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  1. #31

    Default Re: What Fate Awaits the House of Guerlain?

    Simple. Fewer releases. Cut out the stupid practice of releasing some perfumes at an unbelievably exhorbitant prices and instead sell high quality fragrances at a mid-high price points in sensible sized bottles. Drop profit on the individual unit so as to gain higher overall profits by increasing sales volume.

    Yeah right.

    In the current state of global economic organisation things can only get worse.
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  2. #32

    Default Re: What Fate Awaits the House of Guerlain?

    Quote Originally Posted by hirch_duckfinder View Post
    Simple. Fewer releases. Cut out the stupid practice of releasing some perfumes at an unbelievably exhorbitant prices and instead sell high quality fragrances at a mid-high price points in sensible sized bottles. Drop profit on the individual unit so as to gain higher overall profits by increasing sales volume.

    Yeah right.

    In the current state of global economic organisation things can only get worse.
    Betrand Arnult will point at creeds and say "if they can, so can we!"

    and thus, Guerlain, Dior and Givenchy now have Niche exclusif stuff priced at a kidney or a heart valve or two.

  3. #33

    Default Re: What Fate Awaits the House of Guerlain?

    I'm of course still a neophyte to the house of Guerlain (see my wardrobe); but I feel:

    L'instant Magic is a superior creation that is worthy of being called a modern L'Heure Bleue.
    L'instant PH is also pretty good.
    Idylle is nothing special but still lovely.
    Reformulated Mitsouko EDP still smells pretty good (wearing it today actually).
    Q: How do you make a feminine fragrance masculine?
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  4. #34
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    Default Re: What Fate Awaits the House of Guerlain?

    Guerlain is making money and still has large fan base. Where's the problem? Oh yea, the proliferation of their product line, and us BN'ers being snooty at times and preferring the "artisanal" frags created by perfumer-wannabes with their chemistry lab sets..
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  5. #35

    Default Re: What Fate Awaits the House of Guerlain?

    Quote Originally Posted by zztopp View Post
    Guerlain is making money and still has large fan base. Where's the problem? Oh yea, the proliferation of their product line, and us BN'ers being snooty at times and preferring the "artisanal" frags created by perfumer-wannabes with their chemistry lab sets..
    Bud Light is making money and still has a large fanbase. Shitty beer, though, to anybody who appreciates quality brewing.
    Sure, it's not easy. I suppose the Guerlain family saw no viable (and equally lucrative) alternative to selling out to LVMH. They might have ultimately closed, a mid-sized company unable to survive among cosmetic/luxury megacorps and wily little niches. I realy don't care who makes perfume as long as it's good, but I do believe economics of scale work against quality in the luxury business, including perfume, which is why most of what LVMH touches becomes mediocre.
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  6. #36
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    Default Re: What Fate Awaits the House of Guerlain?

    Quote Originally Posted by the_good_life View Post
    I realy don't care who makes perfume as long as it's good, but I do believe economics of scale work against quality in the luxury business, including perfume, which is why most of what LVMH touches becomes mediocre.
    Exactly. You begin by cutting a few corners here and there, very few if anyone notices. So you cut a few more every now and then until you end up with a beautifully packaged mediocrity. LVMH are great at creating the imagery of luxury, but there is little real substance left when they've streamlined and cheapened every possible aspect of the production.

  7. #37

    Default Re: What Fate Awaits the House of Guerlain?

    Quote Originally Posted by the_good_life View Post
    Bud Light is making money and still has a large fanbase. Shitty beer, though, to anybody who appreciates quality brewing.
    Sure, it's not easy. I suppose the Guerlain family saw no viable (and equally lucrative) alternative to selling out to LVMH. They might have ultimately closed, a mid-sized company unable to survive among cosmetic/luxury megacorps and wily little niches. I realy don't care who makes perfume as long as it's good, but I do believe economics of scale work against quality in the luxury business, including perfume, which is why most of what LVMH touches becomes mediocre.
    I am still scratching my head over what happened to the House of Houbigant in the last 100 years or so. They also have a long pedigree (back to the 18th century, if I am correct) but look at the 1970s and beyond. The last release I can recall was Lutece, and that was so-so. The famed Musk Oil is still found here and there...
    "No elegance is possible without it...perfume is a part of you." Gabrielle "Coco" Chanel
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  8. #38

    Default Re: What Fate Awaits the House of Guerlain?

    Quote Originally Posted by zztopp View Post
    Guerlain is making money and still has large fan base. Where's the problem? Oh yea, the proliferation of their product line, and us BN'ers being snooty at times and preferring the "artisanal" frags created by perfumer-wannabes with their chemistry lab sets..
    Guerlain is actually doing pretty badly in the fragrance dept here in Asia tho.

  9. #39
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    Default Re: What Fate Awaits the House of Guerlain?

    jacques guerlain was a poetic soul.
    no more guerlains like he made them, those days are over.
    and i think turin was spot on when he mentioned patricia de nicolai as the should-be heir of guerlain.

  10. #40
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    Default Re: What Fate Awaits the House of Guerlain?

    Quote Originally Posted by gido View Post
    jacques guerlain was a poetic soul.
    no more guerlains like he made them, those days are over.
    and i think turin was spot on when he mentioned patricia de nicolai as the should-be heir of guerlain.
    Sadly I have to agree. I've mentioned this before: Thierry Wasser is the last person I'd expected as a chief nose for Guerlain. It is a huge miss-step by JP Guerlain and it's taking down the dodgy path of mass market mediocrities. Guerlain wd have done better had they poached Jacques Polge, or Bertrand Duchafour or even Francis Kurkdjian. Based on what I hear in terms of style, PdN is the heir-apparent.
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  11. #41
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    Default Re: What Fate Awaits the House of Guerlain?

    It would appear that there is some tiptoeing into this arena going on http://perfumeshrine.blogspot.com with a slight nod to those who care about such things with their "Guerlain Aqua Allegoria Bouquet Numéro 1," which references lineage and perfumer(s) and odd things like that. We'll see.
    Olfacta
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  12. #42

    Default Re: What Fate Awaits the House of Guerlain?

    even if Guerlain were to re-invent itself and go for a different direction, nothing much will change because there's more innovative perfumers out there who can create something just as similar.

    But smart thing for Guerlain to do would be to bring those rich smelling baroque perfumes back into style. That way they'll be able to carry on further as after all styles and trends are all controlled by the industry and the people in them.

  13. #43

    Default Re: What Fate Awaits the House of Guerlain?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondflame View Post
    Sadly I have to agree. I've mentioned this before: Thierry Wasser is the last person I'd expected as a chief nose for Guerlain. It is a huge miss-step by JP Guerlain and it's taking down the dodgy path of mass market mediocrities. Guerlain wd have done better had they poached Jacques Polge, or Bertrand Duchafour or even Francis Kurkdjian. Based on what I hear in terms of style, PdN is the heir-apparent.
    I'm not really up on the who's who of perfumers but I recognize every name in your post and can think of a few very good juices they've put together . . .all except Therry Wasser. I guess he did Truth for CK but that's the only one I've heard of. An unusual choice indeed and hardly the obvious candidate for chief perfumer of (arguably) the most lauded perfume house.

  14. #44

    Default Re: What Fate Awaits the House of Guerlain?

    I have to agree with those who see the Guerlain flacon as half empty and not half full.
    "You...put on cologne to write?"(From Midnight in Paris)

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  15. #45
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    Default Re: What Fate Awaits the House of Guerlain?

    Quote Originally Posted by the_good_life View Post
    Bud Light is making money and still has a large fanbase. Shitty beer, though, to anybody who appreciates quality brewing.
    Sure, it's not easy. I suppose the Guerlain family saw no viable (and equally lucrative) alternative to selling out to LVMH. They might have ultimately closed, a mid-sized company unable to survive among cosmetic/luxury megacorps and wily little niches. I realy don't care who makes perfume as long as it's good, but I do believe economics of scale work against quality in the luxury business, including perfume, which is why most of what LVMH touches becomes mediocre.
    Bud Light? Not really a very apt comparison. I will say a more appropriate comparison would be with a company such as Microsoft. A glowing tech history, still considered a giant in its domain, and was most innovative during the early years, but clearly not as cutting edge today (arguable atleast in Microsofts case), and shaky leadership. Still occasionally puts out a great product once in a while but relies mostly on relaunches of its core products to shore up sales and nostalgia (Windows, Office).

    Yes, Guerlain is the Microsoft of the perfume world.
    Last edited by zztopp; 2nd April 2010 at 05:04 AM.
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  16. #46
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    Default Re: What Fate Awaits the House of Guerlain?

    Quote Originally Posted by zztopp View Post
    Yes, Guerlain is the Microsoft of the perfume world.
    err.. that is not really a very apt comparison. in fact, it makes no sense at all.
    Last edited by gido; 2nd April 2010 at 09:12 AM.

  17. #47

    Default Re: What Fate Awaits the House of Guerlain?

    Don't blame Thierry Wasser for mediocrities. Blame LVMH for briefing him to create mainstream stuff on a shoestring.
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  18. #48
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    Default Re: What Fate Awaits the House of Guerlain?

    Quote Originally Posted by N_Tesla View Post
    Without a Guerlain at the helm can the great House of Guerlain survive? It gives one pause to ponder whether Thierry Wasser will be able to carry on the tradition. Idylle seems a departure from what one would expect going forward with guerlain. I just feel uneasy with my favorite House's fate. Change is inevitable but not always good. As long as the Guerlain Classics still are produced I will be happy but as for new fragrances I am not certain that even Jean Claude Ellena would be up to the task, although I would feel a little more at ease with him at the helm. I wonder if you share my concern?
    I also wonder about Patricia de Nicolai. I don't know that much about her as a person or a business exec. But I've tried a number of her perfumes and they're great -- original, but not weird. It is said that many of them have been reformulated, which I've experienced personally with Odalisque. And it did seem as though PdN didn't put up much of a fight. I wonder what her long-range plans are.

    I've written about this before but I can't help see many parallels between the music business of the 80's into the 90's and the perfume business now. Small labels putting out quality music get devoured by big conglomerates run by bean-counting Suits who are afraid to rock the boat. The business model: throw money at it, if it doesn't stick right away, dump it and on to the next thing. No respect for the consumer, no real development, just the short-term thinking that has, imho, drive all the "creative" businesses right into the ground.
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  19. #49

    Default Re: What Fate Awaits the House of Guerlain?

    Quote Originally Posted by joey86 View Post
    They already have a niche exclusif range. La petit robe noire, Le arte en matiere, Les exlirs charnels etc......
    Yes but what happens if you live outside Paris or the US(yes there are other countries), just because you guys get it all doesn't mean we do. I was referring to releasing these as limited edtions for the rest of the world, not just the US which gets everything. Every department store world wide as Serge Lutens does with his Paris exclusives for one year on general release.

    Department stores in the UK and Ireland have nothing but the usual suspects and even then if you want more than edt you have get it ordered in especially.
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  20. #50
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    Default Re: What Fate Awaits the House of Guerlain?

    Quote Originally Posted by gido View Post
    err.. that is not really a very apt comparison. in fact, it makes no sense at all.
    It wont make sense to you if you don't know how Microsoft operates or what Microsoft is. To me I can draw enough parallels between Guerlain and Microsoft and it makes sense to me because I am in the business technology domain. You may choose to make an artsy/design corporate/classical music comparison if you choose.
    Last edited by zztopp; 2nd April 2010 at 05:21 PM.
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  21. #51

    Default Re: What Fate Awaits the House of Guerlain?

    Quote Originally Posted by zztopp View Post
    It wont make sense to you if you don't know how Microsoft operates or what Microsoft is. To me I can draw enough parallels between Guerlain and Microsoft and it makes sense to me because I am in the business technology domain. You may choose to make an artsy/design corporate/classical music comparison if you choose.
    Maybe you could be more helpful and actually explain your Microsoft comparison to him.

    Also, being in a particular domain doesn't mean you automatically make sense.
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  22. #52
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    Default Re: What Fate Awaits the House of Guerlain?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stereotomy View Post
    Maybe you could be more helpful and actually explain your Microsoft comparison to him.

    Also, being in a particular domain doesn't mean you automatically make sense.
    See my post #45. I don't know what more I should say, its self explanatory. I dont have time to put it in simpler english he can run it through a translation tool.
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  23. #53

    Default Re: What Fate Awaits the House of Guerlain?

    Quote Originally Posted by zztopp View Post
    See my post #45. I don't know what more I should say, its self explanatory.
    Your comparison to Microsoft is flawed and you try to hide it by telling more trivial stuff such as that 'you are in the business technology domain', as if that would make anything you say have more sense. Way to go.

    Guerlain has been acquired by LVMH because it couldn't operate alone anymore. Now LVMH is dictating the mediocrities from above for this brand. Microsoft, as you might know, is an independent company, very capable of deciding its own direction, producing more technology patents than almost any other company in your 'business technology domain'.

    Your comparison is wrong.

    I dont have time to put it in simpler english he can run it through a translation tool.
    He understands your English just fine, just like most non-native English speakers here on the forum do. Do you really need to be this degrading to people who speak English as a 2nd or 3rd language? This only shows your lack of eloquence.
    Last edited by Stereotomy; 3rd April 2010 at 01:55 AM.
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  24. #54

    Default Re: What Fate Awaits the House of Guerlain?

    I've heard of LMVH being compared to Microsoft, but certainly not Guerlain. Guerlain is too small to be compared to Microsoft unless they bought a bunch of smaller perfume houses along the way.

    Secondly, Microsoft's products are starting to improve. That's not the case with Guerlain, Dior or anyone else swallowed by LVMH.

    Which aspect of Guerlain does it has in common with Microsoft? Honestly i work in the IT sector and that comparison dosent make sense at all.

  25. #55
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    Default Re: What Fate Awaits the House of Guerlain?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stereotomy View Post
    Your comparison to Microsoft is flawed and you try to hide it by telling more trivial stuff such as that 'you are in the business technology domain', as if that would make anything you say have more sense. Way to go.

    Guerlain has been acquired by LVMH because it couldn't operate alone anymore. Now LVMH is dictating the mediocrities from above for this brand. Microsoft, as you might know, is an independent company, very capable of deciding its own direction, producing more technology patents than almost any other company in your 'business technology domain'.

    Your comparison is wrong.



    He understands your English just fine, just like most non-native English speakers here on the forum do. Do you really need to be this degrading to people who speak English as a 2nd or 3rd language? This only shows your lack of eloquence.
    Since you intend to stretch this out, let me give you a go at it.

    The comparison isn't a 1-to-1 match but its pretty close. You don't need to teach me about Microsoft, I have thorough knowledge of their patents and history (another stat: in a recently released report they lag only IBM in the total number of patents awarded overall in the Tech industry, but IBMs share is more in the server/hardware sector). If you are a Microsoft fanboy, I can understand the harsh disagreement (they are a fairly stubborn bunch), but the general consensus is that the company isn't the force it once was (the recent lull is due to cloudy leadership and immense size). BTW, LVMH is not primarily a perfume company.

    As one of the leading tech giants in the industry, my comparison was intended to highlight Guerlains clout in a similar manner as that of Microsofts. An influential initial progenitor of the industry and still highly regarded (at this point we can disregard the other 'early groundbreaking' companies such as SDC/DEC/ or Molinard/Coty/etc in the perfume business. Just like how Microsoft built on the early breathroughs by these computer companies yet still blazed an early and innovative trail in the industry, Guerlain did the same by improving and building on the Coty foundations and entrenched in perfume history.

    The comparison is especially apt when comparing the expanding product line - just like how Microsoft increasingly relies on past hits for positive feel and growth, Guerlain does the same with its classic line while exploring diverging product lines which aren't as innovative as its past hits. A sense of conservatism now exists in both companies (although one can argue with that both are recently resurgent with Natal/Bing and the L'Arte line) with an unwillingness to innovate as before. Both companies still exert immense influence in the industry, sometimes able to strong arm sources into obtaining the best materials or acquire software companies.

    I will be glad to take this to PMs if you want more but I will not further engage in any efforts by you to either create a stir in this thread and derail it. If you don't agree with my views thats fine, present yours and we can see what you have to say.
    Last edited by zztopp; 3rd April 2010 at 03:07 AM.
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  26. #56

    Default Re: What Fate Awaits the House of Guerlain?

    Quote Originally Posted by N_Tesla View Post
    All of your statements are meritorious and bespeak my trepidation over the future of Guerlain and other Houses. As an observation; big business has a tendency to buy up successful businesses, run them into the ground for every penny that can be had, buy some more, do the same endlessly and limit creativity and competition in the market. The artistry and reputation of a quality product, which is initially created by a profitable House passes into the event horizon of the black hole of big business, everything goes in and nothing comes out, ever. The unlitmate losers are the lovers of the perfumery art , that would be us. Cynicism is not lost upon our plight my friends.
    I appreciate your ability to simultaneously see the micro and macro of things, being cognicient of the correlations and disconnects between them.

    As a possible ray of hope.....who is doing the new Guerlain Eau De Cologne?
    Last edited by DULLAH; 3rd April 2010 at 03:13 AM.

  27. #57
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    Default Re: What Fate Awaits the House of Guerlain?

    I"m hopeful for Guerlain's future, actually. i own full bottles of apres L'ondee (1906), l'heure Bleue and Mitsouko (1912 ish), nahema (1979?), Bois D'armenie (2006). Chamade is my next purchase, and Cuir Beluga i'll buy this fall.

    It's also not that i don't like Tonka Imperial or Boise Torride, i'm just not a fan of gourmands (But i do appreciate the quality of these gorgeous scents)
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  28. #58
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    Default Re: What Fate Awaits the House of Guerlain?

    I sincerely hope someone at Guerlain takes the time to read these posts.

  29. #59

    Default Re: What Fate Awaits the House of Guerlain?

    What a bunch of nervous Nellies here! Guerlain, which not too long ago was a floundering family owned business, would have probably be long gone, or a shadow of its former self, if it weren't for the LVMH take-over! Would you rather that Guerlain went it alone and ended up trashing their classics like Caron due to a lack of funds and access to top quality resources? Guerlain is still creating and releasing some truly amazing fragrances, why are you all making such short shrift of them?
    Plus Que Jamais
    Insolence EdP

    Spiritueuse Double Vanille

    Bois d'Arménie
    L'Instant Pour Homme

    Monsieur Wasser's very own Quand Vient La Pluie
    and Jicky, the current formula still smells great!
    Would you all prefer they continued with things like Champs-Elysées, Cherry Blossom and Mahora instead?
    Last edited by Kevin Guyer; 4th April 2010 at 04:35 PM.

  30. #60

    Default Re: What Fate Awaits the House of Guerlain?

    Quote Originally Posted by N_Tesla View Post
    I sincerely hope someone at Guerlain takes the time to read these posts.
    Sylvanie's blog is this way: http://espritdeparfum.com/ leave a french comment saying that "oh look! they're talking about guerlain!" :P

    k i'll do it in a bit

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruggles View Post
    What a bunch of nervous Nellies here! Guerlain. which not too long ago was a floundering family owned business, would have probably be long gone if they weren't re-financed by LVMH. They're still creating and releasing some truly amazing fragrances:
    Plus Que Jamais
    Insolence EdP

    Spiritueuse Double Vanille

    Oriental Brulant

    Bois d'Arménie
    L'Instant Pour Homme

    and Monsieur Wasser's very own Quand Vient La Pluie.
    Would you all prefer they continued with things like Champs-Elysées, Cherry Blossom and Mahora?
    I have never encountered Mahora yet but Champs seems to be doing quite good here in malaysia, along with samsara. I see the tester for Champs at almost every counter and i can find it at the discounters as well. Cherry blossom was medicore.


    however i do wish they'd leave at least 1 counter here in malaysia with their classics like l'heure bleu, apres l'ondee, mouchouir de monseiur etc, or the very least some of their colongues like eau imperiale (i understand this is a tropical country, and heady/baroque perfumes wont sell much) so that we can appreciate it more :P

    I like l'instant PH, but its similiarities to eau de beaux is kinda disturbing especially for what i paid for it.

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