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  1. #1

    Default Missing Link: Did Pierre Bourdon create Creed's Orange Spice and copy it with Kouros?

    According to Luca Turin, and other sources, Pierre Bourdon reworked his own 1985 creation, Green Irish Tweed into Cool Water in 1988.
    So I ask, was Creed's Orange Spice also created by Mr. Bourdon at some undisclosed year, and then reworked by him into Kouros in 1981?
    Creed claims that Orange Spice was created in 1950, but one of Basenotes esteemed Creed afficiandos, hirch_duckfinder just stated in another Creed thread that, "In fact, an historian and several other knowledgable fragrance enthusiasts have not seen any evidence whatsoever that they made fragrances before the 70's. Luca Turin made his opinion of their claimed history clear in his and Sachez's "Perfumes The Guide" and has not been sued."
    Orange Spice and Kouros are just too close to be accidentally/coincidentally related, IMHO. I know it has been rumored that Mr. St. Laurent admired Orange Spice before Kouros was created, but does anyone have a bottle from the 1950s that would disprove my theory as Bourdon only began working professionally in the mid-70s.
    Thanks for indulging me and any information leading to an answer to this question.
    This has been nagging me since I smelled Orange Spice a few years ago.
    Last edited by Kevin Guyer; 18th February 2010 at 12:02 AM.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Missing Link: Did Pierre Bourdon create Creed's Orange Spice and copy it with Kouros?

    Ruggles, if you could provide the link to the other thread you quote from, that would be of interest.
    Currently wearing: Augusto by Mazzolari

  3. #3

    Default Re: Missing Link: Did Pierre Bourdon create Creed's Orange Spice and copy it with Kouros?

    Quote Originally Posted by scentsitivity View Post
    Ruggles, if you could provide the link to the other thread you quote from, that would be of interest.
    http://www.basenotes.net/threads/246...nated-by-Creed Reply #51

  4. #4

    Default Re: Missing Link: Did Pierre Bourdon create Creed's Orange Spice and copy it with Kouros?

    I'll buy the story off the strength of Pierre Bourdon's level of taste and execution, in pairing with the vacuum of pre-1980 CREED info.
    Currently wearing: Royal Mayfair by Creed

  5. #5

    Default Re: Missing Link: Did Pierre Bourdon create Creed's Orange Spice and copy it with Kouros?

    Well we all wonder what is truth and what is fiction about Creed's history. How much is marketing creative story telling and how much is actually fact. My first bottle of Orange Spice was purchased in the mid 1990's so I am little help.

    Somebody should ask Mr. Bourdon himself! Does anyone here know him personally? I understand he has retired. He should put together a book that explains the evolution of the fragrances we all know and love from his past years of experience. His early history and close friendship Edmond Routnitska and his early work for Roure Bertrand would turn up very interesting foundational developments of the growing perfume industry in the 1970's.

    But the real Creed history is a perplexing issue. Who knows what is real there.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Missing Link: Did Pierre Bourdon create Creed's Orange Spice and copy it with Kouros?

    This has the potential of being a fascinating thread, but unfortunately no one seems to really know what Creed's history really is, other than the Creed family itself, and I dont' have much faith in them revealing the truth. I think the fact that information about Creed pre-1980s seems practically nonexistent speaks volumes.

    Although I have yet to smell Orange Spice, I am an ardent Kouros fan, and like Ruggles, I'd love to know the truth about the origins of these two scents.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Missing Link: Did Pierre Bourdon create Creed's Orange Spice and copy it with Kouros?

    It was a funny shock to try Orange Spice. I shot it onto a sample card and recoiled laughing. Right out of the bottle- it shares a lot with Kouros, that's for sure. I haven't given it a longer test wear, so don't know what kind of dry down it has.

    Any lover of Kouros has to give it a shot, just for the big grin when you first spray it out. What do I know, but the 1950 date seems a stretch. It may just be me, but I have a tough time imagining my dad's generation using something that intense in the 1950s.

    As for Creed's mysterious history, the optimist in me tends to think they may have made small batches throughout the years, but probably didn't burst out as a main stream perfumer with any real retail presence until the 70s. It's certainly not impossible, but some of their older scents (Orange Spice excepted) just seem like they're from an earlier time. RSL, REL, TABAROME, AMBRE CANELLE.

    You'd think we'd have one really old cranky Basenoter who would remember them from the 50s or 60s. OR, someone who remembers their dad always wore Epicea, Vetiver or Cuir de Russie.
    Last edited by StylinLA; 18th February 2010 at 07:04 PM.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Missing Link: Did Pierre Bourdon create Creed's Orange Spice and copy it with Kouros?

    According to a Basenoter (I forget her nick), Fleurs de Bulgarie has been listed in Empress Eugenie's official bio as a commissioned scent.

    To think that no Creed scents existed before the 1970s is too unbelievable...maybe they didn't exist for commercial consumption. Also, the oldies have probably been reformulated.

    BTW, does the fact that you made an effort to create this thread indicate that you like Orange Spice ?
    -

  9. #9

    Default Re: Missing Link: Did Pierre Bourdon create Creed's Orange Spice and copy it with Kouros?

    Quote Originally Posted by zztopp View Post
    According to a Basenoter (I forget her nick), Fleurs de Bulgarie has been listed in Empress Eugenie's official bio as a commissioned scent. BTW, does the fact that you made an effort to create this thread indicate that you like Orange Spice ?
    Interesting tidbit, is this official Empress Eugenie bio something that's easily found? And, yes, I do like OS and actually find it much more wearable than Kouros.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Missing Link: Did Pierre Bourdon create Creed's Orange Spice and copy it with Kouros?

    Quote Originally Posted by zztopp View Post
    To think that no Creed scents existed before the 1970s is too unbelievable...maybe they didn't exist for commercial consumption. Also, the oldies have probably been reformulated.
    I totally agree. I'm sure they've dabbled in scent for years and years whether or not it was commonly and easily available.

    I think they would have to reformulate. Those early perfumes had to combat a LOT of stench. I can just imagine how potent some of that stuff was.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Missing Link: Did Pierre Bourdon create Creed's Orange Spice and copy it with Kouros?

    Quote Originally Posted by zztopp View Post
    To think that no Creed scents existed before the 1970s is too unbelievable...maybe they didn't exist for commercial consumption. Also, the oldies have probably been reformulated.
    Weren't there pictures of Creed bottles from the early 20th that were just listed like "Eau de Cologne" or something like that? They were then relabeled into current formulations. I think you're right in that most of Creed's scents were just in house bespoke blends that weren't for public sale.
    Currently wearing: Baie de Genièvre by Creed

  12. #12

    Default Re: Missing Link: Did Pierre Bourdon create Creed's Orange Spice and copy it with Kouros?

    Does anyone here know which year the Paris Creed store in the 8th opened? The decor makes it look like it's been there since the 70s. This certainly must be easy to ascertain. I'm going to give it a web search.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Missing Link: Did Pierre Bourdon create Creed's Orange Spice and copy it with Kouros?

    Orange Spice = Kouros? Not a chance. I smell very little similarity between the two. Orange Spice has an old-school, "barbershoppy" feel to it. Kouros smells much more modern chemical to me.

    And the "no Creed before 1970" idea. . . umm. . . have to say, sounds like something out of the "fake moonwalk" conspiracy theory handbook.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Missing Link: Did Pierre Bourdon create Creed's Orange Spice and copy it with Kouros?

    Quote Originally Posted by mrcologneguy View Post
    Orange Spice = Kouros? Not a chance. I smell very little similarity between the two. Orange Spice has an old-school, "barbershoppy" feel to it. Kouros smells much more modern chemical to me.
    I find Orange Spice's relationship to Kouros akin to that of GIT and Cool Water: one is done with an expensive mix of ingredients and the other is done with much cheaper materials. I think they're beyond close to each other; like big brother, little brother close.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Missing Link: Did Pierre Bourdon create Creed's Orange Spice and copy it with Kouros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruggles View Post
    I find Orange Spice's relationship to Kouros akin to that of GIT and Cool Water: one is done with an expensive mix of ingredients and the other is done with much cheaper materials. I think they're beyond close to each other; like big brother, little brother close.

    I agree. One also has to admit as evidence the similarity between Creed's Original Santal and Montblanc's Individuel--also created by one Pierre Bourdon...

  16. #16

    Default Re: Missing Link: Did Pierre Bourdon create Creed's Orange Spice and copy it with Kouros?

    I've been intrigued by this question since Turin established the GIT-Cool Water link. I would not be surprised. As to Creed history, we've been over this so many times
    Other niche brands have shown that you can create a line of dozens of perfumes out of nowhere in very short time. So it is not impossible that Creed truly only started in the late 60s. On the other hand the style of some fragrances is clearly old-fashioned, though I do not buy most of the dates floating around - e.g. Vintage Tabarome is mid 20s earliest (post-tabac blond and habanita). It is possible that Creed produced (or had made for them) generics following the trends of the day, but this would have been a negligible side of their tailoring business. I simply do not believe that a tailor catering to the courts of Europe, travelling from court to court with his entourage to take measure of kings & queens had time to waste on concocting perfumes in the back room. David G. Williams in Perfumes of Yesterday draws a compelling picture of Victorian perfumery as widely based on the coyping or slight modification of standard prescriptions from handbooks by pharmacists etc. with professionalization driven by ionly a handful of pioneers like Guerlain and Rimmel. Whatever Creed may have been selling at the time has little to do with their current offerings, I believe. I'm also sure that Bourdon is not the only pro that master perfumer Olivier Creed has made use of. I would not be surprised if numerous other better-known noses were behind Creed perfumes.
    My Wardrobe
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  17. #17

    Default Re: Missing Link: Did Pierre Bourdon create Creed's Orange Spice and copy it with Kouros?

    the_good_life and Indie_Guy, thanks for you votes of confidence on the Boudron/Orange Spice connection. The plot always thickens with Creed inquiries, but never congeals. I tried to Google the opening date of the Paris Creed boutique without any luck. Any ideas? Thanks again for becoming part of this search for the beginning of Creed's perfumery origins.

  18. #18

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    Default Re: Missing Link: Did Pierre Bourdon create Creed's Orange Spice and copy it with Kouros?

    Quote Originally Posted by the_good_life View Post
    I would not be surprised if numerous other better-known noses were behind Creed perfumes.
    I would be very surprised if this was not the case ! Michael Edwards might know more, or one of the giants like Givaudan, Symrise or Firmenich. But to my knowledge it's been in the contract of perfumers / perfume labs never to release the name of the noses behind orders executed.

    That has changed a little after one or the other 'outsider' had started to introduce a few important perfumers to the public (guess who). But to this day Creed seem to claim doing everything in-house, and their magical talent seems to be heritable, a god-given like imperial crowns.
    Last edited by narcus; 18th February 2010 at 03:34 PM.
    'Il mondo dei profumi è un universo senza limiti: una fraganza puo rievocare sensazioni, luoghi, persone o ancora condurre in uno spazio di nuove dimensioni emozionali' L. V.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Missing Link: Did Pierre Bourdon create Creed's Orange Spice and copy it with Kouros?

    Quote Originally Posted by narcus View Post
    I would be very surprised if this was not the case ! Michael Edwards might know more, or one of the giants like Givaudan, Symrise or Firmenich. But to my knowledge it's been in the contract of perfumers / perfume labs never to release the name of the noses behind orders executed.

    That has changed a little after one or the other 'outsider' had started to introduce a few important perfumers to the public (guess who). But to this day Creed seem to claim doing everything in-house, and their magical talent seems to be heritable, a god-given like imperial crowns.
    That would explain why most Creed fragrances are so awesome. Don't you agree Narcus? (That most Creed fragrances are awesome) ?
    -

  20. #20

    Default Re: Missing Link: Did Pierre Bourdon create Creed's Orange Spice and copy it with Kouros?

    Quote Originally Posted by zztopp View Post
    That would explain why most Creed fragrances are so awesome. Don't you agree Narcus? (That most Creed fragrances are awesome) ?
    I don't know what narcus is going to say, but in my book the last awesome Creed was Bois du Portugal (1987). Royal Delight (1993) and Neroli Sauvage (1994) are excellent, if not quite awesome. I haven't been blown away since. Even great noses produce a lot of mediocrities.
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  21. #21
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    Default Re: Missing Link: Did Pierre Bourdon create Creed's Orange Spice and copy it with Kouros?

    Quote Originally Posted by the_good_life View Post
    I don't know what narcus is going to say, but in my book the last awesome Creed was Bois du Portugal (1987). Royal Delight (1993) and Neroli Sauvage (1994) are excellent, if not quite awesome. I haven't been blown away since. Even great noses produce a lot of mediocrities.
    I would easily add Feuille Verte (2006) to the list. Perhaps your tastes have changed and you are now looking for some more woody/ambery/oriental frags.
    -

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Missing Link: Did Pierre Bourdon create Creed's Orange Spice and copy it with Kouros?

    Quote Originally Posted by zztopp View Post
    I would easily add Feuille Verte (2006) to the list.
    + 1
    Currently wearing: Augusto by Mazzolari

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Missing Link: Did Pierre Bourdon create Creed's Orange Spice and copy it with Kouros?

    I doubt that Creed started making fragrances as late as the 70s. Perhaps for broader public consumption, yes.

    A lot of these wouldn't make sense to have been created in the 70s and beyond. They feel as if they come from an earlier period.
    Currently wearing: Augusto by Mazzolari

  24. #24

    Default Re: Missing Link: Did Pierre Bourdon create Creed's Orange Spice and copy it with Kouros?

    Until Creed gives a real release date for Orange Spice there is no way to know. Indeed Kouros could have been released first, unless there is someone here that can personally vouch for a bottle of Orange Spice before 1981.
    "When he shook hands with me my nostrils were assailed by all the perfumes of Arabia."
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  25. #25

    Default Re: Missing Link: Did Pierre Bourdon create Creed's Orange Spice and copy it with Kouros?

    Quote Originally Posted by zztopp View Post
    I would easily add Feuille Verte (2006) to the list. Perhaps your tastes have changed and you are now looking for some more woody/ambery/oriental frags.
    I can't judge what I'm not meant to wear. It was never sold in Europe, as you surely know. I tried some from a mini-vial, but it wasn't enough for a full evaluation. Anyway, a perfume house pursuing a policy of keeping the really good stuff super-limited and ultra-expensive can kiss my behind, whether it's Creed, Guerlain or whoever else. As to my taste, it is simple, like Oscar Wilde's.
    Last edited by the_good_life; 18th February 2010 at 06:29 PM.
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  26. #26

    Default Re: Missing Link: Did Pierre Bourdon create Creed's Orange Spice and copy it with Kouros?

    Allow me to insert another possibility, that Bourdon's relationship with Oliver was in part founded by Bourdon's admiration for Orange Spice.....if indeed Orange Spice is the 1950's technicolor marvel we find it to be. I would love to know more of Pierre Bourdon's initial contact and early dealings with Olivier Creed.
    Currently wearing: Royal Mayfair by Creed

  27. #27
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    Default Re: Missing Link: Did Pierre Bourdon create Creed's Orange Spice and copy it with Kouros?

    Quote Originally Posted by mrcologneguy View Post
    I smell very little similarity between the two.
    As do I.

  28. #28

    Default Re: Missing Link: Did Pierre Bourdon create Creed's Orange Spice and copy it with Kouros?

    There are several reference books on perfume bottles as collectibles (your local library might have one or two). Guess how many Creed bottles you will find in them?

  29. #29
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    Default Re: Missing Link: Did Pierre Bourdon create Creed's Orange Spice and copy it with Kouros?

    I am of the opinion Creed may be much better at advertising than most realize. Possible benefits over controversy to their claims as to when they actually introduced or began their fragrance lines could be well thought out by the Creed Ad department. It might just be in their best financial interests to not say a word clarifying any controversial statements they have made both in advertising and in media releases about their fragrances.

    Controversy definitely sells and some savvy firms know this is a proven way to increase sales. Controversy produces both negative and positive interest and those states of mind in the public appear to work hand in hand to increase revenues.

    Consider that Creed is almost always in the headlines in a number of Basenotes threads and enjoying the benefits of continual controversy. My bet is Creed has one or more of their employees reading and evaluating every post about Creed here and on other fragrance sites as to the monetary effectiveness of their advertising and published history.


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    Last edited by kbe; 30th March 2011 at 11:58 PM.
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  30. #30

    Default Re: Missing Link: Did Pierre Bourdon create Creed's Orange Spice and copy it with Kouros?

    The thing I find so funny is that if they did create a frag for this or that dignitary, then what happened? From the history, or lack thereof, it would seem that they were terrible frags that nobody wanted, and perhaps the dignitary was nice enough to just have a servant put it in the storage cellar, never to see the light of day again. However, some of them would have seen the light of day eventually. On the other hand, if the frags were so great, why wouldn't they want to make some money on that part of the business, like other companies did? It does not pass the smell test, pardon the pun !

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