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  1. #1
    bluesoul's Avatar
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    Default Dissolving jojoba oil

    I was under the impression that jojoba oil is alcohol-soluble. I had a bit more in a mixture than I anticipated and it's not dissolving, is there a percentage that it can take before it won't mix or is there something else I need to do?
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  2. #2
    ECaruthers's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dissolving jojoba oil

    I think in general that oils do not disolve in water or alcohol. I doubt you can get more than a couple of percent of jojoba to disperse in alcohol. Perhaps you can decant to separate the phases. I'll be interested to hear whether all the smelly molecules wind up in the alcohol.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Dissolving jojoba oil

    I have never had any luck dissolving jojoba oil in alcohol. I've even tried perfumers alcohol thinking it might have additional ingredients that would break down the oil, but no luck.

    Instead, as has been noted on the board before, I use it as a great skin moisturizer that absorbs quickly.

    Regards,
    Steve

  4. #4

    Default Re: Dissolving jojoba oil

    Jojoba does not dissolve well at all in alcohol (SDA). If you are wishing to use jojoba because you wish a more "luxurious" base ( by that I mean a thicker, more viscous end product, you would probably be well served to substitute DPG ( Dipropylene Glycol) for the jojoba. DPG is also a solvent so you can cut down on some of your alcohol content for those ingredients that are both DPG & alcohol soluable. It is also hygroscopic, so it doesn't "freak out" when you add a bit of distilled water to your juice. Lastly, in that it has a considerably slower rate of evaporation that SDA, it could almost be said to have somewhat of a fixative value ( minor, but there) when compared to SDA. I pretty much abandoned jojoba quite a while ago for several of the above noted reasons, ....however, it seems to be decent moisturizing oil for chapped, Winter hands :-)

  5. #5

    Default Re: Dissolving jojoba oil

    Quote Originally Posted by Ecoture View Post
    Jojoba does not dissolve well at all in alcohol (SDA). If you are wishing to use jojoba because you wish a more "luxurious" base ( by that I mean a thicker, more viscous end product, you would probably be well served to substitute DPG ( Dipropylene Glycol) for the jojoba. DPG is also a solvent so you can cut down on some of your alcohol content for those ingredients that are both DPG & alcohol soluable. It is also hygroscopic, so it doesn't "freak out" when you add a bit of distilled water to your juice. Lastly, in that it has a considerably slower rate of evaporation that SDA, it could almost be said to have somewhat of a fixative value ( minor, but there) when compared to SDA. I pretty much abandoned jojoba quite a while ago for several of the above noted reasons, ....however, it seems to be decent moisturizing oil for chapped, Winter hands :-)
    Excellent info...Thanks!

    Regards,
    Steve

  6. #6
    bluesoul's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dissolving jojoba oil

    Quote Originally Posted by Ecoture View Post
    Jojoba does not dissolve well at all in alcohol (SDA). If you are wishing to use jojoba because you wish a more "luxurious" base ( by that I mean a thicker, more viscous end product, you would probably be well served to substitute DPG ( Dipropylene Glycol) for the jojoba. DPG is also a solvent so you can cut down on some of your alcohol content for those ingredients that are both DPG & alcohol soluable. It is also hygroscopic, so it doesn't "freak out" when you add a bit of distilled water to your juice. Lastly, in that it has a considerably slower rate of evaporation that SDA, it could almost be said to have somewhat of a fixative value ( minor, but there) when compared to SDA. I pretty much abandoned jojoba quite a while ago for several of the above noted reasons, ....however, it seems to be decent moisturizing oil for chapped, Winter hands :-)
    Good info here, and good to know that I was on the right track with moving to DPG. Thanks!
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  7. #7

    Default Re: Dissolving jojoba oil

    My oil perfumes are pretty thick! I am using Jojoba but I don't like how thick it becomes...
    Is there anything that I can do to make my perfume less thicker?

  8. #8
    ECaruthers's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dissolving jojoba oil

    As an oil base for perfumes, jojoba is kind of expensive. Neutragena makes a Fragrance Free Body Oil that's avaiable at Ulta Beauty (at least where I live). Rite Aid also has an unscented house brand body oil that's pretty reasonable. Try the oil fist to see if you like the feel.

    There are lighter oils, e.g., kerosene. But I don't know where to buy a fragrance free kerosene. Maybe for home lamps? Does anyone know? Has anyone tried mixing oils of different molecular weights? I think it should work.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Dissolving jojoba oil

    I don't want (at least not yet) to change my carrier oil. I just want to know if it is possible to make it thiner... and maybe this other oil perfumes that I've tried they used something else... maybe less expensive or less quality...

  10. #10

    Default Re: Dissolving jojoba oil

    It's my understanding that jojoba is technically a wax, not an oil, and that the advantage of using it is that it is fairly odorless and doesn't go rancid like some other oils do. Here's what I've found from my (admittedly limited) experimentation: If you're just using jojoba to make perfume oils, essential oils and/or any synthetics that are dissolved in DPG can be added directly to the jojoba. I would think that any thin oil would mix OK with jojoba or DPG, but haven't tried. Jojoba would get expensive if you were using large quantities for something like massage oils, but there are all kinds of other vegetable oils out there, many of which are cheaper than jojoba. You just have to be careful about the odor of the oil itself. Things like olive oil have a pretty strong odor.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Dissolving jojoba oil

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Elly View Post
    I If you're just using jojoba to make perfume oils, essential oils and/or any synthetics that are dissolved in DPG can be added directly to the jojoba. I would think that any thin oil would mix OK with jojoba or DPG, but haven't tried..
    what is DPG?
    I don't want to take any other carrier oil beside jojoba because it is very stable.
    But in the same time, I don't know how can my perfume (where concentration of perfume goes till 40%) smells like body oil... Like there is 5% od fragrance oil inside.
    Everything has beauty, but not everyone sees it. ~Confucius

  12. #12

    Default Re: Dissolving jojoba oil

    DPG is dipropylene glycol. It mixes with either oil or water. If the ingredients that you're using are diluted, it may be that the 40% of perfume that you add to the carrier oil contains only 5 or 10% of actual fragrance components.

    Just for curiosity I checked out the SOS site. They don't say what the concentration of their fragrance oils is, just that the "Ultra" concentration is 50% more than the "SOS" concentration, and the "XC Extreme" concentration is 125-250% more. Not very informative, but suggests that the "SOS" concentration is mostly carrier. You might want to e-mail them and find out what the actual concentration is.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Dissolving jojoba oil

    thank you very much, but i need more info: what is SOS?
    Everything has beauty, but not everyone sees it. ~Confucius

  14. #14

    Default Re: Dissolving jojoba oil

    My apologies. I thought you were getting your materials from a place called Saveonscents (SOS). That must have been someone in a different thread. I guess I should read backwards before replying. Anyway, the principle is still the same - are your materials pure essential oils or fragrance compounds, or are they already diluted when you get them?

  15. #15

    Default Re: Dissolving jojoba oil

    I bought them in one Croatian store. I don't have any info if there were diluted or not. Do you know how could I check that?
    Regarding Jojoba, I heard it is oil but it is also called wax.

    My materials are fragrance oils and and as I said, not sure if there are diluted.
    So, fragrance oils and jojoba.
    Nothing else.
    Everything has beauty, but not everyone sees it. ~Confucius

  16. #16
    ECaruthers's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dissolving jojoba oil

    Quote Originally Posted by Ankica View Post
    I bought them in one Croatian store. I don't have any info if there were diluted or not. Do you know how could I check that?
    Regarding Jojoba, I heard it is oil but it is also called wax.

    My materials are fragrance oils and and as I said, not sure if there are diluted.
    So, fragrance oils and jojoba.
    Nothing else.
    Ankica,

    I suggest doing a small test with each component that you might like to use. Mix 5 ml of the component (e.g., EO) with 10 ml of the Jojoba. Shake a little and then watch. If it stays cloudy or separates into a couple of layers, then the materials are not compatible. E.g., some components from some sources are diluted in alcohol. A couple of components I've tried (e.g., benzoin) would not disperse in oil. But a fragrance oil probably will.

    The 15 ml mixture is 33% of your component and 67% Jojoba. If the 'concentrate' has been diluted then the mixture is less than 33% of the aroma chemical you care about. The big thing is to smell it after about a week and decide how you'd want to combine it with other similarly diluted components to make your final juice.

    Don't forget to have fun.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Dissolving jojoba oil

    I definitely forget to have fun

    There is a lot of things ahead of me!
    Uh.

    I will try to find some other carrier oil as well... just to check.
    Which one can compare with jojoba regarding stability)
    Everything has beauty, but not everyone sees it. ~Confucius

  18. #18

    Default Re: Dissolving jojoba oil

    Nope, that won't do. Fatty oils won't mix with water or alcohol for that matter.
    The exception is Turkey Red Oil (sulfonated castor oil) which disperses in water and is used in most of the alcohol-free children and/or summer edition scents (i.e.: Petit Guerlain). These usually have a slightly milky appearance and therefore are usually packaged in frosted bottles.
    But generally speaking, with fatty oils - there will always remain droplets of oil unless you use some kind of an emulsifier, in which case the result will look milky/cloudy.
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  19. #19

    Default Re: Dissolving jojoba oil

    If you want an oil to be soluble in water/alcohol you'll need to locate one that has been ethoxylated. Ethoxylated Jojoba/castor/shea butter oils and many more are available on the market that should help in your formulations. The only downfall to using an ethoxylated material is that during the reaction process of the oil and ethylene oxide, a compound called 1,4 dioxane is formed which is a known carcinogen and is regulated by California's prop 65. As such, manufacturers of the raw material will list this compound in parts per million (PPM) on the MSDS of the material that you are formulating (found in section 15 of said form). However, if it's not on the MSDS you'll need to request a residual solvent statement from your vendor to determine how many PPM of 1,4 is in your material; granted that you are concerned levels of 1,4.

  20. #20
    ECaruthers's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dissolving jojoba oil

    Kefka,

    Thanks for the information. Ethyoxylation is a trick I haven't heard of before. I know surfactants can be added to help water and oil mix, but my reading suggests that success requires using exactly the right ammount of surfactant. And I haven't been able to find any formulas for determining that ammount. Do you know of any practical references?

  21. #21

    Default Re: Dissolving jojoba oil

    Using a surfactant is not the same as using an ethoxylated oil, though a lot of ethoxylated oils work as an surfactant.

    Depending on the surfactant you use for solubilising and the aroma compound you need about 4-6 times the amount of the aroma compound, so, for instance:
    4 gram aroma compound
    20 gram Tween 20 (a common surfactant used for solublising)
    up to 100 ml water.

    You can use more solubliser than needed, generaly not a problem, as long as the solubliser mixes with the water.

  22. #22
    ECaruthers's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dissolving jojoba oil

    Thanks, janmeut, that's good information to have. Does the same 4X rule work if I want to disolve an alcohol based accord in an oil?

  23. #23

    Default Re: Dissolving jojoba oil

    I think an alcohol based accord is hard to mix with oil. More important: it is the oposite of solving oil in water, so the surfactants mentioned might not work, you probably need a mainly lipophile emulsifier. I am afraid I cannot help you here.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Dissolving jojoba oil

    This works for me with a mixture of IPM (isopropyl myristate) + DPG + cyclomethicone.

  25. #25
    DON'T DRINK AND DRESS

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    Default Re: Dissolving jojoba oil

    I wonder if adding some emulsifyer such as Polysorbate 20 would do the trick?

    edit: I see janmeut has already mentioned using Polysorbate 20 as 'Tween 20' brand.
    Last edited by kbe; 22nd January 2010 at 07:50 PM.
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  26. #26

    Default Re: Dissolving jojoba oil

    Quote Originally Posted by Ankica View Post
    I don't want (at least not yet) to change my carrier oil. I just want to know if it is possible to make it thiner... and maybe this other oil perfumes that I've tried they used something else... maybe less expensive or less quality...
    If you're just using it to thin your jojoba, you could add any of these: hazelnut, macadamia, sunflower seed or even unscented mineral oil. All of these are perfectly acceptable as carriers on their own, except for the mineral oil. Mineral oil is only good as a carrier by itself when used as a moisturizer base or massage oil base, as it won't absorb well into the skin and will keep your perfume formulas from going through the proper chemistry changes it should on skin. Sunflower is your best bet for comparable to jojoba, but cheaper and thinner, since it is virtually scentless. The other two, macadamia and hazelnut, are fine on their own, but will add a slightly sweet & nutty aspect... however, it shouldn't affect your perfume much if you're only using a small amount to thin the jojoba. There is also an jojoba lite available, which is what I use for my oil based scents that I don't want any other characteristics added to. The nuttier oils are wonderful bases alone, though... especially when you're looking for something intangible to round out a harsh edge or just to add a nutty aspect. There are others that you could add to thin, as well, but their shelflives are much shorter.

  27. #27

    Default Re: Dissolving jojoba oil

    I second jojoba lite, that's mostly sold as refined jojoba (not golden). How about FCO = fractionated coconut oil? That's a very light oil and often used by 'homebased' perfume makers (like on Etsy).
    I personally wouldn't recommend using sunflower or nut oils as perfume carriers as they can quickly turn rancid. Adding some Vit E can extend their shelf lives but still they tend to go off a lot quicker than jojoba and/or FCO.

    Quote Originally Posted by lilmissknowitall View Post
    If you're just using it to thin your jojoba, you could add any of these: hazelnut, macadamia, sunflower seed or even unscented mineral oil. All of these are perfectly acceptable as carriers on their own, except for the mineral oil. Mineral oil is only good as a carrier by itself when used as a moisturizer base or massage oil base, as it won't absorb well into the skin and will keep your perfume formulas from going through the proper chemistry changes it should on skin. Sunflower is your best bet for comparable to jojoba, but cheaper and thinner, since it is virtually scentless. The other two, macadamia and hazelnut, are fine on their own, but will add a slightly sweet & nutty aspect... however, it shouldn't affect your perfume much if you're only using a small amount to thin the jojoba. There is also an jojoba lite available, which is what I use for my oil based scents that I don't want any other characteristics added to. The nuttier oils are wonderful bases alone, though... especially when you're looking for something intangible to round out a harsh edge or just to add a nutty aspect. There are others that you could add to thin, as well, but their shelflives are much shorter.

  28. #28

    Default Re: Dissolving jojoba oil

    Quote Originally Posted by Irina View Post
    I second jojoba lite, that's mostly sold as refined jojoba (not golden). How about FCO = fractionated coconut oil? That's a very light oil and often used by 'homebased' perfume makers (like on Etsy).
    I personally wouldn't recommend using sunflower or nut oils as perfume carriers as they can quickly turn rancid. Adding some Vit E can extend their shelf lives but still they tend to go off a lot quicker than jojoba and/or FCO.
    This is true when these oils are used alone, so you should always check for "best if used by" stamp or be sure to ask your supplier for this info on any ingredients that don't have indefinite shelf lives. For reference, the approximate shelf life for macadamia oil is up to 2 yrs, for sunflower (high-oleic type) is one-two years, and hazelnut up to a year at room temp... which is longer than most fixed oils that don't have indefinite shelf lives. I personally have, for my own use only, extended them up to 5-6 years when refrigerated. Though, if you're using only a small amount to thin out your jojoba, it shouldn't be an issue, as the jojoba will act as a preservative to those added. I'm not a personal fan of coconut oil, mainly because of how easily it solidifies, but many are and if you live in a warm climate or don't mind that particular characteristic, it's a non-issue. It is always best to experiment with what's available (in small batches, of course) to see what suits you best. Also worth mentioning: always do your research when using any unrefined oils, as they can contain unwanted bacterias and/or fungis... know your supplier.

    Be sure to make it known to potential customers/users that you've used a nut based oil , and not to cross contaminate utensils you might have used when mixing with them. Those with nut allergies will thank you

  29. #29

    Default Re: Dissolving jojoba oil

    Even unrefined will rarely contain bacteria or fungi, because they contain none or only very little water. The problem with most oils is that they can develop rancidity bij oxidation. You can add an antioxidant like vitamin E (tocopherol), BHT or alike.

  30. #30

    Default Re: Dissolving jojoba oil

    Oh perfumery and making your own ... I'm glad I finally came out of lurkdom. And so I will jump right in ...

    I second Irina in using fractionated coconut oil. It's way cheaper than jojoba, it's a lot thinner, it has zero smell, and it has an extreeeeeeeeeeeemely long shelf life. (Oh and it doesn't solidify, not like regular coconut oil.) FCO is widely used in cosmetics. If you've ever seen caprylic/capric oil on an ingredient list, that's FCO. It gives products a nice slip. Applied neat to the skin, it absorbs well.

    I use it for oil-based perfumes and it's wonderful. I love jojoba as a moisturizer, but I use FCO for perfumery. Well, actually, I use it for a lot of things.

  31. #31
    oliverandco
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    Default Re: Dissolving jojoba oil

    Hi,
    i found in many parfums that contains Hydrogenated Castor Oil, i guess as a fixative. Is an alcohol and water soluble this oil?

  32. #32
    oliverandco
    Guest

    Default Re: Dissolving jojoba oil

    FCO is alcohol and water soluble?


    Quote Originally Posted by zoomia View Post
    Oh perfumery and making your own ... I'm glad I finally came out of lurkdom. And so I will jump right in ...

    I second Irina in using fractionated coconut oil. It's way cheaper than jojoba, it's a lot thinner, it has zero smell, and it has an extreeeeeeeeeeeemely long shelf life. (Oh and it doesn't solidify, not like regular coconut oil.) FCO is widely used in cosmetics. If you've ever seen caprylic/capric oil on an ingredient list, that's FCO. It gives products a nice slip. Applied neat to the skin, it absorbs well.

    I use it for oil-based perfumes and it's wonderful. I love jojoba as a moisturizer, but I use FCO for perfumery. Well, actually, I use it for a lot of things.

  33. #33

    Default Re: Dissolving jojoba oil

    Quote Originally Posted by Kefka View Post
    If you want an oil to be soluble in water/alcohol you'll need to locate one that has been ethoxylated. Ethoxylated Jojoba/castor/shea butter oils and many more are available on the market that should help in your formulations. The only downfall to using an ethoxylated material is that during the reaction process of the oil and ethylene oxide, a compound called 1,4 dioxane is formed which is a known carcinogen and is regulated by California's prop 65. As such, manufacturers of the raw material will list this compound in parts per million (PPM) on the MSDS of the material that you are formulating (found in section 15 of said form). However, if it's not on the MSDS you'll need to request a residual solvent statement from your vendor to determine how many PPM of 1,4 is in your material; granted that you are concerned levels of 1,4.
    Another alternative is using a surfactant, specifically, Polysorbate 80. Its colorless, odorless, and is non-toxic. A few drops will allow you to make oil/water blends without difficulty, which is the solution to thinning a carrier like jojoba. If you are careful of the ratios, it is completely possible to mix a fatty oil with alcohol. The reason alcohol is such a good solvent is because it has both polar, and non-polar aspects. Oil has only non-polar, and water only polar. In proper ratios the non-polar oil is attracted to the non -polar aspect of alcohol (+ to +), and this allows them to dissolve. In the event that there is a greater ammount of oil than alcohol you end up with some oil molecules that don't get a dance partner, they remain unbonded (sad, right?) and hang out as globules in your juice. Also, if your aren't using an alcohol that is very close to pure (SDA40b), and instead are using vodka, or some other alcohol that contains a small ammount of water, then you won't get the oil to dissolve, since the water has an opposing charge to the oil (its oleophobic, and oil is hydrophobic). As I said earlier, the solution to these misunderstandings between our carriers is to use a handy chemical called a surfactant (surface-acting-agent) which alter the surface tension of a liquid, changing its solubility. (How they do this is a detailed discussion that is not especially relevant to the topic). In my experience, Polysorbate 80 (NOT 60, 40, or 20) is the best for perfume, because 1. It works, 2. Its safe enough to eat, and 3. Unlike its lower numbered siblings, it will not thicken your juice, or make it foamy, like other less appropriate surfactants would. Hope this helps. Oh, and you can get Polysorbate 80 for a very low price on Amazon...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Isopropyl myristate (a fatty alcohol) is a good solvent that is miscible with water and oil. The dry down is loooong, but never feels oily to me....

  34. #34

    Default Re: Dissolving jojoba oil

    Sorry to be picky but Isopropyl Myristate is an ester which is insoluble in cold water. Widely used in cosmetics, it acts as a moisturiser although it is thought that it can cause an increase in blackheads. Also used to get rid of lice.

  35. #35

    Default Re: Dissolving jojoba oil

    Quote Originally Posted by mandaryn View Post

    Isopropyl myristate (a fatty alcohol) is a good solvent that is miscible with water and oil. The dry down is loooong, but never feels oily to me....
    I think perhaps youíre confusing isopropyl alcohol (aka Isopropanol) which is miscible with water, ethanol and most volatile oils but not fixed oils; with isopropyl myristate, which is absolutely not miscible with water but will mix successfully with most fixed oils and many (but not all) volatile ones. Both are very useful solvents but isopropanol is not much used in perfumery because it has a strong, if fleeting, scent.

    Also note that using a surfactant does not make broadly equal amounts of oil and water miscible as such, it causes micelles to form, which can be so tiny that the visual effect is the same, or they can be large enough to form an emulsion that is opaque or slightly cloudy: there are a lot of factors involved in determining exactly what happens. This can be important because emulsions can encourage bacterial growth (though not usually where a substantial amount of ethanol is involved). A further issue is that surfactants can, by their nature, disrupt the water-oil barrier in the skin, encouraging drying or even de-fatting. None of these problems mean that Polysorbate 80 cannot be used to help with solubility of a perfume, but it may well be necessary to add preservatives, such as a wide-spectrum anti-bacterial agent, for example.

    It is also worth noting that it does not follow that because something is safe to eat it is safe to put on your skin (or that because something is safe to put on your skin it is safe to eat): many materials that are permitted in foods are restricted or prohibited in cosmetics and vice-versa. Polysorbate 80 is, I believe, permitted in both in most administrations.

    This whole area is quite complex: it is in my view a great deal simpler to choose to make your perfume either in an oil base or an ethanol base and not attempt to mix the two.
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