Code of Conduct
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 31 to 60 of 78
  1. #31

    Default Re: Basenotes involved in Capitalistic fragrance marketing???

    Quote Originally Posted by Heartwood View Post
    Actually, separating the two recognizes that men and women themselves are different.
    Foreign concept to many, right?!

    I like 'em better the way they are. It's already a bit surreal having a place for a bunch of dudes to get together to talk about cologne amongst themselves, with the ladies just a stone's throw away. Gotta keep that, I say.

  2. #32
    Surfacing's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    A Day Dream
    Posts
    4,490

    Default Re: Basenotes involved in Capitalistic fragrance marketing???

    I do not think that the male and female boards should be merged.

    My reasoning behind this is because on the male board, there are alot more threads. And once a thread is on the second page, it tends to be forgotten about ( with a few exceptions). Its hard to maintain quality threads and long threads like that where we learn more.

    I also do not think anyone who enjoys the female board should have to go through all the junk on the male board. And yes, there is alot of junk.
    Seeking: Bottles/decants : of Aramis New West, Alain Delon Iquitos, Feeling Man, Gucci pour Homme, Essence of John Galliano, Oxford & Cambridge, Azzaro pour Homme (vintage),...etc.

    Seeking decant/sample of PdE Ambre Russe, Jil Sander Feeling Man, Comme des Garcons 2 Man, Giorgio VIP, ....etc. I have samples to swap.

    More HERE
    Please PM me !

  3. #33

    Default Re: Basenotes involved in Capitalistic fragrance marketing???

    Quote Originally Posted by Sugandaraja View Post
    New idea - how about just having a "general fragrance discussion" for those who just want to talk fragrance, without aiming things at either gender, but leaving the male and female boards intact?

    I'd really love that kind of place; a neutral gathering place to chat about fragrance in general, without the whole man/woman/gender thing coming up. Right now the closest we have to that is the Fragrance Industry board ( which I daresay, has a generally more in-depth level of discourse than the other boards' typical fare ), but it would be cool to have a place where we can discuss actual fragrances, too.
    This was the idea for the Fragrance Industry Board, but I just couldn't think of a better name for it. I'm more than happy to rename, or create an alternative.
    Currently wearing: Gardénia by Chanel

  4. #34

    Default Re: Basenotes involved in Capitalistic fragrance marketing???

    If you go to fragrantica.com's non-gender boards you can see what the problem is, which is that it's almost all women. They usually don't say what the frag in question is in the title, so you have to click on the post to see that it's a women's frag. Bascially, if you don't separate, you get too little discussion of men's frags and too much of women's. I wear women's frags often, so I can go to MUA, the BN women's forum, or fragrantica for that. However, I want a place where I know almost all threads will be about men's or unisex frags so that I don't have to do too much searching around. So, it's more about ease of use than it is about marketing, at least for me.

  5. #35
    Moderator
    Sugandaraja's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Vancouver, BC
    Posts
    6,765

    Default Re: Basenotes involved in Capitalistic fragrance marketing???

    I'd love just a "General Fragrance Discussion" kind of place, a discuss-anything place for fragrance that wasn't segregated into anything specific, if that woud be possible and some other members supported it. That way everyone gets to keep their boards but there's also a place to address EVERYONE if there's no specific gender or category we're aiming for, just people wanting to talk about fragrance.

    Thanks very much for responding to my comment Grant!

  6. #36

    Default Re: Basenotes involved in Capitalistic fragrance marketing???

    OK, longer response now:

    Ten years ago, when the site started, the site was about men's fragrance and grooming. It was what I knew about, so that's what I made a website about. All the discussion was hosted at an email mailing list called eGroups, which got bought by Yahoo. We stayed there until about 2003, when I decided I would like to have the discussion hosted on the main site. At that time, we got the same amount of posts in a month, that we do in a day now.

    When we moved to a Bulletin Board system (like we're on now), There was a Mens Fragrance Board, a Mens Grooming Board, and an Off Topic board. The Market Place system was already hosted on the same bulletin board and had been for a year or so.

    * * *

    In 2004, I made the decision to downplay the 'grooming' side of things -as I'd lost interest -- and cover female fragrances too. Though the site was mainly men, we had a few hardcore ladies (hello Tigrushka et al) who used to come and 'hang out' here. Back then, if you wanted to discuss women's fragrances you had to either go to Make Up Alley - or - Perfume of Life (previously known as the Long Lost Perfume Chat Club, and also hosted at Yahoo). Basenotes had become known as the place for men to discuss fragrance, so just making the men's board 'all fragrances' would mean that the women's discussion would get lost, and they would go elsewhere.

    The boards generally worked fine, but it became apparent that some topic weren't gender related, and were about fragrance in general. To cover this, I opened the Fragrance Industry Board. However, this mainly got used for stuff specifically to do with the industry. In hindsight, it should have been called the General Fragrance Board (or something like that)

    * * *

    So the proposal - merge the male and female boards together.

    Merging the two together would mean that this combined fragrance board would be 70% men's fragrance and 30% womens fragrance. The female fragrance discussion would be pushed down and you will find this time in a year it will be 90% / 10%

    Contrary to popular belief - the boards aren't for the discussion of male and female fragrances (despite the names). Many people here wear fragrances from brands that don't specify pour homme or femme or wouldn't bat an eyelid at wearing a scent from the 'wrong' gender. The boards are for discussion from the viewpoint of a male or female, so if you're a guy who is interested in wearing Mitsouko and what to see what other guys think , you can.

    * * *

    We have a few issues with the boards at the moment.

    The first being that the Men's Fragrance Board is seen as a general dumping ground. People see it has the most threads/eyeballs and post in here regardless. Case in point. This thread has nothing to do with men's fragrance, yet it's been posted here (I'm not calling out the OP - this happens a lot, and it's just an example that's nearby). Similarly - many threads such as 'natural vs synthetic' etc aren't men's fragrance discussion either, and would more correctly be placed in the Fragrance Industry Discussion / General Fragrance Board.

    Maybe a solution is to hide the '234 viewing' and '234400 posts' statistics, so that when people come to post, they look at the board most suited. I (and mods) probably need to be more proactive in moving non men's threads.

    * * *

    Things to think about, while we are on the subject

    Is a merger a good idea, or will it change what people come to the boards for?

    Would a renamed 'Fragrance Industry' board, with active moderation in moving threads into it be beneficial?


    Interested in your thoughts
    Currently wearing: Gardénia by Chanel

  7. #37

    Default Re: Basenotes involved in Capitalistic fragrance marketing???

    Quote Originally Posted by Sugandaraja View Post
    I'd love just a "General Fragrance Discussion" kind of place, a discuss-anything place for fragrance that wasn't segregated into anything specific, if that woud be possible and some other members supported it. That way everyone gets to keep their boards but there's also a place to address EVERYONE if there's no specific gender or category we're aiming for, just people wanting to talk about fragrance.

    Thanks very much for responding to my comment Grant!
    Pleasure - I'm coming round to the thinking that renaming that board Fragrance Industry and General Fragrance Discussion
    Currently wearing: Gardénia by Chanel

  8. #38

    Default Re: Basenotes involved in Capitalistic fragrance marketing???

    Quote Originally Posted by Renato View Post
    Fragrances are genderless to a tiny minority of the population.

    Despite all the hype about them being genderless, check out the wardrobes of most people here. Most males, including those hyping the genderless proposition, have masculine scents or masculine scents and a limited range of feminine scents that either border on unisex, or have something supposedly artistic about them (i.e. not many Brittany Spears or Sara Jessica Parker type fragrances to be found among their collections).

    Very few are the males here who have half feminine and half masculine wardrobes.

    The forums would not function optimally or be as much liked and used as they are, if run according to minority opinions.
    Renato
    What Renato said!

  9. #39

    Default Re: Basenotes involved in Capitalistic fragrance marketing???

    Thank you, Grant, for the consideration of a new name for the general discussion category.

    I think that since scents these days are marketed with a gender in mind, it is easier to categorise according to the gender designated.

    I know many of us on this board don't care about this marketing, but it helps to organise the discussion of the various scents.

    As for me, an unabashed gender-bender for fragrance, I am against a merger. I think for the purposes of discussion, the gender classifications--relative as they are--are helpful.
    "No elegance is possible without it...perfume is a part of you." Gabrielle "Coco" Chanel
    Currently wearing: Poison by Christian Dior

  10. #40

    Default Re: Basenotes involved in Capitalistic fragrance marketing???

    Right, it's about focusing on frags marketed to men - that is what makes the men's forum unique, and if you change it, you will be just like MUA or Fragrantica's frag boards, which I rarely visit.

  11. #41
    timaru's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Berlin
    Posts
    2,482
    Blog Entries
    5

    Default Re: Basenotes involved in Capitalistic fragrance marketing???

    Great read Grant, albeit not meant as such.

    I agree that a mender is not a good idea,
    renaming the FI to something less "professional" might lower hesitations to go there and yes,
    moving threads should be increased!

    I dont know about hiding viewers/posts, though, after all for newcomers and lurkers that aren't as active as some other users it's still a reference where there's the most to browse through and which parts are more active than others.
    Smellin good

  12. #42

    Default Re: Basenotes involved in Capitalistic fragrance marketing???

    Gender separation has nothing to do with capitalism. Some of the most primative, pre-capitalist social structures have strict separation of gender. Now, if you want to have a discussion on gender, that's fine. Just don't confuse political structures and gender issues.

  13. #43

    Default Re: Basenotes involved in Capitalistic fragrance marketing???

    Quote Originally Posted by flashpoint321 View Post
    Gender separation has nothing to do with capitalism. Some of the most primative, pre-capitalist social structures have strict separation of gender. Now, if you want to have a discussion on gender, that's fine. Just don't confuse political structures and gender issues.
    it was supposed to be taken with a pinch of salt, it was a joke, see my explanation to jrd4t

  14. #44

    Default Re: Basenotes involved in Capitalistic fragrance marketing???

    Quote Originally Posted by jlouismi View Post
    it was supposed to be taken with a pinch of salt, it was a joke, see my explanation to jrd4t
    and in terms of capitalism, it was in reference to marketing, not gender seperation

  15. #45

    Default Re: Basenotes involved in Capitalistic fragrance marketing???

    I think I like the overflow of topics beyond simply men and fragrance in men's fragrance. I have posted in other forums like single note...you get no or little response. In the men's forum, people are happy to respond. I don't think most people go to any other topic.

  16. #46
    Dependent knit at nite's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    CA, Central Coast
    Posts
    4,965

    Default Re: Basenotes involved in Capitalistic fragrance marketing???

    Quote Originally Posted by flashpoint321 View Post
    I think I like the overflow of topics beyond simply men and fragrance in men's fragrance. I have posted in other forums like single note...you get no or little response. In the men's forum, people are happy to respond. I don't think most people go to any other topic.
    That's interesting- would it imply that a lot of members look at the men's forum only?
    Sync'in and Think'in in 2015!
    Currently wearing: Shalimar by Guerlain

  17. #47

    Default Re: Basenotes involved in Capitalistic fragrance marketing???

    Quote Originally Posted by knit_at_nite View Post
    That's interesting- would it imply that a lot of members look at the men's forum only?
    Yes - that tends to be the case, which is why about 20% of that board are posts that aren't specifically about men's fragrance. I'm about to shift them to the newly renamed Fragrance Industry and General Fragrance Discussion, so I'm expecting some umbrage
    Currently wearing: Gardénia by Chanel

  18. #48
    Dependent knit at nite's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    CA, Central Coast
    Posts
    4,965

    Default Re: Basenotes involved in Capitalistic fragrance marketing???

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Yes - that tends to be the case, which is why about 20% of that board are posts that aren't specifically about men's fragrance. I'm about to shift them to the newly renamed Fragrance Industry and General Fragrance Discussion, so I'm expecting some umbrage
    Quick work! Thanks Grant.
    Sync'in and Think'in in 2015!
    Currently wearing: Shalimar by Guerlain

  19. #49

    Default Re: Basenotes involved in Capitalistic fragrance marketing???

    I don't really consider myself old school when it comes to fragrance but I'm probably more old school that I thought.....It is very difficult for me to buy into this idea of fragrance being genderless!!! I can't see Women wearing Aramis, Polo, Drakkar, Armani Pour Homme or any of the powerhouse fragrances.....Lui, Hombre, Pour Homme, For Men, For Him, Hei.....Come on.....who are why trying to kid.....I'm fine with any direction that Basenotes takes.....I'm in the game and something like this is not a big issue with me.....I'm just more old school than I thought.....Well at 51 I guess that's ok.....Gary

  20. #50

    Default Re: Basenotes involved in Capitalistic fragrance marketing???

    From Grant/administator: "The boards are for discussion from the viewpoint of a male or female, so if you're a guy who is interested in wearing Mitsouko and what to see what other guys think , you can."

    I see there is a new attempt at keeping the topics pure for each category. So I understand the new general fragrance category. I am still confused about the men's/women's section. Grant seems to indicate it's not so much men's frags and women's frags, but a place for men or women to each talk about frags. Yet, even after the change I still see women posting in the men's room and vice versa. So either I misunderstood what Grant is saying or only some "purity" is being pursued. I tend to be a rule follower, but I first have to understand the rules.

  21. #51
    Lifelong Sniffaholic
    30 Roses's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    12,011
    Blog Entries
    7

    Default Re: Basenotes involved in Capitalistic fragrance marketing???

    I like having separate men's and women's boards, but I never hesitate to contribute to a thread in the men's area if I feel like I have something useful to add, and I would hope the men would feel the same about posting on the women's board.

  22. #52
    PaulSC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Posts
    1,194

    Default Re: Basenotes involved in Capitalistic fragrance marketing???

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Contrary to popular belief - the boards aren't for the discussion of male and female fragrances (despite the names). Many people here wear fragrances from brands that don't specify pour homme or femme or wouldn't bat an eyelid at wearing a scent from the 'wrong' gender. The boards are for discussion from the viewpoint of a male or female, so if you're a guy who is interested in wearing Mitsouko and what to see what other guys think , you can.
    Never mind "popular belief" -- the official board descriptions, which I always assumed you wrote, say exactly what you're denying here. Should I henceforth feel discouraged from posting in the women's forum?
    Spray it, don’t say it…
    WARDROBE

  23. #53
    PaulSC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Posts
    1,194

    Default Re: Basenotes involved in Capitalistic fragrance marketing???

    Quote Originally Posted by Heartwood View Post
    In looking at the Basenotes Forums main page, I see there are 249 men viewing the MFD and 48 women viewing the FFD.
    I can't find where statistics such as these are reported. I only see a total number of viewers for each forum, with no breakdown by gender.
    Spray it, don’t say it…
    WARDROBE

  24. #54
    gupts's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    S/E suburb
    Posts
    3,927

    Default Re: Basenotes involved in Capitalistic fragrance marketing???

    Just because of the dichotomy of the fragrance discussion board that ostensibly splits the debate on the basis of the sex a particular fragrance is being marketed toward, is not a reason enough to suggest that Basenotes is actually contributing towards 'capitalistic marketing'.

    Even though there are a large number of patrons who completely disregard with impunity, the boundaries of 'perfume marketing based on sex', there is an equally important group that does not transgress these boundaries. I think the separation of the fragrance discussion board gives us the liberty to choose and participate in discussions that we feel is pertinent to our interests.

    Personally I wear a lot of fragrances that are typically marketed towards women, yet I hardly ever visit the female discussion board to read or contribute towards any debate relating to that fragrance. More often than not, I am able to find relevant information on the Male Fragrance discussion board even for fragrances that are not marketed as 'male scents. Some may accuse that this may result in duplicity but then I feel the comments in the MfB are male centric and therefore more relevant for me.

    Even though I wear a lot of female fragrances, this group still is a minor part of my fragrance wardrobe. Typically I still largely wear scents marketed primarily towards men. Merging the board will mean that I'd have to work harder to look for threads that are aligned with my interests. Sometimes I do tend to scuttle towards the Female discussion board when I don't see anything of interest on the MfD (thanks to the endless Creed authenticity or Pure Malt super powers threads), I usually get out of there within a minute or so. It's not that the conversation there is not interesting. It's just that the conversation is not of 'my interest' as it is majorly bent towards female scents that I am not inclined towards.

  25. #55
    vita odorifera
    perfaddict's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Lagos
    Posts
    7,901
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: Basenotes involved in Capitalistic fragrance marketing???

    The mods really have their work cut out for them now. The creation of a General Discussion board may not stop general discussions still being posted here on the MFD board (cases in point - multiple threads on same topic, increasingly constant moving of threads, etc). Keeping track of said general discussions is only going to get a bit more confusing. I write this considering the business case of a decision point, not just the sentiment, especially when the two do not co-relate.

    It has been well said above that the ideal of true genderless-ness belongs to a minority, even here on BaseNotes, talk less of the fragrance-using world in general. A new male member or lurker will have to navigate between 2 boards for topics he would naturally have gravitated towards the MFD board for. Another question we need to consider is: would a new viewer (essential for the continued survival of BaseNotes) or even a new member immediately appreciate the difference between a general discussion and a specific male/female fragrance discussion and, therefore, know where to post?

    Removing the viewing statistics will not be a good business or forum-management decision as well. This is how the popularity of BaseNotes is determined by some, as well as estimating the response time and volume of any post. There must have been a good reason for setting the statistics up in the first place.

    I would say that things should be kept simple, leave the boards as they are. There will always be dissenting opinions (some very pertinent) but what seems to be working for the multitude of members needs not be "fixed".
    ointments and perfume delight the heart....

    #BBOG!
    Currently wearing: Royal Water by Creed

  26. #56

    Default Re: Basenotes involved in Capitalistic fragrance marketing???

    Quote Originally Posted by 30 Roses View Post
    I like having separate men's and women's boards, but I never hesitate to contribute to a thread in the men's area if I feel like I have something useful to add, and I would hope the men would feel the same about posting on the women's board.
    I feel the same it is great having both perspectives on fragrance, even though one can argue about fragrance not having gender I still believe that there are ones with more masculine smells than feminine. I will be honest I have unisex colognes in my collection, virgin island water, musc ravageur eventually, millesime imperial, and a few others but I do think there are ones that are too feminine for me to touch. Just my two scents , even though I do like angel for women.

  27. #57
    arwen_elf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    4,052

    Default Re: Basenotes involved in Capitalistic fragrance marketing???

    I like the boards just as they exist now. The guys have always made me feel welcome anyways. I think a General Fragrance Discussion board would not be very active.
    Evenstar

  28. #58
    Augusta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Budapest, Hungary
    Posts
    53

    Default Re: Basenotes involved in Capitalistic fragrance marketing???

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Contrary to popular belief - the boards aren't for the discussion of male and female fragrances (despite the names). (...) The boards are for discussion from the viewpoint of a male or female, so if you're a guy who is interested in wearing Mitsouko and what to see what other guys think , you can.
    I thought the men's forum was for discussing masculine scents and scents worn mostly by men. Now I'm confused. Does this mean women should stop posting here? Bad news for me, as I find myself hanging out in the men's section a lot more, simply because there are far more active threads (even this important thread was posted in the men's section, even though it concerns everybody!), and also because I wear/like a lot of unisex stuff that men tend to wear more often. I've always feared someone's going to tell me to mind my own business and get back to the women's section anyway, and now it looks like I really should.

  29. #59
    Heartwood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Posts
    2,315
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default Re: Basenotes involved in Capitalistic fragrance marketing???

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigsly View Post
    Right, it's about focusing on frags marketed to men - that is what makes the men's forum unique, and if you change it, you will be just like MUA or Fragrantica's frag boards, which I rarely visit.
    No.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigsly View Post
    If you go to fragrantica.com's non-gender boards you can see what the problem is, which is that it's almost all women. They usually don't say what the frag in question is in the title, so you have to click on the post to see that it's a women's frag. Bascially, if you don't separate, you get too little discussion of men's frags and too much of women's.
    No.

    This:
    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Merging the two together would mean that this combined fragrance board would be 70% men's fragrance and 30% womens fragrance. The female fragrance discussion would be pushed down and you will find this time in a year it will be 90% / 10%
    I appreciate that you're in favor of maintaining separate boards, but the women here aren't going to pull off a David on the MFD's Goliath. Basenotes won't become Fragrantica or MUA. Okay? It just won't. What will happen if we merge is that the women here will lose the place we've called our own, and we'll try to reestablish that elsewhere.

    I'm very much in favor of a discussion board aimed at mixed gender discussion of fragrances. I'd even like this to be separate from the Industry discussion, because I think that board is well-established for talking about perfumers, new releases, scientific studies, and the business of fragrance. AromiErotici's thread about "Fragrance influence in the workplace" is definitely a general topic well suited to both male and female readers/posters, but misses the mark as far as "Industry" goes, imo. So maybe a new General Fragrance Discussion instead of Industry and GFD combined?

    One thing I really don't want to see is GFD threads devolving into arguments about whether fragrances are all unisex or not. It almost always is a deviation from the original thread topic, with particular members frequently voicing the same material over and over. This, like Creed wars, is another reason why I avoid the MFD. Maybe there should be a sticky thread at the top of the forum, "The gender of scents: marketing hype or clearly different?" and let those who are interested in the subject battle it out endlessly in their own dedicated thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulSC View Post
    Never mind "popular belief" -- the official board descriptions, which I always assumed you wrote, say exactly what you're denying here. Should I henceforth feel discouraged from posting in the women's forum?
    Of course not, Paul! If you're seeking a female opinion on a matter, please join us on the FFD. If you want to address everyone, consider the new GFD. Perhaps the board descriptions could be better worded (suggestions?), but I see what Grant wanted to accomplish back in 2004-- a place for women to gather and talk amongst themselves about subjects that interest the female point of view. I very much don't want to see this swallowed up by the MFD.

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulSC View Post
    I can't find where statistics such as these are reported. I only see a total number of viewers for each forum, with no breakdown by gender.
    I think it is reasonable to assume that the preponderance of viewers of the MFD are male, and the FFD female. I think this assumption is borne out by the percentages of men vs women posting in each forum, by which I mean most all of the posts in the MFD are by men, and the FFD by women, though I believe the FFD sees more crossover percentage-wise because it is a smaller forum (say, 5 men posting among 50 women, versus 5 women posting among 200 men).
    Last edited by Heartwood; 3rd October 2010 at 07:36 AM.
    Eddie: Sweetie, what are you drinking?
    Patsy: Oh, this? Chanel No. 5.
    -- Absolutely Fabulous

  30. #60

    Default Re: Basenotes involved in Capitalistic fragrance marketing???

    I still think it would be cleaner and less confusing to have one general fragrance discussion board. People can always designate gender in the thread titles if they wish, as they do now (for example, "Guys, what do you think about ______?" or "Ladies, I need your advice about ______.").

    And as someone else mentioned, the two SotD threads differ in character, even though there is crossover, so we could continue doing the male/female thing with those.

    FWIW, I think combining "Fragrance Industry" with "General Fragrance Discussion" could be confusing. We'll see, I guess. No umbrage from me, Grant! :-)
    Last edited by Haunani; 3rd October 2010 at 07:28 AM.

Similar Threads

  1. Is this the future of fragrance marketing?
    By Midiguru in forum General Fragrance Discussion
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 1st June 2010, 09:43 PM
  2. Is this the future of fragrance marketing?
    By Midiguru in forum Male Fragrance Discussion
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 1st June 2010, 04:24 PM
  3. (SUCCESS!) Brainstorming marketing ideas for a fragrance vendor rep
    By MFfan310 in forum General Fragrance Discussion
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 31st March 2010, 08:39 PM
  4. Fragrance Branding or Marketing
    By gammergq in forum Just Starting Out
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 8th December 2007, 04:35 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  



Loving perfume on the Internet since 2000