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  1. #1

    Default blending a simple synthetic rose like note

    hello.

    i have made a rose like note with a few aroma chemicals and one natural. i haven't got some very important materials like nerol, beta damascenone, rose oxide, beta ionone, and even worse no natural rose (nor geranium) oil.

    i have used some rose alcohols and ended up with a very sharp, almost harsh, way too fresh and thin note. not very good! then i tried again, this time changing the amounts and adding thing to make it softer, deeper an fuller. one ingredient that turned out useful here was labdanum. here's my current formula (in drops):

    phenyl ethyl alcohol 25% 10
    iso e super 20% 10
    geraniol 10% 4
    iso eugenol 5% 2
    citronellal 20% 10
    labdanum 3% 10
    linalool 10% 3
    cinnem. alc 12,5% 1
    musk ketone 5% 4

    it is not unsatisfying for a second experiment by an absolute beginner, it does have a smell related to rose.
    however, i still want it to be more velvety rose petal soft, and it could be richer too. what are your suggestions?
    i will receive some geranium oil soon, i guess the natural richness of this might help, though i suspect that the geranium is less soft/sweet/deep than a real rose.
    at this point, i could use some suggestions/directions from more experienced people.

    ps. i also will get some nerol real soon. plus, i am wondering what farnesol contributes to rose.
    Last edited by gido; 1st March 2010 at 06:57 PM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: blending a simple synthetic rose like note

    Here are a couple rose base formulas:

    Red rose base

    Geraniol 250
    alpha-iso-methyl ionone (iraldeine gamma) 150
    Citronellol 150
    Benzyl acetate 50
    CYCLOSIA base (Firmenich) 50
    Bulgarian rose oil 10% 50
    Rose Crystals 50
    Lilial 40
    Phenylethyl pivalate (pivarose/centifolyl) 40
    Phenylethyl alcohol 30
    Exaltolide 30
    Phenoxyethyl isobutyrate 30
    Citronella oil of Java 10% 20
    Geranium oil of Africa 20
    Phenylacetic aldehyde 10% 10
    beta Damascenone 10% 10

    Total 980

    Rose accord
    soft petal-like

    ALDEHYDE C11 UNDECYLENIC 10.0% 10
    ALDEHYDE C12 LAURIC 10.0% 20
    AMYL PHENYLACETATE 50
    CITRONELLOL 480
    EUGENOL 20
    GERANIOL 50
    LINALOL 120
    NEROL 10
    PHENYLETHYL ALCOHOL 200
    ROSE OXIDE 10
    DAMAROSE ALPHA (Fir) 10.0% 30

    1000

    Copied from Firmenich

    I'd probably stay away from the ISO E Super until you have a good solid rose base. It might be the source of harshness you mentioned, your formula consists of a high percentage of it.

  3. #3

    Default Re: blending a simple synthetic rose like note

    Well for a simple rose accord you don't need damascenone or natural rose extracts, allthough they will improve the fragrance.

    I ususaly start with the rose alcohols geraniol, citronellol (not citronellal, that is something different) and phenyl ethyl alcohol. Less important for me is nerol. This is the base frame of the rose accord. Now you can add modifiers like:
    - Neryl acetate and geranyl acetate to add fruitiness
    - EO cloves leaf to add a spicy note. Eugenol and iso eugenol ar possible too, but the essential oils make the fragrance more natural and smooth.
    - Ionone alpha (i would use this instead of beta) and linalool to make it more floral
    - Aldehydes to make it fresher and give a lift. I prefer Aldehyde C9, but other good choises in this case are C8, C10, C11 enic and C12 Lauric
    - Trepanol / Rosalva is also a good aldehyde like note that has mainly the fatty/waxy aspect of an aldehyde

    As naturaliser you can add
    - Geranium oils, the Chinese contain more citronellol and are les minty, I prefer these
    - Palmarosa oil
    - Bergamot oil (only in small amounts, otherwise it will tun into a perfume instead of an accord)
    - A hint of lemongrass oil or litsea cubeb oil can add a little freshness, but use only a little
    - More expensive: rose EO, rose absolute

    Then a simple accord:

    Citronellol 400
    Geraniol 250 (you can replace about 20% of it by palmarosa oil)
    Phenyl ethyl alcohol 150
    Geranium China 50
    Alpha Ionone 30
    Nerol 30
    Neryl acetate 30
    Linalool 20
    EO Bergamot FCF 10
    Oil of cloves leaf 15
    Trepanol 10
    Aldehyde C9 3
    EO Litsea Cubeb 2

  4. #4

    Default Re: blending a simple synthetic rose like note

    A lot of good advice up there. I just wanted to mention that Guaiacwood can also be used to emphasize the woodier aspects of rose. I don't know what proportion one would use it in with regards to synthetics though as I only work with natural materials.
    Last edited by SculptureOfSoul; 2nd March 2010 at 06:16 AM.
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  5. #5

    Default Re: blending a simple synthetic rose like note

    I'd ditch the musk ketone--it's not really something you want to use nowadays. Replace it with something like Velvione.

  6. #6

    Default Re: blending a simple synthetic rose like note

    Guaiac wood oil or guaiyl acetate can indeed be a good addition, it has some peppery, spicyelements. I would not use over 5%, probably even less.

    Musk ketone is one of the four musks I use most (others are Exaltolide, Galaxolide and ethylene brassylate). The powdery effect you get with musk ketone is hard to match with other musks, maybe with exception of other nitro musks, but musk ketone is the least problematic of the nitro musks. Velvione is also a great chem, but simply not the same.

  7. #7

    Default Re: blending a simple synthetic rose like note

    Silly idea of mine: Why bother with just resembling naturals? Etat Libre D'Orange made Jasmin Et Cigarette. It's said they made a jasmine without indoles. It's true, and makes the jasmine cheap smelling. Well.
    What about composing a pure synthetic rose right to Your pleasing, being as close to 'natural' as can be. What could happen, if You then pull out the specific rose-aromas? First of all damascones and geraniol. Would an uninformed person identify the rest as the skeleton of rose? Could the lacking of being 'rose' eventually being cured by some other typical aroma? Think of a strong jasmine in that the indoles are replaced by birch tar ...

  8. #8

    Default Re: blending a simple synthetic rose like note

    thanks everybody! your input is appreciated.

    janmeut, i meant citronellol, not citronellal. and again, your answer is very useful to me, and i hope to others as well.

    I ususaly start with the rose alcohols geraniol, citronellol (not citronellal, that is something different) and phenyl ethyl alcohol. Less important for me is nerol. This is the base frame of the rose accord.
    that is how i started. however, with just these three, the results were way too (synthetic) sharp. also more geranium than rose.

    i don't have the esters you suggest for a fruity accent. is there anything else?
    currently i don't have much fruity molecules, in fact i really miss them. amyl acetate is on my list for the next order.

    i love the iso eugenol. i might order some cloves eo next time.

    the alpha ionone i tried, but in my formula i found it too strong in a rather small dose. same for the aldehyde, but i do think that waxy note would be good in a rose.

    i never really thought of bergamot, since the rose alcohols are already rather citrus-like. i will try this to see if it softens the note and makes the feel more natural.

    what did you think about the other less conventional ingredients that i have put into the mix? several where just in attempt to soften and silken, make it more floral, and deep/rich. do you think a rose note with a large amount of labdanum could work in a perfume? i am afraid it would fall apart when mixed with other things in great amounts.

    i would love to hear your opinion on these matters.

    joxer96 thanks for the formula's. i think the iso e super did the opposite of making things harsher. i am under the impression the blend smoothened from this, it seems to work like a floraliser, plus it added a soft diffusive peppery-woody like note that fits well. maybe i should try to leave it out and see what happens.

    indie_guy but.. but.. i LOVE the musk ketone! and you can still put 1.4% of it in a perfume. a few drops softened the note in a really beautiful way, without the musk becoming too apparent on its own. (only after a day on a blotter i could really detect it as a note on its own, which is not a problem to me, at this stage.. this is a learning process)

    merry.waters well, i am trying to make a rose just to get a grip on how it's build. if i end up with a base that is shockingly beautiful but ultimately not a rose, i wouldn't complain. i don't think i can beat nature at it's own game, or even come close, after all. i liked your idea, but i think i need to understand the rules before i can break them (in a interesting way). but you should go ahead and try.
    Last edited by gido; 2nd March 2010 at 07:08 PM.

  9. #9

    Default Re: blending a simple synthetic rose like note

    Neryl acetate and geranyl acetate are the most common. Being creative by using only a minimum of ingredients is a great way to learn. You could add other fruity notes like fruity esters. Davana oil, Aldehyde C14 and Tagetes oil will work too.

    Geranium and rose have of course a lot in common, but in case you think it is too geranium just change the balance of the rose alcohols to phenyl ethyl alcohol, this is only a minor constituent of geranium oils, but rose absolute usualy contains about 50% of it. More nerol will make it more fruity.

    Iso eugenol is indeed very sophisticated and smooth, but also a well known strong allergen, stronger than for instance eugenol.

    Ionones are strong indeed, but they usualy fit well into the formula. Aldehydes are easy overdosed, you could make 10% solutions and use these. A solution will also stabilise them, otherwise they tend to oxidise and polymerise in a relative short time.

    Bergamot makes the fragrance fresher and more natural.

    With less conventional you mean the ambers: Iso E Super, labdanum and cinnamyl alcohol? They make it a rosy amber, or ambery rose. So instead of an only rose accord you stretched it, no problem with that. Labdanum and other ambers work great with rose (like almost any fragrance material ).

    The good think of making your own perfumes is that you even can add 10% musk ketone or more, but of course it is smart to know what the EU law and IFRA say and keep this in mind.

  10. #10

    Default Re: blending a simple synthetic rose like note

    Quote Originally Posted by gido View Post
    merry.waters well, i am trying to make a rose just to get a grip on how it's build. ... i don't think i can beat nature at it's own game, or even come close, after all.
    Do You think 'rose' is beautyfull? Nature hasn't created the roses smell to please You. I'm pretty sure the human olfactory system would appriciate some other smells as well as rose. As an indication take the contemporary so called gourmand fragrances.
    My silly idea of replacing the jamines indoles with tar might have been realized with Morabito Or Black. It is not about breaking rules, but about creation.

    Have Fun

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