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  1. #1

    Default Diluting vanilla absolute

    Ok so this stuff is seriously viscous. I warmed it up and the alcohol I was diluting into as well but it still comes over very "bitty", doesn't disolve properly and there are pats of absolute on the side of the bottle not diluted in the alcohol. There must be some trick to doing this well (or at least better than I did). Anyone have any tips? Do I need to make it warmer? It doesn't seem to get any more mobile after a ceratin temperature...

    thanks
    "Don’t try to be original. Be simple. Be good technically, and if there is something in you, it will come out. ” - Henri Matisse.

    "Wear R de Capucci" - Hirch Duckfinder

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  2. #2

    Default Re: Diluting vanilla absolute

    The answer is probably: use more alcohol. Absolutes are soluble in alcohol, but not in any rate. What percentage did you want to make? Generally is 10% the upper limit, but a maximum of 4-5% is not an exception.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Diluting vanilla absolute

    I love to use IPM when dissolving any viscous perfume materials. I add some IPM and let it marinate at least a week or so. The dark vanilla stuff will stay on the bottom and you can 'skim' the clear stuff off the top. HTH!

  4. #4

    Default Re: Diluting vanilla absolute

    Thanks.
    janmuet, Vanilla can be disolved at at least 20%. In fact my 20% dilution is more sucessful than my 10%. There must be some tricks of the trade to doing it, like doing it slowly at a particular temperature or something.

    Irina, I don't know what IPM is (or what HTH means), excuse my old age and illiteracy. I am reluctant to introduce any other chemical, I am fussy about purity and naturalness.
    "Don’t try to be original. Be simple. Be good technically, and if there is something in you, it will come out. ” - Henri Matisse.

    "Wear R de Capucci" - Hirch Duckfinder

    reviews

  5. #5

    Default Re: Diluting vanilla absolute

    Hihihi, sorry about that

    IPM = IsoPropyl Myristate, it's a solvent with nice skin properties, but indeed not natural. I have no experience to heat up alcohol dilutions but I do occasionally dilute viscous natural perfume materials in warm (jojoba) oil or waxes (soy or beeswax, whatever I have at hand) when making solid perfumes. I just let it 'simmer' for a while.

    HTH again (HTH = Hope This Helps)

    Quote Originally Posted by hirch_duckfinder View Post
    Thanks.
    janmuet, Vanilla can be disolved at at least 20%. In fact my 20% dilution is more sucessful than my 10%. There must be some tricks of the trade to doing it, like doing it slowly at a particular temperature or something.

    Irina, I don't know what IPM is (or what HTH means), excuse my old age and illiteracy. I am reluctant to introduce any other chemical, I am fussy about purity and naturalness.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Diluting vanilla absolute

    Hmm, there might be differences in solubility between the vanilla absolutes of several suppliers, but that the same batch of vanilla abs will make a 20% solution, but not a 10% solution sounds very strange.

    In that case: simply make a 20% solution and dilute that with alcohol until it is 10%...

    IPM is probably a better solvent here than alcohol, but a vanilla abs solution in IPM will not mix very well with alcohol when used in higher amounts. IPM is usualy made from fixed oils (about 78%) and isopropylalcohol (about 22%), the last usualy made from natural oil and oxygen.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Diluting vanilla absolute

    It made a solutution at both concentrations but as I said, it has a tendency to glob up on the side of the bottle and it is clearly not an easy process. For the 20% I warmed the alcohol as well as the vanilla (the vanilla is not mobile unless you warm it).
    I was just wondering if anyone with experience of making extract of vanilla absolute had done the experimentation or had knowledge they had read or had passed down to them about the best way to do it. I guess it may be to do with heat, but I'm not sure.
    Last edited by hirch_duckfinder; 28th January 2010 at 08:16 PM.
    "Don’t try to be original. Be simple. Be good technically, and if there is something in you, it will come out. ” - Henri Matisse.

    "Wear R de Capucci" - Hirch Duckfinder

    reviews

  8. #8

    Default Re: Diluting vanilla absolute

    In general absolutes and crystaline fragrance compounds will dissolve better and in a higher percentage when you heat up the mixture (of course with extreme caution because alcohol is very flamable). The drawback is that it only works as long as the temperature is elevated, at the moment you cool it down it may (partly) get solid again. Heating may speed up the proces, but it will not make any substance better soluble. Speeding up is of course good, otherwise it may take weeks before the substance is dissolved completely.

    For a single substance like coumarin you can look up the literature for solubility, but even then it doesn't always work as you would expect. For instance according to the literature is 20 gram coumarin soluble in 100 gram 90% alcohol at 20 °C. When you try, you will find that it is hard to get a solution as strong as that, 10% seems to be the strongest solution for practical use. This happens partly because even a single substance like coumarin has some impurities that make it better or less soluble. These are different from batch to batch.

    Vanilla absolute is not a single chemical, it is a chemical cocktail, consisting of hundreds of chemicals. Because the exact composition can be different depending on age, manufacturer, composition of the vanilla beans used (that depends of geographical origin, botanical variations ...) etc. the chemical composition will be different for each batch. Therefor it is harder to find accurate literature data on solubility, the best way here is trying, but it is possible that 25% is possible with one batch and only 5% with another.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Diluting vanilla absolute

    The dilution method depends on the type of extract you are using. There is a difference between an absolute and an oleoresin and each application is used differently. To make an extract from absolute you need ethyl or methyl alcohol for dilution. The absolute is used mainly in aromatherapy and soap making because it is soluble in a carrier oil. I have been trying to source a good manufacturer of absolute but have noticed that a lot of companies that are selling absolute are really selling the oleoresin and the oleoresin is made from the iso alcohol and then added to a vacuum to extract the alcohol. I am having trouble understanding the exact applications of the oleoresin I just know that cannot further dilute it. What were you trying to make?

  10. #10
    Saintpaulia's Avatar
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    Default Re: Diluting vanilla absolute

    Dear Naked (by the way what is seewt?),

    I found this thread by way of Google, as I was trying to find out more about vanilla absolutes, vanilla "essential oils", vanilla extracts, etc. It is very confusing! I notice that this thread was over a year old when you wrote yours just 3 weeks ago now. I hope you are still following this thread since you know more than I do!

    I am simply trying to learn more about the ingredients used in parfums. Vanilla being one of them. Most ingredients for parfums are essential oils and thus straightforward. Not so vanilla! I ordered some Bourbon Vanilla CO2 extract from Eden Bots. and got this solid substance which baffled me. What do I do with this? It doesn't seem soluble in ethanol. But the literature also seems to say it isn't in carrier oils either, like jojoba.

    What form or type of vanilla essence is the easiest to use for a nascent perfume student? I don't need the best highest quality vanilla, I need the easiest to work with!

    Thanks, Breck
    "Classics aren't classics because they seem old but because they seem always new". Tania Sanchez

  11. #11

    Default Re: Diluting vanilla absolute

    As I posted elsewhere after this thread, the vanilla absolute I had turned out to be water, not alcohol soluable. I'm wanting to use it for perfume.
    "Don’t try to be original. Be simple. Be good technically, and if there is something in you, it will come out. ” - Henri Matisse.

    "Wear R de Capucci" - Hirch Duckfinder

    reviews

  12. #12
    Saintpaulia's Avatar
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    Default Re: Diluting vanilla absolute

    I posted elsewheres too a nice happening today. Got a call out of the blue from Eden Botanicals. Explained the different vanilla substances they sell. The absolute is alcohol soluble. As is the oleoresin. For the CO2 extract that is easily dissolvable in carrier oil. But it must be slightly heated to be workable.
    "Classics aren't classics because they seem old but because they seem always new". Tania Sanchez

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