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Thread: Ambrox DL

  1. #1

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    Default Ambrox DL

    Everything I read about ambrox talks about how strong this chemical is, but to me it seems very weak. Am I anosmic? What is your experience with these ambergris molecules, do they seem strong or weak to you.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Ambrox DL

    Have you tried diluting it and sniffing? Some aromachemicals are so strong that they cause immediate adaptation and you really don't smell anything from the pure stuff. Of course, it's also possible that you're anosmic.
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  3. #3

    Default Re: Ambrox DL

    I find the smell of ambergris to be very subtle, but very distinct. It's perhaps the very fact that it's so hard to describe that makes it so compelling. I'm awaiting the maturation of my ambergris "absolute" to see if more aroma develops.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Ambrox DL

    I find it pretty subtle at 1%, certainly very close to the skin, but it kind of "blooms" over time, and lasts ages on the skin compared to natural ambergris which seems to disappear within minutes.

    Body heat really seems to amplify this one. If I'm not mistaken it's used in Diptyque Tam Dao (to slightly sickening effect). I tried this out once on my chest and it was only later on in the day after heating up from walking that I noticed myself being enveloped in this "aura" of scent.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Ambrox DL

    The real benefit comes less from the direct scent than from its impact within a blend: itís main use is as a fixative and diffuser.

    To test this, try making a blend (anything you fancy but donít make it too simple), splitting it in two evenly and adding a little ambrox to one half and the same amount of plain DPG to the other. Leave the two sealed for a few hours while you do something else, then put a drop of each onto a blotter (label them both) and have a sniff of each. Note your impressions - whether you can tell them apart or not and if so what the difference is.

    Now leave the blotters together for 10 minutes, get some fresh air, and repeat. Do the same after 20 mins, 30, 60, 3 hours, 6, 12 and 24. If the sent is still detectable, wait another day and repeat again - continue until you canít smell anything on either blotter.

    Youíll also find that any given fixative will have a bigger effect on some materials than others . . . so using them well is complex, but then thatís half the fun.
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  6. #6

    Default Re: Ambrox DL

    Is there any REAL difference between ambroxan and ambrox DL?

  7. #7

    Default Re: Ambrox DL

    Ambrox DL is:
    3a,6,6,9a-tetramethyl-2,4,5,5a,7,8,9,9b-octahydro-1H-benzo[e][1]benzofuran - also called amber naphthofuran or Cetalox.

    Ambroxan is:
    (3aR,5aS,9aS,9bR)-3a,6,6,9a-tetramethyl-2,4,5,5a,7,8,9,9b-octahydro-1H-benzo[e][1]benzofuran - also called amber ether, amberol, ambermox, amberoxide and orcanox.

    You can see from the two full chemical names that they are very similar, but different molecules. Crucially the Ambroxan molecule is chiral which commonly makes quite a big difference to the olfactory performance, but makes them more expensive to produce.

    One of the reasons natural products are often more interesting is that most natural aromatic molecules are chiral - usually l = laevo or left-handed, while many synthetics are either a mix of the l and d (dextro or right handed) isomers or just d.
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  8. #8
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    Default Re: Ambrox DL

    Ambroxan is a very diffusive, powerful, dry, powdery note. Very effective in small quantities (not so good in larger ones; too dry and animalic).
    I always thought Cetalox and Ambrox DL are two different products (in fact I remember diffusion/volume diagrams I saw somewhere with the two having distinctively different ways of "announcing" themselves) but a casual survey proves they are just synonyms as Chris says (a bit of clarification on this is welcomed).
    In any case Princeok, keep in mind that compared to ambroxan, cetalox can be used in larger quantities without damaging the composition (in fact it makes it more substantial), it is a more complex odour and it requires more time to reach its olfactory "peak".
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  9. #9

    Default Re: Ambrox DL

    Ambrox DL and Cetalox smell different to me, have different strengths, and don't last the same.. Am I missing something? Is it a different isomer mix?

  10. #10

    Default Re: Ambrox DL

    They are a bit different. Check out the Firmenich data sheets (on their site). Cetalox has a min. purity of 96% compared to Ambrox DL which has 85%. They look different too - Cetalox being an easy to handle crystalline substance and Ambrox DL a more awkward slightly pasty solid. Firmenich describe Ambrox DL as "woody, ambery" and Cetalox as "ambery". They also seem to imply that Cetalox is more powerful.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Ambrox DL

    Oh, and cast your mind back to this post for further details. You had forgotten already? You should be taking more notes Nizan. Tsk tsk.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Ambrox DL

    Ambrox DL is 70% Cetalox 30% Firmenich captive Cachalox. Cetalox is well, Cetalox . Cachalox is similar to the ambergris family, but more woody which of course gives Ambrox DL its woody profile.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Ambrox DL

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    Oh, and cast your mind back to this post for further details. You had forgotten already? You should be taking more notes Nizan. Tsk tsk.
    Tsk tsk indeed. Maybe I should find a way to organize note on my computer.
    Ambrox DL has that nice creamy impression I mentioned in another post (and I called it marine there.. but it's actually a bit fruity to me now). Why won't they just release Cachalox?

  14. #14

    Default Re: Ambrox DL

    Quote Originally Posted by Nizan View Post
    Tsk tsk indeed. Maybe I should find a way to organize note on my computer.
    Ambrox DL has that nice creamy impression I mentioned in another post (and I called it marine there.. but it's actually a bit fruity to me now). Why won't they just release Cachalox?
    Because Firmenich is a canny company and will make more money by keeping it as a captive; for now. This is how they work, and did the same with Hedione, and Ambroxan.

    So, your "marine" descriptor was in fact "creamy….and a bit fruity " sigh

  15. #15

    Default Re: Ambrox DL

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post

    So, your "marine" descriptor was in fact "creamy….and a bit fruity " sigh
    He did say "animalic". Cream is animal, as opposed to mineral or vegetable. Anyway the problem seems to have been solved, probably faster than if he hadn't said anything.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Ambrox DL

    Don't see how the problem was solved, as it wasn't addressed. If, indeed, there was a problem.

    To divide every descriptor into just three groups (animal, vegetable and mineral) seems to be to be somewhat naive, and less than helpful. If I described something as "creamy" I would not mean animalic, and I doubt that you would understand it as such.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Ambrox DL

    David, you've had years of professional experience. It's not easy for us to put words to unfamiliar scents. Nizan said he didn't know how to describe it, so I was trying to read him in terms of overlapping cloudy concepts, not precise associations.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Ambrox DL

    Whatever.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Ambrox DL

    Indeed the problem was solved for me. When I was playing around and realized the buttery/cheesy chemicals are getting close (though not quite there - I was thinking of maybe something pineapple and butyric, but I'm not sure I have something like this). The next thought which occured to me was "ho no, how David's gonna react!"
    Anyhow, now I have a direction to explore. It's strange how Ambrox DL has an almost edible (salty) quality to it - maybe I'll explore some mushroomy materials next.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Ambrox DL

    Quote Originally Posted by Nizan View Post
    It's strange how Ambrox DL has an almost edible (salty) quality to it - maybe I'll explore some mushroomy materials next.
    many components of ambergris tincture are not available. But some are, for example Sclareolide (makes up several % of the volatiles in aged tincture)
    It is described as also having mossy, mushroom nuances.

  21. #21

    Default Re: Ambrox DL

    Quote Originally Posted by BAGreat View Post
    Ambrox DL is 70% Cetalox 30% Firmenich captive Cachalox.
    is it

  22. #22

    Default Re: Ambrox DL

    Isn't Sclareolide the starting material in the synthesis of Ambroxan? Isolated from Clary Sage absolute.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Ambrox DL

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    Isn't Sclareolide the starting material in the synthesis of Ambroxan? Isolated from Clary Sage absolute.
    exactly. Well actually it's made from Sclareol from Clary Sage. So Clary Sage does not contain Sclareolide.
    Have a look at the scheme:

    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sclareol

  24. #24

    Default Re: Ambrox DL

    Thanks for that Timon; I was a tad confused (yes I know; sometimes it happens).

  25. #25

    Default Re: Ambrox DL

    mixing up Sclareolide and Sclareol is generally not considered a sufficient indicator or evidence of mental confusion, for most people at least

  26. #26

    Default Re: Ambrox DL

    You're very kind.

  27. #27

    Default Re: Ambrox DL

    I've been curious about this one for a whlie.. Maybe I'll try to get a sample somehow..

  28. #28

    Default Re: Ambrox DL

    Yes.

  29. #29

    Default Re: Ambrox DL

    Quote Originally Posted by BAGreat View Post
    Yes.
    are you refering to the Cachalox statement ? If so, do you have a reliable source ?

  30. #30

    Default Re: Ambrox DL

    Quote Originally Posted by 'Timon View Post
    are you refering to the Cachalox statement ? If so, do you have a reliable source ?
    Yes Timon, my source is from Arcadi Boix Camps. He has been began working for Firmenich in 1975.

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