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  1. #1

    Default Sunscreen Application Help

    After I started using Avene Diacneal for my acne and acne scars, I was advised to use sunscreen daily. So rather impulsively I went out and got Neutrogena Ultra Sheer Waterlight Lotion SPF 50+ PA+++. So now I ain't sure when I should apply the sunscreen after moisturizer or before. The directions says to apply after moisturizer but when I checked online, some sources tell me to apply it before moisturizer and others the opposite. To my knowledge, the Neutrogena sunscreen I bought is a chemical sunscreen. A moisturizer with SPF would solve my problem but I just bought a new moisturizer without SPF a couple of weeks ago.

    Thanks for helping out
    "A parent's only as good as their dumbest kid. If one wins a Nobel Prize but the other gets robbed by a hooker, you failed."

  2. #2

    Default Re: Sunscreen Application Help

    Paula Begoun is famous for saying that it should be after the moisturizer. I disagree, I'm with the before camp.

    What you want, is the chemical sunscreen ingredients to sink into your skin and provide protection from there. They are useless laying on top of your skin, as they will wear out within an hour due to sweat, friction, etc. When you use physical blockers as TiO2 or ZnO, these need to be on top of the skin.

    When you start off with moisturizer, you saturate your skin with lotion, and when you put on the sunscreen after that, the sunscreen ingredients (if you're talking about a modern sunscreen formultation with Tinosorb, Mexoryl, Uvinul A Plus etc.) which are very big might not penetrate the skin well enough, and stay on the surface of the skin.

    The other way around: when you start with sunscreen and let it penetrate the skin, BEFORE you put moisturizer on top of it, the ingredients will all have settled in your skin. Paula Begoun talks about 'wiping sunscreen ingredients off' when you put moisturizer after sunscreen: BOLLOCKS. I don't see all my sunscreen getting out of my skin, and getting back on my fingers again. Nor do I see sunscreen dripping on the floor. The sunscreen stays in your skin, where it has been absorbed.

    As for myself: I needn't use moisturizer during the day: the carrier lotion of the sunscreen provides more than enough moisturization. Perhaps you can try this too.

    And on a side note: Paula Begoun has the worst sunscreen formulations, as her avobenzone (UV-A protection) is not properly stabilized as for example the Neutrogena with its 'Helioplex' is. Using Paula's Choice as sunscreen is the equivalent of using a paper umbrella. It's just very hypocritical of this company.
    Last edited by Stereotomy; 3rd February 2010 at 08:39 AM.
    Wanted: a cap of Bvlgari Thé Vert

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    Feel free to visit Polderposh - a young up & coming Dutch fragrance blog!

  3. #3

    Default Re: Sunscreen Application Help

    <SIGH>

    Stereotomy and I have history on this topic.

    Sunscreen last. Sunscreen should be applied to clean, dry skin at least 20 minutes before going outside. You'll also be aware that sunscreen should be re-applied - so, you know, you'll be applying it a few hours later on top of the moisturiser if you did sunscreen first. In other words, if you're applying properly, sunscreen ends up last anyway.

    Given your acne problem, can I suggest the third way - and that is don't moisturise in the morning. Chances are (because of your acne) that your skin doesn't need the moisture. Apply moisturiser, or hydration, at night instead. That way you're only using sunscreen in the morning (and through the day) so you don't have a "first or last" dilema at all.
    Last edited by Dr_Rudi; 3rd February 2010 at 09:23 AM.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Sunscreen Application Help

    I would only apply SS in the morning, leaving your moisturizer without SS for the night. In this way, problem solved.

    I use Paula Begoun's sunscreen at my derm's advice, and I'm very happy with them. Not planning on changes since SS choices here are not as broad as in the States (ie. we do have Neutrogena products but not their SS, and so on... )

  5. #5

    Default Re: Sunscreen Application Help

    Quote Originally Posted by Baldufita View Post
    I would only apply SS in the morning, leaving your moisturizer without SS for the night. In this way, problem solved.

    I use Paula Begoun's sunscreen at my derm's advice, and I'm very happy with them. Not planning on changes since SS choices here are not as broad as in the States (ie. we do have Neutrogena products but not their SS, and so on... )
    You don't want to use American sunscreens, when you have access to more modern European sunscreens. In the states many people spend fortunes to import European sunscreens while the FDA reluctantly and slowly approves many modern ingredients that have been approved for ages in Europe, Japan and Australia.

    http://www.healthcentral.com/skin-ca...2/mexoryl-buzz

    http://www.plasmetic.com/skin/skin-c...unscreens.html

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/anne-c...a_b_59080.html

    Just type 'European sunscreen' into Google and all the results on the first page is by Americans who are desperately trying to get hold of European sunscreen whilst complaining about American sunscreen ingredients.

    Paula's Choice uses older generations sunscreen ingredients such as Oxybenzone and Homosalate. In Europe, companies use newer, more effective and more safe formulations including Tinosorb and Mexoryl. These are more expensive to produce, but due to their efficiacy, nobody ever uses the ingredients anymore that are still massively found in American sunscreens.

    I dig and use some of Paula's Choice's other products, but her sunscreens are a big joke.

    @ JoNnY 4, have you tried using sunscreen without moisturizer? If you feel your skin is a bit too dry to do that, you could also using a toner instead of the moisturizer.
    Last edited by Stereotomy; 3rd February 2010 at 01:04 PM.
    Wanted: a cap of Bvlgari Thé Vert

    Wanted: L' Artisan Timbuktu or Fragonard Concerto

    Feel free to visit Polderposh - a young up & coming Dutch fragrance blog!

  6. #6

    Default Re: Sunscreen Application Help

    I see you're in The Netherlands... Which sunscreens would you recommend? I'm open to suggestions!!

  7. #7

    Default Re: Sunscreen Application Help

    Thank you for the replies. The posts have been very informative and the before or after moisturizer debate rages on

    I'm going to try both ways for a few days first and see which one works best for me. But I am leaning towards applying sunscreen before moisturizer.

    @Stereotomy, the Neutrogena sunscreen does not provide sufficient moisturization to my skin so I'll definitely need to moisturize in the morning. My toner is alcohol based so it won't be of any benefit in terms of hydration.
    "A parent's only as good as their dumbest kid. If one wins a Nobel Prize but the other gets robbed by a hooker, you failed."

  8. #8

    Default Re: Sunscreen Application Help

    Jonny, I would switch toners... Alcohol products are no good...

  9. #9

    Default Re: Sunscreen Application Help

    Quote Originally Posted by Baldufita View Post
    Jonny, I would switch toners... Alcohol products are no good...
    Yeah I know. I've not been using my toner for the past week or so already. My skin neither got better or worse without toner.
    "A parent's only as good as their dumbest kid. If one wins a Nobel Prize but the other gets robbed by a hooker, you failed."

  10. #10

    Default Re: Sunscreen Application Help

    Actually, even sunscreens from store brands (do you have Kruidvat in Belgium?) are very well formulated with the newer ingredients.

    As for myself, I really like the ROC line of products, because they have either 4- or 5-star UVA protection, which means equal to 80%-99% the equivalent UVA-protection compared to the SPF number. As you perhaps know, the SPF number only tells you about UVB-protection, and nothing about UVA-protection. UVB are the rays mainly responsible for sunburn, UVA responsible for accumulated slow aging of the skin.

    I understand this is technical mumbo-jumbo, but you can read more here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunscre..._rating_system

    To get back on the UVA-protection, I just made a picture of my sunscreen:



    As you can see, this SPF 30 has 5-star UVA protection, which means a UVA/PPD of more than 27, which is excellent, and more than any American sunscreen can reach, as their only wholeband UVA-protection ingredient is avobenzone, which in Paula's Choice case, isn't even stabilized. The sunscreens from Neutrogena with Helioplex, are.

    Anyway, Baldufita in case you wanted to skip the technical part and just want recommendations: I really, really like the ROC Minesol SPF 40 Velvet Lotion. Excellent UVA-protection, very dry and smooth and not oily on your skin. It's 150 ml for 17 EUR, and if you use it for your face only, each day, should last you over a year even when applied liberally.

    You can find it here: http://rocbeloofthetu.nl/lait_velours

    And I'm really shocked about your dermatologist. It sounds like he hasn't kept up with the latest developments in science in his field. I work with doctors a lot and while most are very keen on staying up-to-date and informed, some still use the knowledge they acquired 20 years ago when they left medical school. As you notice, I can get pretty upset by this.
    Last edited by Stereotomy; 4th February 2010 at 12:28 PM.
    Wanted: a cap of Bvlgari Thé Vert

    Wanted: L' Artisan Timbuktu or Fragonard Concerto

    Feel free to visit Polderposh - a young up & coming Dutch fragrance blog!

  11. #11

    Default Re: Sunscreen Application Help

    Quote Originally Posted by JoNnY 4 View Post
    Thank you for the replies. The posts have been very informative and the before or after moisturizer debate rages on

    I'm going to try both ways for a few days first and see which one works best for me. But I am leaning towards applying sunscreen before moisturizer.

    @Stereotomy, the Neutrogena sunscreen does not provide sufficient moisturization to my skin so I'll definitely need to moisturize in the morning. My toner is alcohol based so it won't be of any benefit in terms of hydration.
    You're already doing a great job by indeed wearing sunscreen. That's most important. You should feel good about wearing sunscreen, so indeed, maybe personal preference about moisturizer vs. sunscreen is the best.
    Last edited by Stereotomy; 4th February 2010 at 12:26 PM.
    Wanted: a cap of Bvlgari Thé Vert

    Wanted: L' Artisan Timbuktu or Fragonard Concerto

    Feel free to visit Polderposh - a young up & coming Dutch fragrance blog!

  12. #12

    Default Re: Sunscreen Application Help

    Thanks, Stereotomy! We do have Kruidvat in Belgium (I'm "well known" there... ), and I've used the No-Ad sunscreens from there (are they any good?). As soon as I finish my current sunscreen (almost finished) I'll check the RoC out... It sounds perfect!

  13. #13

    Default Re: Sunscreen Application Help

    Hm, No-Ad is an American brand. Unless they altered their formulation for Europe, it wouldn't be that much better than Paula's. I'll go to the Kruidvat in a couple of hours, I'll read the ingredient list and let you know.

    According to this webpage, the SPF 30 US version has:

    Ingredients:

    Active Ingredients: Octinoxate (Ethylhexyl Methoxycinnamate) 7.5%, Octisalate (Ethylhexyl Salicylate) 5.0%, Oxybenzone (Benzophenone-3) 5.0%.

    http://www.discountbeautycenter.com/...PF30-38818.htm
    It doesn't have any significant UVA-protection (Oxybenzone is an UVA II protector, but that leaves UVA I exposed) and no company in his right mind in Europe would use those archaic ingredients as Octinoxate and Octisalate in its fomulations anymore. Just like no-one would ask Tom Selleck to star in movies anymore.

    It's better to focus on European brands, like L'Oreal, Garnier, ROC, Nivea with broad spectrum (UVB and UVA) protection.
    Last edited by Stereotomy; 4th February 2010 at 01:01 PM.
    Wanted: a cap of Bvlgari Thé Vert

    Wanted: L' Artisan Timbuktu or Fragonard Concerto

    Feel free to visit Polderposh - a young up & coming Dutch fragrance blog!

  14. #14

    Default Re: Sunscreen Application Help

    Another thing I'll like to ask,

    Is there a proper way to apply sunscreens and moisturizers ? Normally I squeeze some onto my left palm and I use the fingertips of my right hand to massage the product into the skin...I end up massaging too hard most of the time and my face goes red for a while. It never crossed my mind before whether this is a correct way or not.
    "A parent's only as good as their dumbest kid. If one wins a Nobel Prize but the other gets robbed by a hooker, you failed."

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