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  1. #31

    Default Re: How much is perfume a French artifact?

    I feel what is perceived as French taste, these days, is quite often the end result of an eclectic mix of world cultures working in what can be seen as a French idiom. Take Chanel for example, a French company that almost died from creative exhaustion after the death of its namesake founder Coco Chanel. It's been brought back to credibility and profitability by a cabal of international design talents.
    First and foremost there's the German, Karl Lagerfeld and his English muse, Lady Amanda Harlech. Then we have Chanel shoes and handbags designed by a Brazilian, Laurence Roberge Bernardo and an Italian, Kayla Paulini. And of course there's the Englishman, Christopher Sheldrake, Director of Development and Research of Fine Fragrances to complete the international roster.
    It's sort of like American baseball, where would it be without the Latinos?
    Last edited by Kevin Guyer; 21st April 2010 at 02:43 PM.

  2. #32

    Default Re: How much is perfume a French artifact?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Guyer View Post
    What is often perceived as French taste is, in reality, an eclectic mix of world cultures. Take Chanel for example, a very French company that almost died of exhaustion and is continuously being revived by a cabal of international talents.
    First and foremost there's the German, Karl Lagerfeld and his English muse, Lady Amanda Harlech. Then we have Chanel shoes and handbags designed by a Brazilian, Laurence Roberge Bernardo and an Italian, Kayla Paulini. And of course there's the Englishman, Christopher Sheldrake, Director of Development and Research of Fine Fragrances to complete the international roster.
    It's sort of like American baseball, where would it be without the Latinos?
    The French were overwhelmed by Anglomania at the beginning of the 19th century and took many English ideas and fashions to heart. The early men's clubs such as "le jockey club" were created by aristocrats influenced by living in England after many French nobles and their families fled at the time of the French Revolution. The English, of course, were profoundly influenced by French culture after the 11th century with William the Conquerer.

    I understand France had "Russian mania" in a similar fashion in the 1920s when many Russian aristocrats fled to France following the Revolution of 1917. Cuir de Russie, anyone?
    Last edited by Primrose; 19th April 2010 at 06:09 PM.
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  3. #33
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    Default Re: How much is perfume a French artifact?

    Quote Originally Posted by Primrose View Post
    Think of L'Eau Ambree by Prada. French name, Italian company...and I think the juice is made in Spain.
    Hee hee! Another really good example is Amouage: it's an Arabian company with a portfolio of mideast-influenced fragrances that have very little to do with even the general tradition of French perfumery. IIRC, even the name comes from an Arabic word (amwaj = wave), and yet it's been given an adventitious lashing of Frenchness.

    Clearly, somebody's thinking (or thinking that somebody thinks :-), "If it's not French, it's shite!"

  4. #34

    Default Re: How much is perfume a French artifact?

    Quote Originally Posted by NillaGoon View Post
    Hee hee! Another really good example is Amouage: it's an Arabian company with a portfolio of mideast-influenced fragrances that have very little to do with even the general tradition of French perfumery.
    Actually I find, for the most part, Amouage's fragrances to be very traditionally old-school French in their construction. Omani frankincense, their common denominator, is an Arabic ingredient they all share, but it doesn't signify their style. The Amouage attars, of course, are a different story, but Gold, Ubar, Lyric all are très Francais to my nes.
    Last edited by Kevin Guyer; 20th April 2010 at 02:54 PM.

  5. #35

    Default Re: How much is perfume a French artifact?

    What a great post this is. I am still eager to learn so much about Scents and how they "work". This reminds Me of how much I still need to educate Myself about the wonderful world of Fragrances. Thank You Everyone for adding so much and please continue.

  6. #36
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    Default Re: How much is perfume a French artifact?

    Quote Originally Posted by NillaGoon View Post
    Hee hee! Another really good example is Amouage: it's an Arabian company with a portfolio of mideast-influenced fragrances that have very little to do with even the general tradition of French perfumery. [...snip]
    Here's a quote from the Amouage website:

    "Adopting an artistic approach to create an original and evocatively fragrant experience, Amouage perfumes are created by internationally recognized perfumers in Grasse in the South of France under the guidance of Amouage Creative Director, Christopher Chong." [Emphasis added]

    Amouage's first perfumes were made by the famous French nose Guy Robert. Guy Robert is the author of Les Sens du Parfum and a former president of the French Society of Perfumers. Perfumes created by Guy Robert include:
    Amouage Amouage (1983)
    Christian Dior Dioressence (1979)
    Gucci No. 1 (1972)
    Hermes Calèche (1961)
    Hermes Equipage (1970)
    La Prairie One Perfect Rose (1990)
    Mary Quant Havoc (1974)
    Pink Room Parfum no. 1 (1999)
    Rochas Madame Rochas (original version, 1960)
    Rochas Monsieur Rochas (1969)
    [from Now Smell This blog]
    Nothing to do with France?
    Last edited by JaimeB; 20th April 2010 at 06:16 AM.
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  7. #37
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    Default Re: How much is perfume a French artifact?

    Quote Originally Posted by JaimeB View Post
    Nothing to do with France?
    I stand corrected! Most of the individual perfumers seem to be French as well.

    It's interesting that their web site plays up the Omani connection. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that Amouage "has nothing to do with Oman." :-)
    Last edited by NillaGoon; 20th April 2010 at 10:18 PM.

  8. #38

    Default Re: How much is perfume a French artifact?

    A very interesting conversation. While France's contribution to perfumery has been very important in the modern era, I'd still give the prize to the Middle East for inventing the extraction techniques and technology that modern perfumery is based upon. And in the 8th-9th century, no less! The alcohol and perfume oil form fragrances are sold in was pioneered over a thousand years ago by the perfumers of Baghdad (they invented effective alcohol distillation, so they had a leg up there). Modern perfume aesthetics are very heavily French but the mechanics were worked out long ago (modern synthetics aside).

    . . .but I don't think any single culture can claim perfume as an artifact any more than they could claim food or music. I'd be very interested in seeing a comparison of different cultures' fragrance aesthetics.

  9. #39
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    Default Re: How much is perfume a French artifact?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zizanioides View Post
    A very interesting conversation. While France's contribution to perfumery has been very important in the modern era, I'd still give the prize to the Middle East for inventing the extraction techniques and technology that modern perfumery is based upon. And in the 8th-9th century, no less! The alcohol and perfume oil form fragrances are sold in was pioneered over a thousand years ago by the perfumers of Baghdad (they invented effective alcohol distillation, so they had a leg up there). Modern perfume aesthetics are very heavily French but the mechanics were worked out long ago (modern synthetics aside).

    . . .but I don't think any single culture can claim perfume as an artifact any more than they could claim food or music. I'd be very interested in seeing a comparison of different cultures' fragrance aesthetics.
    I mention Arab distillation in a blog post of mine here: http://www.basenotes.net/entries/800-Some-Arab-Contributions-to-Perfumery.

    "Perfume Technology.

    Distillation. A method of distillation using an instrument called an alembic, which greatly improved efficiency and yield, was developed by Arabs in 7th or 8th century. It was applied to many materials, including aromatic ones."

    The basic techniques of distillation were developed by the Arabs, it is true; but more recent developments in distillation techniques, such a supercritical CO2 distillation and molecular (vacuum) distillation, are the contributions of modern scientists. These techniques are responsible for making possible the production of much purer absolutes.

    International tastes have been affected by some cultural considerations. In men's perfumes especially, some Middle eastern tastes have been propagated in recent years, such as the fashion for rose, the expansion of oud, and that kind of thing. Of course, that doesn't affect a lot of consumers of "light" scents, but it has had some impact on the higher-end markets. Can you think of any others? Any Indian perfumes with kewra (pandanus or screwpine) or any exotic African botanicals, like karo karounde flower, which has made an appearance in a couple of things recently, notably Duchaufour's Timbuktu.


    Come on guys, chime in, this thread is getting more interesting as we go along...
    Last edited by JaimeB; 21st April 2010 at 12:08 AM.
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  10. #40
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    Default Re: How much is perfume a French artifact?

    I think if Amouage is representative of an Arabic emulation of western traditions, then Montale is a clear case of vice-versa in some respects. Generally there's been an increased awareness that there is a unique perfumery tradition in the Middle East, especially over the past decade or so, what with the oud craze and so forth.

    I think a number of things gained precedence through the ( largely Anglophone ) hippie movement that might not have otherwise, especially the desire for the "all natural" in many areas. The '50s and early '60s aesthetic in much of west was for clean, modern, and "scientific" in many areas, and I think these social changes during '60s and early '70s brought herbalism and aromatherapy to where they are today in terms of popularity, and thus, natural perfumery. Just a look at the Natural Perfumers Guild's members list shows that, despite a few dotted around Europe, despite French roots both in Aromatherapy and in perfume style, the modern manifestation of natural perfumery is a largely American phenomenon.

    I'd be curious to learn if the rise in popularity of all things Indian, likewise during the '60s, has introduced more of the Indian perfumery world to the west. It still seems largely hidden, despite many raw ingredients and a smattering of attars originating from there being popular.

    A big part of the difficulty of analyzing things today in national terms has been the trend, accelerating for hundreds of years, really, of everything to be on an international scale. A Ruggles pointed out about, even the exceedingly French Chanel is now an all-sorts of international names. Even Ernest Beaux was born and raised in Russia, after all...

  11. #41
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    Default Re: How much is perfume a French artifact?

    Galamb Borong's last comment is well-founded.

    Pierre Montale went to Saudi Arabia in 2001 and created many perfumes that were intended for use by various members of the Saudi royal family. In doing so, he consulted with them and prepared perfumes in the Arabian style, using many ingredients not very common in Western perfumes, such as oud and gurjum, as well as incorporating the prominent use of damask rose in masculine fragrances. Pierre Montale returned to Paris in 2003 and opened his own house, where he began to produce two lines of perfumes: one which used the materials and inspirations he had learned to provide for the Saudi royals; and another which was largely a conventional European-style line, but which took care in selecting high quality materials worthy of his former royal patrons.

    There is no doubt that the line of Aouds created quite a sensation in the West among perfume cognoscenti. The Middle Eastern tastes represented not only Arabian, but also some Indian traditions in perfumery; I especially like Attar, which is a blend of fine sandalwood and Rosa damascena intended for masculine use. It is the epitome of oriental male elegance, and not something most Euro-American guys would wear to the office! With this line, Montale had a big impact on a small segment of the market, but a very sophisticated and influential one. Even so, the deciding factor in the sudden proliferation of oud-prominent scents from other designers may have had more to do with the introduction of good oud-mimicking synthetics, which made it possible to produce convincing imitations at much lower cost.

    The second Montale line is represented by some very distinctively European genres and design concepts, including chypres and fougères, and even a couple with marine notes, Embruns d'Essaouira and Fougères Marines. Soleil de Capri is a very good citrus floral appealing to both sexes. Red Vetiver was a fresh take on a very well-entrenched and familiar scent genre in the European tradition. There are also some florientals in the line. This line reinforced Montale's reputation as a perfumer in the French tradition.

    It is interesting that the Saudis chose a French nose to develop their scents for them when they had plenty of home-grown perfumers at hand who were expert in the traditional style of Arabian perfumery. I guess the interpenetration of perfume tastes cuts fairly equally in both directions: wealthy Middle Easterners have long consumed French perfumes, and seem to have perceived that a French nose might be successful at a syncretistic approach in creating perfumes in the middle ground between European and Middle Eastern tastes.

    The Omani royal house may have provoked some jealousy in their Saudi neighbors with the Amouage line: prestige and cachet are ever the concern of the powerful. If I had to say in which direction the influences of European and Middle Eastern styles came and went in these two houses (the Saudis and the Omanis, or if you like, Montale and Amouage), it would be hard to pull all the threads of that weave apart and give a definitive answer.

    One thing I can say is that I am very happy to have the best of both worlds available to me, and that it seems (to me at least) that the ability of French and other Western perfumers to incorporate new exotic elements into the existing corpus of the French perfume tradition bespeaks its versatility, openness to innovation, and continued future prospects.
    Last edited by JaimeB; 21st April 2010 at 07:43 AM.
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  12. #42

    Default Re: How much is perfume a French artifact?

    Well...for me...I believe that the French culture is typically specified by their aesthetic history...Ie; Chanel, Guerlain, Serge Lutens, Frederic Malle, Givenchy, Dior++++ SOO MANY more...it seems as if that is apart of their Nomenclature, it's just staple, settled and satiable! It's almost like settling the Greek culture for their Food, Mythology and Philosophy, they do get a bit more kudos than other nationalities only for the pertinent fact that they're prolific for these Epochs!

    For me, it's just history repeating itself.. ...though it takes people of refined knowledge in perfumes to conclude for themselves!!

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  13. #43

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    Default Re: How much is perfume a French artifact?

    Re: Montale and Amouage:

    A very clear and detailed post on (Pierre) Montale, Xaime, some of which confirms my own observations and perceptions. Outside of beauty press, I never saw much of a biography on Pierre Montale, and nothing substantial regarding the house. I would therefore appreciate it very much, if you could kindly offer a few links to the documents you may have used here. I am wondering what makes you believe that P. Montale is the real owner of the perfume house? It's still a puzzle to me, and there are a few bits that do not seem to fit in.

    About a year ago, there has been a TV documentary on the Oman, and Omani investments in the West have been part of it. It became quite obvious that Amouage is one of those. Members of the royal family do take pride in perfume creations of their own, but the main purpose of the Amouage company is to make more €uros from their precious Olibanum than they do by simply exporting the raw material. That's mainly why they rely on les nez francais. Luca Turin had been invited to attend the Amouage jubilee events and subsequently wrote about that in NZZ Folio. He is confirming the Amouage project more or less directly there. (details in post # 55)
    Last edited by narcus; 22nd April 2010 at 10:53 PM.
    'Il mondo dei profumi è un universo senza limiti: una fraganza puo rievocare sensazioni, luoghi, persone o ancora condurre in uno spazio di nuove dimensioni emozionali' L. V.

  14. #44
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    Default Re: How much is perfume a French artifact?

    Geehrter Narcus:

    The articles I read on Montale were all from promotional materials or perfume blogs and reviews: mostly puff pieces with not a lot of business information. The ones that mention his shop all say he opened it in Paris in 2003, but nobody indicates if he was the direct owner. Further searching leads to dead ends. The Parfums Montale website doesn't allow me entry; the Google maps app says the Place Vendôme address is invalid. I remember hearing something about a lab in Switzerland; it's a vague recollection, but I think it was in Geneva. It may have come from Vijay (maisonstinky), but I haven't seen him around Basenotes in a while... Sorry I can't be more helpful...
    Last edited by JaimeB; 21st April 2010 at 02:54 PM.
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  15. #45

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    Default Re: How much is perfume a French artifact?

    Alright then, until we know otherwise, I think it would be wise to consider it possible that the 'Maison Montale' is either a direct Saudi investment managed by PM, or a European (French or Swiss) entity run by Pierre M. with Saudi financial participation. Remember how Montale started out overnight, from nowhere, without visible press but with almost 30 different fragrances? How can one install oneself in the heart of the French capital with such an impressive number of perfumes, unless at extremely high costs? I find it strange that nobody seems to have had these questions at the time, but if Google never bothered to cover much of the French press these would be hard to find.

    About six months later I got aware of their existence by Vijay's (Maisonstinky's) posts. His enthusiasm inspired not only me at that time. What appeared strange in the early days: I didn't need to order from Paris. Our Swiss flagship perfume shop also had at minimum 50% of both lines (big bottles) nicely displayed and ready to be sold. At that time I thought the Swiss-Arabian Perfume Group, Al Arabiya Al Swissriya might have something to do with that, but I didn't pursue that idea. What I found out instead: there was a Montale business entity registered not far from Geneva and by strange coincidence in a mountain resort called Crans-Montana. I later got aware of the fact that some of the Paris orders were actually executed from Switzerland. And there was a contact telephone number in Geneva that I and others used for some special requests. (traces should be in BN Archives).
    Last edited by narcus; 22nd April 2010 at 03:41 PM.
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  16. #46
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    Default Re: How much is perfume a French artifact?

    Interesting reading. The Montale plot thickens! Has anyone written Montale and asked...? ( Not sure how open companies are about these things, but still, might be worth trying. )

  17. #47

    Default Re: How much is perfume a French artifact?

    Pierre Montale founded (and later sold) Comptoir Sud Pacifique. A French member of the Beauté-Test forum says Mr Montale told him so and said he was working with the same team of perfumers as he did with CSP.

  18. #48

    Default Re: How much is perfume a French artifact?

    Quote Originally Posted by carmencanada View Post
    Pierre Montale founded (and later sold) Comptoir Sud Pacifique. A French member of the Beauté-Test forum says Mr Montale told him so and said he was working with the same team of perfumers as he did with CSP.
    Wow, this explains the Montale aluminum bottles and why so many of the Montales offerings remind me of CSP's Barbier des Isles.
    Thanks for sharing your insider knowledge with us, Carmen.
    Last edited by Kevin Guyer; 21st April 2010 at 08:52 PM.

  19. #49
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    Default Re: How much is perfume a French artifact?

    Quote Originally Posted by carmencanada View Post
    Pierre Montale founded (and later sold) Comptoir Sud Pacifique. A French member of the Beauté-Test forum says Mr Montale told him so and said he was working with the same team of perfumers as he did with CSP.
    We are soooooo happy to have you here, Carmen, our purveyor of inside knowledge!

    I never would have made that connection otherwise.

  20. #50
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    Default Re: How much is perfume a French artifact?

    Quote Originally Posted by Galamb_Borong View Post
    Interesting reading. The Montale plot thickens! Has anyone written Montale and asked...? ( Not sure how open companies are about these things, but still, might be worth trying. )
    It would be nice to be able to contact them, but the unavailability of their website does complicate matters. I've tried various searches, and have had no luck finding address, web address, email address, or other contact information for them. Corporate information seems hard to track also.
    Last edited by JaimeB; 21st April 2010 at 11:58 PM.
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  21. #51

    Default Re: How much is perfume a French artifact?

    A search for boring industry trivia?! Count me in!

    It looks like the original holder of the Montale trademark was either one Atmeh Ammar of Dubai, UAE or one Sylvie Fretier, rue Danielle Casanova Paris, FRANCIA. That doesn't mean the capital came from the UAE especially since Mr. Ammar's claim to the trademark was invalidated in favor of Fretier's but he has since filed a dissent with the trademark office and we shall see what happens.

    Jamie, what was their old website address? I might be able to track down the registering company. And what exactly did people want to know about Montale?

  22. #52
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    Default Re: How much is perfume a French artifact?

    Zizanoides,

    The original website (still listed in the Basenotes Directory) was http://www.montaleparfums.com/. When I click on this, I get a "Forbidden" message.

    Another one I have found is http://www.montaleparfums.net/. Clicking on this one gets a "Reserved" message: "
    The domain name you have requested isn't available It has been reserved on gandi.net and parked as unused." If you go to that url, you can get WhoIs information by clicking on the More Information link. Among other things it shows recent activity: "Changed: 2010-04-19 17:43:03."
    Last edited by JaimeB; 22nd April 2010 at 06:05 AM.
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  23. #53

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    Default Re: How much is perfume a French artifact?

    Ha, synchronized efforts ! I meant to actually add fresh paint to our mental picture of Grasse, the "Cradle of European Perfumery" today, but will have to postpone that in favor of most some recent info collected on Montale

    (1) The Swiss Branch (brain center, or whatever) seems to actually have expanded since I looked into details in 2008 or early 2009. The main address has changed , but older addresses are also still listed. New is a separate unit (company) for cosmetics.

    Montale Parfums GD SA

    Rue du Rhodania 1
    3963 Crans-Montana
    Telefon: 027 480 23 44

    By the way, as I was checking links, I came across a source listing a total of 67 Eaux dP, a rather impressive number even for Paris, and high financial exposure I would think. It would be most extraordinary if this was realized by one person (or a family enterpries only, unless there are enormous funds (petrodollars as i am inclined to believe) behind that.

    (2)
    Their new Paris website works, if only halfway, but that has often been the case in recent years also. It doesn't really serve sales and is nrather unusual for a French company (or a foreign company that has their European business managed well).

    Try this link:



    (3) @ Zizanoides:

    'Montale'
    (trademark).

    There could be a problem because there is or has been yet another Montale business entity, Montale Montres (montres = French for watches), a company manufacturing and /or selling quartz watches. This company is on ‘The Black List of watchmakers' in Germany, a list that has also been published by Ebay Germany to warn buyers.
    Unfortunately, identical company and brand names can cause serious conflicts and even damages. Some of them cannot easily be solved, particularly when the
    entities are active or dimiciled in different countries.

    (4)
    Domaine Tools.com releases the following details on Montale Perfumes (actual, or outdated):

    Plan du site : Montale Parfums - Réalisé par PlanetWebmaster. Montal-Parfums ... autour du AOUD. Accueil. Boutique. Distribution. Contact. 100. Parfums.
    www.montaleparfums.com/montale_FR.php - Im Cache

    “Here's what we know about montaleparfumsparis.com:”


    DomainTools for Windows®
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    domain: montaleparfumsparis.com
    reg_created: 2007-07-03 15:18:40
    expires: 2011-07-03 15:18:40
    created: 2007-07-03 17:18:34
    changed: 2010-04-19 17:43:46
    transfer-prohibited: yes
    ns0: ns1.ict-backbone.com
    ns1: trinity.bluegix.com
    owner-c:
    nic-hdl: HT450-GANDI
    owner-name: pla'net webmaster
    organisation: pla'net webmaster
    person: HERVE TEBOUL
    address: 47 rue de la ferme
    zipcode: 93100
    city: montreuil sous bois
    country: France
    phone: +33.148182060
    fax: +33.148971631
    email: [IMG]file:///C:/DOKUME%7E1/Besitzer/LOKALE%7E1/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif[/IMG]
    lastupdated: 2010-01-27 10:30:33
    admin-c:
    nic-hdl: HT450-GANDI
    owner-name: pla'net webmaster
    organisation: pla'net webmaster
    person: HERVE TEBOUL
    address: 47 rue de la ferme
    zipcode: 93100
    city: montreuil sous bois
    country: France
    phone: +33.148182060
    fax: +33.148971631
    email: [IMG]file:///C:/DOKUME%7E1/Besitzer/LOKALE%7E1/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif[/IMG]
    lastupdated: 2010-01-27 10:30:33
    tech-c:
    nic-hdl: HT450-GANDI
    owner-name: pla'net webmaster
    organisation: pla'net webmaster
    person: HERVE TEBOUL
    address: 47 rue de la ferme
    zipcode: 93100
    city: montreuil sous bois
    country: France
    phone: +33.148182060
    fax: +33.148971631
    email: [IMG]file:///C:/DOKUME%7E1/Besitzer/LOKALE%7E1/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif[/IMG]
    lastupdated: 2010-01-27 10:30:33
    bill-c:
    nic-hdl: LD2393-GANDI
    organisation: DELTA CONSULTING
    person: Laurent DEREIX
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    phone: +33.615922417
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    lastupdated: 2010-03-05 17:29:27"
    (end quote)

    Last edited by narcus; 22nd April 2010 at 11:42 PM.
    'Il mondo dei profumi è un universo senza limiti: una fraganza puo rievocare sensazioni, luoghi, persone o ancora condurre in uno spazio di nuove dimensioni emozionali' L. V.

  24. #54
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    Default Re: How much is perfume a French artifact?

    Thank you Narcus and Zizanoides for the enlightening information about Montale.

    A word about Amouage's business arrangements and creative team:

    Their main office is in London, where their creative consultant is located, Christopher Chong. The CEO is David Crickmore. The Chairman of the Board is a member of the Omani Sultanate family, His Highness Sayyid Hamad bin Hamoud Al Busaid, who is also said to have set up the corporation at the command of the Sultan of Oman, Qābūs ibn Sa’īd Āl Sa’īd, in 1983. Incidentally, I found a lot of this information online in an Indian publication, The Mangalorean.

    As you can see, their business model clearly incorporates both European and Middle Eastern leadership. Financing is harder to unravel.

    In addition to the founding nose, Guy Robert, Amouage has used Bernard Duchaufour, Jean-Claude Ellena, Mark Buxton, Maurice Roucel, and Lucas Sieuzac to design some of their scents.
    Last edited by JaimeB; 22nd April 2010 at 07:25 AM.
    Yr good bud,

    JaimeB

    "Why spend life seeking that which does not satisfy? Why remain a slave, when freedom waits? Let your life shine; illumine the world with your truth!"

    My Wardrobe
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    Fiat justitia ruat cælum.

    Let justice be done, even if the sky should fall.

    Lucius Calpurnius Piso Caesoninus

    Qui nihil potest sperare, desperet nihil.
    Let him who can hope for nothing despair of nothing.

    Male irato ferrum committitur.
    It is an evil thing to arm an angry man.
    —Seneca

  25. #55

    narcus's Avatar
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    Default Re: How much is perfume a French artifact?

    Thanks Xaime. In complete contrast to Montale's, cards for Amouage had been on the table from the beginning. And this company has also been under a good management. At least they know how to run a business properly. It is normal practice to have one or more local representatives where the affiliate is domiciled. I can only speculate that Pierre Montale probably needs someone at his side to take care of all administrative matters, communication, and the company's public appearance.

    For those who hadn't been here in 2007, Luca Turin: "...I had rehearsed a speech exhorting him to hire the orientalist perfumer Bertrand Duchaufour for his next fragrance..." [for Amougae]

    Quote Originally Posted by narcus View Post
    Luca Turin in Folio – December 3, 2007

    Amouage

    "The story of Amouage is remarkable. Twenty five years ago an Omani prince decided that his country, renowned since Egyptian times for the quality of its frankincense, home to the unique Green Mountain rose and on whose beaches half the world’s ambergris lands at random, needed a perfume firm that would take on the world’s greatest....." (link = Amouage )
    Last edited by narcus; 22nd April 2010 at 12:09 PM.
    'Il mondo dei profumi è un universo senza limiti: una fraganza puo rievocare sensazioni, luoghi, persone o ancora condurre in uno spazio di nuove dimensioni emozionali' L. V.

  26. #56

    Default Re: How much is perfume a French artifact?

    To get back to the original debate of the post, and to tie in with our conversation on Montale and Amouage: I wrote a short essay on Jubilation 25 a little while ago in which I wondered whether the Middle East, via Amouage, wasn't actually the last place to believe in French classic perfumery... It's a bit too long to sum up here but I'd love to read your comments, either here or on the blog post.

  27. #57
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    Default Re: How much is perfume a French artifact?

    Bravo, Carmen! The piece was dripping with a kind of nostalgia (a larval nostalgia?) that hangs on to the last vestiges of a lost dream...

    But your comments on the Middle Eastern attachment to a genre not of its own making is a kind of testament to the continuing influence of French perfumery in the "very cradle of perfumery," as you call it. Of the chypre triad, only labdanum thrives in Oman, at least as a long-established species. There were wonderful pictures of it in The Mangalorean's article on Amouage which I found on the web, though they seem to mix up pictures of rockrose (labdanum) and the native Omani rose, the Jabal or Mountain Rose.

    I wrote some speculation on "modern" (oakmossless or near-oakmossless) chypres in my own blog, wondering if the resinous nature of propolis, found in beeswax, wasn't becoming a fairly common substitution for the moss notes of traditional chypres: a resinous element minus the bitterness. Here's the link: http://www.basenotes.net/entries/659...Out-Beeswax-In.

    Thanks again for the link to your blog. I took a look at the French-language version of your article, and as a language teacher, I can't help wondering whether you write your originals in English or French and then translate them (or have them translated) into the other... You don't have to say, of course, but I am curious...




    Last edited by JaimeB; 22nd April 2010 at 02:54 PM.
    Yr good bud,

    JaimeB

    "Why spend life seeking that which does not satisfy? Why remain a slave, when freedom waits? Let your life shine; illumine the world with your truth!"

    My Wardrobe
    My Reviews

    Fiat justitia ruat cælum.

    Let justice be done, even if the sky should fall.

    Lucius Calpurnius Piso Caesoninus

    Qui nihil potest sperare, desperet nihil.
    Let him who can hope for nothing despair of nothing.

    Male irato ferrum committitur.
    It is an evil thing to arm an angry man.
    —Seneca

  28. #58

    Default Re: How much is perfume a French artifact?

    Jaime, I'm also a language teacher, as well as a translator, among other things (girl's gotta eat). Oddly enough, I've done all my writing career in French and only started writing directly in English with the blog -- and now it looks like the rest of my literary career is shaping up to be in English. I write in English then translate into French: for some reason it comes out more easily that way.

    I'll have a look at your blog post on bees wax: I never thought of it with that angle.

  29. #59

    Default Re: How much is perfume a French artifact?

    Quote Originally Posted by narcus View Post
    @ Zizanoides[/U]:



    There could be a problem because there is or has been yet another Montale business entity, Montale Montres (montres = French for watches), a company manufacturing and /or selling quartz watches. This company is on ‘The Black List of watchmakers' in Germany, a list that has also been published by Ebay Germany to warn buyers.[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Century Gothic][SIZE=3]Unfortunately, identical company and brand names can cause serious conflicts and even damages. Some of them cannot easily be solved, particularly when the
    entities are active or dimiciled in different countries.
    It could well be the same Montale that makes watches:
    http://oami.europa.eu/CTMOnline/Requ...etailCTM_NoReg

    And here is the current legit one:
    http://oami.europa.eu/CTMOnline/Requ...etailCTM_NoReg

    Edit: Nvm, the are using some bizarro coding that makes linking impossible. Just search Montale, the legit one is the first result and the questionable one is third.
    Last edited by Zizanioides; 22nd April 2010 at 05:57 PM.

  30. #60
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    Sugandaraja's Avatar
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    Default Re: How much is perfume a French artifact?

    Nice article, Carmen. Thanks to the delightful Hillaire here on Basenotes, I've been able to sample Amouage's Gold and Ubar, as well as a dozen or so vintage French fragrances, and I must say, Amouage really does capture classical French perfumery in spirit and content to a large degree. I have yet to try Jubilation, but I would not at all surprised to smell an old-school chypre in the line!

    Conversely, the two I've smelled remind me nothing at all of any of the oil-based Arabic fragrances I've tried, which were completely removed in style and content from these two Amouages, at least.

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