially discussed topics. To be honest, reading "will AdG get me laid or will it be le male... and is it a masterpiece?" posts is getting a bit long on the tooth so this was refreshing.

    Well done for arguing with conviction but in a most civil spirit, you make a difference to this place.

  45. #45
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    Default Re: Did Pierre Bourdon create Green Irish Tweed?

    Quote Originally Posted by jathanas View Post
    I'm so happy to read well thought out and cordially discussed topics. To be honest, reading "will AdG get me laid or will it be le male... and is it a masterpiece?" posts is getting a bit long on the tooth so this was refreshing.

    Well done for arguing with conviction but in a most civil spirit, you make a difference to this place.
    I second this!

    I think we've lost sight of the real question, though: Who created Green Frich Tweed? My guess is Louie, that guy who works in the warehouse on the docks.
    Last edited by dpak; 15th May 2009 at 12:04 PM.
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  46. #46

    Default Re: Did Pierre Bourdon create Green Irish Tweed?

    Quote Originally Posted by dpak View Post
    I second this!

    I think we've lost sight of the real question, though: Who created Green Frich Tweed? My guess is Louie, that guy who works in the warehouse on the docks.
    Louie has a long history (undocumented) of creating bespoke perfume for union officials that frequented the docks, Green Frich Tweed was created for Norm the head of the dockers union in 1973 during a strike (or a lunchbreak)...

  47. #47
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    Default Re: Did Pierre Bourdon create Green Irish Tweed?

    Well done Gentleman! Informative, focused and most enjoyable read.
    Our job is to live joyfully in this world of sorrows--Joseph Campbell

  48. #48

    Default Re: Did Pierre Bourdon create Green Irish Tweed?

    Quote Originally Posted by hirch_duckfinder View Post
    It seems to me plausible that Creed was a tailor/leather goods business which sold a little fragrance too as an extra service to clients . . . .
    It seems reasonable to me, too, that may be the kernel of truth behind all of the fancy pretention.

    Quote Originally Posted by zztopp View Post
    Anyways even if GIT and other Creed frags were created by a handicapped french monkey with a lisp and a hairy back, I would still love to wear them.
    So . . . Gérard Depardieu created Green Irish Tweed?

    Kidding! Just kidding!

    Quote Originally Posted by zztopp View Post
    I judge a product based on what it is
    I think that is what we all aspire to, but the vociferousness with which Creed's tall tales gets defended around here indicates that many people who love Creed do so because they love its self-serving myths.

  49. #49

    Default Re: Did Pierre Bourdon create Green Irish Tweed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Advocate View Post

    I think that is what we all aspire to, but the vociferousness with which Creed's tall tales gets defended around here indicates that many people who love Creed do so because they love its self-serving myths.
    That's so true. Unconsciously, we all do that.

    Even the brands that present themselves as kinda marketing-less (Le Labo, with the austere labels, CB I Hate Perfume or whatever) are using a contrasting marketing-approach to differentiate themselves from the mainstream ads that are found in designer scents.

    Scents are emotion, marketing and branding is always an issue.
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  50. #50

    Default Re: Did Pierre Bourdon create Green Irish Tweed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Advocate View Post
    I think that is what we all aspire to, but the vociferousness with which Creed's tall tales gets defended around here indicates that many people who love Creed do so because they love its self-serving myths.

    you actually believe people here buy Creed because of its "self-serving myths"? that means even scentemental, when he recommends not one, but 6 fragrances from this line, does so because of the same??

  51. #51

    Default Re: Did Pierre Bourdon create Green Irish Tweed?

    Quote Originally Posted by jenson View Post
    you actually believe people here buy Creed because of its "self-serving myths"? that means even scentemental, when he recommends not one, but 6 fragrances from this line, does so because of the same??
    Many people != all people.

    Judging from scentemental's posts on the subject, he clearly does not buy into Creed's self-serving myths, and he enjoys Creed scents in spite of, not because of, its indefensible marketing.

    However, judging from the hellfire and brimstone that gets rained down on people who dare to question Creed's version of its own importance, yes, I do conclude that some people are emotionally invested in Creed's romantic image of itself, rather than any cold, clinical appraisal of a fragrance's inherent quality.

  52. #52

    Default Re: Did Pierre Bourdon create Green Irish Tweed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Advocate View Post
    Many people != all people.

    Judging from scentemental's posts on the subject, he clearly does not buy into Creed's self-serving myths, and he enjoys Creed scents in spite of, not because of, its indefensible marketing.

    However, judging from the hellfire and brimstone that gets rained down on people who dare to question Creed's version of its own importance, yes, I do conclude that some people are emotionally invested in Creed's romantic image of itself, rather than any cold, clinical appraisal of a fragrance's inherent quality.
    Right, so the dude that buys Armani, or Chanel isn't? This aspirational / prestige appeal is part and parcel of the perfume marketer's arsenal.

  53. #53

    Default Re: Did Pierre Bourdon create Green Irish Tweed?

    Being 'aspirational' is a human trait that finds its expression in a multitude of ways in everyone of us. Some people use this urge to 'be better' than others by becoming great thinkers/achievers, some become compassionate do-gooders, while others take the easy route and just buy stuff and drive around in Hummers.
    Last edited by Kevin Guyer; 16th May 2009 at 05:20 PM.

  54. #54

    Default Re: Did Pierre Bourdon create Green Irish Tweed?

    I hope five thousand posts will also hammer a philosopher out of me!! Still miles to go here.
    'Il mondo dei profumi č un universo senza limiti: una fraganza puo rievocare sensazioni, luoghi, persone o ancora condurre in uno spazio di nuove dimensioni emozionali' L. V.

  55. #55

    Default Re: Did Pierre Bourdon create Green Irish Tweed?

    Quote Originally Posted by narcus View Post
    I hope five thousand posts will also hammer a philosopher out of me!!
    Not unless you drink some of the "GIT" being spoken of in here, that stuff morphs one into posting like their life depended on it.


    PVC and Leather. A Chain and a feather




  56. #56
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    Default Re: Did Pierre Bourdon create Green Irish Tweed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruggles View Post
    Being 'aspirational' is a human trait that finds its expression in a multitude of ways in everyone of us. Some people use this urge to 'be better' than others by becoming great thinkers/achievers, while others take the easy route and just buy stuff and drive around in Hummers.
    I love the way that Larry Wall (of Perl fame) updated the idea of "information wants to be free" to "information wants to be valuable". And that would include y'all, my fellow Turing machines.

    Which might be an interesting blog post. However, I think I'll just go buy the last bottle of A*Men Pure Coffee that I know about! A*Men Pure Coffee wants to be valuable, too!
    * * * *

  57. #57

    Default Re: Did Pierre Bourdon create Green Irish Tweed?

    Quote Originally Posted by jathanas View Post
    Right, so the dude that buys Armani, or Chanel isn't? This aspirational / prestige appeal is part and parcel of the perfume marketer's arsenal.
    Bringing Armani or Chanel into this discussion is simply misdirection. The question here is does Creed lie or does Creed tell the truth? By the way, Armani doesn't claim to be 200 years old and that King George III wore Code for Men. Coco Chanel was a real person; Chanel marketing didn't simply make her up in the 1970s.

    I am not speaking here of the prestige of a brand, or the aspirations of its consumers. Some people undoubtedly buy Armani because the name carries prestige. Some people undoubtedly buy Chanel because they aspire to Coco's dazzling sense of style. Other people certainly buy Armani, or Chanel (or Creed, for that matter) on the inherent value of the perfume's composition.

    Some people like the way Creed perfumes smell. I respect that. Some people find Creed products to be a good value in terms of the pleasure that they receive in exchange for the price they pay. I respect that. I don't respect people presenting a lie as if it were the truth. I don't respect people making excuses for liars, either.

  58. #58

    Default Re: Did Pierre Bourdon create Green Irish Tweed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redneck Perfumisto View Post
    I love the way that Larry Wall (of Perl fame) updated the idea of "information wants to be free" to "information wants to be valuable". And that would include y'all, my fellow Turing machines.
    Any information that isn't intended misinformation can serve to enlighten those who wish to be enlightened. What's useful or useless often depends on the perspective.
    Last edited by narcus; 16th May 2009 at 09:40 PM.
    'Il mondo dei profumi č un universo senza limiti: una fraganza puo rievocare sensazioni, luoghi, persone o ancora condurre in uno spazio di nuove dimensioni emozionali' L. V.

  59. #59

    Default Re: Did Pierre Bourdon create Green Irish Tweed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Advocate View Post
    Bringing Armani or Chanel into this discussion is simply misdirection. The question here is does Creed lie or does Creed tell the truth? By the way, Armani doesn't claim to be 200 years old and that King George III wore Code for Men. Coco Chanel was a real person; Chanel marketing didn't simply make her up in the 1970s.

    I am not speaking here of the prestige of a brand, or the aspirations of its consumers. Some people undoubtedly buy Armani because the name carries prestige. Some people undoubtedly buy Chanel because they aspire to Coco's dazzling sense of style. Other people certainly buy Armani, or Chanel (or Creed, for that matter) on the inherent value of the perfume's composition.

    Some people like the way Creed perfumes smell. I respect that. Some people find Creed products to be a good value in terms of the pleasure that they receive in exchange for the price they pay. I respect that. I don't respect people presenting a lie as if it were the truth. I don't respect people making excuses for liars, either.
    "some people are emotionally invested in Creed's romantic image of itself, rather than any cold, clinical appraisal of a fragrance's inherent quality." this is your quote. I simply made the point that this is true in most perfume purchases and why I mentioned Chanel or Armani as examples. Look, I get it; something about the Creed marketing spiel and people that "buy it" pisses you off, but lets just rest it brother.
    Last edited by jathanas; 17th May 2009 at 01:20 AM.

  60. #60
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    Default Re: Did Pierre Bourdon create Green Irish Tweed?

    Quote Originally Posted by narcus View Post
    Any information that isn't intended misinformation can serve to enlighten those who wish to be enlightened. What's useful or useless often depends on the perspective.
    Music to my ears! (and coin in Google's pocket! )
    * * * *

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