Lol history with no proof.... very interested in seeing this thread develop.
So there is tons of discussion as to Creed's history in the perfume world. What I find interesting is there are all these papers and claims that have been produced as proof, however I have yet to see more than one vintage bottle. The closest thing I could find while searching was an image of a bottle of Olivier Edc (which was split by a few memebers including myself) But that bottle I think only dates back to the early 70's. Does anyone know of the existence of bottles dating back even further? Apparently they have been making perfume well before that.
Lol history with no proof.... very interested in seeing this thread develop.
My Youtube Review Channel: www.youtube.com/cutlasssupremesl
I want pics, i want pics, i want pics
Seriously, this is a good point. I mean ancient Carons, Guerlain etc keep popping up from time to time but I havent seen an old creed either.
Nope, and I'm pretty sure they do not exist. Creed was a tailoring house and none of its Royal Warrants or adverts or mentions in the press of the day refer to anything but that. If they did make perfumes in the pre-Olivier era, for which there is not one piece of evidence outside Creed's own PR, they kept it a well-guarded secret. Which is strange as any firm who supplied anything to any royalty or nobility exploited that fact profusely in its advertising (fair enough since the nobles often didn't feel obliged to pay their bills). Perhaps the perfumes were so awful they were too embarrassed ever to mention them .
I think that the Creed marketing machine is very effective at kidology. I've never seen a vintage Creed bottle either, that's because I suspect there aren't any. I'd love Creed to prove us all wrong.
The other thing to bear in mind is that the Basenotes community is full of collectors who track down the rare and unusual. Does it not strike you as unusual that not one of us has a vintage Creed bottle?
In a world where people smell bad, it is the personal responsibility of every Basenoter to improve the world one SotD at a time...
Here are the pictures of the Olivier Edc I was referring to. If we can get the member (I wont name any names) who purchased this to post some more pictures I am sure we can get a better view of it.
Last edited by Captcrunch; 29th September 2010 at 07:16 PM.
I've suspected this for the past couple of years. I think there's been some serious backdating going on too. Orange Spice, what is it 1950 or something? Yeah right. Yet Kouros, which was a revolutionary scent came out in 1981? I think the Pierre Bourdon connection has a lot to do with this. He created Kouros and I would suspect had something to do with Orange Spice as well. I haven't smelled Orange Spice in a little while, but I could swear I smelled aromachemicals that weren't even around in 1950.
Does this make sense?
1950- Orange Spice is created.
1971-Pierre Bourdon becomes a perfumer.
1981-Pierre Bourdon creates Kouros (which smells similar to Orange Spice).
1985-Green Irish Tweed is created.
1988-Cool Water is created by Pierre Bourdon (which smells similar to Green Irish Tweed).
2003-Pierre Bourdon creates Montblanc Individuel.
2005-Original Santal is created (which smells like Individuel).
The word from those in the know is that Pierre Bourdon definitely had a hand in Green Irish Tweed. If this is true, then it establishes a relationship between him and the house of Creed. It then makes a lot of sense to see Creed releasing higher quality versions of scents that he created for other houses. I would like to know for sure if Green Irish Tweed actually was released in 1985 as the Creed press states or if it wasn't later. I want to know when the first bottle of GIT was actually available for purchase by the masses and was it before 1988? Does anyone have a bottle from before that time?
Then when one looks at the timetable with respect to Pierre Bourdon's relationship with Creed, the dating of Orange Spice as something from the 50's is problematic. I would bet a lot of money against Orange Spice ever being made prior to the 1980s. I could be wrong, but I doubt it. I've thought about this a lot. It's unfortunate, because I really like the scents of Creed. My Creeds are among the best scents in my wardrobe. Green Irish Tweed is stunning, regardless of how it came to be. I just don't like BS.
To the OP: A very good point!
My understanding is that Creed, in an unparalleled act of patriotism, paid handsomly for collection of all their old bottles to be melted and used to aid the war effort against the rebelling American Colonies, and did so again for the War of 1812.
There. That explains why no old bottles are available.
'Those who grow too big for their pants will be exposed in the end'--anon
I think Creed's marketing is probably the best you can imagine. The whole idea of "awesome niche house with XXL french history and extraordinary ingredients and millésime and once again millésime and vintage and once more double vintage, famous customers and blah blah blah". -------------------------
It works!! It works perfectly!!! It sells like crazy!!! Thank god the fragrances can be sprayed and are not too bad, LOL. But this is marketing done perfectly. Is a Ferrari the best car out there? Definitely not, but Ferrari want's you to believe just that.
Just don't give a rip. The Easter Bunny is a myth too, but lotsa fun! Creed's my favorite house. I can tolerate some creative advertising.
In todays world I dont think a company, of any nature, could keep a lie going that long. I find hard to believe that most of the claims are untrue, perhaps there are rumors and exaggerations but not everything. One thing is to master marketing techniques and a whole different things is to use names, last names in an untruthful context, that is deceiving and false advertising.. if in fact Creed spread the stories around. I am not defending nor attacking the house but it is not that easy to make up stories and capitalize on those rumors without having your soul sued with passion.
The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education.
According Creed site:
Two and a half centuries of tradition
The House of Creed was founded in 1760 when James Henry Creed opened his first shop in London. It rapidly became a favourite of the aristocracy and soon Queen Victoria appointed Creed as an official supplier to the royal household.
Eventually Creed was adopted by all the courts of Europe: Napoléon III and Empress Eugénie of France, Emperor Franz-Joseph and Empress Sissi of Austro-Hungary, Queen Christina of Spain.
In 1854, under the patronage of Empress Eugénie, the House of Creed moved to Paris where it established a firm reputation for the rare beauty, quality and exclusivity of its fragrances.
Today Olivier Creed, direct descendant of James Henry Creed, and now his son Erwin continue this great tradition.
As the company’s “Créateur Pafumeur” Olivier travels extensively to personally seek out the purest rose essences from Bulgaria, Turkey or Morocco as well as Italian jasmine, irises from Florence, Tuberose from India or genuine Parma violets.
Creed also manufactures many of its own essences using the traditional infusion technique – a process now abandoned as too costly by the modern perfume industry, but one which enables Creed to maintain the superior quality and originality of its fragrances.
Wherever appropriate Olivier Creed insists on using the highest quality natural essences in preference to the cheaper synthetic alternatives that are used increasingly by large perfume companies.
The components are then weighed, mixed, macerated and filtered, all by hand, before being blended to create extraordinary fragrances which are shipped to only the finest department stores and specialist retailers worldwide.
So it`d be able to find vintage creed bottles and ads as the ones you can find from Guerlain at web.
I dont know Rick, I wish I have the answer but... I have the feeling the truth is somehow in between and not a X File
The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education.
Sometimes I'd like to believe that Creed really handed some special fragrances in very special flacons to very special people in the past. No ads, no bottles for the public, just ROYALS and SECRECY.
I remember seeing all the older "Olivier Creed" edt/edc bottles on eBay, but they seem to be from at earliest 1975, as that is when Olivier became the master parfumeuer of the CREED house.
I also remember seeing an older style flacon, shaped like the current ones, but with a very different label and much different packaging. The flacon was named "Herbe Marine", which no sdoubt must be the father of EROLFA, just as Olivier CREED EDT/EDC are the mossier fathers of Selection Verte.
But behing the Olivier EDT/EDC, and herbe marine, I've seen no bottles from prior, I'm guessing this will be part of an upcoming CREED exhibit, displaying some vintage bottles and vintage lables from pre-ww2. Or even shortly after ww2 (1st orange Spice flacon/bottle) that would be a great exhibit.
I give them a bit of scorn for obviuously running up claims on their 18th century and 19th century business, which seemed to be predominantly tailoring/glove making, with Perfumery only an ancillary businees. But along with that scorn for their marketing comes such a great appreciation for the juices themselves, which best the competition in 2 regards:
1. Depth and breadth of range
--CREED literally has a catalog that spans more genres than any other fragrance house, and seems to have bested all competition in nearly every genre besides the oriental genres.
2. Ingredient/blend quality across the range
--Sure, there are synthetic hellwaters like Original Santal, but the quality across all the aforementioned genres is so high, and their level of taste is so indicative to western european class/refinement/discretion/sensibility, as to only be approached by Maitre Parfumeur Et Gantier and Parfums De Nicolai, imho...neither of which spans the genre gamut like CREED.
I give them the benefit of the doubt, that they will be able to produce an exhibit with at least a minimal amount of proof as to their pre-70's product range, packaging, label&flacon design and such, in due time, without resorting to some trash about "destroyed in the war", or other such excuses. The exhibits should be interesting.
And of course, I am eager to see if any basenoters, who also browse some francophone perfume boards, can produce any more pictures of pre-70's flacons/bottles.
BN sales: http://www.basenotes.net/threads/300...avidoff-Bombay.
Off-BN sales (super rare CREED): http://flacon.ambaric.net/viewtopic.php?t=95
There isn't any vintage Creeds... Everybody on fr boards know that Creed is a liar marketing house. Their perfumes smell so modern that it's ridiculous to think they were created centuries ago...And of course, I am eager to see if any basenoters, who also browse some francophone perfume boards, can produce any more pictures of pre-70's flacons/bottles.
( and sorry for this bad english)
Synthetic Hellwater?! That's hilarious! I have a brand new tester of it!
I personally don't think many of their male scents got much traction at all until GIT. I would really wonder how much of a presence they really had at the retail level prior to that. I get the sense the 80s is when they really came on strong and got into some of the high end US department stores.
I have always been curious about old bottles and have mixed feelings whether it's all made up or not. I tend to think their scent sales were very low until the 80s, and it doesn't surprise me that no one in here has any old bottles.
I am quite curious. Are there any older Basenoters who have any memory whatsoever of Creed product prior to GIT in the '80s? Anybody in US or Europe who remembers seeing Creed fragrances for sale in any store?
Last edited by StylinLA; 29th September 2010 at 08:59 PM.
There is a new Warrant from Queen Victoria online at the Creed Website since yesterday...but like everything seen before, it's only for the "tailors and habit makers" Creed, no mention of perfume at all.
Creed's claim of having provided perfume to the Queen is certainly not backed up by the Warrant, but of course they say:
http://blog.creedboutique.com/wp-con...n-Victoria.jpgOver the years, CREED provided the palace items ranging from equestrian attire and equipment, for example, riding jackets and fine leather boots, an original business of CREED, to superb fragrance, including Fleurs de Bulgarie for Queen Victoria — a fragrance available to the discerning public today.
I found another lovely quote:
Oliver Creed, self-proclaimed "master perfumer", said in an interview he knew he had created something special with GIT because the client he made it for was actually happy with the scent.
http://www.sniffapaloozamagazine.com...er15issue.htmlIn any event, Green Irish Tweed was a custom fragrance for a private client before
it was offered to the discerning public, so I knew it was something special as the client was always very happy.
Last edited by hedgehog; 29th September 2010 at 09:44 PM.
You can check the dates of creation of some Creed http://www.osmotheque.fr/parfums/parfums.php ("Marque"> "C" > "Creed")
Osmotheque is an official perfume museum...
Somebody's gotta ask the Queen, I guess.
I saw a bottle in my Great Grandpa's attic from 1856, but they tore down the house, so I can't show you a picture, sorry.
My current hypothesis after years of consideration and reading (mostly of research by others):
Creed is an old tailoring house of note (plenty of evidence for this) which quite possibly supplied some unremarkable fragrance in stardard apothocary jars made by a local chemist/perfumer as many tailors did (no evidence for this).
The tailoring business was suffering in the 60s-70s despite a genuinely long and distinguished history so O. Creed decided to "emphasise" the perfume history and take the business in that direction.
They proceded to make some damn good fragrances and market them in a way which is at best very misleading (and some people I have read consider to be downright deceitful).
They then try to control the discussion of these possible untruths on the internet by various means while simultaneously not producing evidence for their perfume history (plenty of evidence for this).
Lol. Just now while looking at that old Olivier Creed bottle in the picture above, I noticed the price tag on the box-- $8.95.
A princely sum...
Olivier Creed for sure is pure genius. In this way or that way. LOL.
This is hugely amusing, made even better by the fact that it seems emintently plausible - yes, someone, somewhere would certainly own or at least have seen pictures of vintage bottles if there were any to be had, limited distribution or not. Hilarious!
I am not in the market for Creed fragrances, but this somehow makes me feel less worried about the discontinuation of Angelique Encens..
I think back when people were evolving from apes, the last Missing Link Olivier swiped all the vintage bottles to keep his furry coat smelling nice.
So, find the Missing Link Olivier, and you will find the vintage Creed bottles....
Kerosene fragrance samples and bottles here: www.min.com
"Probably the only truly great fragrance produced by this firm, it was composed in 1985 by Pierre Bourdon, who three years later rehashed a similar structure in the hugely successful and endlessly imitated Cool Water. Green Irish Tweed feels as good as it ever did, with the brilliantly imaginative accord of Ambroxan (metallic amber), dihydroxymyrcenol (gray citrus), and octin esters (green violet leaf) sweetened by a touch of apple up top and sandalwood below. Brilliant, legible, perfectly balanced, immediately recognizable."
This, from a chemist who ought to know what he's smelling, renders Creed's claims that they use only the finest natural ingredients categorically untrue. Calling for truth in perfume advertising is a little like calling for truth in Hollywood film-making, but I find Creed's blatant fabrication of history crosses the line into tastelessness. Another thing: for a company based in France, with Erwin Creed presumably a native speaker, they seem to have a lot of trouble with the language, accents, proper use of adjectives, etc. Shouldn't it be Vanille Sublime? And Royal Ceylan? Um, use the French spelling for the name of a country which changed its name and ceased to be a British Colony in 1948, then present the first bottle to Kate Middleton? Why, to remind her of a simpler time when the sun never set on the British Empire? You'd think a company with a Royal Warrant would have a bit more tact. I could go on. Finally, getting back to the question which started this thread, which I've recently been pondering myself, I think we can safely answer: there aren't any.
Last edited by professor goggles; 11th July 2011 at 10:08 AM.
$8.95 back in the 70s equals to how much on this days?
Funny Creed is mentioned in the book War Paint about Helena Rubinstein and Elizabeth Arden. Seems Creed was making clothes in the early 1900's in London. Nothing about fragrance or barbering but making suits for men and women.
Yes, Creed PR represents the transposition of the house's genuine fame as tailors to the field of perfume, a business where they have either no history, or none of any significance either to the company itself or perfumery.
When Olivier Creed launched Creed as one of the first niche brands in the early Seventies he was riding on the wave of retro-fascination with Art Deco era scents (not dissimilar to the current enchantment with Victorian/Belle Epoque scents, cf. Grossmith etc.) and his firm recreated traditional styles: Royal English Leather, a leathery bersion of L'Origan, Tabarôme, a nod to classic Tobacco scents from Habanita to Tabac Blond, a number of classic hesperides and many more. These are not original, but excellent and high quality perfumes which I believe form the basis of Creed's reputation among male perfume aficionados.
With GIT in 1986 came a big break and move towards more modern aquatic styles using trendy 80s/90s synthetics: MI, SMW, Himalaya, then Original Vetiver & Santal etc. - though a few classics were still produced - Bois du Portugal, Neroli Sauvage, Royal Delight. Personally I have no love for MI and Co., though they are widely appreciated.
It seems to me that material quality is now declining rapidly in the older formulas, while new compositions are typical run-of-the mill niche following trends and probably more or less pre-formulated by the big four - with exceptions. Not an untypical development in the business.
Just curious as to the source of the 1975 date for Epicea?
I agree with all the_good_life has written. The only question with regard to the 'truth' of Creed's claims is as to whether, throughout their history, they actually did blend bespoke fragrances for some of their tailoring clients. My understanding is that they have confirmed that before Olivier Creed took over the firm, fragrance was a very small part of what they did (which was tailoring).
Last edited by StewartGallacher; 11th July 2011 at 02:43 PM.
My sales (UK only): http://www.basenotes.net/threads/389286-UK-only-sales
1975 is the date given by the Osmotheque in Paris, who are too serious to accept PR claptrap. That is also the date that used to be given on the cale.it website (Italian Creed distributors) for the "reformulation" of Royal Scottish Lavender (as in, they took an old lavender formula from a 19th century perfume handbook and dabbled with it).
Btw. I also doubt that Olivier Creed is a perfumer. I see him in the role of Serge Lutens or Kilian Hennessy, not Chris Sheldrake, i.e. creative direction, not actual formula creation.
We have all discussed that Luca Turin book a gazillion times before. Perhaps you didn't notice him complimenting several other Creeds on their quality of materials yet still dishing out 2-3 stars at most? There are many of Luca Turins 4-5* favorites that we can imperiously dismantle with scathing reviews yet I am sure you and him will gladly spend upwards of $100 on those frags because you like to wear them..and thats what counts the most, correct?
Being biased is quite big in academic circles and I should know - like you (assuming you are a real prof) I also hold a Ph.D and spent several years trying to publish papers in the most selective journals in my area and so I am quite familiar with this inbred ivory tower madness that takes place. A glaring welcoming toothy smile and big eye glasses don't impress me much.
It's nothing to be ashamed of, in any case. The creatives are often very well-versed in perfumery, but also bring other skills to bear.
I've heard speculation that Olivia may fill Olivier's shoes as the creative/perfumer/artistic director, with Erwin doing the rest. Who knows? In the world of Creed, truth and fantasy just seem to blend to the point where it's better not to even ask!
Considering the percentage of fabrication in Creed's PR, I wouldn't put it past them to fake such shots - that's the kind of skepticism that is borne from a company's systematic dishonesty about its past and its products. Contrary to the clear case of their non-existent pedigree as perfumers there is no evidence, however, on the question whether OC is a trained or self-taught perfumer or nothing of the sort. Are there pics of Lutens in front of a perfume organ?
I'll counter with a picture. Pierre Bourdon (on the left) and some "creative", working on an early version of Green Irish Tweed. It was a little clumpy, and needed more alcohol.
Those damn creatives! Always getting credit for making stuff, when everybody knows that they merely envision these things that other people actually make. (...or that still other people actually want.)
Take Chanel, of which six in their modest range garner 5 stars in The Guide. Many of the rest have four. Compare that to the Creeds, of which one in fifty perfumes they sell warrants four stars and not a single one has five. Many have one or two. Windsor is twice the price of the Chanel Exclusifs!
If I found them to be better than expected I would be the first to change my opinion, but of the many I've smelled since only one has appealed to me. Royal English Leather is actually a pretty good floral leather, though very similar to others, and considerably less refined. In Turinesque style I'll give it the two-word descriptor of "peach harness."
I'm not impressed by academic credentials. I'm not an academic. Professor Goggles is my cat's name. I don't think Turin is the voice of a perfume God, but his books have introduced me to some incredible perfumes that give me huge enjoyment which I would never have discovered otherwise. What I like most about Luca Turin is that he's extremely knowledgable in his field, without being snobbish or posh. It took him ages to find a journal who would publish his controversial theory of smell, which I would think gives you two something in common.
In his sideline as a perfume critic he casts a critical eye on an industry dominated by outright lies regarding luxury, natural materials, and authorship. His is an independent and refreshingly funny voice ringing out from a chorus of smooth-talking hyperbole. His and Tania's book illustrates that perfume or any criticism is political, working against the ideologies that make companies like Creed possible. So maybe he is a bit biased. I'm sorry if it bores you to sleep.
Last edited by professor goggles; 23rd August 2011 at 12:00 AM.
Hi, I visited The Calè shop in Milano, the italian distributor for Creed. I saw his private collection (of the owner). He has a loooot of vintage bottle, strange bottle (250 ml), after shave bal (white liquid) of Orange spice, a black matte bottle splash (120 ml) of Royal english leather and the vintage white box with 2 red crowns printed on.
I saw, with my eyes, the Creed's story!
Pics or it didn't happen.
Hmmm, one persons steps forward with accounts of "vintage bottle, strange bottle" of Creed yet photographs are forbidden? Out of all the vintage geeks in the world and especially on this forum with all the Creed lovers, this is the only example yet? I'm just a little bit skeptical.
Perhaps Creed's target is the American, Japanese, etc, market and people who collect Diana memorial plates and such.
The Royal English Leather described above sounds similar to this one:
What's the story behind this one, StewartGallacher?
It's not mine, I'm afraid. I'm sure another (highly knowledgeable) member determined that it's from the early 1980s...
Interesting to learn that Orange Spice used to be available as an aftershave balm.
Last edited by StewartGallacher; 9th May 2013 at 09:55 AM.
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