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  1. #1
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    Question Is the elaborate packaging backfiring on By Kilian?

    Just a little rant here. I'm getting pretty tired of hearing 'pricey' comments about this line. And without evidence proving otherwise I find it quite ridiculous, absurd even, to make assumptions and blame the price on the rather elaborate packaging.

    Seriously do we actually know By Kilian's cost structure and breakdown by components? Or do you sleep easier with a more drab-looking Creed bottle or Lutens bell jar that just cost you $200-$400+, secure in the belief (LOL) that most of the $ actually went towards producing the juice? If that's not naivete, I don't know what is.

    Obviously By Kilian is targeted at select groups of consumers who appreciate having their favorite perfumes in presentable packages. Those who baulk at paying retail for a nicely packaged bottle can always get the travel refills. So I don't see why 'pricey' must be bandied about whenever By Kilian is discussed. To think many vintage perfumes used to come in Baccarat crystal bottles... I don't hear as many complaints about inflated prices there.

    OK. There you go. I feel so much better already...
    Last edited by Diamondflame; 11th February 2010 at 01:07 PM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Is the elaborate packaging backfiring on By Kilian?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondflame View Post
    Seriously do we actually know By Kilian's cost structure and breakdown by components?
    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondflame View Post
    Creed bottle or Lutens bell jar that just cost you $200-$400+, secure in the belief (LOL) that most of the $ actually went towards producing the juice? If that's not naivete, I don't know what is.
    You're contradicting yourself here.

    Not only do you cast a doubt upon everybody's (hence your usage of "we" rather than "I" or "you") understanding/knowledge about Killian's cost structure, you also seem confident in claiming (the "LOL" did you in here) Creed's and Lutens' juices cost mere a fraction of the cost to make. That probably is true in most cases (and for Killian as well), but that isn't the point here.

    So, since you asked the question anyway -- do you know Killian's cost structure? Or Creed's? Or Lutens'? (I don't). How, then, are you so confident about disagreeing with others' about Killian's pricing, and going on to judge Creed and Lutens pricing?

    Personally I have no problems to whichever might be the case, I'm just trying to understand, is all.


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  3. #3
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    Default Re: Is the elaborate packaging backfiring on By Kilian?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amit View Post
    You're contradicting yourself here.
    >>Really? Please enlighten me.

    Not only do you cast a doubt upon everybody's (hence your usage of "we" rather than "I" or "you") understanding/knowledge about Killian's cost structure, you also seem confident in claiming (the "LOL" did you in here) Creed's and Lutens' juices cost mere a fraction of the cost to make. That probably is true in most cases (and for Killian as well), but that isn't the point here.

    >>Thanks Amit. Indeed that wasn't the point at all. Perhaps you misunderstood my post somewhat. The 'LOL' came after 'belief' which is essentially what assumptions often hinge on. That's what I was pointing at - laughably ridiculous assumptions.

    Nowhere in my post did I claim that Creed or Lutens' juice cost a fraction so I have no idea where you got that from. Not another assumption, I hope. And the difference of using 'you' or 'I' instead of 'we'? They both assume either you know or I know the cost structure, when it is far more likely that neither of us know for certain, hence 'we'.

    So, since you asked the question anyway -- do you know Killian's cost structure? Or Creed's? Or Lutens'? (I don't). How, then, are you so confident about disagreeing with others' about Killian's pricing, and going on to judge Creed and Lutens pricing?

    >> That's some leap of argument, my friend. Sorry my dear Amit but I don't recall claiming any knowledge of Kilian's cost structure in this thread nor making any judgements about Creed or Lutens' pricing. Nowhere in this post did I say Creed or Lutens' juice isn't worth their price tags. I was only ranting at By Kilian detractors who seem to make a habit of 'dissing' the pricing on account of the excellent packaging when many of them don't actually know the cost structure. Do I need to know about Kilian's cost structure in order to raise this issue? NO.
    English is only my second language so I apologise if my thread wasn't as clear as it could have been. Perhaps you'd like to show me a better way of writing it. I'm always open to useful knowledge, Amit and I don't mean this in a patronising way..
    Last edited by Diamondflame; 11th February 2010 at 03:16 PM.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Is the elaborate packaging backfiring on By Kilian?

    Double Bubble Post.
    Last edited by Amit; 11th February 2010 at 05:23 PM.


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  5. #5

    Default Re: Is the elaborate packaging backfiring on By Kilian?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondflame View Post
    Really? Please enlighten me.
    Maybe when you're sober enough

    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondflame View Post
    The 'LOL' came after 'belief' which is essentially what assumptions often hinge on. That's what I was pointing at - laughably ridiculous assumptions.
    Exactly, my friend, exactly. And you did the same thing here -- by assuming the Killian detractors were wrong -- wherein stems the roots of your "rant".

    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondflame View Post
    That's some leap of argument, my friend. Sorry my dear Amit but I don't recall claiming any knowledge of Kilian's cost structure in this thread nor making any judgements about Creed or Lutens' pricing. Nowhere in this post did I say Creed or Lutens' juice isn't worth their price tags. I was only ranting at By Kilian detractors who seem to make a habit of 'dissing' the pricing on account of the excellent packaging when many of them don't actually know the cost structure.


    And I didn't once accuse you of claiming you were informed about Kilian's cost structure. I was merely inquiring whether you knew it. And don't point at me please, it was you, afterall, who dragged Creed and Lutens into the Killian cost structure equation, not me. Essentially, you've dodged my real question here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondflame View Post
    Do I need to know about Kilian's cost structure in order to raise this issue? NO.

    Matter of factly, you do need to know about cost structures before you decide to rant about others not agreeing with your assessments about any perfumer's pricing structure. You do need to know, at the very least, some pointers to justify why exactly do you not agree -- to add any weight to your arguments -- without which they're basseless, plain and simple


    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondflame View Post
    English is only my second language so I apologise if my thread wasn't as clear as it could have been. Perhaps you'd like to show me a better way of writing it. I'm always open to useful knowledge, Amit and I don't mean this in a patronising way..
    To be completely honest, you said Rant but I heard a whine

    Oh, English isn't my first language either -- it's Marathi -- question is, for how much longer are people going to use that (English not being their first language) as an argument before creating baseless rant threads

    What you've done here, precisely, is answer your own questions thereby rendering this thread quite redundant in essence. Especially since there's already a monolithic thread on dedicated to "rants" of all shapes, forms and sizes.
    Last edited by Amit; 11th February 2010 at 05:33 PM. Reason: typos


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  6. #6

    Default Re: Is the elaborate packaging backfiring on By Kilian?

    Hmm, well besides the joy of reading the tirades from you two..*Oh, jokes, they're aren't legitimate tirades, just metaphorically...to appease and amuse my senses * I agree that we'll never know the exact cost structures on By Kilians products, creeds products and Lutens products...all we'll know is if we like the Colloids and structures that have been Imbibed into it's bottle...Ie; I think Chanel 19 is definitely worth the money...though..where as Amouage Gold is definitely not worth the money...structure that is appreciated from my senses is all that matters, Price does tell a story...though the structure itemizes the person, *My personal beliefs*...Hell I prefer A $25 Bottle of Quorum then Amouage Jubilation...Even if I considered quorum stark in it's changes, it just appeals to me more!

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  7. #7
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    Default Re: Is the elaborate packaging backfiring on By Kilian?

    Ooh. Touche.

    I don't know the cost structures for certain. In all likelihood neither do these detractors who assume Kilian pricing is jacked up by exorbitant-looking packaging. Hell, I could be wrong and they could well be right. But until we are presented with the facts & figures, I and anyone else have every right to raise the possibility that these detractors could be wrong. I'm not leveling accusations at anybody, I am merely questioning the validity of those assumptions particularly in the absence of conclusive supporting evidence. So tell me, where exactly is the contradiction? Telling me to 'sober up' is just side-stepping this question...

    Anyway, this isn't meant to be a debate. May I also suggest you look up the definition of 'rant'?

    'Whine'? LOL. OK, if calling my rant a 'whine' makes you feel better, then a 'whine' it is. The last time I check, Grant is still the forum administrator and anyone is free to post a thread, even inane ones. If this is not the right forum for this topic, I'm pretty sure Grant could move it. Or am I missing something here? Why do I get this weird feeling like I just stepped on a hornets' nest or something, LOL. So how about a chill pill, my friend?

    Balava,
    I believe if you love a juice well enough, you tend to rationalise its purchase, even if it is pricey. But I admit attractive pricing do entice value-seeking consumers into making a purchase.
    Last edited by Diamondflame; 12th February 2010 at 03:30 PM.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Is the elaborate packaging backfiring on By Kilian?

    *handing you a tissue*

    Please wipe the froth off your mouth, it's distracting me.

    When I read your first reply to me, I knew almost immediately you were off the mark by a few inches while spraying your frag on your neck earlier this day. Alcohol works in stranger ways, which is what my earlier 'sober' remark was all about. Oh, and I forgive you already, I knew intercepting it was way out of your league.

    Okay, let's do this again *pulls a chair and sits in front of you*

    Are you trying to act obtuse on purpose, or are you just attempting to be funny? It doesn't matter anymore actually because the only common factor here is that you're failing at both.

    All that hammy gibberish and yet not a single argument supporting your assessment as to *why exactly* do you feel the Killian detractors are wrong, and you right?

    And then you brought Grant into it? LOL. Just because I asked you a question which you didn't have an answer to? Are you kidding me or what? Oh how so babyish of you. Maybe you'll summon Mother Teresa next?

    I'm sure Grant'll have a neat chuckle outta this when he reads it.

    Also, can you go ahead and show me where I forbade you from posting _any_ amount of inane threads your heart desires? That's right -- you can't, because I never forbade you.

    But I don't think i'm wrong in hoping that you at the very minimum should know what you're rambling on about. You are the thread starter, after all and you should at the very least carry the capability to answer questions to your own statements.

    And I'm sure Grant will agree with me on that.

    Therefore, I'm at a loss to understand as to why exactly are you unnecessarily engaging a "defensive" mode when the simplest questions are asked. You could've just answered my question?

    Perhaps you were expecting everyone to just agree with you and post in affirmity, but I asked you one question and off you go into an epileptic fit in cyberspace. I also suggest you stop using the staler than fungus infested bread "english is not my first language" sarcasmic twist. Yes, it's really that stale and completely unfunny.

    Heck, I could've baked myself an apple pie in the time it took me to wade past your extremely queer method of post-quoting earlier.

    Mmm... Pie.

    That's it -- I'm off to bake me a pie.
    Last edited by Amit; 12th February 2010 at 03:40 PM. Reason: pie


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  9. #9
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    Default Re: Is the elaborate packaging backfiring on By Kilian?

    *slaps forehead* "D'oh."
    *sigh....*
    *wipes the "froth off my mouth"*

    Since I tend to spray my chest, rather than neck, maybe I missed the mark by more than a couple of inches.
    I didn't spray the perfume at you by accident, did I?

    Mmm... something smells lovely. May I have a piece of that apple pie, Amit. I love apple pies.
    Last edited by Diamondflame; 12th February 2010 at 03:43 PM.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Is the elaborate packaging backfiring on By Kilian?

    Most definitely -- you know the phrase, "Sharing is caring"

    And spray at me by accident? Even if you did, I greatly doubt the spray mist can travel all the way from Singapore to Mumbai.

    How absurd, isn't it?
    Last edited by Amit; 12th February 2010 at 03:48 PM.


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  11. #11
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    Default Re: Is the elaborate packaging backfiring on By Kilian?

    Haha. Indeed. That piece of apple pie has a better chance of reaching me...

  12. #12

    Default Re: Is the elaborate packaging backfiring on By Kilian?

    Backs away slowly...


    Just want to throw this point in there - It might not be about the actual cost per se, more about the PERCEPTION of the whole thing. Like "I'm paying $300 for the bottle?".
    Then again, guys like Creed or Bond might actually take a cue and make slightly nicer ones to encourage (some) buyers to pay a little more for them.
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  13. #13
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    Default Re: Is the elaborate packaging backfiring on By Kilian?

    It is not my intention to fuel the ongoing argument in this thread but, who cares what the production cost structure is? If the juice is in a beautiful artistic bottle (like some of the Lalique crystal creations) then it is a experience of duality. Art in the juice and Art in the bottle. Those who collect perfume bottles will attest that these bottle are physical evidence of great days of fragrance past. Would I pay more for such a fragrance/bottle? Yes.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Is the elaborate packaging backfiring on By Kilian?

    To be honest, I think arguing whether or not perfume is 'worth the money' is a moot argument in a way.

    1. Do you like the smell?
    2. Do you LOVE the smell?
    3. How much is that worth to you?
    4. Do you feel ripped off?

    Those are the important questions to ask when you buy perfume. Whether to use synthetics, naturals, cheap blends, expensive blends, cheap packaging, ludicrous packaging - the perfume is ultimately a combination of artistic, stylistic and business decisions from the point of view of those producing it. I'm yet to see a business that wouldn't need to make profit in order to exist, but if they do their job properly, their target customers will not feel ripped off with the end products. If you feel ripped off, they've either got it wrong or you're not their target customer.

    I know I'm not the target customer for Bond No9 (for example) - they seem very packaging-led, image and status-conscious and aimed at the luxury-end of the market. I like a couple of their scents (and was given one of them as a present by a very generous colleague), but I cringe at the thought of spending the money on what I consider a pretty bottle and average juice. But I'm cool with that. The right customer - the customer Bond No9 has in mind - will absolutely lust after the scents and bottles. And, I must add that they've done a clever thing I wish most of these luxury brands would do, which is to offer a plain(er) packaging choice for those who happen to fall in love with the juice, but aren't buying the scent as a status indicator.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Is the elaborate packaging backfiring on By Kilian?

    Nukapai, you are right on target!

    I approach perfume purchase in many ways: First, my price range! I buy some for the bottle (I admit to buying just for the bottle when I have no intention of wearing the juice), some for just the scent, and some for both bottle and scent.

    I am not particularly a fan of Bond No. 9, but many people swear by the line for both the unique bottles and the scents. Chacun a son gout--each has his own taste.

    In 99% of the cases, I buy for the scent--after all, it's the scent we go for. By Kilian have the elegant, distinctive bottles presented like jewellery in a locked box. The scents are truly exotic creations, if Back to Black is any indication, as it's the only scent from the line I have tried.

    I concur with Diamondflame that the small purse atomiser with refills are one way to buy some of these more expensive scents as it is cheaper this way. (Kilian has these and also Juliette Has A Gun with its "bullet flacon.")

    What I *do* like about By Kilian is the ability to refill and the environmental statement in the packaging insert which encourages the purchase of refills. The insert states, "Please enjoy this product for your lifetime." The bottle is intended for numerous refills.

    All in all, the right customer with the ready cash will not blink at the pricetag, whatever the bottle and whatever the contents.
    "No sweet perfume ever tortured me more than this." Desert Rose by Sting and Cheb Mami, Album 1999.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Is the elaborate packaging backfiring on By Kilian?

    And with all this in grasp...My Friends, I Profess...."SAMPLE!!!!".

    Thank you, that is all

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  17. #17
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    Default Re: Is the elaborate packaging backfiring on By Kilian?

    Throwing this out there.

    The By Kilian has the actual formulas of all the fragrances he creates, so shop the list around and see how much it would cost to make it yourself, double that cost at least for all the logistics, and see how close you are to the final pricetag.

    He's the only one I know of that's completely open as to his formulas.

    Put up or shut up, in other words.
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  18. #18
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    Default Re: Is the elaborate packaging backfiring on By Kilian?

    Well put, my friends. I think By Kilian has done quite well covering the bases, with travel spray, refills, nicely packaged full bottles, etc.
    Perception is definitely an issue here (thanks, Master-Classter) and Nukapai is right on the money wrt to target-marketing decisions. If I love a juice but it comes in a fugly bottle, I'd rather buy a decant of it. But I wouldn't buy a scent just because it comes in a great looking bottle.. But as N_Tesla pointed out, 'art in a bottle and art in the juice' would probably be my ideal choice (as long as it is wearable), with price as a secondary consideration.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Is the elaborate packaging backfiring on By Kilian?

    Quote Originally Posted by bluesoul View Post
    Throwing this out there.

    The By Kilian has the actual formulas of all the fragrances he creates, so shop the list around and see how much it would cost to make it yourself, double that cost at least for all the logistics, and see how close you are to the final pricetag.

    He's the only one I know of that's completely open as to his formulas.

    Put up or shut up, in other words.
    Yes, it's all there on the Web site...

    This is a good point.
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  20. #20
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    Default Re: Is the elaborate packaging backfiring on By Kilian?

    Now that this thread seems to have calmed, I have a By Kilian story...

    I really fell in love with their Pure Oud. I sprayed it at the store and managed to get it all over my jacket. I spent the next week falling in love with its amazing evergreen forest basenotes. I went back and sprayed it again. Same reaction. So I started saving up. Almost $400 for a frag? My head knew better (it's Givaudan's oud accord, certainly not worth that kind of money).

    Then, I finally tried real oud oil. And it did everything I loved about the Kilian - same beautiful top and forest base. To top it off, it was Cambodian oud, the cheap, "beginners" oud. And it cost about $60 a bottle, if that.

    And that's what forced me to realize that I liked the whole package from Kilian. I still wanted that bottle and the box (it's the oud collection so it's gold-plated!). I want to be doted on by the SA's and given samples. I wanted to feel $400-fancy-bottle special, not $60-on-the-internet un-special. I know it's stupid, but I'm not sure I care.

    Why would I, a decently-well-informed perfume consumer even consider paying $340 more than I have to for a fancy bottle and a box and "status"?

    In the end, I'm sure I won't. $400 is a LOT of money. But the fact that I still kind of want to buy it is the magic of marketing and the By Kilian aura.
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  21. #21

    Default Re: Is the elaborate packaging backfiring on By Kilian?

    Quote Originally Posted by rogalal View Post

    In the end, I'm sure I won't. $400 is a LOT of money. But the fact that I still kind of want to buy it is the magic of marketing and the By Kilian aura.
    I read one review that said Back to Black smelled just like expensive barbershop powder and Flowerbomb by V&R...

    But, yes, the boxes and bottles are to die for! Black on black designs, presented in lined boxes with locks and tassels.
    "No sweet perfume ever tortured me more than this." Desert Rose by Sting and Cheb Mami, Album 1999.

  22. #22

    Default Re: Is the elaborate packaging backfiring on By Kilian?

    To be honest I found the By Kilian strategy a bit confusing. My take on it (this is from following the way the brand rolled stuff out on luckyscent) was:

    1. Desirable and uber exclusive pricey 'refillable' bottles in gorgeous box.
    2. Desirable and still pricey but more accessible travel pack with nice metal travel thing.
    3. Ooops - sales a bit light, let's sell bottles - the 'refills'.
    4. Hmmm - could use a little more revenue so lets offer BIG refills or refills without the metal travel thing, or . . . whatever.

    I may be off here but that's what it LOOKED like to me as time passed. I bought the laquer box of Taste of Heaven and the travel set of Straight to Heaven and I still don't know if I paid too much or should have waited because it all just got too damn confusing. OK, now I can buy a set of travel refills, oh wait a minute, I need to own the metal thing, oh no, but I have call by phone, oh, I should fly to France and watch the perfumer refilling my bottle from a sacred urn . . . are they making this up as they go along?

    That said:

    I like Taste of Heaven a lot but have no need for the box - so this qualifies as an 'extravagance' to me, personally, but presumably I can buy another bottle at a more realistic price at some point.

    I don't like Straight to Heaven but I do like the metal travel thing and having 4 refillable 10ml decant size bottles for short haul trips is handy so this qualifies as an ill-judged perfume purchase with a practical happy ending hardware-wise.

    Now all of this is just the opinion / experience of one over zealous consumer (back when the line was launched) but going back to the original OP question I think it's not so much the packaging itself but the 'fits and starts' of how variations on the product line have been rolled out that makes me think that company is in danger of alienating potential customers through sheer bad planning . . . frankly I still don't know if I 'fell for' the initial high priced burst and those who bought the 'refills' later are laughing behind my back or not. I don't really care, mind you, but I'm not really in any hurry to track down anything else from Kilian at this point - it's JUST TOO MUCH EFFORT . . . should I wait till the 'economy version' package comes out, oh, maybe there will be a sampler set with 4 scents . . . maybe not? Life is too short.

    Personally I could live with all perfumes coming in 15 ml Hermes travel bottles, 30 ml Parfums de Nicolai bottles, 50ml Lutens bottles, and maybe the big ones in the Cologne du 68 bottle - I like that aesthetic. I'm a simple soul

    Short answer - I think the consumers are under-writing their R&D for product design and marketing.
    Last edited by mr. reasonable; 13th February 2010 at 06:32 AM. Reason: typo

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Is the elaborate packaging backfiring on By Kilian?

    Thanks Mr R. It did appear that way to me too but I have yet to buy a full bottle so it didn't matter. But I've heard gripes from a few who had bought the whole package only to see the travel refills appearing months after their purchase. But this may not be a necessarily bad thing. Perhaps By Kilian listen to the consumers' gripes and start making their scents a little more accessible? I just wish Amouage, even Creed would do likewise with their line...

    Btw how much do you think an empty By Kilian bottle + box set can sell for? I haven't seen one listed on eBay yet.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Is the elaborate packaging backfiring on By Kilian?

    I have to agree that By Kilian does get a bit of a bad rap around here, which I believe to be quite undeserving. If anyone pokes fun at the way they go about marketing their product I challenge that person to run a perfume company that outdoes By Kilian in pure profits alone. It may provide us lowly citizens with a chuckle here and there, as is often the case when we can't afford 'said' luxury product, but when all is said and done, I know By Kilian has a bank account I could only dream of!

    PS Balava, I hope you are not criticizing Amouage's pricing as you seem to have mentioned them twice in one post!

  25. #25

    Default Re: Is the elaborate packaging backfiring on By Kilian?

    Luxury products are luxury products: period. They command high prices because people will pay. My only sampling has been Back to Black and I find it wonderful and bottle-worthy, but I cannot now afford such things. This will be on a birthday or Christmas wish list for me.

    I find the scents (if BTB is exemplary of the line) to be a cut above the average, and I think the packaging is marvelous. Has anyone seen the travel case and what a little gem it is? Have you played with one? (Yes, the cap is a blast!) Hefted one in the hand? Yet many of us think nothing of forking out $200 USD for some EDT of Chanel Exclusif scent in a plain glass bottle.

    I do have my price limitations. I cannot, on humble income, see buying the new scents for almost $400 USD. But, then again, if I became the mistress of a wealthy dandy...he could buy one for me...and one for himself...
    Last edited by Primrose; 13th February 2010 at 07:29 PM.
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  26. #26

    Default Re: Is the elaborate packaging backfiring on By Kilian?

    delete
    Last edited by syntheticangel; 31st March 2012 at 04:06 AM. Reason: delete

  27. #27
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    Default Re: Is the elaborate packaging backfiring on By Kilian?

    I suspect some of this has to do with resentment over the fact that so many apparently "must-have" fragrances are so darned expensive.

    Despite all the follderall about rare ingredients and materials prices, that aspect of things can get tiresome for some, particularly for those in the hobby who from a economic standpoint find themselves located well outside the demographic that these things, in their full-bottle original-packaging glory, are so obviously targeted at.

    Personally, I understand quite well that if I'm fortunate, I'll end up with a pricy 5ml decant in a cheap plastic sprayer, rather than the fancy bottle with the marble bust on the cap.

  28. #28

    Default Re: Is the elaborate packaging backfiring on By Kilian?

    The Kilian frags are supposedly made of the very finest ingredients. Being in the position of making my own as a sheer hobby. I have looked up many of his compositions with a view to learning from them and I can vouch for the fact that many of his ingredients are the very best available and very expensive indeed. To wish to present the best ingredients in the very best packaging doesn't present a problem really. It is merely a way of conveying luxury to others in a designer way.

    If you want a cheaper thing without the fuss, you can have it in sample form or decant or refill. Isn't the perception of luxury dependent on the frillies and the quality together? What use is a designer bag if no-one can see it when an Asda plastic bag performs the same physical performance? Which would you actually like to have to please yourself?

    Interestingly the by Kilian frags have different designers assigned to them; Calice Becker and Sidonie Lancesseur. It doesn't say who blended the Oud range. It would be interesting to know how much of a hand Kilian had in each.

  29. #29

    Default Re: Is the elaborate packaging backfiring on By Kilian?

    I had to post a rant a couple weeks ago. I find people complaining about price somewhat annoying... the value you find in a frag is very subjective. It can have the best of everything but if you don't like it, it has no value to you...

    Their prices aren't any worse that any other niche house, and the quality of ingredients makes the prices justified.

    I can't BELIEVE how many people rant about By Kilian's pricing! It's ridiculous, and is a HUGE PITA to deal with, we can't talk about this house without people complaining! If you don't like it, GO BUY SOMETHING ELSE! I Don't care about your personal ideas about whats too much money or not!

    The funny thing is, people get all butt-hurt about pricing because they offer refills and regular bottles that cost a lot more. So because they offer you a choice of packaging... and the refill prices are VERY reasonable... people bitch and moan? Give me a break. I don't hear this level of discussion about price on any other house, and the funny thing is, there are many perfumes you can buy that don't offer you as good of a value for money as By Kilian.

    So anyway... if you can't or don't want to afford a particular frag, then great, that's your choice. NOBODY ELSE CARES ABOUT YOUR VALUE JUDGEMENTS!!!!

  30. #30
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    Default Re: Is the elaborate packaging backfiring on By Kilian?

    If there is something I want and feel it will enhance my collection price will not figure into my decision to buy it, whether it be By Kilian, or Lomani.

  31. #31

    Default Re: Is the elaborate packaging backfiring on By Kilian?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondflame View Post
    I believe if you love a juice well enough, you tend to rationalise its purchase.....
    I think this is absolutely true and a big part of the reason price is a more of a talking point for some houses than others.
    Some seem to be easy to rationaise for the majority of people (like Lutens, Malle etc) while others (Bond, Xerjoff, CC (hadn't noticed Kilian myself actually)) are not. I guess the only thing to think about is why this is the case.

    Personally I have no issue with value judgements as long as they're specific and explain why the poster has their point of view.
    It's only the general one's like "all Kilian/Creed/Bond ore overprices etc etc" that annoys me.

  32. #32

    Default Re: Is the elaborate packaging backfiring on By Kilian?

    double post............

  33. #33

    Default Re: Is the elaborate packaging backfiring on By Kilian?

    Well, 2 years on and it looks to me like the options for HOW you can purchase from By Kilian have panned out very nicely.

    The customer has the option of a very nice laquer box-set or metal travel spray presentation (beautiful for gifts) OR the basic refill bottle or travel refills, just the jus with no trimmings - thoughtful, user friendly, cool.

  34. #34

    Default Re: Is the elaborate packaging backfiring on By Kilian?

    by Kilian uses quality ingredients (regardless of whether synthetic or natural).

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  35. #35

    Default Re: Is the elaborate packaging backfiring on By Kilian?

    I might be in the minority here, but By Kilian's presentation is so over the top to put a fragrance in it's laughable. It's a direct rip off from the watch market. I have a Chase Durer watch box that looks almost just like it except it's brown. My favorite packaging is a well designed outer box that protects the fragrance, a nice looking clean designed bottle that has some weight to it and has a great sprayer. What the hell is he trying to sell in a wooden box, with a key, and a satin cloth inlay? I bet if you took out the bottle and asked 100 people what product would go in that box less than 2% would guess a bottle of cologne.

  36. #36

    Default Re: Is the elaborate packaging backfiring on By Kilian?

    Quote Originally Posted by silentrich View Post
    What the hell is he trying to sell in a wooden box, with a key, and a satin cloth inlay? I bet if you took out the bottle and asked 100 people what product would go in that box less than 2% would guess a bottle of cologne.
    You are obviously not his targeted market.
    I'm sure there are 100 people or more who would be shocked at your perfume hobby, in the same way you say 100 people would not guess that a perfume goes into that box.
    Its all subjective really.

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  37. #37
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    Default Re: Is the elaborate packaging backfiring on By Kilian?

    Lol. My 2 year old thread! We have a necromancer among us?

    But yeah, 2 years on and things have indeed changed. The likes of CC and Xerjoff with their Murano glass bottles have made By Killian look like a bargain! My wife even came close to buying the ornate yet gorgeous gold purse atomizer from BK's Arabian Nights series. I love beautiful packaging. I even have a display unit custom designed to look like designer boutiques' window displays. All i need now are some fancy fragrance bottles.
    Last edited by Diamondflame; 3rd April 2012 at 06:46 AM.

  38. #38

    Default Re: Is the elaborate packaging backfiring on By Kilian?

    Oops, I didn't notice the age of the thread!

    Oh well.....

  39. #39

    Default Re: Is the elaborate packaging backfiring on By Kilian?

    oops, neither did I.

    The reason old threads get resurrected so easily is because the suggestion box at the bottom of similar threads often has very elderly ones in it, so one thinks they are current without looking properly. Just look below, 2009, 2008, 2006 and 1970!!!!!

  40. #40

    Default Re: Is the elaborate packaging backfiring on By Kilian?

    These are some of the most poorly blended juices I've smelled, especially those scent by the nose Sidonie Lanceusser. Pure Oud is the best of what I've tried but it's merely alright - nothing more.

    I think the reason this line gets slammed for being overpriced is the same reason Xerjoff does - their compositions just aren't that good, and they're hiding behind the ol' "quality of materials" bit, which I find to be most often a lie with both By Kilian and Xerjoff. With only a few exceptions, most By Kilian and Xerjoff that I've tried have rather poor quality ingredients and a very weak structure that is supported heavily by synthetic musks.

  41. #41

    Default Re: Is the elaborate packaging backfiring on By Kilian?

    Quote Originally Posted by SculptureOfSoul View Post
    These are some of the most poorly blended juices I've smelled, especially those scent by the nose Sidonie Lanceusser. Pure Oud is the best of what I've tried but it's merely alright - nothing more.

    I think the reason this line gets slammed for being overpriced is the same reason Xerjoff does - their compositions just aren't that good, and they're hiding behind the ol' "quality of materials" bit, which I find to be most often a lie with both By Kilian and Xerjoff. With only a few exceptions, most By Kilian and Xerjoff that I've tried have rather poor quality ingredients and a very weak structure that is supported heavily by synthetic musks.
    Well, IMO Kilian and Amouage and neck-and-neck as far as quality... both materials and composition. I could argue all day about how well blended and composed some of Kilian's frags are, especially Back to Black and Cruel Intentions by Sidonie Lanceusser.

    Your opinion is just that, your own opinion and not objective fact, which seems to be what you're claiming. I mean, do you have any evidence Kilian is lying about the ingredients they use, which are listed on their website? Because if they're NOT lying, you are wrong about the use of cheap materials. And somehow... I really doubt the lists of ingredients they are posting are a complete fabrication and bear no resemblance to what's in the bottles. I may be a fan of Kilian's frags, but I'm not making any outrageous claims. You are, and IMO you should provide some reasoning or proof behind why you think this house in lying about it's ingredients. If you can do this, people can have a reasonable discussion about it, if not.. people are just going to assume you're full of it.

  42. #42

    Default Re: Is the elaborate packaging backfiring on By Kilian?

    I've elaborated on it before. For one thing, their juices are far too clear to be using the amount of naturals they suggest.

    I'd further elaborate but it's difficult if not impossible to articulate all of this. I've got about 200 bottles of natural oils/absolutes/concretes/C02 + SC02 extracts here that I work with, and there are certain qualities present in naturals and thus, in highly natural compositions, that I haven't found in the By Kilians I've tested - (exception: Pure Oud, which has a lot of natural guiac, for sure). I've not tried Back to Black, and that's a Calice Becker creation - which I assume from my testing of Pure Oud that her creations are more natural/nuanced than those by S. Lanceusser, so I can't comment on that, but Straight to Heaven and Cruel Intentions are both marred by a very clumsy, imo, usage of white musks.

    I'm not going to argue that Amouage is 'higher quality', I generally find that they are 'higher quality' than the few By Kilians I've tried, but they are far from natural! Some Amouage use nice dosages of naturals, and some are plagued by overt synthetics (most of the womens Amouages are inferior synthetic-heavy creations, imo).

    Very few niche houses are using good amounts of quality materials - and I'd say it often comes down to a scent by scent basis rather than house by house. Noir Epices, for example, has a lot of real geranium and real florals present, while many other Malles are overdosed on synthetics (iso e super reigns supreme in Bois d'Orage, Dans Tes Bras is Roucel working his synthetic magic/horror depending on your perspective, etc).

    Pluran and numerous other veterans who also have a lot of experience with aromachemicals/natural oils have said the same thing about many of the Kilians. It's not just limited to Kilians though - it's most niche. Kilian just seems to get slammed harder because of their extra high pricing and misleading perfume formulas posted (btw, look at the amount of white musks listed in those formulas. Often quite high. And many of the ingredients listed are "X accord" which implies it is mostly or even wholly synthetic, since they seem to like listing their naturals seperately).

  43. #43

    Default Re: Is the elaborate packaging backfiring on By Kilian?

    Quote Originally Posted by SculptureOfSoul View Post
    I've not tried Back to Black, and that's a Calice Becker creation - which I assume from my testing of Pure Oud that her creations are more natural/nuanced than those by S. Lanceusser, so I can't comment on that, but Straight to Heaven and Cruel Intentions are both marred by a very clumsy, imo, usage of white musks.
    It is definitely true that the two Sidonie frags make generous use of synthetics, but the ingredients are listed as accords on the Kilian website, which I take to mean fully synthetic, because they list the naturals separately. Animalics I'd just assume are synthetic of course. Straight to Heaven has 5 out of 9 ingredients that are accords or animalics. Also, I never claimed or suggested any of the Kilian frags are all natural, I claim they are high quality. However, most of them use a large amount of natural ingredients... I don't have any reason to doubt their claimed ingredients lists.

    Judging the whole line on Sidonie's 2 frags plus Pure Oud isn't a fair representation of the line. Many are fairly simple florals that feature many natural ingredients (Beyond Love, Love and Tears, Prelude to Love, Liasons Dangereuses)... these are the most natural of the line. Back to Black and A Taste of Heaven are examples of "well blended", and also have very restrained use of synthetics.

    Anyway, you should definitely try BtB, AToH, Beyond Love and Prelude to Love, and see if you still have the same opinions. They are very, very different in character from CI and STH and are the best of the line IMO... although I really like CI despite it's overt syntheticness.

    If you pm me your address I'll send you samples of the 4 I mentioned above.
    Last edited by Dorje123; 3rd April 2012 at 07:08 AM.

  44. #44

    Default Re: Is the elaborate packaging backfiring on By Kilian?

    Thanks Dorje. I really shouldn't have written off the line after only having sampled 3 of them - I know many could do the same w/ Amouage or well, any house, I'm sure. I am really interested in AtoH as I love absinthe/wormwood notes, especially when combined with lavender. In fact, my very first scent I tried making on my own was a combination of wormwood/lavender + evergreen notes and some other woods and spices, along with vanilla.

  45. #45
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    Default Re: Is the elaborate packaging backfiring on By Kilian?

    I don't wish to go into the fallacious natural = good, synthetic = bad argument. The key to good compositions is balance. Sometimes a perfumer may use more of certain ingredients to highlight certain aspects of the fragrance so I can't really comment if the overloading part is not in fact intentional. Sometimes we might have specific hyperosmia to certain notes/chemicals and might sense certain attributes as 'overwhelming'. I don't know. I guess if you don't like it, don't wear it. But I do know the sense of smell evolves with training and experience. Thanks for sharing your knowledge, SoS.

  46. #46

    Default Re: Is the elaborate packaging backfiring on By Kilian?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondflame View Post
    I don't wish to go into the fallacious natural = good, synthetic = bad argument. The key to good compositions is balance. Sometimes a perfumer may use more of certain ingredients to highlight certain aspects of the fragrance so I can't really comment if the overloading part is not in fact intentional. Sometimes we might have specific hyperosmia to certain notes/chemicals and might sense certain attributes as 'overwhelming'. I don't know. I guess if you don't like it, don't wear it. But I do know the sense of smell evolves with training and experience. Thanks for sharing your knowledge, SoS.
    I can definitely understand the criticism based on CI and STH, they both use a lot of obviously synthetic accords and do have a different character vs. the Calice Becker frags. Their use of synthetics is far heavier than the rest of the Kilian line and don't fit into the image Kilian is trying to project as using mostly natural ingredients as much.

  47. #47

    Default Re: Is the elaborate packaging backfiring on By Kilian?

    When I commented on the use of good quality ingredients, I will clarify I was only looking up the naturals. I was looking up the types of ingredients he used and where they came from as part of my perfumer learning curve. In the case of each natural where specified, I found the ones I was researching were considered well of each type. It was only an assumption the chemical part would follow this trend.

  48. #48

    Default Re: Is the elaborate packaging backfiring on By Kilian?

    Quote Originally Posted by SculptureOfSoul View Post
    I've elaborated on it before. For one thing, their juices are far too clear to be using the amount of naturals they suggest.

    I'd further elaborate but it's difficult if not impossible to articulate all of this. I've got about 200 bottles of natural oils/absolutes/concretes/C02 + SC02 extracts here that I work with, and there are certain qualities present in naturals and thus, in highly natural compositions, that I haven't found in the By Kilians I've tested - (exception: Pure Oud, which has a lot of natural guiac, for sure). I've not tried Back to Black, and that's a Calice Becker creation - which I assume from my testing of Pure Oud that her creations are more natural/nuanced than those by S. Lanceusser, so I can't comment on that, but Straight to Heaven and Cruel Intentions are both marred by a very clumsy, imo, usage of white musks.

    I'm not going to argue that Amouage is 'higher quality', I generally find that they are 'higher quality' than the few By Kilians I've tried, but they are far from natural! Some Amouage use nice dosages of naturals, and some are plagued by overt synthetics (most of the womens Amouages are inferior synthetic-heavy creations, imo).

    Very few niche houses are using good amounts of quality materials - and I'd say it often comes down to a scent by scent basis rather than house by house. Noir Epices, for example, has a lot of real geranium and real florals present, while many other Malles are overdosed on synthetics (iso e super reigns supreme in Bois d'Orage, Dans Tes Bras is Roucel working his synthetic magic/horror depending on your perspective, etc).

    Pluran and numerous other veterans who also have a lot of experience with aromachemicals/natural oils have said the same thing about many of the Kilians. It's not just limited to Kilians though - it's most niche. Kilian just seems to get slammed harder because of their extra high pricing and misleading perfume formulas posted (btw, look at the amount of white musks listed in those formulas. Often quite high. And many of the ingredients listed are "X accord" which implies it is mostly or even wholly synthetic, since they seem to like listing their naturals seperately).
    I emphatically agree. There seems to be this common misconception that if a fragrance is priced high, that means it's made of quality ingredients. Amouage (Lyric, Epic & Jubilation) and Kilian both, to me, do not smell high quality at all. The prices definitely appear high quality and the packaging and web/ad copy is no doubt about as polished and stylized as possible but when it comes to brass tacks both these houses are obviously using lots of aromachemicals.

    With that said, I appreciate that Kilian offers four 7.5oz travel refills for a sum of $75 (I believe). I wear Back to Black often, but Lutens, Tauer, HdP and Parfumerie Generale all smell at least 2-3 times more quality than any Kilian or Amouage I've come across. In perfume, luxury is illusion and nothing more. The prices have nothing to do with the quality of juice and everything to do with branding/image.

  49. #49
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    Default Re: Is the elaborate packaging backfiring on By Kilian?

    The price that comes with the packaging has already back-fired on me. But then, By Killian does not need me as a customer, to remain in business. He has plenty of customers who love the idea of elaborate packaging with a high class scent.

    Regular chums like myself will refer to The Perfumed Court. Here is the link, as an example:

    http://theperfumedcourt.com/Products...EANDTEARS.aspx

    Good enough - and my bank account looks elaborate; and not the bottle on display as a vanity item.
    There are no answers, only choices. (Stanislav Lem)

  50. #50

    Default Re: Is the elaborate packaging backfiring on By Kilian?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nukapai View Post
    To be honest, I think arguing whether or not perfume is 'worth the money' is a moot argument in a way.

    1. Do you like the smell?
    2. Do you LOVE the smell?
    3. How much is that worth to you?
    4. Do you feel ripped off?

    Those are the important questions to ask when you buy perfume. Whether to use synthetics, naturals, cheap blends, expensive blends, cheap packaging, ludicrous packaging - the perfume is ultimately a combination of artistic, stylistic and business decisions from the point of view of those producing it.
    Nukapai, I admire your well thought out responses. You really helped me reach a clearer understanding on that interminable thread I started elsewhere

    When I purchase a piece of art the last thing I do is factor in the cost of paint or clay to estimate it's worth. Perfumes are slightly different in this regard since cost associated with ingredients can be indicative of overall quality. But what I'm really paying for is the artist's creativity manipulating those materials, their years of work and study developing a unique artistic vision and how their work speaks to me. Being a mere financial mortal my tastes and desires have limits but when it comes to purchasing perfume the principle remains the same. At that point, I hope I can discern those things which are overpriced and without merit so I don't end up owning an expensive status symbol. Hmm, the pairing of Bond #9 and Andy Warhol may be a very apt example of this...
    Last edited by Symphonies; 4th April 2012 at 04:29 AM.

  51. #51
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    Default Re: Is the elaborate packaging backfiring on By Kilian?

    I find it simply astonishing that:
    - The L'oeuvre Noire 50ml bottle is €175, and only €75 for the 50ml refill.
    - The Arabian Nights 50ml bottle is €295, and only €125 for the 50ml refill.

    Don't get me wrong, I think that the presentation is stunning, but to pay more for the bottle than the fragrance is a ludicrous notion.

  52. #52
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    Default Re: Is the elaborate packaging backfiring on By Kilian?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondflame View Post
    Just a little rant here. I'm getting pretty tired of hearing 'pricey' comments about this line. And without evidence proving otherwise I find it quite ridiculous, absurd even, to make assumptions and blame the price on the rather elaborate packaging.

    Seriously do we actually know By Kilian's cost structure and breakdown by components? Or do you sleep easier with a more drab-looking Creed bottle or Lutens bell jar that just cost you $200-$400+, secure in the belief (LOL) that most of the $ actually went towards producing the juice? If that's not naivete, I don't know what is.

    Obviously By Kilian is targeted at select groups of consumers who appreciate having their favorite perfumes in presentable packages. Those who baulk at paying retail for a nicely packaged bottle can always get the travel refills. So I don't see why 'pricey' must be bandied about whenever By Kilian is discussed. To think many vintage perfumes used to come in Baccarat crystal bottles... I don't hear as many complaints about inflated prices there.

    OK. There you go. I feel so much better already...
    When you study marketing, you learn that choosing a price point is a marketing decision. It does not necessarily have anything to do with production costs or packaging. Consumers associate higher price with status and higher quality and a luxury brand will typically sell better at a higher price point than a lower one. All of this is carefully calibrated by the marketing departments of the large corporations that manage most fashion products these days.

    It used to be said that Cadillacs cost GM only a $100 more to make than Chevys. A contemporary classic example is the Apple computer vs. the generic PC. The generic PC makers are essentially battling for the lowest price point slot and their mark-up is minimal to keep them competitive in the stores. Apple, however, aims at a cool, sophisticated up-market base. Its products seem much better made and packaged than their competitors but their mark-ups are gigantic, the highest of the industry. If Apple priced their computers at the same mark-up as PCs, they would be about 30% cheaper and probably would actually have a harder time competing in the market place because they would seem less special. This is one reason why Apple is the world's most valuable company.

    I've run focus groups where we tested price points. Basically, you sit around and ask "What do you think about this price for this product? Would you buy it? Would you think it was too expensive? At what level does it look luxurious and and what point would you think it was too cheap?"

    Fragrance makers have to trade trade on the vague associations of name and luxury so I doubt very much that the prices really closely track cost structure or packaging, especially for the brands that have high status. The prices are chosen to target specific markets and to work with specific marketing strategies. Some years after a launch, for example, you will often see a fragrance drop in price. This is because the brand owner is no longer promoting the fragrance as a luxury brand and is producing it to supply a built-in market of devotees. Something similar is probably behind those cheaper "refill" and "travel" bottles.
    Last edited by BurgundyMarsh; 25th May 2012 at 04:45 PM.

  53. #53

    Default Re: Is the elaborate packaging backfiring on By Kilian?

    Quote Originally Posted by tyler-durden View Post
    I find it simply astonishing that:
    - The L'oeuvre Noire 50ml bottle is €175, and only €75 for the 50ml refill.
    - The Arabian Nights 50ml bottle is €295, and only €125 for the 50ml refill.

    Don't get me wrong, I think that the presentation is stunning, but to pay more for the bottle than the fragrance is a ludicrous notion.
    Dont let it bother you. You're not their targeted market. Hence your opinion. Here it sells like hot cakes, so to speak.

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  54. #54
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    Default Re: Is the elaborate packaging backfiring on By Kilian?

    I understand the popularity of the fragrances! But you can effectively buy two refills for the price of a bottle!

    Surely nobody would ever buy more one of the same bottle?!

  55. #55

    Default Re: Is the elaborate packaging backfiring on By Kilian?

    Quote Originally Posted by tyler-durden View Post
    but to pay more for the bottle than the fragrance is a ludicrous notion.
    I hate to break it to you, but with the vast majority of mainstream (and even some niche) perfumes, you usually are paying more for the bottle than what's inside.

    That isn't a situation isolated to perfumes. Mass-market shower gels and face creams... you name it; the packaging usually costs more than the contents.

    Now in the case of a luxury/niche house, it's very likely that the price points have been designed to appeal to status-shoppers. So the more expensive, the better. Go to Roja Dove's perfumery on the fifth floor of Harrods and you'll see some of the pinnacles of this concept - The Party in Manhattan available with a real diamond on the cap, etc, etc. It's the rich people's way of showing "I can throw this much money away" and has nothing to do with sensible pricing.

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