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  1. #1

    Default Heliotrope / Heliotropin

    Compiled from the Note Identification Project Thread:

    Heliotropin
    , 2% concentration in carrier oil: it smells warm, powdery, vanillic, but unmistakeably floral to my nose. The scent is delicate and fleeting. I cannot detect any almond-y facet - on the other hand, I think the cherry pie-like aspect is there. To give you an impression, it smells much more like Serge Lutens Rahat Loukoum than, say, Etro Heliotrope, where I guess a generous amount of another component smelling like almonds was used. SL Rahat Loukoum: fresh white almond, crushed cherry pits, hawthorn, heliotrope, Turkish rose, balsam, tonka bean, aldehydes, white honey, musk and vanilla. Etro Heliotrope, with notes of heliotrope, sweet almond, vanilla, fruit notes, ylang-ylang, and petit grain. Mazzolari Alessandro: bitter almonds, honey, heliotrope, and vanilla.

    Heliotropin: nothing much, when I try hard I smell sweet, powdery cherry. Not the harsh, cough medicine, Louve-like cherry I was expecting.

    Heliotropin Ė Delicate, too weak for me to smell at this concentration. Smooth, cherry-vanilla aroma, but not gourmand. I like it a lot, but I wish it was stronger.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Heliotrope / Heliotropin

    Hi Asha, this note interests me. I (may be one of the few who) really like J.C.Ellena's Eau d'Hiver and I think L.T. made a passing comment in The Guide to the effect 'wonder how he got by IFRA using heliotrope?' Is is another IFRA hot potato? Which leads to the question in my mind which I haven't seen anwered anywhere about Apres L'Ondee Parfum being taken off the market because some of the components didn't comply with IFRA - heliotrope? The EDT is still out there so what meant the Parfum had to go but EDT could stay?

    For the record this whole note project series is amazing - thank you and (Grant?) anyone else involved
    Last edited by mr. reasonable; 16th August 2009 at 05:52 PM.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Heliotrope / Heliotropin

    I must confess I did not know Heliotrope would be subject to regulation--it seems innocuous enough! One of our BNers sent me a student perfumery project which seemed to have it, so it is at least being encouragee as a perfumer's palette constituent within official perfumer's education.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Heliotrope / Heliotropin

    I am not aware of any IFRA restriction on the use of heliotopin (piperonal). I just searched the IFRA database by names and CAS # and could find no mention of heliotropin.
    All these moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Heliotrope / Heliotropin

    Thanks both for the clarification
    Last edited by mr. reasonable; 18th August 2009 at 03:44 PM.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Heliotrope / Heliotropin

    Well, here we go again. I confess I haven't studied the IFRA paperwork but in a new pdf downloaded from The Perfumes (LT & TS) Site with some very recent reviews, on FLOWER ESSENTIALLE (Kenzo):

    "Powdery effects were the province of heliotropin before EU regulations drastically restricted its use. Demachy's composition somehow gets around this with what feels like a mixture of vanillin, musk and helional."

    More or less the same thing he was saying about Eau d'Hiver in The Guide (although there he was questioning how JCE had GOT ROUND the restrictions and used heliotropin to the extent he did).

    It seems unlikely (thought not impossible, of course) that LT would be mistaken about this? I'll dig around and see if I can shed any light on it . . . I am still interested to know why Guerlain would pull Apres L'Ondee Parfum given it's popularity. Till next time
    Last edited by mr. reasonable; 25th November 2009 at 05:50 PM.

  7. #7
    N_Tesla's Avatar
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    Question Re: Heliotrope / Heliotropin

    Asha; Is it Heliotropin that gives Le Parfum by Barbara Bui that warn vanilla-powdery quality?



    Quote Originally Posted by Asha View Post
    Compiled from the Note Identification Project Thread:

    Heliotropin
    , 2% concentration in carrier oil: it smells warm, powdery, vanillic, but unmistakeably floral to my nose. The scent is delicate and fleeting. I cannot detect any almond-y facet - on the other hand, I think the cherry pie-like aspect is there. To give you an impression, it smells much more like Serge Lutens Rahat Loukoum than, say, Etro Heliotrope, where I guess a generous amount of another component smelling like almonds was used. SL Rahat Loukoum: fresh white almond, crushed cherry pits, hawthorn, heliotrope, Turkish rose, balsam, tonka bean, aldehydes, white honey, musk and vanilla. Etro Heliotrope, with notes of heliotrope, sweet almond, vanilla, fruit notes, ylang-ylang, and petit grain. Mazzolari Alessandro: bitter almonds, honey, heliotrope, and vanilla.

    Heliotropin: nothing much, when I try hard I smell sweet, powdery cherry. Not the harsh, cough medicine, Louve-like cherry I was expecting.

    Heliotropin – Delicate, too weak for me to smell at this concentration. Smooth, cherry-vanilla aroma, but not gourmand. I like it a lot, but I wish it was stronger.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Heliotrope / Heliotropin

    Mr.R, I read that too, in the newest PDF released by LT and TS. I really don't know what to make of it. However, I think it is possible that the chemical was restricted from a prior regulation, and that now its limitations are mostly status quo.

    Tesla, I have never smelled Barbara Bui, and also never smelled heliotropin in isolation. I do have whisperingleaves' kit here, so I cans see if it contains a sample. Still that doesn't help the fact that I never smelled BB

  9. #9

    Default Re: Heliotrope / Heliotropin

    Questions from another thread compelled me to find out more about benzaldehyde as a possible common component of heliotrope, bitter almond and cherry...

    According to this web site, heliotrope and bitter almond have the same main component in common, benzaldehyde:

    http://www.bojensen.net/EssentialOilsEng/EssentialOils13A/EssentialOils13A.htm#Heliotrope

    http://www.bojensen.net/EssentialOil...s04.htm#Bitter

    Here is a useful source that lists different suppliers of benzaldehyde and the scent characteristics of some of them. Many descriptors state almond, cherry or both. Click through to the suppliers, eg, Vigon, to see the spec sheet and aromatic description (in this case, "characteristic cherry"):

    http://www.thegoodscentscompany.com/data/rw1001491.html

    Here is a Google Books excerpt which talks about how benzaldehyde is the main component in cherry juice and how benzaldehyde is important as an ingredient in synthetic cherry flavorings:

    http://books.google.com/books?id=_Ov...cherry&f=false

  10. #10

    Default Re: Heliotrope / Heliotropin

    I thought I'd add this here since it came up in a related thread in the DIY section.

    Heliotropine is an aroma chemical that can be synthesised cheaply and extracted from natural sources more expensively.

    Heliotropine was discovered in 1869 by Fittig and Mielk who synthesised it and thus made the 'cherry pie' note of the Heliotrope flower, for which it is named, available to perfumers for the first time. It is used for vanilla or almond accords or to bring a balsamic character and also has powdery, floral aspects.

    Heliotropine (or Piperonal - they are the same molecule) occurs naturally in a range of botanicals including dill, violet flowers, black pepper and others and is also commonly used as a flavouring, where the natural extract is more commonly used. Perfumers normally work with the cheaper synthetic version.

    Reading through the other questions in this thread I can also confirm that there is no current IFRA restriction on the use of heliotropine in fragrances, however there are restrictions in most countries to working with the pure material due to its use as a precursor chemical in the production of the psychoactive drug MDMA. In most administrations a government issued license is required to use or own it.
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  11. #11
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    Default Re: Heliotrope / Heliotropin

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Bartlett View Post
    I thought I'd add this here since it came up in a related thread in the DIY section.

    Heliotropine is an aroma chemical that can be synthesised cheaply and extracted from natural sources more expensively.

    Heliotropine was discovered in 1869 by Fittig and Mielk who synthesised it and thus made the 'cherry pie' note of the Heliotrope flower, for which it is named, available to perfumers for the first time. It is used for vanilla or almond accords or to bring a balsamic character and also has powdery, floral aspects.

    Heliotropine (or Piperonal - they are the same molecule) occurs naturally in a range of botanicals including dill, violet flowers, black pepper and others and is also commonly used as a flavouring, where the natural extract is more commonly used. Perfumers normally work with the cheaper synthetic version.

    Reading through the other questions in this thread I can also confirm that there is no current IFRA restriction on the use of heliotropine in fragrances, however there are restrictions in most countries to working with the pure material due to its use as a precursor chemical in the production of the psychoactive drug MDMA. In most administrations a government issued license is required to use or own it.
    Is the natural extract pricey?

  12. #12

    Default Re: Heliotrope / Heliotropin

    Quote Originally Posted by hednic View Post
    Is the natural extract pricey?
    It's available at about £800 / Kg (as compared to the synthetic where you can buy 20Kg for that).
    ďA person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person
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    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

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