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Thread: Define "niche?"

  1. #61

    Default Re: Your Definition of Niche?

    Niche is everything I can't afford

  2. #62

    Default Re: Your Definition of Niche?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jojo Lapin X View Post
    What would you say Creed is, then? It seems to fall into none of your categories.
    Creed, by my definitions, is a former tailoring house pointing to its real pedigree as makers of clothing to the rich and famous, and modifying this history to market its fragrances, some of which are enjoyable.

    I guess it's in a league of its own.
    "No elegance is possible without it...perfume is a part of you." Gabrielle "Coco" Chanel
    Currently wearing: Rose Ambre by Fragonard

  3. #63

    Default Re: Your Definition of Niche?

    Quote Originally Posted by Primrose View Post
    Creed, by my definitions, is a former tailoring house pointing to its real pedigree as makers of clothing to the rich and famous, and modifying this history to market its fragrances, some of which are enjoyable.

    I guess it's in a league of its own.
    They, or some ancestors of theirs, made clothes, right? It seems to me this must make them a designer house.

  4. #64

    Default Re: Your Definition of Niche?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jojo Lapin X View Post
    They, or some ancestors of theirs, made clothes, right? It seems to me this must make them a designer house.
    The Creed company is no longer in the bespoke tailoring business and only making fragrance. This is unlike Chanel and Dior, who are still very much in the fashion business. Likewise, Hermes still make saddles/horse tack, leather goods, scarves and clothing, though the house had its start making horse tack for the rich in the 1830s.

    We need to have the_good_life chime in here to help.

    http://perfumedpolitics.blogspot.com...-pasts-of.html

    Here is another discussion on Basenotes:

    http://www.basenotes.net/threads/176...HOUSE-OF-CREED

    For the record, the named Comte d'Orsay in this thread was also never a perfumer, and this is all just advertising hype as the house was founded in 1908 by a group of European investors who wanted an aristocratic poster boy. It still says "since 1830" on the fragrance boxes.

    Check these references for the real history of Parfums D'Orsay:
    Nigel Groom, 2nd ed. "The Perfume Handbook."
    Ken Leach. "Perfume Presentations."
    Madeline Marsh. "Miller's Perfume Bottles: A Collector's Guide."

    I enjoy nice fragrances, but I can live without the hype.
    Last edited by Primrose; 5th February 2012 at 08:39 PM.
    "No elegance is possible without it...perfume is a part of you." Gabrielle "Coco" Chanel
    Currently wearing: Rose Ambre by Fragonard

  5. #65

    Default Re: Your Definition of Niche?

    Quote Originally Posted by Primrose View Post
    My personal definitions are as follows:

    Niche - a small (or relatively small), specialised, fragrance company focusing on limited production, limited advertising and artisanship. Focus is only on fragrance and fragrance products, such as candles. Examples are Parfums d'Empire, Serge Lutens and Histoires de Parfum.

    Fragrance house - large and perhaps well established with a *real* historical pedigree (no fake, fanciful "historical" background, fake founder or famous so-called patrons), these companies make only fragrance and fragrance products, which include toiletries and makeup (with a small collection of makeup accessories). Examples are Guerlain and Caron.

    Designer - produces fragrance, but not a part of the main line of products. Can include fashion (clothing, handbags, shoes, jewellery and watches), jewellery or leather goods. Examples are Hermes, Chanel, YSL, Dior, Cartier and Boucheron.

    Independent - very small fragrance artisans and companies with very limited production, perhaps using only fine, natural materials. Main focus is on artisanship and not commercialism. Examples are Anya McCoy, Liz Zorn/Siovohle, and Ayala Moriel.
    See, I used to think that was what niche is. Now I think it just means exclusive to the market; harder to find. I don't necessarily associate it with price, however the price usually comes with it. Some of the more outrageous priced fragrances, I consider them to be both niche and luxe. Where as, if they were available everywhere I wouldn't think of them as niche.

    My question is, where would fragrances like Cool Water, Aramis frags, YSL fall? I could be wrong, but I don't think any of them make clothing, jewelery, etc.. so that means they're not designer? Yet they're all readily available. So what category would they fall under?

  6. #66
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    Default Re: Your Definition of Niche?

    To me a inch company, is a company that makes scents based on their ideas regardless of the money spent. They strive to achieve their dream perfumes without compramise

  7. #67

    Default Re: Your Definition of Niche?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Cologneist View Post
    See, I used to think that was what niche is. Now I think it just means exclusive to the market; harder to find. I don't necessarily associate it with price, however the price usually comes with it. Some of the more outrageous priced fragrances, I consider them to be both niche and luxe. Where as, if they were available everywhere I wouldn't think of them as niche.

    My question is, where would fragrances like Cool Water, Aramis frags, YSL fall? I could be wrong, but I don't think any of them make clothing, jewelery, etc.. so that means they're not designer? Yet they're all readily available. So what category would they fall under?
    Cool Water - by Davidoff. Is this associated with the cigar company? If so, designer.

    Aramis- by Aramis of Estee Lauder - perfume/toiletry house, therefore fragrance house.

    YSL - by Yves Saint-Laurent - fashion house and therefore designer.
    "No elegance is possible without it...perfume is a part of you." Gabrielle "Coco" Chanel
    Currently wearing: Rose Ambre by Fragonard

  8. #68
    Dependent heperd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Your Definition of Niche?

    Was any consensus reached in this thread?

    Every 10 days this exact question is asked in a new thread and everyone always gives different answers.

    From Mirriam-Webster-a specialized market....

    Davidoff started with tobacco products, YSL is designer-clothes,jewelry, bags... , Aramis is made by Estee Lauder.
    Want to trade - Chanel Platinum Egoiste for Dior Eau Sauvage...
    http://www.basenotes.net/threads/394...82#post3308582

  9. #69

    Default Re: Your Definition of Niche?

    I think niche has -sadly- more to do with distribution and marketing than with quality and artistic value.

    I agree with Pollux in "I found some designers to be niche in terms of complexity, and some niche to be downright a mess. So I guess it does not have much to do with quality"

    I appreciate fragrances that have quality and artistic value, be them niche or not.

  10. #70

    Default Re: Your Definition of Niche?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Bark View Post
    This is why everybody is becoming more and more confused as to what niche is: the lines between niche(s) are blurring because there's simply more and more stuff on the market.
    Nah, it's called opportunism or wising up...

    Quote Originally Posted by MOONB View Post
    Privately owned, under $150 million a year profit, exclusively producing perfume & toiletries, and catering to a clientele that wants a specific "type" of smell, be it synthetic, natural, green, gourmand, whatever.
    One of the better definitions I've heard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Bartlett View Post
    When I describe myself as a niche perfumer, what I mean is that my fragrances are made by me, to my own specification. That my fragrances may be designed to meet the desires of a particular customer, but there are never any focus groups or marketing executives dictating that it must not offend anyone . . . and it emphatically isn't made by one of the very small number of very large corporations who make the great majority of the world's fragrance products.

    Reading this thread I wonder whether I should stop doing so though, as I'm not sure my definition is widely shared!
    Oh it's shared, alright!

    Quote Originally Posted by G.303 View Post
    The Armani Prive Collection is Niche.....Limited availability is a main factor for sure!!!
    You've obviously fallen victim to the illusions that the corporations are currently perpetuating...

    Quote Originally Posted by Primrose View Post
    Fragrance house - large and perhaps well established with a *real* historical pedigree (no fake, fanciful "historical" background, fake founder or famous so-called patrons), these companies make only fragrance and fragrance products, which include toiletries and makeup (with a small collection of makeup accessories). Examples are Guerlain and Caron.
    But that's a generic term. Going by your definition, surely it should be Classic House?

    Quote Originally Posted by GelbeDomino View Post
    I think niche has -sadly- more to do with distribution and marketing than with quality and artistic value.
    No, people just seem hell-bent on convincing themselves that they've obtained a piece of luxury, while having orgasms over excessive packaging and bottle designs. Based on some of the definitions in this thread, any corporation or designer house can 'play the game' in order to be considered niche (and they already have, in case you haven't noticed).

  11. #71

    Default Re: Your Definition of Niche?

    Quote Originally Posted by Primrose View Post
    My personal definitions are as follows:
    Niche - a small (or relatively small), specialised, fragrance company focusing on limited production, limited advertising and artisanship. Focus is only on fragrance and fragrance products, such as candles. Examples are Parfums d'Empire, Serge Lutens and Histoires de Parfum.
    I agree with that

    Quote Originally Posted by Primrose View Post
    Fragrance house - large and perhaps well established with a *real* historical pedigree (no fake, fanciful "historical" background, fake founder or famous so-called patrons), these companies make only fragrance and fragrance products, which include toiletries and makeup (with a small collection of makeup accessories). Examples are Guerlain and Caron.
    Yet Guerlain is part of LVMH, the largest luxury goods conglomerate in the world . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Primrose View Post
    Designer - produces fragrance, but not a part of the main line of products. Can include fashion (clothing, handbags, shoes, jewellery and watches), jewellery or leather goods. Examples are Hermes, Chanel, YSL, Dior, Cartier and Boucheron.
    So I think you’d have to put all the LVMH brands in here along with Acqua di Parma.

    I’m also a little uncomfortable with Hermes (another LVMH brand btw) being here on the grounds that, unlike most designer fragrances, the perfumer is allowed full artistic freedom - no focus groups. That would be a very important distinction to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Primrose View Post
    Independent - very small fragrance artisans and companies with very limited production, perhaps using only fine, natural materials. Main focus is on artisanship and not commercialism. Examples are Anya McCoy, Liz Zorn/Siovohle, and Ayala Moriel.
    Agreed, which I think makes me independent and niche by your definition - by my definition I’d add tiny!
    A person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person.”
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation I’m happy to quote: if you want free advice, that’s what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  12. #72

    Default Re: Your Definition of Niche?

    For me, niche is a kind of fragrance (actually more than one), so if a designer markets one like that, I think of it as niche-like. If we take the "drug store" stuff out of the picture, then niche is the opposite of typical designer stuff being sold today. However, I think of the best vintage designer frags as being on a higher level than today's niche, generally-speaking, obviously.

  13. #73
    tott's Avatar
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    Default Re: Your Definition of Niche?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Bartlett View Post
    ...Hermes (another LVMH brand btw)...
    Hermès is still "only" Hermès. LVMH tried to buy up Hermès recently but failed; In France they have laws protecting family businesses from hostile takeovers.

  14. #74

    Default Re: Define "niche?"

    everything not well known on basenotes is niche.

  15. #75

    Default Re: Define "niche?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikelap View Post
    everything not well known on basenotes is niche.
    ...maybe in Neverland...?

  16. #76

    Default Re: Your Definition of Niche?

    Quote Originally Posted by tott View Post
    Hermès is still "only" Hermès. LVMH tried to buy up Hermès recently but failed; In France they have laws protecting family businesses from hostile takeovers.
    Oops - I stand corrected. Though as you imply with the quotations Hermès is quite big enough and diverse enough in it’s own right to qualify as Designer, they do have a rather different policy towards creative arts than most.
    A person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person.”
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation I’m happy to quote: if you want free advice, that’s what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  17. #77

    Default Re: Your Definition of Niche?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pollux View Post
    Isn't it that an industry organization I cannot recall its name states that it means it is sold in less than 500 stores worldwide (or was it nationally)?
    At one time, the Fragrance Foundation set the criteria for niche Fifi award winners at 500 doors or less, iirc. I use their old definition in my thinking about what makes something niche.

    It looks like there have been changes recently though. The numbers are different, and there's a new category called Indie.

    From their website now:

    INDIE: sold in 1 to 50 doors (actual # of stores) in the U.S. including online
    LUXE: department and specialty stores - more than 250 doors
    NOUVEAU NICHE: artisanal brand that is distributed/owned by a large company – up to
    250 doors
    BROAD APPEAL: mass merchandisers—drugstores/chains
    SPECIALTY BRAND: one retailer and/or brand name in one retailer
    DIRECT TO CONSUMER: on-line/catalog/door-to-door
    Last edited by socalwoman; 7th February 2012 at 09:55 PM.

  18. #78

    Default Re: Define "niche?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Trauerkraut View Post
    ...maybe in Neverland...?
    Well, I'll change my answer to there is no niche at all then

  19. #79
    Dependent Birdboy48's Avatar
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    Default Re: Your Definition of Niche?

    Quote Originally Posted by socalwoman View Post
    The numbers are different, and there's a new category.
    Golly, let me guess which of the categories you listed might be the new one....

    Might it be this one, perhaps ?

    NOUVEAU NICHE: artisanal brand that is distributed/owned by a large company – up to 250 doors
    Which is simply "code speak" for what should rightly be called the LVMH category ?

    There's no doubt about it : the influence of the LVMH phenomenon has certainly muddied the whole concept of what once was thought of as artisan-type exclusivity.

  20. #80

    Default Re: Your Definition of Niche?

    Quote Originally Posted by Birdboy48 View Post
    Golly, let me guess which of the categories you listed might be the new one....

    Might it be this one, perhaps ?



    Which is simply "code speak" for what should rightly be called the LVMH category ?

    There's no doubt about it : the influence of the LVMH phenomenon has certainly muddied the whole concept of what once was thought of as artisan-type exclusivity.
    Sorry for the confusion. The new category is Indie.

  21. #81
    Dependent Birdboy48's Avatar
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    Default Re: Your Definition of Niche?

    Quote Originally Posted by socalwoman View Post
    The new category is Indie.
    I suspect it says something that they've found a need for this category, but at the same time it's really encouraging to see that independents now have this sort of formal vehicle for recognition.

    I mean, a person could technically have as little as a single online outlet, and still qualify for this award ?

    It will be interesting to see who ends up picking up the prize in this category.

    And if their products will need to pass through formal testing to assure confirmation to IFRA standards before they are eligible. The expense of which could make things complicated for any number of small contenders, I imagine.

  22. #82

    Default If Tom Ford Private Blend is considered niche, then...

    Should Chanel's and Dior's exclusive line be considered niche as well? Tom Ford is designer, just like Chanel and Dior, and if Tom Fords exclusive line is niche, should Chanels and Diors?

  23. #83
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    Default Re: If Tom Ford Private Blend is considered niche, then...

    Quote Originally Posted by JonnyLeMale View Post
    Should Chanel's and Dior's exclusive line be considered niche as well?
    If the titled is in fact thought of in that way, then these two exclusive lines should also definitely be IMO.

  24. #84
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    Default Re: If Tom Ford Private Blend is considered niche, then...

    I always considered them niche in my head...

    same with Guerlain, Hermes...I feel like after a certain price they're more niche because they appeal to only to select people with cash for fragrance.

  25. #85
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    Default Re: If Tom Ford Private Blend is considered niche, then...

    I do agree with you, all designer brand exclusive line I consider niche. Dior, Chanel, Tom Ford, Guerlain, Hermes to name a few.

  26. #86

    Default Re: If Tom Ford Private Blend is considered niche, then...

    Quote Originally Posted by starshipvelcro View Post
    I always considered them niche in my head...

    same with Guerlain, Hermes...I feel like after a certain price they're more niche because they appeal to only to select people with cash for fragrance.
    +1, I agree

  27. #87
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    Default Re: If Tom Ford Private Blend is considered niche, then...

    Quote Originally Posted by Oupavoc View Post
    I do agree with you, all designer brand exclusive line I consider niche. Dior, Chanel, Tom Ford, Guerlain, Hermes to name a few.
    Same.

  28. #88

    Default Re: If Tom Ford Private Blend is considered niche, then...

    Why would Tom Ford Private Blend be considered niche? If Lady Gaga put out a limited edition product, that wouldn't make her an indie artist. It just means some products are marketed differently.

  29. #89

    Default Re: If Tom Ford Private Blend is considered niche, then...

    All designer.

  30. #90

    Default Re: If Tom Ford Private Blend is considered niche, then...

    That's why slowly I've been defining niche as a perfume made in unique, daring and non-mainstream blends with high quality ingredients.
    for swap/sale:



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