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  1. #1

    Default Who created Miss Balmain?

    I was reading about Germaine Cellier and her creations and found that she has created a fragrance Madame Balmain somewhere in 40-50. Well, I never heard about this fragrance, but we all know Miss Balmain created in 1967. Unfortunately it's difficult to find out if Germaine Cellier was the one who created Miss Balmain. So, does anyone knows the following:

    - Is there such a fragrance as Madame Balmain created by Germaine Cellier? When?
    - Who created Miss Balmain? Was it Germaine Cellier or someone else?
    - Who made the bottles for Balmain (I mean classic bottles - square shaped with round black top and black label with white writings)?

    Does anyone know? It would be also nice if you could give a source where you found information. Thanks in advance.
    Anais Nin: "And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom"
    Link to my perfumery blog: http://aromax-on-line.blogspot.com/

  2. #2

    Default Re: Who created Miss Balmain?

    Harry Cutler I believe.

    I remember reading on some of the blogs...I believe Victoria from Boisdejasmin mentioned it.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Who created Miss Balmain?

    Quote Originally Posted by sofresh View Post
    Harry Cutler I believe.

    I remember reading on some of the blogs...I believe Victoria from Boisdejasmin mentioned it.
    Thanks for your answer, sofresh.

    Googling Harry Cutler and Balmain together gives reviews of PerfumeShrine, Bois de Jasmin (in her comments) and Olfactorama and they all mention Harry Cutler as a nose behind this fragrance. One personal mystery less...
    Anais Nin: "And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom"
    Link to my perfumery blog: http://aromax-on-line.blogspot.com/

  4. #4

    Default Re: Who created Miss Balmain?

    I was always under the impression that Miss Balmain was a daughter of Miss Dior and a travelling salesman (luxury goods, of course).

    Nah, just giving you hard time.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Who created Miss Balmain?

    Quote Originally Posted by AromaX View Post
    I was reading about Germaine Cellier and her creations and found that she has created a fragrance Madame Balmain somewhere in 40-50. Well, I never heard about this fragrance, but we all know Miss Balmain created in 1967. Unfortunately it's difficult to find out if Germaine Cellier was the one who created Miss Balmain. So, does anyone knows the following:

    - Is there such a fragrance as Madame Balmain created by Germaine Cellier? When?
    - Who created Miss Balmain? Was it Germaine Cellier or someone else?

    Does anyone know? It would be also nice if you could give a source where you found information. Thanks in advance.
    Germaine Cellier did create a fragrance for Balmain, in 1953. It was not Miss Balmain, nor was it called "Madame Balmain." Cellier's creation was Jolie Madame.

  6. #6
    Hillaire
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    Default Re: Who created Miss Balmain?

    According to another site, Cellier also created Miss Balmain, which i have always assumed, too, I guess because I had heard she did Jolie Madame, and there always appeared to be her signature there... Funny...

  7. #7

    Default Re: Who created Miss Balmain?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hillaire View Post
    According to another site, Cellier also created Miss Balmain, which i have always assumed, too, I guess because I had heard she did Jolie Madame, and there always appeared to be her signature there... Funny...
    I see that Fragrantica notes Cellier as the perfumer for Miss Balmain. The folks at Perfumeshrine and Bois de Jasmin do some serious fact checking before posting information. From what I have read on their site, the information posted on Fragrantica is sometimes peppered with errors.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Who created Miss Balmain?

    Quote Originally Posted by Advocate View Post
    Germaine Cellier did create a fragrance for Balmain, in 1953. It was not Miss Balmain, nor was it called "Madame Balmain." Cellier's creation was Jolie Madame.
    Of course, Jolie Madame is a fragrance made by Cellier. But according to Perfume Intelligence the fragrance Madame Balmain do exists and is created somewhere in 40-50's. The same information you can find on Now Smell This Blog. But unfortunately I can't find any other facts about this fragrance.

    By the way. Here are all the perfumes I could find to be created by Germaine Cellier:

    Balmain Madame Balmain (Perfume Intelligence and Now Smell This mention it)
    Balmain Monsieur Balmain (first created by Germaine as Verveine Citronelle in 1949 and later renamed in 1964 in Eau de Monsieur Balmain; in 1990 reformulated by Calice Becker and since than is known as Monsnieur Balmain)
    Balmain Vent Vert (1945) - reformulated by Calice Bekker either in 1990 or 1991, and later by Nathalie Feisthouer in 1999
    Balmain Elysées 63.84 (either in 1947 or in 1956) - named after the telephone number of the House of Balmain
    Balmain Jolie Madame (1953)

    Sometimes mentioned as Created by Germaine Cellier, but in fact created by Harry Culter - Balmain Miss Balmain (1968).

    Robert Piguet Bandit (1944)
    It's not clear if Robert Piguet Visa (1945) is created by Germaine Cellier or not.
    Robert Piguet Fracas (1948)

    Balenciaga La Fuite des Heures/Fleeting Moment (1947) - Cellier is one of the co-authors

    Hermes Eau d'herbes
    Last edited by AromaX; 15th November 2009 at 08:03 PM.
    Anais Nin: "And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom"
    Link to my perfumery blog: http://aromax-on-line.blogspot.com/

  9. #9

    Talking Re: Who created Miss Balmain?

    Quote Originally Posted by Twolf View Post
    I was always under the impression that Miss Balmain was a daughter of Miss Dior and a travelling salesman (luxury goods, of course).

    Nah, just giving you hard time.
    Anyway - I do love your version very much!
    Anais Nin: "And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom"
    Link to my perfumery blog: http://aromax-on-line.blogspot.com/

  10. #10

    Default Re: Who created Miss Balmain?

    Quote Originally Posted by AromaX View Post
    Of course, Jolie Madame is a fragrance made by Cellier. But according to Perfume Intelligence the fragrance Madame Balmain do exists and is created somewhere in 40-50's. The same information you can find on Now Smell This Blog. But unfortunately I can't find any other facts about this fragrance.
    I have tried to locate references to "Madame Balmain." The two references that are quoted above the the only two references in the entire, wide internet.

    We have two possible answers for this situation. I suppose that it is possible that there once was a fragrance called "Madame Balmain" created by one of the most famous perfumers of the twentieth century, and that every single reference to it has been obliterated from the historical record, except for these two. Or, someone at Perfume Intelligence could have made a transcription error, and Now Smell This could have repeated that error when compiling the perfume house and perfumer indices. I submit that it is far likelier that "Madame Balmain" never existed.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Who created Miss Balmain?

    Quote Originally Posted by Advocate View Post
    I have tried to locate references to "Madame Balmain." The two references that are quoted above the the only two references in the entire, wide internet.

    We have two possible answers for this situation. I suppose that it is possible that there once was a fragrance called "Madame Balmain" created by one of the most famous perfumers of the twentieth century, and that every single reference to it has been obliterated from the historical record, except for these two. Or, someone at Perfume Intelligence could have made a transcription error, and Now Smell This could have repeated that error when compiling the perfume house and perfumer indices. I submit that it is far likelier that "Madame Balmain" never existed.
    It's not entirely true. There are two more references for the fragrance "Madame Balmain". If you google for it in a book section than you can find the following:

    1. Forbes, Volume 152 by Bertie Charles Forbes, 1993 - unfortunately you can see only a small part of the text from this book. It says: "Speculation is that Fayer intends to use Alfin to distribute Balmain perfumes, which include Ivoire de Balmain and Madame Balmain, as well as Fayer's other fragrances Jacomo and Jean Desprez..."
    It's strange to read the connection between Erich Feyer who bought Balmain in 1991 and "Madame Balmain". Was it a real perfume known and sold in 1991? Why there is nothing to find on Internet on this fragrance? I do share your skepticism, but I wouldn't say there was no such a fragrance for sure.

    2. Perfume by Susan Irvine, 1995 - again only a very small part of text is available.
    "...Cellier. This modern genius also concocted Jolie Madame and Madame Balmain for Balmain, and Fracas, and the great Bandit for..."
    Well, I don't know Susan Irvine and it's funny to read about a "modern genius" when Cellier is mentioned. But probably you can understand it better when reading the whole part.

    Of course those still can be mistakes. That is why it's interesting to find the reliable sources.

    In his book "My years and seasons" Pierre Balmain seems to mention Cellier only once as a creator of "Elysée 64/83" (if goolge search within books hasn't mis any other references).

    And if "Madame Balmain" was an existing perfume and was discontinued a long time ago than I can understand why you can't find information on it on Internet. Well it should remain in the memory of perfumistas... but probably it was a bad reformulation of the famous perfumer Cellier and wasn't popular? Ok, those are speculations. I just hope there is someone who might know more... or otherwise... probably there was never such a fragrance "Madame Balmain".
    Last edited by AromaX; 15th November 2009 at 09:47 PM.
    Anais Nin: "And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom"
    Link to my perfumery blog: http://aromax-on-line.blogspot.com/

  12. #12
    Hillaire
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    Default Re: Who created Miss Balmain?

    Quote Originally Posted by 3xasif View Post
    I see that Fragrantica notes Cellier as the perfumer for Miss Balmain. The folks at Perfumeshrine and Bois de Jasmin do some serious fact checking before posting information. From what I have read on their site, the information posted on Fragrantica is sometimes peppered with errors.
    Duly Noted!

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Who created Miss Balmain?

    @AromaX, I realize that your original question was directed towards Miss Balmain but when you mentioned the Robert Piguet fragrances, I had to step in. Germaine Cellier was the original perfumer, but in some cases not the only one. Rather than spread misinformation, it's simple to check the company website where they tell you the names of the perfumers for each fragrance.

    http://www.robertpiguetparfums.com/parfums.php

    Joe Garces is the president of Robert Piguet USA & a friend of mine. The information is quite reliable. Joe worked hard to get the formulas as close to Germaine Cellier's original as possible. Bandit went through a weird floral phase prior to Joe but I do not know who the perfumer was for that incarnation of Bandit.
    Last edited by RHM; 15th November 2009 at 11:41 PM.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Who created Miss Balmain?

    In conducting any research, sometimes one comes across contradictory information that must be resolved one way or the other. Obviously, conducting research on the internet is no different. In these situations, simple logic and common sense are invaluable. For example, if 99 sources say that the Battle of Hastings occurred in 1066, and 1 source says it was 1166, I think that we can assume that the first figure is the more reliable one without losing any sleep at night over it.

    In this situation, let us evaluate what we have. "Madame Balmain" is mentioned in a 1995 book on perfume; a Forbes magazine article on the House of Balmain's finances; Perfume Intelligence's awful web site; and in passing in the Now Smell This index. Could there have been a "Madame Balmain?" Maybe, I suppose.

    However, let us evaluate the other side of the scales. The internet is absolutely awash with sites devoted to perfume and perfume collecting. And out of all of those sites collecting information on perfumes (Basenotes' own Directory, Perfume of Life, the Fragrance Foundation, and any other place that Google has indexed), not one mentions "Madame Balmain." Not one bottle of "Madame Balmain" for sale in the Google marketplace or on ebay. Not one magazine ad for "Madame Balmain" scanned in. I posit that fragrances, even unsuccessful ones, do not disappear so completely.

    Could those lonely four sources have simply been mistaken? Could one have made a mistake and the other three copied it? Let's explore that as a theory. Germaine Cellier really did create a fragrance for Balmain, and she really did it in the 1950s, and it really had "Madame" in the name. Also, Balmain did a different fragrance that was called "Miss Balmain." It would have been an easy error to make.

    Can we possibly get any more definitive than that? I'm afraid that life is not like that. One cannot prove the non-existence of something; it is a logical impossibility. There will be no definitive authority that will positively state, "There was no Germain Cellier creation ever called 'Madame Balmain.'" There will simply be no entry for a "Madame Balmain," as in this case, and we will have to infer from our logic and common sense that the utter lack of such an entry means that there is no such creature.

  15. #15
    Hillaire
    Guest

    Default Re: Who created Miss Balmain?

    Quote Originally Posted by Advocate View Post
    In conducting any research, sometimes one comes across contradictory information that must be resolved one way or the other. Obviously, conducting research on the internet is no different. In these situations, simple logic and common sense are invaluable. For example, if 99 sources say that the Battle of Hastings occurred in 1066, and 1 source says it was 1166, I think that we can assume that the first figure is the more reliable one without losing any sleep at night over it.

    In this situation, let us evaluate what we have. "Madame Balmain" is mentioned in a 1995 book on perfume; a Forbes magazine article on the House of Balmain's finances; Perfume Intelligence's awful web site; and in passing in the Now Smell This index. Could there have been a "Madame Balmain?" Maybe, I suppose.

    However, let us evaluate the other side of the scales. The internet is absolutely awash with sites devoted to perfume and perfume collecting. And out of all of those sites collecting information on perfumes (Basenotes' own Directory, Perfume of Life, the Fragrance Foundation, and any other place that Google has indexed), not one mentions "Madame Balmain." Not one bottle of "Madame Balmain" for sale in the Google marketplace or on ebay. Not one magazine ad for "Madame Balmain" scanned in. I posit that fragrances, even unsuccessful ones, do not disappear so completely.

    Could those lonely four sources have simply been mistaken? Could one have made a mistake and the other three copied it? Let's explore that as a theory. Germaine Cellier really did create a fragrance for Balmain, and she really did it in the 1950s, and it really had "Madame" in the name. Also, Balmain did a different fragrance that was called "Miss Balmain." It would have been an easy error to make.

    Can we possibly get any more definitive than that? I'm afraid that life is not like that. One cannot prove the non-existence of something; it is a logical impossibility. There will be no definitive authority that will positively state, "There was no Germain Cellier creation ever called 'Madame Balmain.'" There will simply be no entry for a "Madame Balmain," as in this case, and we will have to infer from our logic and common sense that the utter lack of such an entry means that there is no such creature.
    Good point! I am sure it was a combination of Jolie Madame and Miss Balmain; that makes perfect sense.

    Though I have encountered a couple of scents, which really do seem to have slid under the radar. Though not from major houses or perfumers...
    Last edited by Hillaire; 16th November 2009 at 04:52 AM.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Who created Miss Balmain?

    Quote Originally Posted by RHM View Post
    @AromaX, I realize that your original question was directed towards Miss Balmain but when you mentioned the Robert Piguet fragrances, I had to step in. Germaine Cellier was the original perfumer, but in some cases not the only one. Rather than spread misinformation, it's simple to check the company website where they tell you the names of the perfumers for each fragrance.

    http://www.robertpiguetparfums.com/parfums.php

    Joe Garces is the president of Robert Piguet USA & a friend of mine. The information is quite reliable. Joe worked hard to get the formulas as close to Germaine Cellier's original as possible. Bandit went through a weird floral phase prior to Joe but I do not know who the perfumer was for that incarnation of Bandit.
    Thanks for your answer, RHM.

    Well - the original question was about Balmain. But I am really interested to get information on perfumes created by Germaine Cellier.

    Unfortunately, I can't find any information on perfumers on the website of Robert Piguet (following the link you provided). Only short marketing descriptions of notes and fragrance itself and pyramid in pictures.

    When you mention the fact Cellier was not the only perfumer created some of "her scents", do you mean she was co-operating with someone? Or the fact her perfumes were reformulated later?

    Because it's easy to find that she was the perfumer behind Bandit and Fracas. Some sources mention VIsa as well, but I am doubting it it's true. May be it was created in a cooperation? Or by someone else?

    Fleeting Moments is the only fragrance so far I found to be created in cooperation with Cellier (don't know who were the other perfumers).

    It's also known that Cellier was working together with Arden. Not sure which fragrances she created for Arden (ans was it in cooperation or not).
    Anais Nin: "And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom"
    Link to my perfumery blog: http://aromax-on-line.blogspot.com/

  17. #17

    Default Re: Who created Miss Balmain?

    Quote Originally Posted by Advocate View Post
    In conducting any research, sometimes one comes across contradictory information that must be resolved one way or the other. Obviously, conducting research on the internet is no different. In these situations, simple logic and common sense are invaluable. For example, if 99 sources say that the Battle of Hastings occurred in 1066, and 1 source says it was 1166, I think that we can assume that the first figure is the more reliable one without losing any sleep at night over it.

    In this situation, let us evaluate what we have. "Madame Balmain" is mentioned in a 1995 book on perfume; a Forbes magazine article on the House of Balmain's finances; Perfume Intelligence's awful web site; and in passing in the Now Smell This index. Could there have been a "Madame Balmain?" Maybe, I suppose.

    However, let us evaluate the other side of the scales. The internet is absolutely awash with sites devoted to perfume and perfume collecting. And out of all of those sites collecting information on perfumes (Basenotes' own Directory, Perfume of Life, the Fragrance Foundation, and any other place that Google has indexed), not one mentions "Madame Balmain." Not one bottle of "Madame Balmain" for sale in the Google marketplace or on ebay. Not one magazine ad for "Madame Balmain" scanned in. I posit that fragrances, even unsuccessful ones, do not disappear so completely.

    Could those lonely four sources have simply been mistaken? Could one have made a mistake and the other three copied it? Let's explore that as a theory. Germaine Cellier really did create a fragrance for Balmain, and she really did it in the 1950s, and it really had "Madame" in the name. Also, Balmain did a different fragrance that was called "Miss Balmain." It would have been an easy error to make.

    Can we possibly get any more definitive than that? I'm afraid that life is not like that. One cannot prove the non-existence of something; it is a logical impossibility. There will be no definitive authority that will positively state, "There was no Germain Cellier creation ever called 'Madame Balmain.'" There will simply be no entry for a "Madame Balmain," as in this case, and we will have to infer from our logic and common sense that the utter lack of such an entry means that there is no such creature.
    I do appreciate your input, Advocate.

    It all makes sense. Just two small nuances.

    When you can't find anything (or two little) about a perfume (or anything else), it's logic to doubt in existence of such a perfume. Although you can also ask if there is an explanation for that fact. Why could it be extremely rare? Very limited edition? Very short life? Perfume made for personal use? On another hand such an approach might be against the Occam's razor principle in this case.

    You can't prove nonexistence. But I guess there may be some reliable sources who's meaning on that questions is significant. For example, it's possible to write to ask the House of Balmain. If they say there was no "Madame Balmain" in the history of this house, it would be a serious argument. What other reliable sources might be? Osmotheque? Reliable historicist specializing on perfumes (Octavian comes into my mind)?

    Another possibility is to contact with four information sources mentioned above and ask them about their sources - where did they take information from? That would be the especially helpful to understand the possible mistakes.

    I am not sure if it's worth the efforts. Accepting the fact of non-existence of "Miss Balmain" is much easier in this case.

    By the way - what is your experience with the Perfume Intelligence website? I mean - why do you call it "awful"?
    Anais Nin: "And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom"
    Link to my perfumery blog: http://aromax-on-line.blogspot.com/

  18. #18

    Default Re: Who created Miss Balmain?

    Well, to find more facts about the mysterious "Madame Balmain" perfume (which even might never existed) I asked Robin, the editor of Now Smell This as well as team of Perfume Intelligence about the sources they used for their research on the creations of Germaine Cellier.

    So far I've got an answer from Robin who told me that Madame Balmain was mentioned as a creation of Germaine Cellier in "Classification des Parfums et Terminologie", the book issued by Société française des parfumeurs. Well, it's a reliable source of information I guess. If there is a mistake than it should be there. But there is also a possibility that Madame Balmain indeed existed.
    Last edited by AromaX; 16th November 2009 at 01:05 PM.
    Anais Nin: "And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom"
    Link to my perfumery blog: http://aromax-on-line.blogspot.com/

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Who created Miss Balmain?

    Quote Originally Posted by AromaX View Post
    Thanks for your answer, RHM.

    Well - the original question was about Balmain. But I am really interested to get information on perfumes created by Germaine Cellier.

    Unfortunately, I can't find any information on perfumers on the website of Robert Piguet (following the link you provided). Only short marketing descriptions of notes and fragrance itself and pyramid in pictures.

    When you mention the fact Cellier was not the only perfumer created some of "her scents", do you mean she was co-operating with someone? Or the fact her perfumes were reformulated later?

    Because it's easy to find that she was the perfumer behind Bandit and Fracas. Some sources mention VIsa as well, but I am doubting it it's true. May be it was created in a cooperation? Or by someone else?

    Fleeting Moments is the only fragrance so far I found to be created in cooperation with Cellier (don't know who were the other perfumers).

    It's also known that Cellier was working together with Arden. Not sure which fragrances she created for Arden (ans was it in cooperation or not).
    See at the bottom of the section for each scent where it says "read more". Click on that & it takes you to the info about the perfumers.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Who created Miss Balmain?

    Quote Originally Posted by RHM View Post
    See at the bottom of the section for each scent where it says "read more". Click on that & it takes you to the info about the perfumers.
    That's exactly what I did. And it brings me a lovely pyramid of each scent with pictures of ingredients. And the "close" button next to it. Nothing else - no information on perfumers.
    Anais Nin: "And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom"
    Link to my perfumery blog: http://aromax-on-line.blogspot.com/

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Who created Miss Balmain?

    When I click on it, I see pictures of notes on the left & a paragraph on the right. In the paragraph on the right is where it gives the information about the perfumer. It's right there.

  22. #22

    Thumbs up Re: Who created Miss Balmain?

    I can not find the nose of MISS BALMAIN, but it was not Mme Germaine Cellier , as stated by Fragrantica, and VISA was created by Jean-Charles and reformulated by Aurelien Guichard in 1999.
    Also on Basenotes fragrance directory appears Francis Camail as the nose of EAU D'HADRIEN, which is not correct. EAU D' HADRIEN was created by Henry Sorsona
    Have I told you about the scent of jasmine? Have I spoken about the smell of the sea? The earth is scented. And I perfume myself to enhance what I am. That's why I can not wear a perfume that bothers me. Perfuming is an instinctive wisdom. And like all art, it requires some knowledge of yourself..."
    Clarice Lispector ( 1920-1977) - Perfumes da Terra / Earth
    Perfumes

  23. #23

    Default Re: Who created Miss Balmain?

    Quote Originally Posted by RHM View Post
    When I click on it, I see pictures of notes on the left & a paragraph on the right. In the paragraph on the right is where it gives the information about the perfumer. It's right there.
    Finally I found it. It looks like Firefox can't show the webpage properly. It shows only the picture and no paragraph next to it. But I could see all the information using the IE8. Indeed - they say that Visa is created by Jean-Charles and Germaine Cellier. Thanks.

    By the way - it's unbelievable that those perfumers could work together (see the comment below).
    Last edited by AromaX; 16th November 2009 at 03:40 PM.
    Anais Nin: "And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom"
    Link to my perfumery blog: http://aromax-on-line.blogspot.com/

  24. #24

    Default Re: Who created Miss Balmain?

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERTO View Post
    I can not find the nose of MISS BALMAIN, but it was not Mme Germaine Cellier , as stated by Fragrantica, and VISA was created by Jean-Charles and reformulated by Aurelien Guichard in 1999.
    Also on Basenotes fragrance directory appears Francis Camail as the nose of EAU D'HADRIEN, which is not correct. EAU D' HADRIEN was created by Henry Sorsona
    Roberto, it's difficult to talk when you don't mention any sources to support your statements.
    As mentioned before Miss Balmain is probably created by Harry Cutler (you can see the sources in the comments above).
    Visa seems to be created by both Jean-Charles and Germaine Cellier as found on Robert Piguet website.
    It's still a question if Madame Balmain was a real fragrance created by Cellier or is it a myth created from misunderstandings.

    Although... if I recall a rigorous work of Jean-Charles who was very precise about finding an olfactory balance between notes and Germaine Cellier trends to use overdose of creepy raw materials... I wonder how they could cooperate together...
    Anais Nin: "And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom"
    Link to my perfumery blog: http://aromax-on-line.blogspot.com/

  25. #25

    Thumbs up Re: Who created Miss Balmain?

    Quote Originally Posted by AromaX View Post
    Roberto, it's difficult to talk when you don't mention any sources to support your statements.
    As mentioned before Miss Balmain is probably created by Harry Cutler (you can see the sources in the comments above).
    Visa seems to be created by both Jean-Charles and Germaine Cellier as found on Robert Piguet website.
    It's still a question if Madame Balmain was a real fragrance created by Cellier or is it a myth created from misunderstandings.

    Although... if I recall a rigorous work of Jean-Charles who was very precise about finding an olfactory balance between notes and Germaine Cellier trends to use overdose of creepy raw materials... I wonder how they could cooperate together...

    Ok AromaX you are right. VISA was a creation of both Jean Charges and Mme Cellier.Sorry.
    I did not know that Madame Balmain was created by Mme Cellier. I know that she creates for Balmain the following perfumes : ELYSEES (1946), VENT VERT ( 1947 ) and JOLIE MADAME ( 1954 ) and MONSIEUR BALMAIN ( 1964 ).
    http://www.perfumeprojects.com/museu..._Balmain.shtml
    Thanks for the information about Harry Cutler
    Have I told you about the scent of jasmine? Have I spoken about the smell of the sea? The earth is scented. And I perfume myself to enhance what I am. That's why I can not wear a perfume that bothers me. Perfuming is an instinctive wisdom. And like all art, it requires some knowledge of yourself..."
    Clarice Lispector ( 1920-1977) - Perfumes da Terra / Earth
    Perfumes

  26. #26

    Default Re: Who created Miss Balmain?

    Quote Originally Posted by AromaX View Post
    For example, it's possible to write to ask the House of Balmain. . . . Another possibility is to contact with four information sources mentioned above and ask them about their sources - where did they take information from? . . . I am not sure if it's worth the efforts. Accepting the fact of non-existence of "Miss Balmain" is much easier in this case. . . . By the way - what is your experience with the Perfume Intelligence website? I mean - why do you call it "awful"?
    Those are all eminently practical suggestions. Unfortunately, the entity operating today as Balmain is not the same entity as the one that existed originally. You may not find anyone who knows anything about the 1940s and 1950s. However, you may find it worthwhile to try. Please keep us up-to-date on what you find out.

    I visited Perfume Intelligence and was not impressed. The layout is terrible, like something from AOL or Geocities circa 1995. More important, the content is minimal. It is just a long list of perfume names with year of introduction and sometimes a comment. There are many fragrance sites that are much more informative.

    The Basenotes Directory is an example of the same effort, only done right. It is visually appealing and easy to navigate. There is much more information about each fragrance, and you can search, sort, and filter to your heart's content. You can read and write reviews of fragrances, and maintain a wardrobe that records what fragrances are in your personal collection. In comparison, Perfume Intelligence's utility is almost nil.

    Basenotes is not the only great place for fragrance information, of course. Michael Edwards' site is wonderful, although it only shows fragrances in current production. Now Smell This' site has a good index, too, although nowhere near exhaustive. Any of these sites would be more useful than Perfume Intelligence.

  27. #27

    Default Re: Who created Miss Balmain?

    Quote Originally Posted by Advocate View Post
    Those are all eminently practical suggestions. Unfortunately, the entity operating today as Balmain is not the same entity as the one that existed originally. You may not find anyone who knows anything about the 1940s and 1950s. However, you may find it worthwhile to try. Please keep us up-to-date on what you find out.

    I visited Perfume Intelligence and was not impressed. The layout is terrible, like something from AOL or Geocities circa 1995. More important, the content is minimal. It is just a long list of perfume names with year of introduction and sometimes a comment. There are many fragrance sites that are much more informative.

    The Basenotes Directory is an example of the same effort, only done right. It is visually appealing and easy to navigate. There is much more information about each fragrance, and you can search, sort, and filter to your heart's content. You can read and write reviews of fragrances, and maintain a wardrobe that records what fragrances are in your personal collection. In comparison, Perfume Intelligence's utility is almost nil.

    Basenotes is not the only great place for fragrance information, of course. Michael Edwards' site is wonderful, although it only shows fragrances in current production. Now Smell This' site has a good index, too, although nowhere near exhaustive. Any of these sites would be more useful than Perfume Intelligence.
    Have you seen my comment #18, Advocate?
    I've asked Robin @ Now Smell This and the team behind the Perfume Intelligence about the sources they used. The answer from Ronin is in that comment. A serious argument, I'd say.

    I guess writing Balmain is aslo an interesting option. I'll think about it and let shall post the comment here.

    Well, I do agree with you about the layout of Perfume Intelligence - it's very simple. But I do appreciate the database itself. And I have an impression that they check the information before publishing. Well, as many other websites I guess. So, it was important for me to know if you referred it as "awful" because of design or the quality of information.
    Anais Nin: "And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom"
    Link to my perfumery blog: http://aromax-on-line.blogspot.com/

  28. #28

    Default Re: Who created Miss Balmain?

    Quote Originally Posted by AromaX View Post
    Have you seen my comment #18, Advocate?
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by AromaX View Post
    So, it was important for me to know if you referred it as "awful" because of design or the quality of information.
    Both.

  29. #29

    Default Re: Who created Miss Balmain?

    Well, I wrote to Balmain, Société française des parfumeurs and to Octavian (for those who doesn't know him - he is a fragrance historian and writer behind the http://1000fragrances.blogspot.com/ blog). So far I've got only an answer from Octavian:

    "I think that Madame Balmain is an error. I have never seen or heard about a real perfume with this name. It is probably a confusion produced by the many Miss and Madame perfumes from that era, from Miss Dior to Madame Rochas. If I'm not wrong, Pierre Balmain was never married and there was never an official Madame Balmain as it was the case with Hélène Rochas (also very beautiful and popular). When designers used to be creators and not brands, the name of a perfume was not so generic and they payed attention to details (that's why there is Chanel pour Monsieur and not Monsieur Chanel, Mademoiselle No1 and never Madame Chanel, but you have Monsieur Balmain as a fragrance). Both Balmain and Dior were gay and a perfume like Madame Dior and Madame Balmain would have been rather funny for both designers (single) in the small fashion circle full of gossips). Jolie Madame was the name of a collection while Miss was used also to name a secondary couture line for a younger clientèle (Miss Dior was also the name of a fashion line sold in London or NY)."

    To me it all makes sense. Of course, a confirmation from Société française des parfumeurs explaining the origin of "Madame Balmain mistake" would be the nice finishing touch here. But may be I am asking too much...

    By the way - answering my own question, I guess it was Pierre Dinand who created the (classic) bottles for Balmain perfumes.
    Last edited by AromaX; 23rd November 2009 at 03:25 PM.
    Anais Nin: "And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom"
    Link to my perfumery blog: http://aromax-on-line.blogspot.com/

  30. #30

    Default Re: Who created Miss Balmain?

    Quote Originally Posted by AromaX View Post
    "I think that Madame Balmain is an error. I have never seen or heard about a real perfume with this name. It is probably a confusion produced by the many Miss and Madame perfumes from that era, from Miss Dior to Madame Rochas. If I'm not wrong, Pierre Balmain was never married and there was never an official Madame Balmain as it was the case with Hélène Rochas (also very beautiful and popular). When designers used to be creators and not brands, the name of a perfume was not so generic and they payed attention to details (that's why there is Chanel pour Monsieur and not Monsieur Chanel, Mademoiselle No1 and never Madame Chanel, but you have Monsieur Balmain as a fragrance). Both Balmain and Dior were gay and a perfume like Madame Dior and Madame Balmain would have been rather funny for both designers (single) in the small fashion circle full of gossips). Jolie Madame was the name of a collection while Miss was used also to name a secondary couture line for a younger clientèle (Miss Dior was also the name of a fashion line sold in London or NY)."
    Fascinating background. Thank you for sharing it with us.

  31. #31

    Default Re: Who created Miss Balmain?

    Madame Balmain was in fact a fragrance, it was a gift scent from the house to loyal customers and was created by Germaine Cellier; along with Vent Vert, Elysees 64-83, Jolie Madame, and Monsieur Balmain (originally called Verveine Citronelle).
    Here is the info;
    "Madame Balmain Parfums Pierre Balmain Created by Germaine Cellier of Roure"

    Germaine Cellier was a very close friend to M. Balmain and actually encouraged him to add fragrance sales to his couture house, Elysees 64-83 was their first collaboration.

    As with Monsieur Balmain, which was released earlier under another name, then re-released during the 60's, it is thought that Miss Balmain was the re-released Madame Balmain during the 60's, also with a younger hipper Miss instead of the staid and stately Madame.

    It is one of those hard to pinpoint facts as to who actually created Miss Balmain. It could just be that the original Madame Balmain was updated by another parfumeur, but was the true creation of Germaine Cellier.
    Last edited by Brielle87; 23rd November 2009 at 09:01 PM.
    Quand on boit l'eau, il faut penser à sa source

  32. #32
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    Default Re: Who created Miss Balmain?

    Wow! Interesting debate. I write the blog "Olfactarama." For many hours I tried to find out something -- anything -- about Harry Cutler. There was nothing; it was as though he had appeared, created Miss Balmain, and disappeared again. It made me wonder if the name was some kind of pseudonym or smokescreen.

    Clearly, "Miss Balmain" was made in an attempt to make the Balmain name a little hipper. The advertising for it was very Sixties, featuring a young girl looking a little like Agent 99 in "Get Smart," with the thick false eyelashes and so on. The scent itself is a flowery leather, also very 60's.

    If this was actually created by Germaine Cellier, what a story that would be!
    Olfacta
    also at http://olfactarama.blogspot.com
    Musings and random thoughts about the genie in the bottle

  33. #33

    Default Re: Who created Miss Balmain?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brielle87 View Post
    Madame Balmain was in fact a fragrance, it was a gift scent from the house to loyal customers and was created by Germaine Cellier; along with Vent Vert, Elysees 64-83, Jolie Madame, and Monsieur Balmain (originally called Verveine Citronelle).
    Here is the info;
    "Madame Balmain Parfums Pierre Balmain Created by Germaine Cellier of Roure"

    Germaine Cellier was a very close friend to M. Balmain and actually encouraged him to add fragrance sales to his couture house, Elysees 64-83 was their first collaboration.

    As with Monsieur Balmain, which was released earlier under another name, then re-released during the 60's, it is thought that Miss Balmain was the re-released Madame Balmain during the 60's, also with a younger hipper Miss instead of the staid and stately Madame.

    It is one of those hard to pinpoint facts as to who actually created Miss Balmain. It could just be that the original Madame Balmain was updated by another parfumeur, but was the true creation of Germaine Cellier.
    Dear Brielle87,

    Can you, please, tell where this information comes from? The fact Pierre Balmain and Germaine Cellier were friends is mentioned in his book "My years and seasons". But the only fragrance mentioned there is Elysee 64-83. The website of http://www.parfumeur-createur.com/ar...?id_article=39 doesn't mention it either. If Madame Balmain indeed existed it would be important to find reliable sources of information where this fragrance is mentioned.
    Anais Nin: "And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom"
    Link to my perfumery blog: http://aromax-on-line.blogspot.com/

  34. #34

    Default Re: Who created Miss Balmain?

    Quote Originally Posted by PB101 View Post
    Wow! Interesting debate. I write the blog "Olfactarama." For many hours I tried to find out something -- anything -- about Harry Cutler. There was nothing; it was as though he had appeared, created Miss Balmain, and disappeared again. It made me wonder if the name was some kind of pseudonym or smokescreen.

    Clearly, "Miss Balmain" was made in an attempt to make the Balmain name a little hipper. The advertising for it was very Sixties, featuring a young girl looking a little like Agent 99 in "Get Smart," with the thick false eyelashes and so on. The scent itself is a flowery leather, also very 60's.

    If this was actually created by Germaine Cellier, what a story that would be!
    It would be a perfect plot... Let's say Germaine Cellier indeed created Madame Balmain and later made Miss Balmain under the pseudonym Harry Cutler (or probably re-build her own fragrance). And it would be also interesting to investigate why Madame Balmain disappeared completely? May be it meant to disappear... someone really needed it to dissapear... I smell conspiracy here. Actually I would really like if the reality looked something like this. But I afraid it was much simpler :-)
    Last edited by AromaX; 23rd November 2009 at 11:06 PM.
    Anais Nin: "And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom"
    Link to my perfumery blog: http://aromax-on-line.blogspot.com/

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