Code of Conduct
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 1 2
Results 61 to 68 of 68
  1. #61

    Default Re: Price =/= Quality

    As I've gotten more and more into fragrances, I've tended to buy more and more fragrances with natural ingredients which tend to be more expensive and to me, so much higher quality that it justifies the price.

  2. #62
    Pollux's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    http://goo.gl/maps/XJ8rn
    Posts
    3,430

    Default Re: Price =/= Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by surreality View Post
    Education, upbringing and the dominant culture that one is immersed do affect one's tastes, but tastes are just preferences, and preferences (or any value judgments) are purely subjective in nature. Just because one has a higher level of education does not mean that their opinions about a matter of taste are any more objective than a total novice's.
    Yeas, I agree... to some extent. I am having in mind other conditions that can be qualified as "objective": take cow milk. Forensic anthropologists say that it was included in diets due to poor exposure to sunlight. That actually means individuals descending from people that used to live in areas with short sunlight spans have a bigger probability of liking milk than say, descendants or natives from the Andes - which, as a matter of fact, just don't drink it nor they eat cow milk-related products, like cheese. That is why the consumption of milk and milk - related products is typical of rich Peruvians, which most of them happen to be white, educated and rich.

    Quote Originally Posted by surreality View Post
    I think you are using perception in a different way than I am. For me, perceptions are those datum given to us by the senses; touch, taste, smell, sight and hearing. Marketing doesn't change our perceptions, it changes our conceptions; the ideas that we form about a percept.
    Well, you just made a point that is ground for some serious academic discussions in Marketing: is Marketing able to change attitudes? One opf tha ways to do it might be through concepts - "you may think this products does X, but it also does Y". The point is that the way these concepts are perceived are key - if I had a bad day due to factor Y, I will pay attention to the concept, but I won't buy it, and the resulting perception will be negative.

    Quote Originally Posted by surreality View Post
    I think knowing to much about the "behind the scenes" of the perfume business would take away some of the enjoyment we get from perfume. Just as a a film-maker doesn't watch films the same way the general public does, a perfumer would experience perfume in a totally different way than the average hobbyist.
    Yes, it may have a bad effect on the fun, but still, technical judgment might as well have a good impact in it. Well, I am sort of freaky in that sense. Guess it would work on me, don't know on you. That is why I mentioned that, ideally, one should enjoy this hobby without much ado, but a critical attitude does not harm anybody.

    A final word on taste formation and its relation with social background of individuals: Pierre Bourdieu studied extensively the way taste is shaped in a book called Distinction: A Social Critique of the Judgement of Taste. It has been quite criticised because of its deterministic approach. More on Bourdieu: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Bourdieu

    For a criticism on Bourdieu's approach, Bernard Lahire confronted the arguments in Distinction in a book called La Culture des Individues. There is a short article on him in the French Wikipaedia.

  3. #63

    Default Re: Price =/= Quality

    A very interesting thread...amidst the discussion of price-quality by SculptureofSoul theres the surreality-pollux show hidden within. The 'itchy and scratchy' (Simpsons) or 'Tales of the black freighter' (Watchmen) subshows so to speak
    -

  4. #64

    Default Re: Price =/= Quality

    Complexity = quality, according to most Basenoters, no?
    Wanted: a cap of Bvlgari Thé Vert

    Wanted: L' Artisan Timbuktu or Fragonard Concerto

    Feel free to visit Polderposh - a young up & coming Dutch fragrance blog!

  5. #65

    Default Re: Price =/= Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by Pollux View Post
    Yeas, I agree... to some extent. I am having in mind other conditions that can be qualified as "objective": take cow milk. Forensic anthropologists say that it was included in diets due to poor exposure to sunlight. That actually means individuals descending from people that used to live in areas with short sunlight spans have a bigger probability of liking milk than say, descendants or natives from the Andes - which, as a matter of fact, just don't drink it nor they eat cow milk-related products, like cheese. That is why the consumption of milk and milk - related products is typical of rich Peruvians, which most of them happen to be white, educated and rich.
    While it may be a fact that rich Peruvians eat more dairy than poorer indigenous peoples or that there is a correlation between length of daylight and dairy consumption, these facts have nothing to do with value judgments of quality which is the essence of the thread. We may prefer x over y and those preferences may be due to environmental, sociological, cultural influences and factors, but like I have been saying, preferences tell us about the subject and not the object that the subject prefers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pollux View Post
    Well, you just made a point that is ground for some serious academic discussions in Marketing: is Marketing able to change attitudes? One opf tha ways to do it might be through concepts - "you may think this products does X, but it also does Y". The point is that the way these concepts are perceived are key - if I had a bad day due to factor Y, I will pay attention to the concept, but I won't buy it, and the resulting perception will be negative.
    We are speaking two different languages here. For me a concept is a mental construct and not anything that can be perceived.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pollux View Post
    Yes, it may have a bad effect on the fun, but still, technical judgment might as well have a good impact in it. Well, I am sort of freaky in that sense. Guess it would work on me, don't know on you. That is why I mentioned that, ideally, one should enjoy this hobby without much ado, but a critical attitude does not harm anybody.
    A technical knowledge of perfume may enhance one's intellectual appreciation of the craft but I think it could very well negatively impact one's aesthetic appreciation, and for me, perfume is all about the aesthetic experience it provides.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pollux View Post
    A final word on taste formation and its relation with social background of individuals: Pierre Bourdieu studied extensively the way taste is shaped in a book called Distinction: A Social Critique of the Judgement of Taste. It has been quite criticised because of its deterministic approach. More on Bourdieu: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Bourdieu

    For a criticism on Bourdieu's approach, Bernard Lahire confronted the arguments in Distinction in a book called La Culture des Individues. There is a short article on him in the French Wikipaedia.
    Social rank may influence one's taste, and those with power may very well set the bar as far as what is tasteful in a specific cultural paradigm. It may also be the case that if one were to find themselves in a foreign culture that asking those in power about that cultures standards of taste may very well be the best way of learning about a culture's preferences. But you wouldn't be discovering any objective truth just a set of cultural defined preferences that have wide inter-subjective agreement.
    Last edited by surreality; 8th June 2009 at 01:24 AM.
    Seek not the favor of the multitude; it is seldom got by honest and lawful means. But seek the testimony of few; and number not voices, but weigh them. - Immanuel Kant

  6. #66
    Pollux's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    http://goo.gl/maps/XJ8rn
    Posts
    3,430

    Default Re: Price =/= Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by surreality View Post
    While it may be a fact that rich Peruvians eat more dairy than poorer indigenous peoples or that there is a correlation between length of daylight and dairy consumption, these facts have nothing to do with value judgments of quality which is the essence of the thread. We may prefer x over y and those preferences may be due to environmental, sociological, cultural influences and factors, but like I have been saying, preferences tell us about the subject and not the object that the subject prefers.
    Let's put it this way in order to see if I understand your point: an individual unfamiliar with cheese is able to express a judgment on it as well as an expert. These judgements tells us things about the subjects expressing their opinion, not the object being judged.

    I take it across cultures - mapuches in Southern Chile and caucasians in Sao Paulo, Brazil. But within the same culture I don't thinkl it would be so: product development would be impossible for conclusions on product's attributes would be impossible - even though I accept there are social constructs around product perception.

    Quote Originally Posted by surreality View Post
    We are speaking two different languages here. For me a concept is a mental construct and not anything that can be perceived.
    Your are right, different operational definitions is not a good bases for a discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by surreality View Post
    A technical knowledge of perfume may enhance one's intellectual appreciation of the craft but I think it could very well negatively impact one's aesthetic appreciation, and for me, perfume is all about the aesthetic experience it provides.
    I wonder if perfume designers ("Nez", or however the word is spelled) ever use perfumes. But, on the other hand, I don't think technical know-how invalidates aesthetics experiences. That would mean that a panel conformed by experts are not suited for granting prices, which are based on technical as well as aesthetic criteria.

    Quote Originally Posted by surreality View Post
    Social rank may influence one's taste, and those with power may very well set the bar as far as what is tasteful in a specific cultural paradigm. It may also be the case that if one were to find themselves in a foreign culture that asking those in power about that cultures standards of taste may very well be the best way of learning about a culture's preferences. But you wouldn't be discovering any objective truth just a set of cultural defined preferences that have wide inter-subjective agreement.
    Indeed, but at least, you get an idea where things are like: Brazilian Sprite is extremely sweet while German Sprite is very acid. Coca Cola (as well as many other food an drink corporationss) know this and develop products accordingly. Isn't this an objective truth?

    I feel like reading Hacking's The Social Construction of What?

    (BTW; enjoying this discussion a lot!)

  7. #67

    Default Re: Price =/= Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by Stereotomy View Post
    Complexity = quality, according to most Basenoters, no?
    :toppie: damn right .

  8. #68

    Default Re: Price =/= Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by Pollux View Post
    Let's put it this way in order to see if I understand your point: an individual unfamiliar with cheese is able to express a judgment on it as well as an expert. These judgements tells us things about the subjects expressing their opinion, not the object being judged.
    If one is unfamiliar with a product then it follows that one cannot make any value judgment about that product. However, to use your earlier analogy, if a person is familiar with both Brie and Velvetta and says that the Brie is of higher quality than the Velvetta based solely on one's preference then one is making a purely subjective analysis based on one's own tastes. That is exactly what SoS was doing in the opening post when he wrote "Old Spice is dead cheap and still smells higher quality than a lot of stuff out there, imo." That is why I asked what criteria for assessing "quality" was being used, as it seemed that SoS was using a subjective idea of quality to make his argument that price doe not equal quality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pollux View Post
    I wonder if perfume designers ("Nez", or however the word is spelled) ever use perfumes. But, on the other hand, I don't think technical know-how invalidates aesthetics experiences. That would mean that a panel conformed by experts are not suited for granting prices, which are based on technical as well as aesthetic criteria.
    I think I read somewhere that Serge Lutens very rarely wears fragrance.

    Technical knowledge may not invalidate aesthetic experience of a fragrance but it changes the way we approach a fragrance. Using the film-maker analogy again; a film-maker may very well go see a movie and enjoy for its aesthetic content but will watch the movie in a very different way than a regular movie-goer.

    As for your suggestion that fragrances are priced based on technical details and aesthetic criteria I must disagree. For most perfumes the price point is set before the perfumer even gets the brief, not after the perfume is finished.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pollux View Post
    Indeed, but at least, you get an idea where things are like: Brazilian Sprite is extremely sweet while German Sprite is very acid. Coca Cola (as well as many other food an drink corporationss) know this and develop products accordingly. Isn't this an objective truth?
    That one group like Sprite sweet while another group likes it more acidic is an objective fact; but if the Brazilian were to say that the sweet Sprite was of better quality than the acidic Sprite or vise versa then that value judgment is purely subjective.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pollux View Post
    (BTW; enjoying this discussion a lot!)
    Me too.
    Last edited by surreality; 8th June 2009 at 10:37 PM.
    Seek not the favor of the multitude; it is seldom got by honest and lawful means. But seek the testimony of few; and number not voices, but weigh them. - Immanuel Kant

Similar Threads

  1. Bond No. 9: Your thaughts on Price vs. Quality...
    By DULLAH in forum Male Fragrance Discussion
    Replies: 30
    Last Post: 18th December 2008, 06:24 PM
  2. Purchased 3 colonges at a ridiculously cheap price
    By ngtmare in forum Male Fragrance Discussion
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 23rd April 2008, 01:14 AM
  3. Does a higher price equal better quality?
    By Allen-on-Holiday in forum Male Fragrance Discussion
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 13th April 2006, 12:44 PM
  4. Superfine quality Hermes handbags with novel  
    By ida80 in forum Fashion and Style
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 13th April 2006, 12:40 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  



Loving perfume on the Internet since 2000