Code of Conduct
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 43
  1. #1
    N_Tesla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Center of the Universe; California.
    Posts
    4,599
    Blog Entries
    2

    Angry Email sent to: IFRA

    For what it is worth, I sent an email to the IFRA regarding my feelings about Oakmoss specifically and limitations or prohibitions of alleged alergins in fragrance. It may do no good but, wrongs continue if good persons fail to act. I would encourage you all to write an email as well suggesting discalimers rather than bans. Below is a copy of what I sent. If you google IFRA and go to thier web site you can send an email directly.

    Gentlemen: As a long time purchaser of fragrance products I must say that I am greatly dismayed by some of the reductions or banning of some substances which are vital to the very essence of certain genres of fragrance. I would like to know why Oakmoss, for example, is, after decades of use, suddenly so dangerous to the public. Good science does not a good substitute make for the informed right of choice on the part of the fragrance purchaser. If you must protect us use disclaimers as does the pharmaceutical industry regarding possible side effects. Your edicts would eliminate scents as the public has come to know them. If Oakmoss causes more than a rash I would like to see the scientific evidence. I am convinced that the effect on the fragrance industry and the purchasing public is disproportionate to industries where allergans are concerned.

    Sincerely,
    Last edited by N_Tesla; 3rd June 2010 at 04:03 AM.

  2. #2
    Dependent Le Grand Duc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Copenhagen
    Posts
    7,325

    Default Re: Email sent to: IFRA

    Word!

  3. #3

    Default Re: Email sent to: IFRA

    Amen! Cigarettes and alcohol are far more dangerous than oakmoss and no one is trying to ban either. If oakmoss had a huge lobby and legions of lawyers, everything would be different.

  4. #4
    Basenotes Institution
    Mimi Gardenia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Exactly Where I Should Be
    Posts
    16,437

    Default Re: Email sent to: IFRA

    Good on ya ,D !
    http://www.basenotes.net/threads/370...o-Profumo-Onda
    For sale. Carnal Flower and Vero Profumo Onda.

  5. #5
    Dependent Le Grand Duc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Copenhagen
    Posts
    7,325

    Default Re: Email sent to: IFRA

    Quote Originally Posted by MaatMama View Post
    Amen! Cigarettes and alcohol are far more dangerous than oakmoss and no one is trying to ban either.
    Exactly, that's what I've always said!

  6. #6
    Basenotes Institution
    Mimi Gardenia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Exactly Where I Should Be
    Posts
    16,437

    Default Re: Email sent to: IFRA

    It's not just oakmoss ,it's jasmine too, amongst others too. But you know, I don't think the people who decide all this ,care what we think or say.
    My two cents, there are worse things going on in this world right now ,like the oil spill ,which is still spewing, as I type. What on earth ( literally ) does oakmoss ,jasmine etc matter in perfumes......??
    i mean , the IFRA "have their knickers in a twist".
    Last edited by Mimi Gardenia; 3rd June 2010 at 05:47 AM.
    http://www.basenotes.net/threads/370...o-Profumo-Onda
    For sale. Carnal Flower and Vero Profumo Onda.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Email sent to: IFRA

    I applaud your initiative, N Tesla, and will follow suit, as I hope all BNers will.

    Quote Originally Posted by N_Tesla View Post
    Good science does not a good substitute make for the informed right of choice on the part of the fragrance purchaser. If you must protect us use disclaimers as does the pharmaceutical industry regarding possible side effects. Your edicts would eliminate scents as the public has come to know them. If Oakmoss causes more than a rash I would like to see the scientific evidence. I am convinced that the effect on the fragrance industry and the purchasing public is disproportionate to industries where allergans are concerned.
    This is an excellent and telling point; why aren't potentially harmful ingredients listed on cosmetics just like allergens on foods or warning labels on drugs? Informing the consumer is crucial to protecting yourself from any potential lawsuits that might arise over your product. In the unlikely occasion that oakmoss/jasmine/any other essential perfume ingredient caused a lawsuit the manufacturer would bear the full burden for not providing crucial information. To reject labeling in favor of an elaborate system of private regulations (one governed by the very manufacturers of the synthetics used to replace the now restricted naturals) is one of the many reasons I hold my semi-crack pot conspiracy theories on the IFRA!

    And the science? It's all the IFRA's science. They do their own in-house research and then fund a panel of experts to review the data. Amusingly, the standard suggested by the IFRA is almost always the one the experts come to agree on.
    Quote Originally Posted by MaatMama View Post
    Amen! Cigarettes and alcohol are far more dangerous than oakmoss and no one is trying to ban either. If oakmoss had a huge lobby and legions of lawyers, everything would be different.
    Oh but it does! It's just that those lobbyists are the same people who make up the IFRA. These regulations aren't being forced on the industry, the industry made them. And it's all voluntary so you couldn't combat it through the regular legislative means even if you had the resources.

  8. #8

    narcus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Königl. Preussen
    Posts
    4,581

    Default Re: Email sent to: IFRA

    I am afraid even tons of e-mail protests wouldn't cause more than a few amused smiles within the billion dollar global cartel.

    And yet - one up for initiative, Tesla!
    Last edited by narcus; 3rd June 2010 at 06:13 AM.
    'Il mondo dei profumi è un universo senza limiti: una fraganza puo rievocare sensazioni, luoghi, persone o ancora condurre in uno spazio di nuove dimensioni emozionali' L. V.

  9. #9
    Basenotes Institution
    Mimi Gardenia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Exactly Where I Should Be
    Posts
    16,437

    Default Re: Email sent to: IFRA

    Re. oakmoss- for interest's sake...
    http://www.perfumerflavorist.com/fra.../90265777.html
    http://www.basenotes.net/threads/370...o-Profumo-Onda
    For sale. Carnal Flower and Vero Profumo Onda.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Email sent to: IFRA

    What about sulfates in wines? Will they take all wines off the market? How silly and narrow is this?
    "No elegance is possible without it...perfume is a part of you." Gabrielle "Coco" Chanel
    Currently wearing: Rose Ambre by Fragonard

  11. #11
    Pollux's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    http://goo.gl/1zgdDl
    Posts
    3,849

    Default Re: Email sent to: IFRA

    Why can't we do some "fragrance activism"?

    I don't know if you can provide us with IFRA'S e-mail addres, but you might as well send it to me via PM so I can send them an e mail.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Email sent to: IFRA

    I can't imagine them having any objection to receiving emails from the concerned public.
    Stephen Weller, IFRA Director of Communications:
    [email protected]

    Mattias Vey, IFRA Science Director:
    [email protected]

    Please be polite as possible, these good people can help us a great deal.
    But a few questions that are worth posing:
    -Why does the IFRA target essential perfume ingredients (oakmoss, jasmine etc.) for review and restriction while placing no limits on hazardous chemicals that appear in their members' products? (strychnidin, xylene, ethylene glycol etc.)
    - Do the companies who produce the synthetics used to replace naturals have a conflict of interest when voting? What about the executive officers of the IFRA who are also employees of these same companies?
    -Doesn't the allocation of votes based on the percent of the IFRA's budget the company supplies amount to private "pay-to-play" politics?
    - The Melissa Oil ban was reversed; the three unpublished studies cited in establishing the ban were later revealed to contain no evidence of adverse human reactions. Why did the IFRA fund testing only to ignore the data? Why aren't these studies available for public review in case of a similar occurrence?
    -Why is the IFRA Swiss headquarters inside of Givaudan's (major fragrance manufacturer and IFRA vote holder) Geneva offices?
    -IFRA standards have marred or destroyed many of the artistically significant fragrances. That's not a question just a solid bone to pick.
    And we could go on and on . . .

  13. #13
    Basenotes Institution
    Mimi Gardenia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Exactly Where I Should Be
    Posts
    16,437

    Default Re: Email sent to: IFRA

    Zizanioides- fantastic questions and thanks for the email addresses too.
    http://www.basenotes.net/threads/370...o-Profumo-Onda
    For sale. Carnal Flower and Vero Profumo Onda.

  14. #14
    N_Tesla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Center of the Universe; California.
    Posts
    4,599
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default Re: Email sent to: IFRA

    I think some "fragrance activism" is more than appropriate. I would encourage all Base Notes members to write to the IFRA in order to have our voices heard. The greatest mistake we can make is to assume that our efforts will come to naught and thereby sit, complain to ourselves and do nothing. Apathy is our worst enemy. If the IFRA receive enough emails it will have an effect. Please take a few moments and send the IFRA an email.
    Last edited by N_Tesla; 4th June 2010 at 08:54 AM.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Email sent to: IFRA

    I would also suggest flooding the brands with letters about reformulations. The only thing that would get IFRA members to stand up is customer dissatisfaction.
    Stephen Weller, whom I met and interviewed, is well aware of the point of view of the online perfume community. In an open letter to Perfumer & Flavourist, I conveyed our concerns and suggested that the industry leverage our enthusiasm and knowledge to convey positive messaging about fragrance, to counteract the negative campaigns that scare them so...

  16. #16
    Basenotes Institution
    Mimi Gardenia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Exactly Where I Should Be
    Posts
    16,437

    Default Re: Email sent to: IFRA

    Quote Originally Posted by carmencanada View Post
    I would also suggest flooding the brands with letters about reformulations. The only thing that would get IFRA members to stand up is customer dissatisfaction.
    Stephen Weller, whom I met and interviewed, is well aware of the point of view of the online perfume community. In an open letter to Perfumer & Flavourist, I conveyed our concerns and suggested that the industry leverage our enthusiasm and knowledge to convey positive messaging about fragrance, to counteract the negative campaigns that scare them so...
    Carmencanada - I read that very interesting interview ! Thank you for doing so much .
    I have bombarded companies with emails but sometimes they don't reply. Chanel is one of those. P & G for Jean Patou was surprisingly one of the good ones who replied twice ,researched my questions re. Joyand took my concerns seriously. I really felt likethey were interested.
    Guerlain- well- they just give you standard issue replies most of the time . I write about reformulation issues etc and Ms Rousseau replies about how wonderful their customer service is ,how they value their customer and how to apply perfume !
    Last edited by Mimi Gardenia; 4th June 2010 at 02:15 PM.
    http://www.basenotes.net/threads/370...o-Profumo-Onda
    For sale. Carnal Flower and Vero Profumo Onda.

  17. #17
    ronni's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    185

    Default Re: Email sent to: IFRA

    Quote Originally Posted by N_Tesla View Post
    For what it is worth, I sent an email to the IFRA regarding my feelings about Oakmoss specifically and limitations or prohibitions of alleged alergins in fragrance. It may do no good but, wrongs continue if good persons fail to act. I would encourage you all to write an email as well suggesting discalimers rather than bans. Below is a copy of what I sent. If you google IFRA and go to thier web site you can send an email directly.

    Gentlemen: As a long time purchaser of fragrance products I must say that I am greatly dismayed by some of the reductions or banning of some substances which are vital to the very essence of certain genres of fragrance. I would like to know why Oakmoss, for example, is, after decades of use, suddenly so dangerous to the public. Good science does not a good substitute make for the informed right of choice on the part of the fragrance purchaser. If you must protect us use disclaimers as does the pharmaceutical industry regarding possible side effects. Your edicts would eliminate scents as the public has come to know them. If Oakmoss causes more than a rash I would like to see the scientific evidence. I am convinced that the effect on the fragrance industry and the purchasing public is disproportionate to industries where allergans are concerned.

    Sincerely,
    What a great letter. I wish I was so articulate!

  18. #18

    Default Re: Email sent to: IFRA

    Carmencanada, your Perfumer&Flavorist editorial was just terrific and I commend you on your efforts. Did you ever receive any replies from within the industry? My gut feeling is that you did not, and for the same reasons you and others suggest. Their attempts to corner the market on perfume ingredients by monopolizing the access and availability of them, with their boots firmly planted on the necks of the dependent, smaller essential oil businesses, is something that must be stopped.

    These divide-and-conquer tactics have been used by all the power-mad groups in history: religions, mafia, nazis, pharmaceutical companies, and now most of the larger corporations throughout the world. Yes, it may sound a tad alarmist, but the truth is the truth, and it is sometimes too horrifying to want to really believe. But facts are facts. We all are becoming more and more aware of the dangers that self-regulation in Corporatism can have on our societies. The individual may still have some leverage, but it must be large-scale to have any effect.

    It always starts with small things, doesn't it. First this, then that, then it escalates into a trend. I hope that we can garner more individual effort to do just as N Tesla has suggested, and continue to battle this pervasive devouring of independence. With little bites, they slowly consume our ability to have free choice in so many venues...lets not let them take over EVERY aspect of the fragrance industry too!

  19. #19
    N_Tesla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Center of the Universe; California.
    Posts
    4,599
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default Re: Email sent to: IFRA

    Pollux; Here is the web address where you can leave email to the IFRA.
    http://www.ifraorg.org/public/contact_ps




    Quote Originally Posted by Pollux View Post
    Why can't we do some "fragrance activism"?

    I don't know if you can provide us with IFRA'S e-mail addres, but you might as well send it to me via PM so I can send them an e mail.

  20. #20
    N_Tesla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Center of the Universe; California.
    Posts
    4,599
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default Re: Email sent to: IFRA

    I have not received a response to my email. If anyone else who sends the IFRA a message receives a reply please consider posting it.

  21. #21
    Basenotes Institution
    Mimi Gardenia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Exactly Where I Should Be
    Posts
    16,437

    Default Re: Email sent to: IFRA

    Quote Originally Posted by N_Tesla View Post
    Pollux; Here is the web address where you can leave email to the IFRA.
    http://www.ifraorg.org/public/contact_ps
    I have left a lengthy message . However, I have no confidence in being heard . Maybe if I were Bill Gates or Hilary Clinton, they might sit up and listen .
    http://www.basenotes.net/threads/370...o-Profumo-Onda
    For sale. Carnal Flower and Vero Profumo Onda.

  22. #22
    N_Tesla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Center of the Universe; California.
    Posts
    4,599
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default Re: Email sent to: IFRA

    Mimi Gardenia; Thanks for writing to them. The more who do, the more the impact will be.



    Quote Originally Posted by Mimi Gardenia View Post
    I have left a lengthy message . However, I have no confidence in being heard . Maybe if I were Bill Gates or Hilary Clinton, they might sit up and listen .

  23. #23
    kumquat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Lincoln, Nebraska
    Posts
    9,761
    Blog Entries
    100

    Default Re: Email sent to: IFRA

    We're mad as hell and we're not going to take this anymore!

  24. #24

    Default Re: Email sent to: IFRA

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/21ded0e2-6...44feabdc0.html

    Financial Times article criticizing the IFRA. Hooray public exposure!

  25. #25

    Default Re: Email sent to: IFRA

    Thanks for sharing this Zizanoides!

    With the new 43rd amendment regulations taking place this year, does anyone know if any additional reformulations have hit major fragrances since the beginning of the year? I.e., I know Mitsouko was reformulated in 2007, but will it be reformulated again this year?

  26. #26

    Default Re: Email sent to: IFRA

    It's hard to say. Sometimes reformulations will take place even before the amendments are publicly announced while other companies will hold off as long as possible. Sometimes this works out very well as in the case of Oakmoss, who's implementation date for existing formulas has been rolled back 3(?) times and is now set somewhere in 2011. Sadly, unless you find changes on the allergen listing on the back of the box or shell out the cash for a GC/MS analysis you can't say for certain.

  27. #27
    Basenotes Institution
    Mimi Gardenia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Exactly Where I Should Be
    Posts
    16,437

    Default Re: Email sent to: IFRA

    Thanks for the great article Zizanioides - great reading. I hope ,if anything, reformulations will happen to include 'new' oakmoss- one that complies with the IFRA .
    There is oakmoss now available that complies I believe.... http://www.perfumerflavorist.com/fra.../90265777.html

    I posted this earlier - this gives me hope ! I hope Guerlain can reformulate to add this kind of oakmoss ??
    http://www.basenotes.net/threads/370...o-Profumo-Onda
    For sale. Carnal Flower and Vero Profumo Onda.

  28. #28
    Basenotes Institution
    Mimi Gardenia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Exactly Where I Should Be
    Posts
    16,437

    Default Re: Email sent to: IFRA

    I got a reply from Stephen Weller who seems like a nice guy, to be honest.

    "Thank you for your email. I understand your frustration at the reformulations and the fact that some ingredients, old favourites, have been banned or restricted.

    The problem we have is that regulators have to do what their political leaders tell them through legislation. Over the past 30 to 40 years there has been a constant political and societal push to eliminate as much risk from peoples lives as possible. Allergic reactions to various materials are on the increase all over the world. However, allergic reactions to fragrances are on the decrease thanks largely to the industry getting together and developing its own set of Standards to ensure the safety of their products. As an industry we are consequently in a much better position than had we done nothing regarding potentially sensitizing materials being used. The entire industry could have been banned and there are still NGOs and political organisations who are campaigning for this.

    It gives us no pleasure to ban or retsrict materials and we spend a great deal of time, effort and money to assess materials and indeed defend many of them. However, if the science clearly shows a material as being a sensitizer, we have to react or the authorities will. By restricting and monitoring materials we have managed to keep many in use and avoid authiorities simply banning them outright.

    We do our best to keep the perfumer's pallette as large as possible, but we also have to balance the needs of society and the regulators.

    I hope this explanation of our activities and intentions has helped clarify our role for you."
    http://www.basenotes.net/threads/370...o-Profumo-Onda
    For sale. Carnal Flower and Vero Profumo Onda.

  29. #29

    Default Re: Email sent to: IFRA

    Thanks a lot, Mimi! Good to see a response, I'll post anything I get back.

    And I agree, Mr. Weller is a nice guy as I'm sure everyone is at the IFRA. It's important to remember not to vilify them as an evil organization (not that anyone was! but I like to remind myself) but a association founded with genuinely good intentions. The issue is the structuring of internal legislation and decision making and a Gordian interweaving with the corporate members, raising serious doubts about neutrality and producing bizarre results.

    "However, if the science clearly shows a material as being a sensitizer, we have to react or the authorities will. By restricting and monitoring materials we have managed to keep many in use and avoid authiorities simply banning them outright."

    There are many, many sensitizers and allergens in IFRA member products which are not regulated by that organization.

    Possible Allergens: Soy, Peanut Oil, Milk, Egg protein, (these are more common as oral allergens but skin reactions do occur, I assume these go into the cream-type products but it's anyone's guess), propylene glycol and associated chemicals
    Skin Irritants: Oxalic Acid and Tartaric acid (the chemical sting in nettles), Formic Acid (skin irritant found in fire ant and other insect bites), Valeric acid, Crotonaldehyde, Urea (chief component of urine, yum!), Resins: oleo-capsicum and paprika,
    Solvents: Turpentine, Xylene, Ethylene glycol (Anti-freeze), Petroleum ether, Naptha
    Bizarre/Dangerous Ingredients: Brucine (strychnine relative, symptoms of poisoning start at 2mg dose), Piperidine (PCP precursor)*
    . . .and these are just the ones I had written down from earlier, the list just goes on and on.

    Do these chemicals appear in concentrations that pose a risk to perfume user? Doubt it, but I'd believe that chili pepper and urine are much worse for your skin than oak moss. *steps off of soap box*
    *All ingredients from the IFRA January report
    Last edited by Zizanioides; 7th June 2010 at 10:15 PM.

  30. #30
    Thalia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Glendale, CA
    Posts
    530

    Default Re: Email sent to: IFRA

    Off-topic, but urea's actually great for your skin - it's an ingredient in a lot of therapeutic lotions for dry or sensitive skin for that very reason. Gross, however, if you think about it.

    I just have not heard about a wave of oakmoss-related death and destruction ... the stuff has been used in fragrances for around 100 years, hasn't it? Wouldn't we have noticed people keeling over before now?

Similar Threads

  1. Ingredients List by IFRA
    By EauxM in forum General Fragrance Discussion
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 16th January 2010, 07:43 PM
  2. Perfumers try to rebel against IFRA
    By sables in forum Male Fragrance Discussion
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 15th January 2010, 11:34 PM
  3. IFRA, How it should work, IMO
    By N_Tesla in forum General Fragrance Discussion
    Replies: 28
    Last Post: 18th November 2009, 11:10 AM
  4. Ifra
    By moreda in forum General Fragrance Discussion
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 4th June 2009, 07:12 AM
  5. IFRA regulation of ISO E Super
    By Minou2 in forum General Fragrance Discussion
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 5th November 2008, 05:19 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  



Loving perfume on the Internet since 2000