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  1. #1

    Default Is there any way to STRENGTHEN the concentration of a frag?

    Forgive me if this sounds crazy... But if I understand the basic science here, for the most part the EdC vs EdT vs Edp, etc are just different concentrations... so is there any way of actually "removing" alcohol content (or whatever the carrier is) without the essential oils (or whatever the "smell" molecules are), thereby "concentrating" the fragrance?
    I just get frustrated with all these EdC's and EdT's and would prefer stronger...

    Also, I've read that the concentration affects the notes, even with the same essential oils, is that why some come as EdT's and not EdP's? Would "concentrating" a frag (if possible) completely change the smell?

    Thanks!
    Last edited by Master-Classter; 15th January 2010 at 03:44 AM.
    NEW SPLIT - Tom Ford Lavender Palm 50ml in Atomizer - DISCONTINUED!. .

    Most of the time I am very proud of the Basenotes community. Time after time I have witnessed the thoughtfulness, empathy & genuine friendship that members of this community extend to others - oldtimers & newcomers alike. There are other times, however, when egos get the upper hand and civility goes out the window. My philosophy is that I won't say anything here that I would not say if you were standing in front of me. Welcome to Basenotes, each and every one of us. ~ TwoRoads

  2. #2

    Default Re: Is there any way to CHANGE the concentration of a frag?

    I'm just a total fragrance newbie so I don't exactly know how does the content of a fragrance work
    but given it is a mixture of essential oils and some solvent (alcohol?!)
    I guess maybe it's possible to heat it with a precise temperature (aka the boiling point of alcohol) to increase the concentration without removing any essential oil
    That's just my thought in a chemistry stand point :P but I doubt things will work that easily and I'm a total newbie so I don't know lol

  3. #3

    Default Re: Is there any way to CHANGE the concentration of a frag?

    I'm just a total fragrance newbie so I don't exactly know how does the content of a fragrance work
    but given it is a mixture of essential oils and some solvent (alcohol?!)
    I guess maybe it's possible to heat it with a precise temperature (aka the boiling point of alcohol) to increase the concentration without removing any essential oil
    That's just my thought in a chemistry stand point :P but I doubt things will work that easily and I'm a total newbie so I don't know lol

  4. #4

    Default Re: Is there any way to CHANGE the concentration of a frag?

    I dilute strong frags with vodka. I've also added vanilla extract (alcohol based) to some of them if I think that will help make it more wearable.
    Last edited by Bigsly; 14th January 2010 at 03:10 AM.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Is there any way to CHANGE the concentration of a frag?

    Wouldnt a spray-type decant cause evaporation of some of the alcohol, theoretically making it slightly stronger? *sigh* I have no idea, just a thought based on some short reading I've done. When applying a frag, it seems that holding it too far will cause most of the alcohol to evaporate and lose the frag, so wouldnt it make sense that a decant would cost you at least SOME of the alcohol suspension?

  6. #6

    Default Re: Is there any way to CHANGE the concentration of a frag?

    Bigsley, I'm trying to make them STRONGER...
    Last edited by Master-Classter; 14th January 2010 at 05:45 AM.
    NEW SPLIT - Tom Ford Lavender Palm 50ml in Atomizer - DISCONTINUED!. .

    Most of the time I am very proud of the Basenotes community. Time after time I have witnessed the thoughtfulness, empathy & genuine friendship that members of this community extend to others - oldtimers & newcomers alike. There are other times, however, when egos get the upper hand and civility goes out the window. My philosophy is that I won't say anything here that I would not say if you were standing in front of me. Welcome to Basenotes, each and every one of us. ~ TwoRoads

  7. #7

    Default Re: Is there any way to CHANGE the concentration of a frag?

    Also, doesnt the alcohol begin to evaporate on contact with air, while the oils remain? Could you let it 'air out' in a smaller decant, perhaps with a wider base? or am I off my rocker here...

  8. #8

    Default Re: Is there any way to CHANGE the concentration of a frag?

    ^^^, I understand exactly what you mean and was thinking the same thing. I'm just not quite clear with that method on the chemistry/science side of things that might explain if the "smelly" molecules evaporate with the alcohol?

    Alternatively, I was thinking something like warming the liquid up
    or some sort of substance that absorbs the alcohol only
    NEW SPLIT - Tom Ford Lavender Palm 50ml in Atomizer - DISCONTINUED!. .

    Most of the time I am very proud of the Basenotes community. Time after time I have witnessed the thoughtfulness, empathy & genuine friendship that members of this community extend to others - oldtimers & newcomers alike. There are other times, however, when egos get the upper hand and civility goes out the window. My philosophy is that I won't say anything here that I would not say if you were standing in front of me. Welcome to Basenotes, each and every one of us. ~ TwoRoads

  9. #9

    Default Re: Is there any way to CHANGE the concentration of a frag?

    My knowledge of suspension in alcohol has nothing to do with fragrances, but the one field I am very well versed in recommends freezing to break the suspension. However, fragrances are not quite the same I imagine, as the oil will likely also not freeze. Perhaps the change in temperature will increase the density of the oil and cause a separation, allowing a withdrawal of some alcohol. Do you have a lesser bottle that you dont like/cannot trade on which to test this theory?

  10. #10

    Default Re: Is there any way to CHANGE the concentration of a frag?

    If you are smelling something, you are by definition sensing molecules that have evaporated into gaseous form and migrated into your nose. (Think about that the next time you get a good whiff of dog squeeze -- those molecules went right from the dog's butt into your nose! Your nose and lungs are literally filling up with dog poop!! )

    Evaporation rates are related to molecular weight. Ethanol is a small molecule, so it's one of the most volatile in a fragrance. But the other top notes aren't far behind. You'd most likely need some sophisticated technology to get the alcohol to evaporate while the rest stays.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Is there any way to CHANGE the concentration of a frag?

    Hmmm..methylated spirits...AKA Pure vodka :P try vodka extract....Though please do only try the Vodka on a separate vial from your original Decant. Seperate some liquid into an applicable storage container.

    Cheers and good luck! let us know the result!

    - Balava
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    - Anonymous

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  12. #12

    Default Re: Is there any way to CHANGE the concentration of a frag?

    He is trying to remove alcohol to strengthen, not add to weaken.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Is there any way to STRENGTHEN the concentration of a frag?

    I'm still curious about this question. Is there any way of strengthening the smell of a fragrance? Just spraying more of it on doesn't change the evaporation time, just maybe the sillage a bit. Can I somehow pull alcohol out? or add something (eg IsoE) to make it stronger?
    NEW SPLIT - Tom Ford Lavender Palm 50ml in Atomizer - DISCONTINUED!. .

    Most of the time I am very proud of the Basenotes community. Time after time I have witnessed the thoughtfulness, empathy & genuine friendship that members of this community extend to others - oldtimers & newcomers alike. There are other times, however, when egos get the upper hand and civility goes out the window. My philosophy is that I won't say anything here that I would not say if you were standing in front of me. Welcome to Basenotes, each and every one of us. ~ TwoRoads

  14. #14

    Default Re: Is there any way to STRENGTHEN the concentration of a frag?

    Perhaps you could layer with another fragrance and that way make some of the notes smell stronger.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Is there any way to STRENGTHEN the concentration of a frag?

    There are quite a few ways to strengthen the fragrance, and I'm sure you know about them or can find about them easily on these boards. First time I read about someone wanting to increase the concentration of a fragrance on these boards, and while it sounds quite logical, I highly doubt you can do it effectively outside of a lab and with knowledge of how to separate the molecules. People have already suggested that you move them to a decant and expose the juice to air for a reasonable amount of time to let more of the alcohol evaporate. That would work in theory to increase the concentration, however keep in mind that a portal of the essential oils will evaporate as well, maybe not at the same rate, but they will. Actually the light top notes will just evaporate as quick. From my own splash decants vs spray bottles, I have noticed that. Due to increased exposure to air the fragrance loses some top notes but also some of the strong alcohol opening. The only advantage of that is you can use more juice without having to worry about it smelling too sharp and headache-y if you overplay; the advantage is it allows for more over-applying.

    As for concentration in EdC/EdT/EdP etc, many times the EdP (for example) is a different animal than the EdT, straight up. Narciso Rodriguez for Her EdP was my worst blind buy due to that reason, it even smells weaker than the EdT. But as for the ones that are actually truly and EdT/EdP of the same fragrance, it still hard to maintain the same scent while increasing the concentration. If you keep the same proportions of the essential oils while just increasing the ratio of oil:alcohol, it will still smell different. So yeah, making an EdP of an already existing EdT requires tweaking the proportions, if not adding/subtracting some supporting notes in most cases, but not all. Which also means what you're trying to do is not going to work in theory; even if you manage to reduce the alcohol concentration, you will end up taking something out of the fragrance, or making something not noticed before more prominent.

    Your safest bet is to apply more, or go for one of the more conventional means of increasing projection/longevity; Using a moisturizer, powdery, applying on clothes, applying after shaving, apply on hair (hair lines at neck, hair on arms, or slipping fingers through the hair on the top of your head, don't apply directly), layering -with the right fragrance- and so on...

  16. #16

    Default Re: Is there any way to STRENGTHEN the concentration of a frag?

    A fragrance may not last due to the essential oils used. A volatile citrus can not last unless it's synthetic. Sometimes it's where you place the scent. Oilier skin areas last longer. That's why women are known to layer with a lotion. You might try placing a bit of jojoba oil first. Sometimes it's just chemistry. My skin destroys most pure florals, so I won't buy unless a citrus and a wood are present. Middle Eastern scents are stronger due to the dry, sandy air. There's more to compete with the scent. These also work with my chemistry. They're using more of the essential oil and often middle and basenotes only. Skin care products can also conflict with a fragrance on the skin, such as scented deodorants.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Is there any way to STRENGTHEN the concentration of a frag?

    Regarding alcohol, it helps the essential oils last longer to a certain extent. Edp, still needs alcohol or something to make it last, unless it was a fragrance that featured naturally heavy, oily scents. That's why most western perfumes use synthetics for some notes. Even high end or niche may use synthetics.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Is there any way to CHANGE the concentration of a frag?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigsly View Post
    I dilute strong frags with vodka. I've also added vanilla extract (alcohol based) to some of them if I think that will help make it more wearable.
    I use this technique for my Lapidus pour homme. It became much "acceptable"!

  19. #19

    Default Re: Is there any way to STRENGTHEN the concentration of a frag?

    Quote Originally Posted by Master-Classter View Post
    Forgive me if this sounds crazy... But if I understand the basic science here, for the most part the EdC vs EdT vs Edp, etc are just different concentrations... so is there any way of actually "removing" alcohol content (or whatever the carrier is) without the essential oils (or whatever the "smell" molecules are), thereby "concentrating" the fragrance?
    I just get frustrated with all these EdC's and EdT's and would prefer stronger...

    Also, I've read that the concentration affects the notes, even with the same essential oils, is that why some come as EdT's and not EdP's? Would "concentrating" a frag (if possible) completely change the smell?

    Thanks!
    I think your question should be: how do I figure out a way for my skin to hold the fragrance for longer time?
    That question has definite and scientific answers.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Is there any way to STRENGTHEN the concentration of a frag?

    Taking a hot shower and using the perfume afterwards, this is how I do it and the smell is always strong and beautiful in contrast of using the perfume without a shower. Some perfumes are just weak in nature and some skin types just don't provide an adequate environment for the perfume to flourish. I think buying a powerhouse perfume like Aoud Lime is not a bad idea.

    Amplifying the scent for a weak nose or a bad skin would be amazing, I just wish there is an easy way to do it.
    Currently listening to: Counting Crows - Mr. Jones, The Last Waltz - Old Boy, The Prodigy - Firestarter, Gorillaz - Clint Eastwood, R.E.M - Losing My Religion, "He's On the Beach" - Kirsty MacColl, In-Grid - Tu Es Foutu

  21. #21

    Default Re: Is there any way to STRENGTHEN the concentration of a frag?

    Quote Originally Posted by santino View Post
    I think your question should be: how do I figure out a way for my skin to hold the fragrance for longer time?
    That question has definite and scientific answers.
    that's a good point. I'm open to suggestions! (besides just 'moisturize')
    NEW SPLIT - Tom Ford Lavender Palm 50ml in Atomizer - DISCONTINUED!. .

    Most of the time I am very proud of the Basenotes community. Time after time I have witnessed the thoughtfulness, empathy & genuine friendship that members of this community extend to others - oldtimers & newcomers alike. There are other times, however, when egos get the upper hand and civility goes out the window. My philosophy is that I won't say anything here that I would not say if you were standing in front of me. Welcome to Basenotes, each and every one of us. ~ TwoRoads

  22. #22

    Default Re: Is there any way to STRENGTHEN the concentration of a frag?

    First of all, I would never recommend heating a fragrance in an attempt to boil off the alcohol. There are several reasons this is a bad idea. First, heating the alcohol in air will increase the rate at which it oxidises. Second, the volatile top notes will be preferentially lost during this process and the resulting mixture will be thrown out of balance and be base note-heavy. Thirdly, you don't know the composition of the oil and the thermal stability of these molecules in combination with each other. While my organic chemistry isn't quite at the point where I could tell you if reactions are at all possible between, say, citral and vetiveryl acetate, it's probably not worth taking the risk if you don't have to.

    Equally, I would never advocate the intentional exposure of fragrance to air. These days, companies load up their solutions with antioxidants, but an antioxidant is essentially a one-time solution (like a buffer, not a catalyst, for anyone interested), so the more airtime your fragrance gets, the less time you have before your sprays start to smell oxidised.

    The easiest solution is simply to spray more in the same place. Spraying 5 different points in your body once each time will give you enormous sillage but poor longevity. Spraying one point on your body 5 times will give you lower sillage and increased longevity, because the layer of fragrance oil on your skin will be thicker, with the exterior molecules inhibiting the evaporation of underlying ones. As for exactly how much of the top notes the evaporating alcohol takes away with it, that's something I believe we're still not really clued up on. If we were, it would tell us whether spraying once, waiting to dry and spraying again would be better than spraying twice and waiting to dry (this is an experiment someone needs to do, and would be very straightforward using simple headspace and a GC/MS).

    Spraying more EdT of a perfume won't necessarily make it smell like the EdP of the same perfume, because many producers use different formulae for their EdT and EdP, but it will smell like a stronger EdT and last longer.

    As for adding things to bulk up your perfume, by all means try, and I would strongly encourage layering, but there's no quick-fix concentration giver.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Is there any way to STRENGTHEN the concentration of a frag?

    One more thing - you could also try using DPG/sweet almond oil/coconut oil or some other carrier oil. Drop a tiny quantity onto your wrist (if that's where you apply) once the perfume has dried and press your wrists together to distribute the oil. This should slow down the release of the aromatic molecules from your skin.

  24. #24
    Robin-in-FL's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is there any way to STRENGTHEN the concentration of a frag?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benj View Post
    ..........The easiest solution is simply to spray more in the same place. Spraying 5 different points in your body once each time will give you enormous sillage but poor longevity. Spraying one point on your body 5 times will give you lower sillage and increased longevity, because the layer of fragrance oil on your skin will be thicker, with the exterior molecules inhibiting the evaporation of underlying ones. As for exactly how much of the top notes the evaporating alcohol takes away with it, that's something I believe we're still not really clued up on. If we were, it would tell us whether spraying once, waiting to dry and spraying again would be better than spraying twice and waiting to dry (this is an experiment someone needs to do, and would be very straightforward using simple headspace and a GC/MS)......
    This is what I do, apply twice to the same places, as I have fragrance-eating skin. Twice meaning apply as much as smells perfect, then go back over those same places one more time (generally only wrists and back of neck). It works well for me. Wait for the spray to dry in between, not out of any experimental urge but because too much and it gets wet/drippy, it's not practical to overapply all at once in one place.

    It is a little "loud" to begin with. But it calms quickly and is generally exactly right by the time work begins, and for the rest of the day, wearing much more slowly than if I applied the amount that smelled right at the beginning and then stopped. Extra longevity, not extra drift, just like Benj says.

    Low-tech and effective.

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Is there any way to STRENGTHEN the concentration of a frag?

    Perhaps a reduced pressure, short path distillation technique would work. It most likely would take multiple distillation passes as few mixtures distill cleanly with a single pass. But, without access to an equiped lab, who has such equipment at home for the attempt?
    'Those who grow too big for their pants will be exposed in the end'--anon

  26. #26

    Default Re: Is there any way to STRENGTHEN the concentration of a frag?

    You can get a strong amber frag with a high percentage of naturals, and add a little to the frag in question. The problem is that it will likely dry down to the amber frag's base, so it doesn't really do much, in my experience. I think the best idea is to spray on a spot, wait until in dries, spray again. Repeat until you get the desired result. I have some aftershaves that are a bit weak, so I spray so that some gets on my shirt, which makes it last longer and it seems a bit stronger too.

  27. #27

    Default Re: Is there any way to STRENGTHEN the concentration of a frag?

    Quote Originally Posted by Robin-in-FL View Post
    This is what I do, apply twice to the same places... ...wait for the spray to dry in between, not out of any experimental urge but because too much and it gets wet/drippy, it's not practical to overapply all at once in one place.
    This is a good point that I hadn't thought about. Two sprays at once will cause the fragrance to spread out over your skin more, but what you're really looking for to optimise longevity is getting the same amount of fragrance on a smaller amount of skin. Waiting to dry and then spraying on in the exact same place is better than spraying twice at once.

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